می بخور، منبر بسوزان - مردم آزاری نکن

Mrs. Rusta

 just to add to your question of HOW....

Back in 82  the communist party was ahead of cdp (christian democrats)in Italy as far as the numbers of eligible voters and the cpi claim was that if the votes are not rigged ITALIA will become......even they were tied to the pope's shooting .

 guess what ? with in 30 days there were articles after articles that Mr. Berlinguer the head of the Italian communist party was share holders in more than 30 European countries and owned 12 companies himself with PROOF...

and the party pulled out of election over night.     Maziar

Rea jan

اینکه، آن  پل پات جد و آباد به خطا، سوسیالیست نبوده مثل روز برای من و شما روشن است . اما عزیز من، برای مردم عادی و همچنین تاریخ بشریت این مرتیکه الدنگ ( پل پات) بلا نسبت، بلا نسبت، رید به سنت ما ، حالا حالا باید توضیح داد که بابا "روایت دموکراتیک از سوسیالیسم" چیز دیگری است.

  اما پرسش اساسی تر این است که آیا درون خود سوسیالیسم ، آیا جا برای تعبیر و روایات غیر دموکراتیک  وجود دارد یا نه؟ به تعبیر بسیاری از سوسیالیستهای پر سواد تر از من ، پاسخ به این پرسش متاسفانه مثبت است ! یعنی چه ؟ یعنی اینکه سوسیالسیم دو روح دارد ، یک روح مثبت ، یک  روح  منفی. باورت نمیشه و  شاید فکر کنی  هنوز از شب قبل مستم ( که مقدار خفیفی  هستم ) ولی وقت کردی این

مقاله ضمیمه را بخوان، و دردی بفرست به روح پاک استاد هل دراپر، زت زیاد، هوشنگ

Two souls of Socialism

//www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1966/twosouls/index.htm 

H.Targol

I also beg to differ.

Pol Pot wasn't a socialist, full stop.

Neither is S. Žižek. Tell the truth, hate the guy. 

Champain

If not too thick, one can easily overdose on bubbles and dreadful nouveaux bores' flatulant babbling. Gtaad is hardly exclusive, just boring, conformist and  insecure.

----

Hoshang - 1.hair's dog - stiff bloody mary with celery salt, lemon juice, Worcestershire sauce and heaps of tabasco

2.  Hitchens is still a babe. I just love what he's been doing to the Vatican...! If most religious institutions aren't the ultimate in criminal  "champagne socialism"....

"The paradox of freedom: sometimes people freely choose not to be free."

Dear Hoshang

Go see Shazdeh, i believe he has some of those new Islamists "light beers" still hidden in his refrigerator :)

All you said about Rouzbeh and Siamak and some others, we already know all this and it has been already discussed here in this same Iranian.com.

But you are right, I have never heard that Kianoury was advocating the Armed Struggle during his whole life as a Toudehy leader.

Nevertheless, as I already said, this topic is too sensitive for me and I would rather to stop it here.

Have a good beer...

But beer isn't good for the headache!

Well, it seems I struck a familiar chord!

Gucci, Maxmara, Kaviar or  Gstaad (the most exclusive Swiss ski resort) Marxists (I know a family of Iranian Marxists who regularly take their skiing holidays there), the point I wished our socialist experts could kindly expand on is how one can reconsile one's subscription to Marxist/Socialist doctrine with their excessive appetite for capitalist products and services?

Mr Targol we have more than one or two Hitchins in our midst and no Mr Puck they are much more sophisticated than Mr Ghotbi and Co. In fact a number of them come from the same circle which at one time had Mr Targol's Tudehi idol, the late Morteza Keyvan, as a regular member. Sadly Keyvan did not live to witness how his former comrades hit the big time under the Shah's drive to modernize Iran and fortunately his name remained untarnished.

But my question remains standing: how can our champaign socialists justify their extravangant life styles?

ps - Mehman jaan I will gladly cook you an Aash with yek-man-roghan-roosh any time my dear (no pun intended) :)

FR

Souri jan, you're not helping my hangover!

Obviously your some 30 years' old biase is too strong to even merit a careful reading of two paragraphs.

Not sure where you get this notion of "Killing the people for politics," but unlike me and you people in Kurdestan for the past 31 years have not, do not and will not have the luxury of NOT BEING KILLED BY ARMED FORCES OF ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

HENCE; SELF-DEFENSE. Now you could relate to that can't you. If someone attacks your house, kills your elatives, what will you do? Just sit back and cry, or hit back and scream? Again the option of self-defense is a healthy strategum.

While many Tudeh members were escaping Iran, through Kurdestan they were incredibly happy to be guests of Komala, especially since we didn't hold up their working with mullahs against them, but have always hoped they would learn from their mistakes.

I'm afraid your knoweledge of history of armed struggle debate within Tudeh is not as comprehensive as might think.

Way back in the 40's and 50's Tudeh has a military wing, folks like  Col.Siamak, and others, and actually UNLIKE THE LEADERSHIP OF THE PARTY, THE OFFICERS WERE STAUNCHLY INDEPENDENT MINDED. Read Khosro Rozbeh last defense : Eta'at Korkoraneh, (Blind Onbedience), but that's not all.

Back in the 60's before the Sino-Soviet split even Kianory was in favour of Armed Struggel, but that's not all.

Even during IR and Tudeh's playing up with mullahs and teaching them all their trick from K.G.B. vault! there were members within the Tudeh leadership that were opposed to any cooperation with mullahs but never had the chance to dominate the discussion.

So, you and I could sit back in our leisure in Californian and Canada and think whatever we wish, the fact of the matter is that Iranian Kurdistan has been militarily occupied for the past 31 years, becuase Kurdistan WAS THE ONLY AREA THAT REFUSED TO SUCCUMB TO MULLAHS, and as natural as breathinga the air, self defense is a human reaction to repression and armed onslught. 

If you had the slightest knwoledge of CPI's policy towards self-determination you would have never distorted it to "seperation from Iran," but unfortuantely you dont!

Now, I gotta get a beer to stop this headache! 

Oh, workers of the world where are you , when I  need you?!?!?

Champaing Socialists vs. Ashtray Intellectuals

Ms Rusta,

Your comment made me smile. I remember when we were student back in 80-82 in France, we were used to joke about ourselves, calling ourselves the Ashtray Intellectuals (Les intellos du cendrier).

That was referring to the gathering in a small room, smoking and discussing about the politics and how we would change the future!

LOL.....

Good memories of youth

سوسیالیست‌های شامپاین خور

هوشنگ،

نظر فرح روستا بیشتر متوجه دار و دسته فرح پهلوی و نامزد سابق او قطبی است

My heart is true as steel.

Hoshang khan

As I have previously mentioned, I am an old fashion old lady, which now have kissed all those studying/discussion about the armed struggling.

As for Komala (Koumleh) and Pishmargian, I knew them some 30 years ago, as a Toudeh sympathizer. Apparently they did not change one iota of their vision.

This is what I had categorized as the "more radical left" in my comment (Niloofar's blog). Actually I was referring to you, in that post.

To be honest, I think I have nothing to add to what I have already said about Armed Struggling. Killing the people for politics, has never been  approved neither, by true socialists.
That's why Toudeh always disagreed with those other left parties and that's why Toudeh party has been called "khianat kaar or Sazesh kaar" because it never approved "terror".

I don't approve Komala's strategy . Neither do I agree with the separation of Kurdistan from the land of Iran. Sorry, I am not a radical communist.

No more comment :)

Ms.Rusta I've seen, know and read many good articles from

many a "Gucci" socialists. The most outstanding one was our erstwhile Comrade Christopher Hitchens ( before he switched sides, god could he write, I'll still give a body part if I could write like that!!!!)

I'm sure ( I hope) our fecund Iranian diaspora has at least one or two like him. As they say it takes all kinds of Lefties to really mess up the  working class, opps, I meant, to liberate the working class.

P.S. Working class doesn't need anyone to liberate it, wink, wink!!! 

Workers of the World Unite, and help Hoshang get rid of his hangover!!! 

Champaign Socialists

I go for that! Mrs Rusta plz write Mehman's name in your list of Champaign Socialist Party (pun intended)!

Just tell me when and where is the party you want to give. I am sure your Ashpazi is excellent! Looking forward to be present at your Champaign Party.

.

PS: Champaign without Khaviar is like loubia polo without loubia. Let me try for the second time in my life Khaviar in your royal champaign party, first time was in prince RedWine's ziafat. 

How about Champaign Socialists?

Or is it Max Mara Marxists? We had, and still have plenty of them around in Iranian circles. The so called socialist shick! Can our experts enlighten us please?

FR

Rea jan, I beg to differ

Just keep in mind the incredibly vast, different, range of people who claim to be "socialist," you have people from Pol Pot to Adorno, all calling themselves Lefties!

Gramsci has an excellent line on religion and its intrepetations, I don't recall the exact quote  right now but it goes something like this : There are as many intrepetations of a religion as there are belivers," simply meaning there's no one solid take on any religion.

While socialism is not a religion ( or hopefully shall not be considered as such) there are as many schools of thought in it as there are individulas calling themselves Lefties!

Check out Raymond Williams and his take on " Many Roads to Socialism," unlike me he was an original genuis.

Puck & Souri

Got rid of grandchildren yesterday noon, just have to get rid of, get over this hangover and I 'll be fine. 

Souri khanom you are incorrect. CPI and its Kurdestan Organization popularly know as Komala, actually have a very sophiscticated policy on Armed Struggle, in order not to cause any more misintrepretations I'm going to post two entire paragraphs from one of Komala's documents, you be the judge.

" Armed Struggle

It's an inalieanable right of people in Kurdistan to confront central government's onslaught through various forms, including armed resistance. Having armed themselves against a regime that deals with them through oppression and unrestrained violence, armed struggle is a from of resistance that people have chosen as various points. Komala has always strived to also organize this aspect of resistance as a part of the strategy for a revolutionary movement in Kurdistan, thus utilizing armed struggle in the service of achieving a people's victory, and protecting their rights and liberties. Such principled orientation shall be maintained.

The Peshmerg force operates as the armed wing of a political party, and its purpose and content is one and the same as other aspects of Komola's actvities. Armed struggle is part and parcel of Komala's strategy for the movement in Kurdistan. For this reason, at the current stage the potential capacity of this force shall be maintained and augmented. The issue of at what point, in what scale, and in which location of Kurdistan how this force chooses to organize its armed action is a concrete matter, stemming from our concrete analysis of the conrete situation is each stage. Our prirority at the moment is creation of a social space in which workers and oppresed people of Kurdistan could get together and assemble in various civil formations, institutions, and organizations, and utilizing such organs for improvement of their everyday lives, and tools in struggle against the Islamic Republic. Our goal is for the masses to believe in their own power of consciousness, unity, and direct action, at work and at home. Our armed struggle shall be in the service of accelerating this process and facilitating victory" (Report to 12th Congress of Komala July 2006).

As you could see, this is a bit more nuanced than your average "urban gurrilla" operations! Here we have armed struggle as a component to WORKING CLASS SELF ORGANIZATION, as a contingency, not a fetish. 

H. Targol

There is not democratic socialism and/or authoritarian socialism.

There is either socialism or communism. Either or. 

Thank you Houshang

And how are you spending your weekend? Babysitting : At home and at IC.

My heart is true as steel.

Hoshang, this is were we differ

"this formation that not only has organized two ( mind you not just one,
but two) General Strike in Kurdestan, has had a continuos tradition and
capacityof Armed Struggle against IR for the past 31 years, is
thoroughly non-sectarain and strongly belives in...."

The Armed Struggle factor is what I don't agree with. I had already noticed this when I was reading your comments in that other blog by Niloofar, but wasn't sure about that until I read your statement today.

I'm radically against any Armed Struggle as a strategy. A 31 years armed struggling, is already a sing of defeat!

We may consider  the Armed Struggle as a short-term tactic (like during the time of an Armed Revolution) but subscribing to a strategy of Armed Struggle and terror is completely against the  Socialism ideology.

It is this kind of theory and strategy which lead to Maoism and Pol Pot-ism. Sorry!

Respects;

Shazdeh keep in mind you enjoying your "weekend," two days off

thanks to disgusting socialism, and it's not just establishing of 40 hours of week as an standard, but many other social priviliges and rights that would not have been possible without the world wide socialist movement.

As far as "marxism-leninism," its all a myth. Marx did say on his death-bed that he was not a "Marxist," all that's worth from his ideas is his critique of capitalism, three volumes of Das Kapital, and the way world economy is behaving looks like everyone could use reading that book at least once! Same thing with Lenin, until he was alive not a single person uttered the word Leninism, actaully on the eve of October Revolution every single member of the central comiitttee was opposed to his views, none were "leninist" then. Right after his death his ideas are reduced and distorted as a dogma. Lenin's most outsatnding acheivement was HIS LACK OF DOGMA, INSISTENCE ON CONCRETE ANALYSIS OF THE CONCERET SITUATION. Did he made mistakes? yes. Was he an absolute genius? yes. So Mrax and Lenin and whoever are relevant as far as they have something to teach us, other than that they become mythical non-sense.

Again, this whole notion of dictatorship of the polotarai ( hope you smiled with that typo, this discussion is getting a bit too serious, moment, moment, I'm talking to my favorite Shazde!) Marx's example is the Roman Dictator that was actually ELECTED by the pleb, so in the Roman notion of Dictator, the dictator get his dictat from the people, he's elected to carry out that public dictate ( I'm not making this up, check out  Agamben or Habermas on Roman Law and they point out the same thing, I should have written: that's where I read this explanation!)

But, you are 100% on Romania, Albania, Cambodia, and tavabin,....

One last point, though you very correct on pointing out grouplets with membership of less than one's fingers, or quivelant to one's fingers! not all Left formation in Iran are like that, there are actually a handful of execptions , one that I'll leave you with is this formation that not only has organized two ( mind you not just one, but two) General Strike in Kurdestan, has had a continuos tradition and capacityof Armed Struggle against IR for the past 31 years, is thoroughly non-sectarain and strongly belives in,  and practices UNCONDITIONAL POLITICAL FREEDOM.

www.cpiran.org

Democratic socialism good, authoritarian socialism bad!( that's as simple as it gets)

Keep it up, and kick those Stalinist asses!!!

Moment, moment , I almost  forgot, while in San Fransisco don't forget to read comrade Wilhelm Reich! I think he was greatly influenced by your take on San Fransisco, or vis-versa ( you by his ideas on...)!!!

We must agree to disagree dear Shazdeh :)

And I don't mind it. As long as we are respectful to each other, we can disagree on many things. Indeed we actually do :)

1) About the Central Committee:

You are smart and informed enough to know that any system would need a Central committee. It just can't work in any other way. Be it the  Monarch, or  Congress or any other institution, but in any system you need a top head who govern.

2) As you mentioned yourself previously, Communism has been founded on the base of Marxism. So it is absolutely normal to assume that the Proletariat would be the vanguard and the central (brain ?) of that system. As the Persian poet said: Shir e bi yaal o dom o ashkam ke did? The whole idea of Marxism is based on the power of the proletariat as the motor of the Socialism. So as Lenin said : che bayad kard?

3) At the end I must say: Not so fast!

You said :

" So those geniuses, who knew nothing about the human nature and the human history, turned their utopia into the worst of worst dictatorships, by subjecting everyone to the wishes of a brutal centralized leadership..."

What makes you think that those "geniuses" didn't know anything about the human's nature and history ?

I don't know who you have in mind exactly, but if you read all those "geniuses" works (books and other writing) , you will sure agree with me that they were the real "geniuses" very knowledgeable in History and Philosophy, even in Physics and Mathematics.....etc etc.

Don't judge a book by its cover, dear.

Let's give the credit where it is due! (and I don't talk about Mao and Co)

Ceauşescu, did lots of wrong , he was a savage dictator.....but as a result, those poor Romanians,  are the most intelligent people I have ever met as a nation! They have  very big capacities, they are smart, most of the educated ones speak two/three foreign languages, they are so knowledgeable in Philosophy and History and Social Sciences...(and were the bests at sports)....etc etc.

Of course I wouldn't give a minute of my freedom and comfort here in the West, to live under such dictatorship. Life is too short !

Shazdeh Jaan - Right on the money

"...they are now only hiring ex-communists...look around and read a bit, then you will know what I am talking about."

How true...IR's cyber army and apologists on this site, including our one eyed sister, are perfect examples.   

سوری خانم: اشکال اصلی‌ در "دیکتاتوری پرولتاریا" است

The Dictatorship of Proletariat (DP) is the cornerstone of Marxist-Leninist ideology, and the source of all their troubles.

How can you bring peace and humanity to a society which is under the Absolute Rule of a non-descript semi-god called the Proletariat?

Their solution was that the Party would be the vanguard and the brain of the DP, with the Central Committee as the brain of the Party and the Glorious Leader as the brain of C.C.

So those geniuses, who knew nothing about the human nature and the human history, turned their utopia into the worst of worst dictatorships, by subjecting everyone to the wishes of a brutal centralized leadership.

It is not by chance and bad luck that all the truly Socialist countries turned into disastrous and murderous dictatorships ... it was embedded in their design!

Without freedom of speech, people become brainwashed into craziness. Without freedom of ownership, people become slaves to the government. Without democratic elections, governments become the breeding grounds for power hungry and inhuman monsters.

Welcome to the Animal Farm!

Dears Mehman, Rea, Farah and Angel

Thanks for your kind notes.

You are right about the liberal social ideas and actions of the 20th century which have been a cornerstone of the modern West, since the 18th century. However, please note that the discussion here is about the Disgusting type of Socialism, exampled by the likes of USSR, N. Korea, Romania, Albania, Cambodia, etc.

Those truly disgusting Socialists and Communists had utter disdain for the western Social Democracy, as very early on noted in all Lenin's writings. For them Social Democracy was an ally of capitalism and even worse, which had to be destroyed for the Dictatorship of Proletariat (i.e. Rule of Thugs) to prevail.

Maybe not related, but good to know anyway :)

"After the first stroke, Lenin dictated government papers to Nadezhda; among them was Lenin's Testament (changing the structure of the soviets), partly inspired by the 1922 Georgian AffairJosef Stalin, Grigory Zinoviev, Lev Kamenev, Nikolai Bukharin, and Leon Trotsky.
About the Communist Party's General Secretary (since 1922), Josef
Stalin, Lenin reported that the "unlimited authority" concentrated in
him was unacceptable, and suggested that "comrades think about a way of removing Stalin from that post." His phrasing, (Russian cultural assimilation of constituent USSR republics), and it criticized high-rank Communists, including "Сталин слишком груб", implies “personal rudeness, unnecessary roughness, lack of finesse”, flaws "intolerable in a Secretary-General".

At Lenin's death, Nadezhda mailed his testament to the central
committee, to be read aloud to the 13th Party Congress in May 1924.
However, to remain in power, the ruling troika — Stalin, Kamenev, Zinoviev — suppressed Lenin's Testament; it was not published until 1925, in the United States, by the American intellectual Max Eastman. In that year, Trotsky published an article minimizing the importance of Lenin's Testament, saying that Lenin's notes should not be perceived as a will, that it had been neither concealed, nor violated;[103] yet he did invoke it in later anti-Stalin polemics."

link: wikipedia, lenin

My point from posting this text above, is just to mention that even the greatest humanist ideology can fall in the hands of totalitarian Men and end up to be a disaster for the people.

The real problem of the humanity is not the "ISM" in my opinion. The real problem is the " Power".

There's something strange about this!

All disasters of the humanity happened because of the love of human being for the Power. Once they have it, they don't want to give it up!

It will take a long while for a politician to be detached from his human instinct and leaves the pride and the pleasure of dominating others.

Many revolutionist, were good at first, then after they succeed to convince the people and reached to the position of power, they didn't want to loose that position.

When I was a child, I have seen an interesting movie casting by Marlon Brando, about Zapata, the Mexican rebellious (1910).

Of course that was an American movie :)

But it shows how people may change when they move from one side of the bench to the other side!

Cheers,

BTW: Mehman had a very good point here. You should listen to him.

Shazdeh

I love the hard-hitting humour in all your blogs...;)

Too right! That's one of the reasons I never go the whole hog with ideologies. ... They just end up in totalitarian extremism...(However, one must bear in mind, that I can post this under  relatively privileged circumstances....)

And the Islamist Commies are just absolutely fundaMental insane, illiterate , idiotic lunatics (actually words fail me) ....

However there are a  number of aspects of some "socialist" "systems" which are quite laudable, which also include civil liberties, civil societies etc. for which I'm rather grateful and I admire as in e.g. Norway, Kerala etc.....

Uxbridge Urban Dictionary:

Hamas - What Geordies use to bang nails in.

Nilufar al-Farsi: National Socialism is of course your specialty

Do you dare give credit for what Germany is today, to the Nazi party of National Socialism? Are you that ignorant and criminally inclined to openly advocate the "benefits of Nazism"?

Truly, this subject should be near and dear to your heart, as you seem to be 100% behind the new National-Socialist Islamist of Iran ... comrade Ahmadi Nezhad.

I have not forgotten Hitler, but you and your West hating comrades seem to have not forgotten your early love for him either! Remember POLAND.

پندارخیک

Again, we are talking Disgusting Socialism here! That is Marxist-Leninist-Maoist crap ... currently seeking service to their fellow anti-West Islamists.

I have read more books on your communist crap-filled ideology, including its hellish aftermath wherever it succeeded, than you have had breakfasts ... comrade! Now go and read the minutes of the 20th congress of the glorious Communist Party of USSR.

Golani: get your head out of the sand and smell the RED roses

Yes, some of the "credit" for the 1979 revolting ANGHOLLAB must go to communists like yourself!

Your 100 groups of communists (each with 6 members), including your tiny but so haugtily named Communist Party of Iran (total BS name for a dozen booze junkies with no labor movement connection) all became servant to the Mullahs, because of your total hatred towards the liberal West and your total submission to the communist regimes of Russia, Albania or N. Korea, WHO WERE PAYING YOUR BOOZE BILLS!

With all due respect Shazdeh

This blog must've been written in a hurry, things got mixed up. 

Be it Khamenei or Enver H., two sides of the same totalitarian coin. God, if there is any, is on neither side, nothing to do with.

Shazde don't waste your time on "yek-shabeh" experts

When one cannot put forward a solid argument, one hides behind the "go-learn-more" shield. What our Sock puppet (SP) and a few others miss is that socialism, like any other ism has its own shades including Euro-socialism. The socialism of Tony Blair, for instance, was radically  different from the socialism of his predecessors from the same party. Incidentally Shaban Jafari was much more of a socialist than Firooz and Eskandari put together.

FR