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Q

I'm sure by now, you know that I believe it is up to Iranians (whether in Iran or abroad) to decide the fate of Iran. I really don't trust the intervention of foreign countries because they never do it without strings attached.

All I have to do is look at my native country to see the mess that foreign intervention caused. All that oil became our curse.

As always, I do my best to listen to both sides of the issue in order to analyze the information provided. Always taking into account whom and/or what is the source of information. I refuse to follow blindly as I did in my youth. In this manner I intend to develop my own views on all things Iranian.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to post such a well thought out and detailed response for me.

peace

Q

My apologies......

I will respond to your kind comment to me soon.

At the moment, I am working 12 hour days. Good thing that I love my job.

I also want to read David ET new article but hopefully, I will join y'll there too.

peace...........

Natalia,

This is directly related.

Foreign governments can provide the funding and the intelligence, but rarely do they have the expertise or the personnel to do their own foot work. For that, they require natives of the country who are willing to be bribed, coerced or otherwise have common cause with them. Depending on your point of view, these natives are called "traitors", "informants", or "freedom fighters". The labels are meaningless. The important point is that they are doing the work that someone else needs done for their own purposes.

The financers control the overall objective and can tell the people at the bottom anything those people want or need to hear to have them cooperate.

For example, the notorious Neocon Michal Ledeen, part of the gang that sold Ahmad Chalebi as an "expert" and "liberator" of Iraq was very close to accomplishing the same thing with Iran. Bad circumstances with the Iraq war and other resource strains combined with Bushies being kicked out of office put a (Temporary) stop to his activities.

But before that he had managed to tell a juicy story to every "faction." To the Monarchists he had said that the post-invasion Iran should be open to a constitutional Monarchy system. He was supporting the MEK (who have their own ideas of who should rule Iran) at the same time as pushing a "federal" plan to gain the support of the racial minorities in Baloochestan, Azerbaijan, Kurdestan and Khuzestan.

In reality all these groups were pawns of a game to "overthrow" the IRI in a cheap way (so that he can sell the idea it to the White House). Any and all fairy tales he might hvae told them would not have survived the first bullet being fired in the field. Some of these people were undoubtedly aware of his plans, but they were either too ignorant or too arrogant to realize that they were being used as pawns. Nobody will spend $Billions because they like your looks. These idiots thought they were going to "fool" America into doing their dirty work for them, and then right after boot America out of Iran.

There is no trust in an unequal relationship, such as the one between fringe groups of aging Iranians versus the government and the intelligent services of a US, UK or Israel.

That's why the only moral position for any Iranian who calls themselves patriotic is to reject any kind of "support" from foreign governments. Indeed the REAL social movements inside of Iran have repeatedly rejected such offers and has painstakingly explained that the so-called "moral and financial support" from foreign governments actually hurts their ultimate cause and destroys their credibility.

But people like Fred are not interested. They are convinced THEY know better and are willing to act on behalf of a mythical group of their supporters inside Iran.

This is why, I believe, the litmus test for any Iranian activist should be are they willing to accept foreign assistance to compensate for the lack of support that they have inside Iran (remember that if there was any support, this discussion would be moot and no handouts from foreign governments would be necessary).

If a movement (like the 1 Million signatures) or a leader like Shirin Ebadi who has significant credibility emerges from INSIDE Iran, then, a true democracy activist would support it. The problem for people like Fred (and to a lesser extenct DK) is that these creadible native movements simply aren't as extreme in their demands as Fred would like, so therefore they are useless... and that's why he's fishing in Washington, London and Amsterdam for "moral support" in the form of hard currency hand-outs. And he has the nerve to think anybody will give him the time of day.

Darius:

If I had a quarter of the money of all these channels VOA, Radio Farda, Radio Zamaneh or even Iranian.com which I don't.

That's what they all say. I sincerely doubt you could have done much better given the enormous resources and the psychological operation expertiese that these entities have had. (I assume Iranian.com, a website run by one man, saturated with small business ads and a donation button, was a JOKE on your part)

Similar operations succeeded beautifully in Lebanon, Ukraine and Georgia. True, it's possible that all these people were simply missing YOUR wonderful mental strategies. That if you had some kind of a director position, it would have been all over by now. Yes, I will go along on your "modest" self-assessment.

But it's much more plausible that people in Iran simply didn't trust them or their message.

MON Q ;0)

My Dear Fellow,

If I had a quarter of the money of all these channels VOA, Radio Farda, Radio Zamaneh or even Iranian.com which I don't. I would have put up such a propaganda machine that that IRI would be in great trouble by now from the inside WITHOUT the slightest foreign intervention (be it military or moral).

Unfortunately for me but Fortunately for you, I don't ...

So All I will do is Repeat General De Gaulle:

VIVE LA RESISTANCE !

How interesting.......

I clearly thought that this thread was about certain alleged activities of a foreign government.

Apparently, I was incorrect. It is about the analyzing of Monsieur Kadivar's character and life.

:o)

That's exactly what I expected....

first to Fred: As usual what you say is completely meaningless as your rant is literally devoid of even the most insignificant of points.

to Darius:
I don't think your diatribe is worth a response.

I'm sensing a pattern of things you say you won't do, but you end up doing at the end. You really need to think about what you really want to be about in all aspects of your life.

As If I cared for Rajavi and Co. What do I care what becomes of them ?
As if that was the question or even a question raised in my post. Nice diversion.

excuses on Ahmadinejad and his neo nazi brothers
Just as I suspected, you are not willing to hold anybody else to the same standard. Only the Iranian leader. It must be an inferiority and "farhang-parasti" complex. That's fine, I got your position on this issue.

Most of what you say is completely irrelevent to the main point that: You are willing to accept $$$ not just from Western governments (supposedly altruistic in promoting democracy) but also from Al Qaeda, White Supremacists, Israel and Arabs. That's the main issue and you have made that clear. Your answer is this:

YOU CALL IT FOREIGN INTERVENTION, I CALL IT EMPOWERING THE PEOPLE TOWARDS A GIVEN GOAL: DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM !

Unfortunately this is how logic works. You can't say "I will accept money from ANY body" and then wimp out on the consequences.

You can swear up and down all you want with the same old tired points: Ahmadinejad bad, mullah's bad, IRI bad... etc. etc.

Saying these things over and over again probably makes you feel better and more secure to just point fingers and not to have to address your own morality. I have no problem with it, except to point out that you are sidestepping the main issue of this discussion (for good reason).

Only Someone Like Mr Q .................

Can defend a regime that invites David Duke to Holocaust denying conference in the Islamic Republic.

Islamist have no shame.

Thank you Mr. Kadivar!

Mon Q YOU Have ALOT to Learn ...

I don't think your diatribe is worth a response. As If I cared for Rajavi and Co. What do I care what becomes of them ?

I am not proposing an alliance with them. I am giving their supporters a chance to give up their leaders fanaticism and cult organization and join a more worthy cause than blowing themselves up or burning themselves for their Cult Leaders ...

Also for your excuses on Ahmadinejad and his neo nazi brothers, let me say this: Ahmadinejad is a CRIMINAL for he used his status as an Elected Leader of a nation to promote Neo Nazi Theories in my home country and shed doubt on the most Horrendous Crime in the History of Humanity and all that the satisfy a foreign Policy and Interior Domestic Agenda aimed at Maiming ANY Political Opposition to the IRI Government and Leadership in the Most Undemocratic fashion and in a way that had NOTHING to do with Iran's Interests nor even with the Ideals of the sincere Revolutionaries of 1979. They were not many sincere ones but there were a few who at least believed in democracy and Human Rights like Bazargan, Amir Entezam ( Still in Prison) or the Forouhars.

Bazargan Warning Deputies on the Advent of a Turbaned Absolute Monarchy in otherwords what we have today in Iran:

Bazargan started Criticizing Khomeiny's Authoritarian Rule:

I did not share their political assessments nor belong to their Political Family but can understand their philisophical approach of a society free of dictatorship or corruption and social injustice that is common in third world countries. But THEY WOULD TURN IN THEIR GRAVES if they saw what Ahmadinejad, and Khamenei have done to their Ideals and aspiration by creating THEIR ISLAMIC REPUBLIC INTO A TURBANED DYNASTY !

This is all the more Criminal that Ahmadinejad speaks as a Nation's Leader where as all the KKK and Neo Nazi Groups in the World are on the contrary Marginal groups and Not In a Leadership position to hurt anyone. By Giving Credit to their ideas as a World Leader, Ahmadinejad has Opened that Wretched Pandora Box so that their devilish words and dreadful idealogies have gained a respectability and political legitimacy that they did not deserve.

Who would have thought that in the 21st century we would go back questioning the validity of Hitlers Murderous Diatribe ?

YOUR FRIENDS IN IRAN's LEADERSHIP CREATED THE THIS NEW FASCISTIC COMBINATION OF ISLAM AND FASCISM LIKE THEY CREATED THE RADICAL FUNDEMENTALIST VISION OF ISLAM AND THE NIHILIST IDEOLOGICAL READING OF ISLAM THAT SET THE WAY TO  AL QUEDA AND BIN LADEN ! 

NOT REZA PAHLAVI OR ANY OTHER OPPOSITION LEADER !

And So I Repeat if needed and with No Shame that:

I WAS, AM AND WILL BE FOR REGIME CHANGE !

YOU CALL IT FOREIGN INTERVENTION, I CALL IT EMPOWERING THE PEOPLE TOWARDS A GIVEN GOAL: DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM !

SO ANYONE WITH A MINIMUM OF PATRIOTISM TODAY HAS A DUTY TO UNITE THE DEMOCRATIC FORCES BOTH INSIDE AND OUTSIDE IN A BID FOR CHANGE AND NON VIOLENT CIVIL RESISTANCE !

Otherwise they are nothing BUT COLLABORATORS In My BOOK.

You Are Free to Think Otherwise !

As for the rest of your Very LONG Response, I don't even feel concerned by your interpretations.

Imbedded Hypocrisy

Islamists, like this marvelous Islamist wedding photographer, speaking of respect for the Iranian people take the cake.

It is like in the midst of raping them a serial rapist proclaiming his staunch allegiance to respecting the dignity and human rights of his victims. Hypocrisy is imbedded in the Islamists. Khodeti Hajji!  

DK, here's what I have learned about you

You are under the mistaken (very naive) impression that when someone like Rajavi says they are interested in "nonviolent democratic regime change" that they are telling the truth!

Second, as I said there are only two possiblities inside iran:

1) There is true, mass support of the people for overthrow of the IRI.

2) There is not such a mass support.

If the reality is (1), then why accept any help, financially or otherwise? If the reality is (2) then, this means you do not truly agree with the majority of Iranians and would like brainwash them so they support your position. Money can certainly try to do that.

Third, you seem to think (again, either naive or seriously misinformed) that MONETARY help somehow could not be spent on weapons or assassinations. That people like Rajavi or seperatist movements would just use "money" for "peaceful" purposes only. You must have your head examined if that is what you think.

Of course, it's possible that YOU know, like any logical person would, that when you pay or "support" a group, that the money can be used for pure evil and destruction. It's possible you know this, but are saying it's worth it to me, which makes sense because your life is not the one in danger, so you don't mind taking the chance on someone else's family.

Fourth, "soft" is not at all well defined or percise. Neoconservatives would call a naval blockade a "non military" or "soft" solution, but that can easily kill thousands of innocent Iranians and none of the ruling people.

Indeed I will accept even foreign monetary Aid if I could to do Anti IRI Propaganda

Oh good. So this tells me a few things by simple logical implication of your statement. Note that these are what you would have to agree to, if you are logically consistant. You can of course go back and correct your own statements, but what you can't do is deny these implications.

Darius Kadivar would accept money from Arabs, Israelis, Russians and Al Qaeda to overthrow the IRI

If Darius Kadivar thought that Ayatollah Khomeini accepted foreign money for "anti shah propaganda", Darius Kadivar would not hold this against Khomeini or the IRI

Fifth, you state that:

Never did I see or hear the VOA, Radio Farda or Radio Zamaneh for instance call for the execution of clerics in Iran or encourage vengeance or any sort of violent action that would endanger people inside Iran.

So what? IRI newspapers never talk about killing dissidents or discrimination against women or encourage anyone to be violent any more than Fox News.

All they do is expose the injustices and violation of Human Rights in Iran and interview people and even give voice to IRI Lobbies like that of Houshang Amir Ahmadi's AIC to defend himself against accusations.

That's funny. You don't find it interesting that they never talk about Human Rights in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Israel? Is that a coincidence on Voice of America or are they just too busy for (much bigger) injustices around the world? Why is it only oil-rich countries that are in the crosshairs of US foreign policy have "human rights" problems?

If you don't have a problem with this, why do you have a problem with IRI newspapers talking about Iraq atrocities and human rights records in the United States? (100x more people have been killed by the US) why doesn't this bother you? Are you working ot overthrow the US Government?

Do you really care about human rights or are you just using "human rights" as an excuse? If you really care, don't you think that accepting money from foreign governments will undermine your human rights message with the same people you are trying to save? Do you seriously not see that simple point?

So those who unfairly have tried to bad name Reza Pahlavi as a traitor and claiming that he was calling for a destruction of his own country are Simply LIERS, Not to Say TRAITORS !

Yes, I know. RP sounds a lot more reasonable than most of his own followers. But Monarchist politics and in fighting is completely irrelevant to our discussion here.

Its OK to go around and say what a wonderful country Iran is and overlook all the executions and arrestations or assassinations of bloggers and journalists but its Foul to precisely say what is taking place in Iran by fear that Israel would attack Iran ?

Who says this? And what countries do they get funded from?

My Patriotism and concern for the establishment of a democratic and secular Iran is more important than the interests of foreign powers and the geo strategic interests of the leadership of the Leaders of the IRI.

Yes, this is perceisely what Chalabi said as well. But he was too stupid to realize that he was just a pawn in a bigger game. I hope you are not that stupid.

There's an apt American expression: if you lie down with dogs, you will get fleas. If you are willing to lose your principles and humanity by colluding with foreing interests and terrorists, just because htey serve your purpose, then, I have news for you. Nobody, including the IRI is worried about you because you won't have the credibility to accomplish anything in Iran.

This could be why the American-European based "opposition" has been a miserable failure for 30 years, without any IRI interference.

Ahmadinejad crime is to even make Nazi Theories Respectable in the world and not just IRan and thus opening the Pandora Box that was securely closed after the Nuremburg Trials after WWII.

If that's the crime, I would like to see an International conviction first. But "Securely closed"? There are Neo-Nazi sites all over American and Europe. Some of them, by the way, are Iranian and very much anti IRI (would you accept money from them too?)

THAT IS THE GREATEST CRIME COMMITED BY THE IRI LEADERSHIP TO SAY THE LEAST !

Do you realize at least a dozen US Presidents including Johnson, Nixon and Reagan have been rabi antisemites with audio tapes to prove it??? Are you kidding me? If THAT'S your crime, Ahmadinejad isn't even in the top 100 of World's leaders to be tried. But even so, if you are serious (doubt it), shouldn't there firtst be an International criminal case against him?

I will do everything to fight the ideas and philosophy of the Islamic Republic of Iran and accept ANY FINANCIAL AND MORAL Support

Thanks for clarifying. I hope you know that logically "ANY" means: NeoNazis, Al Qaeda, Seperatists, Saudis and Taliban.

These are facts. I hope you can sleep well at night with your "moral support".

Fred. What a joke you are. I'm not surprised you support a foreign financed "regime change" like 1953 but don't make a mistake about the Iranian people.

I have enough respect for them to understand that if they want to do something, they don't need financial support from abroad to do it.

You on the other hand, do not have any such respect for Iranian people. You think that nothing can be accomplished unless financed and directed from the outside. That's been made clear time and again now.

Mon Q I will Accept Any Help I get for a "soft overthrow"

Unless you Prefer a "Violent"  overthrow to a "Soft" one ?

The Term "Soft" seems very clear and unambiguous to me !

Indeed I will accept even foreign monetary Aid if I could to do Anti IRI Propaganda to counter the same propaganda the IRI projects outside its frontiers to seek respectability. Why Not ?  You revolutionaries did the same back in 1979 to fight the Shah. Were You accused of Treason ?

I don't see why we should refuse monetary Aid. NIAC accused the Opposition for trying to receive Financial Help from the US as if it were a crime. The Job of the Opposition is to criticize and even do propaganda like patriotic songs call for demonstration against the IRI embassies or any type of civil dissobedience against those in Power. Thats the Logical role of any Opposition be it inside or outside Iran. Never did I see or hear the VOA, Radio Farda or Radio Zamaneh for instance call for the execution of clerics in Iran or encourage vengeance or any sort of violent action that would endanger people inside Iran. All they do is expose the injustices and violation of Human Rights in Iran and interview people and even give voice to IRI Lobbies like that of Houshang Amir Ahmadi's AIC to defend himself against accusations.

I Have NEVER heard the VOA or Radio Farda or Radio Zamaneh call for Bombarding Iran not even during the BUSH Administrations.

As for the Monarchists, there are many Bazari type people who claim to be supporters and spokesmen for the monarchists and Reza Pahlavi without the latters endorsement. As a matter of fact one of these LA Tv's called Aramehr TV was claiming to be the official pro Reza Pahlavi TV and were denounced by RP's secretariat as being totally independant and that the Crown Prince did not approve their claims or programs and made it public in a statement on his website:

//www.rezapahlavi.org/press/?persian&id=325

Same for Pro Monarchy parties created sporadically on a daily basis claiming to be the official party or representation of views by his office:

//www.rezapahlavi.org/press/?persian&id=341

So those who unfairly have tried to bad name Reza Pahlavi as a traitor and claiming that he was calling for a destruction of his own country are Simply LIERS, Not to Say TRAITORS !

It has been more than 30 years we are asking for more media coverage and help to counter all the Propaganda by the IRI to distort realities of the regime in Iran. If we can have our TV and newspapers financed by democratic goevernments in the West by doing propaganda for democratic values what is treacherous about that ?

Its OK to go around and say what a wonderful country Iran is and overlook all the executions and arrestations or assassinations of bloggers and journalists but its Foul to precisely say what is taking place in Iran by fear that Israel would attack Iran ?

The Hell with Israel and the IRI, My Patriotism and concern for the establishment of a democratic and secular Iran is more important than the interests of foreign powers and the geo strategic interests of the  leadership of the Leaders of the IRI.

Even if Israel Attacks Iran which I will never support nor encourage, I will continue to blame the IRI leadership and currently Ahmadinejad for haveing provoked this escalation.

What had the Palestinian cause have to do with our nuclear rights may I ask ? Why did the IRI and Ahmadinejad jeapordize our nuclear developments and rights by provking Israel with such terms as "Israel has to be wiped off the Map" Or the "Holocaust Conference" that had NOTHING to do with our own national interests of concerns ?

Ahmadinejad crime is to even make Nazi Theories Respectable in the world and not just IRan and thus opening the Pandora Box that was securely closed after the Nuremburg Trials after WWII.

THAT IS THE GREATEST CRIME COMMITED BY THE IRI LEADERSHIP TO SAY THE LEAST !

Today in France and Europe Neo Nazi Revisionists like Jean Marie Le Pen are the staunchest defensors of the IRI and the Islamic fundementalists in a Ironic twist of History.

If That is where Our Great Revolution took us then I will do everything to fight the ideas and philosophy of the Islamic Republic of Iran and accept ANY FINANCIAL AND MORAL Support to counter the IRI propaganda of self respectability.

FOR THE IRI IS NOT RESPECTABLE !

THE IRI IS NOT IRAN !

AND

AHMADINEJAD IS NOT MOSSADEGH !

Don't be such a typical DK!

Hm...
I don't like the MKO
... consider them as Traitors
... I personally will never Join the MKO,
... I will keep an Eye Open on them all the time and will never take their allegience an entire

is your conscience guilty about something? Who are you trying to prove this to? Yourself?

I WAS, AM AND WILL BE FOR REGIME CHANGE !
That's fine. You and a 1000 like you can be for whatever you want. But it's nothing is going to happen unless you have support of the people inside the country (you do not at this moment, or else it would have happned already).

In absence of the said support from the people, you have the option to compensate for your shortcomings by receiving "aid" and "help" (read: money) from foreign governments like US, Israel, Netherlands or France. This will make you exactly like the MKO who accepted help and support from Saddam Hussein and furthermore from US and Israel.

So... in conclusion... I know you like to go cross-eyed and play righteous and angry with your "opinions". But the basic reality that you failed to answer is this:

Either you accept "support" from foreigners or you don't. If the answer is "no", then you and I are in complete agreement. But I don't know what your answer is. You weaseled out of answering this question by talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say "we" when I'm talking about specific organizations that do accept foreign support, yet you say you hate the MKO... but again you say you would accept their help? Kind of confusing... sounds like someone who really doesn't get the basic morality of the question and is just wasting time.

The groups that accept foreign support are just the same as the MKO (good luck waiting for an apology, it's not going to happen). That's why I call them "clowns" because they are trying to be a bad immitation of Ahmad Chalabi.

Your philosphy seems to be: I don't care who I collude with for the "cause". this is a total failure of morality but it's nice to know who you consider friends. But if that's what it is, I would like ot know just so we are clear.

Disclaimer

I just want to make sure that y'all know that I wasn't the one calling anyone a clown.

I just think that if Q is going to put it out there then it would be nice if he backs it up with his article.

I for one would like to know exactly, why he sees them as clowns.

MON Q

I don't like the MKO and consider them as Traitors after they joined Iraqi forces to fight our soil. But I definitively consider them More Iranian than Your GAZA TearJerkers ready to sell and jeapordize Iran's territorial security by provoking a foreign power into military confrontation and basically giving away good Iranian money to Non Iranian entities like the Hamas and Hezbollah, when Iranians are starving and fighting social and economic misery while your Mullahs are having their stomach fed like Whores:

//www.forbes.com/global/2003/0721/024.html

Mind You, I personally will never Join the MKO, but if some of their former members give up terrorism, and accept that their past behavior was treacherous and ask forgiveness, I will have no particular resentment for them and will accept them to to  join us, if they wish to (even if I will keep an Eye Open on them all the time and will never take their allegience an entire) . I won't reject them no more than I would reject communists or republicans who oppose the IRI.

I would never have come to this conclusion had I not witnessed your friends behavior over Gaza and their Treacherous and manipulative ways showing how far you were ready to go to sell our country's security and interest for a bunch of Terrorist Organizations.

The Mullahs do not deserve our sacred land and the throne of Jamshid ! They can go and apply for a Palestinian Passport since they sold us to the Arab cause but they better not give us lessons on Patriotism. We Know where we Stand !

Their other choice is to give up their support for the IRI like Khomeiny's own son who met Reza Pahlavi and considers him as a patriot.

Our door is open even to the reformist Mullahs when it comes to national coalition to overthrow the IRI.

So My Dear MON Q, in conclusion

I WAS, AM AND WILL BE FOR REGIME CHANGE !

And May the Mullah's and their Turbaned Dynasty Tremble with Shapour Bakhtiars Memoreable Words !

IRAN HARGUEZ NAKHAHAD MORD !

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jKXWRzs-Mg

My Opinion too.

DK

q not logged in

So, why not write the article on these alleged "clowns" then?

Kadivar,

as long as you're willing to accept money from foreign governments (that's about the only entities that have money), there's plenty of opportunities. You can start here, just down the street from your house. Let me know how it goes!

Really ? Can I join the Project ? ;0)

I am willing to be on the IRI's Enemy List anytime soon ;0)

Where can I sign in support of this "soft Overthrow" Project given that is exactly what I have always been advocating in regard to the IRI.

VIVE LA RESISTANCE !

Paranoid maybe but also correct...

Many people have noticed the increased activity aimed at regime change in a different guise in the past year. The Dutch and the Americans are on the forefront, but some stuff out of Germany, Israel and France as well.

Have we forgotten that the editorial staff of the popular dutch Persian radio station (Radio Zamaneh) was forced out because they were not sufficiently anti regime? They would not take orders from the Dutch government which exposed why they put together the radio to begin with.

Many other similar "projects" have popped up all over the place: IranVNC, WashingtonTV, bikhoshoonat, Iran Policy Committee, American Iranian democracy initiative, US Alliance for a Democratic Iran... etc. etc...
//www.unitedagainstnucleariran.com/about/coal...

These are not normal "grass roots" Iranian organizations. They are all funded by one or more governments like US, Israel and Europe...

I really should write a full article on these clowns...

Can you say.......paranoid?

Can you say.......paranoid?

Kheyli Sepaas!

Thank you again Dr. Kazemzadeh for another very interesting post.

Best,

Nadia