News

Captain

I think you'll like this cartoon:

//cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?image=5&topicid=72

And this is for our friend Abarmard.  I think he'll get a kick out of this one:

//cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?image=0&topicid=72

and "you'er welcome" Abarmard.  Please feel free to use the cartoon(with my compliments) in your next U.S. / IRI comparison comment.  Please do however mention who provided it to you.  I want some credit for my efforts. :-).

Captain

Thanks my friend.  Your comments are always polite, well researched and informative as well.  You also make a point of insisting on a civil discussion, which is commendable.

You are quite right about the Patriot Act.  It is one of the excesses of King George, which will hopefully be dealt with in years to come.  Interestingly, Goerge Bush's conduct was so repulsive in dealing with terrorism suspects that on many occasions the conservative judges that he himself appointed (and other judges as well) disagreed with him.  The perect example of this was the case of the Chinese detainees at Guantanamo.  Here's a link:

 //english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2008/10/2008107231919438683.html

Additionally, the Bush administration astonishingly lost 3 Supreme Court cases (with Alito and Roberts on the bench) about Guantanamo's datainees' right to a hearing, right to counsel, etc. , and that is in the middle of two ongoing wars.  That is simply unheard of in U.S. legal precedent.  It just shows how abusive Bush and under Republicans were.  But, things are looking up now that yo yo is out of the office. 

We'll see. 

Anonymous Observer

Firstly I appreciate your links, they were all informative.

You have a valid point, actually several valid points. To begin with, what US did to Japanese during WWII was despicable and no way no how can one justify it. 

As to your point about post 9/11, and Iraq invasion by US and detention of Iranians in Iraq, I could not agree more that they are not relevant.

However, with that said, my personal opinion is that in all these cases, there might or might not be a real crime committed, and the detentions are more political than  criminal matter.

Is IR involved in espionage activity in Iraq? I think one can easily say that they are. Is Iran involved in espionage activities in most all other countries in the world? I think again one comfortably say that they are. This is part of global politics to gather information. In other word, everyone does it.

But with what I have seen, IF any anyone is detained in US under suspicion of espionage, and IF that person happens to be Muslim from that part of the world, he will be labeled a terrorist and not an spy. Why you might ask? Allow me

Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001, Also known as Patriot Act of 2001

By enacting this law, new set of penalties and new set of treatment of people were set in place. One of the major accomplishment was, that it enabled homeland security to detain suspects for indefinite time without allowing legal assistance and proper court hearing.

Section 215 allows the FBI to apply for an order to produce materials
that assist in an investigation undertaken to protect against
international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities. Amongst
the "tangible things" that could be targeted, it includes "books,
records, papers, documents, and other items"

In layman's language, if you have certain books you are considered a terrorist

Thanks again for your civil and informative dialogue.

Regards

-YT

For further reading: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act

Ladies , Gents

If I may interject, I doubt i seriously that Mr. Abarmard is trying to condone, or even approve the imprisonment of Saberi, nor of IR judicial system.

I have read enough of his comments in various thread to be able to say that his analysis is logical and not attempt to condone the actions.

One of the points that I am in total agreement with him is that he say:[You could argue that you don't care about the rest of the world since you are Iranian but I don’t buy that argument. The world perceives Iran
worse than Pakistan or the Saudis, Turks or Jordanian. Why? We are under the lens and they are not.]

This is not to say that illegal imprisonment of Saberi  is justified, nor is to say the execution of Delara Darabi. But the point of the matter is Iran as a nation, regardless of stupidity of the current regime is under intense scrutiny. Just pay attention to propaganda, specially later on the eve of BibiYaboo's trip and meeting with Mr. Obama, and aftermath of AIPAC general meeting how intense this scrutiny has become.

I by no means am implying that Saberi's imprisonment was legal, or whether she was given a fair trial. If you notice my earlier comments, her case was TOTALLY and CATEGORICALLY a political move in the parts of Ahmadinejd. The case had nothing to do with her guilt or innocence.

May I bring to your attention the latest development in her case:

TEHRAN,
May 12 (Xinhua) -- Roxana Saberi, the freed U.S.-Iranian reporter, said on
Tuesday that she has no plan to move out of Iran currently

//news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-05/12/conte...

Regards

-YT

Anonymous111

If you like to hear that you have superior knowledge and don't need to know any more here it is: You got superior knowledge about the matter and do not require any more. Happy? Now discussion closed.

Get a Grip Abarmard

"The other issue was the legal system. The Iranian system is based on the logic of the social understanding about the laws of the country and the region. This "backward" mentality and constitution if you like, is the direct result of the US interference to the Iranian affair and existence of Shah to stop the social growth." 

What?!!!! What do these sentences even mean?  Having a constitution is backward?!! 

Dude, Iranian law is based on a 7th century Arab Bedouin tribal code that was incorporated into Islam.  They just ordered someone stoned for God's sake!  Where else in the World does that happen?  Now put aside your oghdeh about the U.S. for a second and think logically.  The United States has the most sophisticated and complex legal system in the history of human existence.  Is it perfect?  No, but nothing is.  One thing is for sure, though: it is far better than what you have with the IRI.  I think that you said that you live in the U.S.  That's just great!  You also said that you believe that the Iranian system is better than the U.S.  So, next time that you have a legal issue in the U.S., I want you to put your money where your mouth is and ask whatever court in the U.S. you are in front of to apply Iranian laws to your case. Tell us how that works out.  We want proof though.  Please post the results and the paperwork in a blog on this site. 

As far as the IRI operatives in Iraq that you keep tearing yourself apart for, can you tell us what were these "innocent" individuals doing in a foreign country in the middle of a war?  Selling ice cream and watermelons?  You know what I think should be done with them?  Here: I think that they should be turned over to the Iraqi authorities.  If there is evidence against them, they should be charged.  They should then be given full access to counsel of their choice. Then they should be put on trial before a truely independent tribunal, and if they lose, they should be punished accordingly.  If they are found not guilty, then they should be set free.  BTW, this is much more than the same "innocent" people will allow an avergae Iranian, who has found herself on the wrong side of the IRI, once they return to Iran.

As far as your "fashion show" is concerned I remember someone recommending equal treatment for you at that time.  I agree with that comment.  In order for you to have any credibility on the subject, you should provide us with evidence that you abided by a compulsory dress code for at least 60 days.  We can put it up for a vote on this site, as to what you should wear.  I recommend a "manteau" and "maghnehe" just like women in Iran are forced to wear; but again, unlike you, I believe in the democratic process.  So, we should it put it up for a vote.  The whole process of you going through this should be videotapted.  Once you wear that same attire for 60 days, and post the video on this site, we will take your fashion opinions seriously.   

Anonymous111

I proudly praised the "Iranian" fashion show and encourage the Iranian fashion industry to grow. Why not? As far as I know we live in an Islamic neighborhood and not the German or French, as you would like to believe. The return of capital of such industries are estimated over a billion dollars that can be in the pockets of the Iranian people.
The fact that if a British did the same and became rich, you would kiss the grounds where he walked along the way, but you and your like make fun of Iranians who try to find ways to bring our culture, regional traditions to the international market and create fashion (read Jobs) for the people.

Those were not Islamic Dresses; they were Gilaki, Azari, Kurdish, Lori, Fars (Dashtestani), Turkmenistani, and Khuzestani. I feel horrible seeing people with such low self esteem about their own country and potentials.

I am glad that Iran has freed Mrs. Saberi and now I believe the US should free the Iranian hostages, which was ALSO political. Any objections?

The other issue was the legal system. The Iranian system is based on the logic of the social understanding about the laws of the country and the region. This "backward" mentality and constitution if you like, is the direct result of the US interference to the Iranian affair and existence of Shah to stop the social growth. Now we got to move on. What are you guys complaining about?

The legal system is linked to the country and society. We can't have one growing and the rest remaining the same. At the same time, for most of the cases, the system works better than the United States. As I mentioned, this depends on the case or the issue in hand.

The reason that Iran treats those considered the enemy harshly can be directly related to the US treating those called enemy harshly. When a country sees something or someone as a threat, it reacts with most inhumane manner, be it the US, Germany, Turkey, or Iran as you love to mention.

The reason that you hear so much about the Iranians in prison can also be investigated. Why isn't the friends of the US that are most certainly backward, dictatorial regimes never have anyone torture or killed or imprisoned? Not justifying the wrong doing of the Islamic Republic, but letting you know that you are very much influenced by the media to think one way about Iran and differently for the rest of the bad governments.

You could argue that you don't care about the rest of the world since you are Iranian but I don’t buy that argument. The world perceives Iran worse than Pakistan or the Saudis, Turks or Jordanian. Why? We are under the lens and they are not.
In many cases I would argue that based on the location, situation and capabilities, we are far more advance and modern than the rest of the Westernized Middle Eastern countries that are backward, socially primitive and yet carry the image of modern with a positive Western media advertisements.

Hope this clarifies.

Disease cured?

What kind of disease of islamic republic deciders is cured as a result of imprisonment of a girl for 4 months? A girl who was there as a result of her naive love for her father-land; to terrify her, and to probably make her hate and be afraid of her fatherland country hereafter.

Is "del dard-e maraagh-e" islamic republic leaders now cured that they managed to bring harm to a young girl? what purpose did this serve? which problem of iranians within was solved?

Abarmard: You are lost buddy; take off your islamic glasses and side with iranian "people" instead for awhile to see the light. Do not sell your soul to the devil, even when that devil shapes like a religion or an ideological system with 30 years of atrocious life.

Wow Abarmard!

You really need to find an antidote to the IRI cool aid that you drank a long time time ago.  Aren't you the same person who was praising the "Islamic Fashion Show" for women in Iran that so obnoxiously celebrated the imposition of a compulsory dress code on Iranian women?

So, quoting Bill Riggio is bad (even when he sets forth undisputed facts about the names of the detainees that even the IRI has not contested) but accepting everything that comes out of the mouths of the "Tehran prosecutor" and IRI's "Judiciary spokesperson" is perfectly fine, and indeed expected?!!!!!

Give us a break!

Iranians love Japanes! The Japanese envoy had a lot to do w/it!

Of course, that is among all other consideration. Again, I find it rather fascinating to see all these areguments about a case that we really know very little about! The regime is the one we all know, no argument there. However, she is out and that is good. But, what about all those innocent people who have gotten killed and tortured and are being tortured but nobody knows about, since they don't have a US citizenship?

Now, we can go to another IRI's screw up coming up soon. Peace!

Abarmard

Please share the name of  innocent Iranian Jailed in US, we Iranian in this country can contribute money and effort for their defense and freedom!. GIVE US THEIR NAME.

Anonymous Observer, there is also racism

Anonymous Observer,

We all know that some Russian and Israeli and Nazi spies get a proper arrest with fair treatment, lawyers and everything. But if you're middle eastern today, you don't even get the dignity of being called a "spy". You get accused of being a "terrorist cell" and thrown in the dungeons. People who did zero damage to this counry compared to the Russian or Israeli spies were called "enemy combatents" and got Guantanimo, Abu Ghraib, with torture, no lawyers and questionable legal status. Even people accused of being spies for Cuba got a horrible unjust treatment with years of their lives wasted in the justice system. So you are probably not comparing apples to apples.

Captain

Thanks for the link.  Well, there have been many cases in which individuals have been arrested in U.S. on charges of being spies for various countries.  Here are some examples:

//prisonpost.com/blog/2009/02/06/us-says-ex-agent-passed-secrets-to-russia-from-jail_202.html

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames

In all those cases, it appears that legal procedures were followed through properly and convictions were well deserved.  The only cases involving Iranians in the U.S. that I can think of relate to weapons or money transactions. If you know of any espionage cases, please let me know.

The issue here though is not the U.S.  That is a whole different subject matter.  What I often see on this site, which is quite frustrating, is that whenever there is any mention of any wrongdoing about the IRI, the U.S. is immediately compared, as if if the U.S. does something wrong or right, that act should set the standard by which the IRI should be judged.  I mean, the U.S. rounded up the Japanese during WWII.  Should Iran have done the same with its Arab population during the war with Iraq?  These comparisons are just without any merits, and at best are red herrings designed to divert attention from the real issue.

The U.S. has done many things wrong since 9/11.  GITMO was a mistake.  Attacking Iraq was a crime.  Abu Ghraib was a crime...there are many other examples.  But what does detention of Iranians by the U.S. in Iraq have to do with the detention of an Iranian citizen (as the IRI itself claims) by the IRI in Iran?!!!!  If someone (Abarmard) wants to write about Iranians' detention in Iraq, please go right ahaed.  I personally don't care.  But comparing those cases with the Sabri case---which as you correctly say was a political game---is comparing apples and oranges. 

Anonymous Observer

I am not trying to flame the debate, nor am trying to take sides, but I have to admit that I am in agreement with both you and Abarmard to a certain degree.

I have been following the story and blogs in other sites and ironically have notice the same dialogue. I am in agreement with you since my personal opinion is that this was a political chess game. At the same time I agree with some of the points Abarmard is making in regards to the treatment the person might have receive if it was the other way around.

To begin with, they would have been labeled terrorist and not spies and therefore they would have been treated as such. This is the double standards I suppose Mr. Abarmard is referring to. On the other hand there are those who are charged with these types in Israel and Iraq.

It will be naive to think that US would have treated such cases any better than Iran did, since both have much political gain/loss at stakes.Knowing as little as I know about US judicial system, there would have been no intervention from the executive branch. At the most, they would have made a deal in exchanging spies, as it was norm during the cold war with Russia.

//roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/...

Nice writeup. worthy of your glance.

-YT

آمریکا برتر از کانادا آمد پدید!!

وقتی همه چیزدر ام القراء حسینقلی خان طبق اصول باشه اینجوری میشه دیگه!

 مثلاً آدم خبرنگار ایرانی - آمریکاییه و داره بدون داشتن اجازه خبرنگاری میره یه جا خبر تهیه کنه، پیش خودش فکر میکنه سر راه کمی شراب هم بخره، خدا رو چه دیدی شاید لازم شد، در ضمن برای دست گرمی یک کمی جاسوسی هم واسه آمریکا میکنه و .........زرتی گیر میفته! !

حالا خر بیار و باقالی بار کن.....

حسن قلی خان میگه «آشیخ ولش کن بره، ضعیفه باعث درد سر میشه»

حسینقلی خان میگه «فعلاً بذار هشت سال بهش بدیم تا ببینیم چی میشه»

خلاصه چند هفته کش و واکش و آبرو ریزی و جار و جنجال و ....................

حضرت رهبر به حسن قلی خان و حسینقلی خان تشر زدن و فرمودن «خاک تو سرتون کنن بیعرضه ها.......یه کار به این سادگی رو هم خراب کردین! چرا ندادینش دست قاضی مرتضوی تا مثل  زهرا کاظمی این ضعیفه رو هم خود کشی ش کنه؟»

دیگه از فردا نمیتونن کسی رو تو اون مملکت به اتهام شراب خریدن و جاسوسی برای آمریکا هم دستگیر کنن مگه اینکه طرف کانادایی باشه!

Captain

I agree.  That has been my point all along.  The rest of the things that I have been forced to debate here are just diversions. 

.

Saberi's case had nothing to do with her alleged guilt or innocence and it was purely political maneuvering in the parts of Ahmadinejad to gain:

1. International spot light

2. domestic propaganda.

This is what make me sick that how these goons play with the lives of  people for their political gains.

-YT

Relax Abarmard jaan

I was simply listing informtaion about captured Iranians's identity.  There are other sources on the matter.

And don't worry about them.  "We" know that they are OK.  In fact, there is a little thing that you seem to be quite unaware of in making all this noise, and that is the fact that not only Iran's ambassador to Iraq, but also members of the captives' families have been able to meet with them, and they seem to be doing just fine. :-).  Here's the link:

//www.payvand.com/news/07/nov/1186.html

Again, please show me the part in my comment where I said that "the justice system in here is good enough".  Wher did I say that?  Again, please don't twist my words.  If I want to say something, I'll say it myself.  I don't need you to interpret my words.  Also, again, if you want to start a blog about the U.S. legal system, please go ahead.  As I said before, I promise that I will contribute constructively to your blog.  This is not the subject matter here though.

Anonymous Observer

you must be kidding me, providing information written by Bill Roggio!!!

Let's be serious and do not throw things just to prove your claim. I want to know:

Why haven't we heard where they are?

Why don't we know if they are alive?

Why don't they have any lawyers?

Why have they been tortured?

Now if the same kidnapping happened to the US national guards, you would want them to be treated fairly, correct? Although I am not convinced that the Iranians were who YOU claim them to be.

Here what you needed to do based on your own standards. You started to claim that the justice system in here is good enough, back it up. You failed to do so. You made that first comment and I provided another side. You have not yet been able to back any of your original claims about a "real Legal system". If you need proof for every word that you hear then you need to provide proof also and not  something similar to the site that you have pasted here.

US has the highest number of people in jail. Here is from a decent source:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_the_United...

Cheers

Bivafa...

I think it has been indisputable that she bought wine which is a crime and she worked as a journalist without the proper credentials which also is a crime in Iran.

You think wrong. The charges against her buying wine was dropped. Do you know why? Because according to her family and friends, she does NOT drink alcohol, even in private. Doesn't that tell you something about integrity of IRI judicial system.

On your second point, you think wrong again. The charge against her working without license was also dropped. I bet you do NOT know why? Because working without license is NOT a crime of any form under IRI laws. License is NOT for reporting, it is ONLY for security check clearance in case you want to enter news conferences and interviews. And if you don't have license, they do not let you in room with any important official; otherwise it is NOT any crime.

If you take off you islamist blind-fold and see the endless crimes that IRI has committed against so many iranians in the past 30 years and the blood of tens of thousands of iranians on their hands, only if you see that, although you may not care about, you would not ask for any proof on your last point. The burden of proof IS on the accuser to prove guilt, that IRI has not done so in a transparent way. The burden is NOT on the accused who is innocent by default UNTIL "proven" guilty. IRI has done nothing for iranians in the past 30 years except for oppression, thievery, and murder. Only if you take off your IRI-blind-support blinders, that is indisputable who the criminals are: the IRI leaders.

If it was the other way round

She would have been sent to Guantanamo and would have been waterboarded for good measure, Dick Cheney style- all legal and above board with memos from the big W himself.

God bless America I say.

Abarmard

There has been a great number of news reports from various sources around the world describing in detail the names, ranks and the operational levels of the captured Iranian operatives in Iraq.  Here's one of them:

//www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2007/09/captured_iranian_age.php

I also remember watching a CNN video that actually showed their IRGC identification cards, which were obatined at the time of their capture. Unfortunately, I did a quick search for the video, but could not find it. 

For you to disbelieve all of this evidence, you must essentially ignore ALL independent global news sources and believe the IRI.  :-).  Obviously, you are free to believe what you want, but I personally tend to believe the former rather than the latter. 

Great News

The news that she has been released is a great way to start the week. I hope she has a safe flight out of Iran and back to the States or wherever else she plans on going.

AO has a very valid point. The entire ordeal was an orchestrated farce. Knowing these idiots, they're going to try and use this "appeal" and "suspension of sentence" to generate some PR for their "humanitarian Islamic justice" system.

Sorry, I can't say those words in quotation marks without laughing.

be fair

You are not correct. The Iranian captives are not part of the military. You assumed Saberi being innocent and should do the same for the Iranian. I have not seen any documentations or a case review by anyone to suggest your claim. This is exactly what I am tqlking about when I see people such as yourself are so one sided that are just plain wrong! Maybe you don't mean to be but you see one wrong OK and another not!
I see both cases as wrong. I believe this has gone far enogh. Happy Monday

i responded to your original post

Your original post was about a real legal system, and I assumed you are referring to a system similar tothe US. Sorry if I misunderstood you. I do not disagree with your core idea here but wanted to bring the idea that corruption and mis handling the cases is very common specially in this country.

Abarmard

Can you please point me to the part of my comment where I said that " it is "only" the Iranian legal system that is flawed"?

Much to the contrary, this is what I said: "If there are unjust legal cases in the U.S., then so be it.  Those should be corrected and discussed as well."

I don't mind debating issues, but please don't misquote me. 

Also, what I said about example cases was: "If you have a specific example about a case in the United States, concerning a U.S. citizen or resident, that you believe is (or has been ) mishandled...."

The case of the captive Paasdars that you talk about are a mis-camparison with the Saberi case.  The IRI has been screaming its head off that Ms. Saberi entered Iran as an Iranian citizen and she is being treated as such.  The Iranians that you talk about are members of the Iranian military who were captured in a war zone (Iraq).  Regardless of whether or not the U.S. was right in detaining them, from a legal prospective, a different standard applies to their case.  Again, please don't use diversionary tactics and stick with the subject.  

PS, I'm not going to "google" anything.  You brought up the subject and it's therefore your burden to produce supporting evidence. 

let's start with the captive Iranians

Who have been denied any rights including any informations as to their where abouts to their families. One of them was badly tortured and it is believed that the rest have been murdered. You have access to google and don't need me to name ONE case where it has been "mis handled", if you truly trust the system so much that are asking for one such a case then I am surprised at your detail knowledge of the iranian mis conduct. I am not arguing a suport for the system but to answer your original claim that it is "only" the Iranian legal system that is flawed. That is not a correct statement.

To Anonymous observer

What do you know about her case that we don’t' know and proves that she was totally innocent? Please share it with us.

I think it has been indisputable that she bought wine which is a crime and she worked as a journalist without the proper credentials which also is a crime in Iran. Now, what has been confessed to, the matter of the confession was made and whether she participated in any activity that could be deemed as espionage, that is unknown to most of us.

So based on what we know, they have done better then the Americans which have kidnapped, allegedly tortured and have kept the Iranians in prison for months and months without any charges.

Mehrdad

Abarmard

You cannot create a diversion by talking about the U.S. (or any other country for that matter) whenever something negative is said about the IRI.  You also should not talk about hypothetical cases.  This piece is about Roxana Saberi.  If you have a specific example about a case in the United States, concerning a U.S. citizen or resident, that you believe is (or has been ) mishandled please tell us the name of the case, the circumstances surrounding it, why you belive it has been mishandled, etc. and put in a blog.  I promise that I will discuss it with you.  Talking about the U.S. legal system under this subject matter is irrelevant and diversionary. 

Anonymous Observer

The case that is openly published is not always the best example!

You trust the legal system in the US, and I am glad that you do. I think it's relative based on the situation. You could be in a wrong place at a wrong time and be denied a legal adviser also. Is it possible? Absolutely, whether you are in the US or Iran.

You say if there is a problem let's fix it. Well would you please advise me as a citizen in this country how I could fix the problem? We have more people in jails in the US per capita population, mostly I believe innocent than anywhere in the world. You claim that this works?

You have every right to be against a system. I however have a problem with those who close their eyes on one side and widely open on the other. Have your eyes open at all times, then you'll be fair.