Pictory

To Farhad Kashani

Actually, what's important in the link I provided is the CIA document that's attached, not that it was published in the New York Times.

In order to make things clear: The 1953 coup was planned by the CIA, and executed by BOTH CIA operatives AND some Iranians, including the person whose video started this discussion, Shaban Jafari, also known as Beemokh.

Nobody is blaming solely one side or the other, whereas one should also make the distinction that it was SOME Iranians who took part in the coup, not ALL. So one cannot generalize as much as saying "let's blame Iranians". There were Iranians who lost their lives that day for defending the exact opposite cause you are attributing to them.

Just thought I'd make that clear.

Mammad Agha

I trust that you are a scientist. I have read most of your postings and I trust that you have published many articles. Nothing personal, but for a scientist, you sound more like amateurish than professional. Just look at the terms that you use, like shahollahi, to get an upperhand in your argument. You are emotionally frozen in 1978 and until you relieve yourself of the hatred for the shah (whatever the reason behind it may be), you will not be able to evaluate anything objectively. Lots of thing have changed in the past 30 years, in regard to new information about the years before 1978, experiences of years after 1978, as well as our now intimate familiarity with western democracies and their pros and cons. You ignore all of that and you argue matters as if you are still living in 1978. This type of freeze in time in often unconscious and is due to a mix of cultural (which we are all part of) or family experiences and attitudes of 1970s. At least the latter is somewhat different inside iran as I have witnessed that some people in iran now curse the shah but not because of what he did during his reign or the 1953 coup, but because he did not stand up to mullas and left the country in 1979.

I would not go into details of it again, but I can just say that there are lots of people like you that do not move with time and although are western educated still think as they did 30 years ago. Let's move on. Shah is dead, He will not come back, and demonizing him based on out-dated data have seized to justify either the bad mistake that iranians made in 1979 or the brutality and incompetence of IRI whose achievements you called "fantastic." Once again, no personal insult is intended. I am just saying this so that you know that someone with similar experiences as you have had neither sees the world the way it was in 1978 nor evaluates events dominantly emotionally. But I should say that most that hate the shah simply hate the shah without even themselves know why they do that. That is why they accuse others of being shahi, shahollahi, or monarchist to win the argument easily without presenting updated facts that can be relevant today in the context of 30 years of devastating experiences that we have had. Our generation were living in iran of that awful shah with all its short-comings, we had a decent life and an outstanding eduction, and we basically lost our country since our fathers made a mistake, a bad mistake, in 1979.

That awful shah brought us decades of peace, expanding economy, and top-notch education for all, amongst other things. Like any other human being, he had his flaws too, amongst them his authoritarian way of ruling the country. That is a trade-off that I was (and still am) willing to take as I see no better alternative in sight some 30 years later.

Jamshid & Farhad

Jamshid khaan:

I had decided not to respond to you anymore. But, because you blew up, I decided to say a few words.

In my last comment I was not talking about any person in particular. If I were, I would name the person, as I always do. I just made a general comment based on my 35 years of experience.

I had also told you that I would not get myself involved in arguments with you, because I believe that you do not want to discuss things. Discussing things means learning and teaching; means giving and taking. You do not do any of these. It seems to me that you are only interested in "winning" the argument (just read your last comment in which you boasted how you made arguments that I and others could not refute, or how you have done this or that, but did not respond to any of the points that I had brought up), which is why I think it is useless to discuss things with you.

My parents were from Mashhad, so I consider myself Mashhadi. The good people of Mashhad have a proverb that is totally appropriate here. They say (in farsi-english): Panbeh dozd dast beh rishesh mikesheh.
So, if you have been accused of being leftist, this, and that, and if you are not a Shahollahi, why did you get angry after reading my comment that was quite general and about such people?

No, you did not do any calculation to show me anything. The point was, and still is, there is no point in discussing things with you, and in particular about things for which you have no expertise or track record - subjects that you supposedly "defeated" me with. I have published many political articles in which such things have been discussed in great details, and these articles are well known.

As for your insults, I am not going to respond. I will never lower myself that low. You should not either, if you are a self-respecting man

Farhad:

The first paragraph above is also applicable to you.
I was not talking about any particular person, and in the past I have responded to you directly.

I won't respond to the rest of what you said, because I do not see the point, except for the last one: I am happy that you agree with me regarding Shah's crimes, and that you also believe, like me, that he should have been put on trial. At least, this is one point on which we agree.

Re: Mammad

Your utter, complete, absolute and irefutable "imbecility" and "ignorance" stems from the fact that you claim I am a monarchist, while I am not.

In fact, in my arguments against die hard monarchists, I have been called a "leftist". Some Bahais have called me a hezbolahi. I have had the privilege of being called other things too, such as thief, zionist, puppet, CIA operative, etc.

But wait! Let's not forget about the combos: hezbollahi and thief, monarchist and zonist, etc.

Again for the N-th time, my vote is for a democratic, parliamentary and secular form of government. I also happen to hate lies (khomeini was a bacheh baaz), baseless rumors (shah stole 16 billion dollars), creating emamzadeh out of ordinary people (mosadegh could never ever make a bad decision). I will argue against all of these.

Additionally, I think after I mathematically, with the use of numbers and calculations that you could not refute, "slam dunked" you and your false claims, in our little discussion in the "1943 Conference" thread, you may have generated some dislike towards me.

You are not the only one I have slam dunked their argument down the drain in a way that they themselves could not refute it.

Therefore, your post is nothing but a bunch of baseless accusations coming out of a small mentally challenged as well as deranged brain who happen to be a supporter of the IRI, oh! but the "reformist" brand! (as though that makes any difference).

And please don't waive your "doctorate degree", as you did in the other thread, to collect legitemacy for your false arguments and baseless accusations. After your last few posts in here and in other threads, I have to wonder if you got that "degree" in hozzeye elmieh or in a tavileh.

Jamshid, good point.

Jamshid, good point. Unfortunately the Daie jaan Napoleon mentality and blaming others for things we did is so strong among traditional Iranians that it’s gonna take god knows what to try to change that. It’s sad.

Mammad, the ultimate

Mammad, the ultimate ignorance and arrogance is intolerance to other people’s opinion by name calling them, and this what you have shown today. You even accuse people, such as myself, of being a monarchist, which actually shows your lack of ability to understand the argument and the issue and looking at the big picture. Whether I’m a monarchist or not is not the issue here, I know this is the old fashioned Iranian way of dancing around the issue, but just for your knowledge, I consider monarchy one of the biggest reasons of our historical mishaps, much more than you guys blame on CIA and MI6! By the way, it is not us who tie everything to IRI, but apparently you’re engaging in that , by linking things other people say to “Zionism”!!!! We’re talking about he 1953 coup, and you jump to a U.N resolution condemning Israel??!!! And you go on accusing people of linking two unrelated matters to each other!?? So, it appears that you couldn’t respond to my or jamshid’s logic and went ahead bashing us and talk about “Zionism” and “Imperialism” and what have you. I agree with you Mammad, that Shah committed crimes, no doubt about it, and I wish the Iranian people had the opportunity to trial him in a court of justice in Iran, and that’s exactly my point as far as we ourselves are responsible for things that happen to us, not others.

Mr. Parham, these are not

Mr. Parham, these are not any information I didn’t know about! First of all, isn’t this the same NY Times who has been repeatedly proved to be wrong in many analysis including a report they had last summer published by Seymour Hersh stating he has official governmental information and proof that the U.S will attack Iran in June 2007? Furthermore, even that document you linked, stresses what I always said. The CIA “planned”… that’s not execution! Countries around the world plot against each other all the time, since the dawn of history! How come we’re always victimized? Why should we have a group of monarchists, whom by the way had the support of millions of Iranians, betray their country like that? What is the historical background and pretext of this betrayal mentality? Just like now that the Mullahs our raping our country and selling it to Russia and China, who should we blame, Putin or Khamanei? I blame Khamanei! Don’t get me wrong, other nations have traitors too, but the difference between them and us they acknowledge it and take responsibility for it, unlike us, whom engage in a clash of civilization by bashing and trashing the U.S for 30 years now over something we need to take responsibility for. The document itself says Iranians, not Americans, went and harassed people on the street and executed the coup. And that is what I’ve been saying all along. It was Iranians, not Americans, who executed the plan. Shah wanted his thrown back, went to U.S (and others by the way including France) for professional help. If the U.S would’ve refused, he would’ve gone to someone else!!! We need to, at some point in our history, hopefully soon before our country falls off the cliff, to take responsibility for our own actions just like any successful nation! The day that happens would be day 1 of a new era of progress and prosperity. For people that don’t take responsibility for their action, progress is just a dream. Regards, Parham

The imaginary world of Shahollahis

Monarchists who write in this column live in an imaginary world. Their degree of ignorance, arrogance, and imbecility is astonishing. They demand, for example, reference to something, but when you give it to them, as Parham has done, they try to change the subject, or skew or reinterpret the meaning of each and every word. It reminds me of the Israelis and Zionists, the Iranian monarchists' patrons. How?

In 1967 the UN Security Council approved Resolution 242, demanding that Israel evacuate the occupied territories. Israel refused for a long time. Why? Their legal argument was: The Resolution said occupied territories, not THE occupied territories, so it was not clear to the Zionist-apartheid regime which territory it had to evacuate!!

If you ask the monarchists something about the Shah's regime, instead of responding, they ask back some questions about the IRI!

If you point out some of Shah's crimes - crimes about which there is universal agreement and are well documented - instead of accepting them, they either blame them on someone else, or give you a list of the IRI crimes, as if one set of crimes justifies another.

Their world is a BINARY world: You are either a monarchist and Shahollahi (1), or you are an IRI agent, supporter, or sympathizer (0). You are either with them (1) or against them (0). They have never ever heard of, or seen, number 3!

They are colour blind: They see things black (IRI) or white (Pahlavi regime).

Despite all their claims about how modern-thinking they are, they actually are completely backward- thinking: In the 21st century, they support a monarchy, and a dictatorial type at that, the most backward type of government.

They are carbon copy of the Hezbollahis: Their Shah
had a diamond Taaj, Hezbollahis' has a turban. Otherwise, the regime of Velaayat-e Faghih is actually doing many things that the Shah's regime did. In fact, it is said that Ayatollah Khamenei has said repeatedly: A lot of things that the Shah did (regarding freedom, elections, the press, etc.) were right; the problem with him was that he was not a devout muslim.

Finally, they do not take responsibility for anything. It is because they either are irresponsible, or so perfect that they never do anything wrong!

Re: Parham

Where are your or NYTime's references that the shah accepted or refused to sign "CIA written" royal decrees?

Notice the careful choice of the words "CIA written". When you want to assasinate someone's character, you use these kind of words.

The CIA would never write decrees and have someone, anyone, to sign it. They could suggest and then support certain decrees, that I could digest, but to actuall "write" it?

Did they write it in English, then translated to Farsi? Or did the CIA operative wrote the "decrees" originally in Farsi? Did someone reviewed for grammatical errors, or for the translation to Farsi to be authentic?

Do you even think about these? Have you read the CIA released documents on the events of 1953?

For Farhad Kashani

//www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/04160...

Mammad, first of all, attack

Mammad, first of all, attack the argument, not the person. But I guess you guys never have an argument, so you resort to attacking the person.You are well aware that there is no fabrication in my article. There are some events that are not recognized or analyzed correctly until some time passes by so the outcomes appear. By outcomes, you can tell what the motives were and who the players were! Please stop listening to clichés!!!!!
The Iranian monarchists are not the only ones who claim what you say they claim. Plus, why would an Iranian monarchist claim that people voted for Mossadegh and to overthrow the monarch? Doesn’t make sense, does it? You’re saying they actually claim that people didn’t like the king? Offcourse not ! So there goes your argument. Furthermore, you don’t have to listen to right wing or left wing theories to understand this, just look videos available from those days (Unless you gonna claim that is a CIA fabricated made footage) that shows millions of Iranian marching into the streets brining the Shah back few years after they elected Mosaddegh to cut Shah’s influence, just as in 1979 when they bought a fascist like Khomeini to overthrow the same Shah they brought back in 1953. The issue here is that we were a nation of uneducated, illiterate and emotional people that leftists, right wingers and religious factions all played with our emotions and at some point threw knock down punches to us. That is it ! No CIA or MI6 or MI7 or MI8 or KGB is responsible! We’re responsible! We need to be taking responsibility for our own action, just like the majority of other people around the world do!! Why should we be different? Your claim about “hundreds of thousands of pages from CIA and Mi6” is absolutely false! No such thing exists, and it has been documented that the extent the CIA influence in the coup was to advise the Shah to go ahead with the coup. The Shah did consult the U.S ambassador, and he shouldn’t, but he did. And what do you mean by they executed the coup? Did U.S soldier go to the streets killing pro-Mosaddegh supporters? Were U.S soldier involved in arresting Mosaddegh and people supporting him? That’s execution my friend ! That is the definition! And tell me Mammad, what would any weapons CIA provided to the Shah or any logistical support they provided for him would’ve been able to stop those millions of Iranians on the street? Please explain how would those things would’ve helped the Shah or the monarchists? Nothing whatsoever. Was the Shah supposed to bomb the people on the streets? We made mistakes in 1953 and again in 1979. We’re the one to blame

Rewriting the history

People like Farhad Kashani, who boast about knowing a lot about history, cannot actually read the history as it has happened. So, what do they do? They write their own version of history. They like to create an information matrix into which fabricated information is fed, and then like to have us inhabit the matrix.

The only people in the entire world who claim that the 1953 was a plot by Iranians are Iranian monarchists, or people that are ashamed of their past. I challenge anybody to give the exact link or address or the name of a book that said that the 1953 coup was an Iranian plot by Iranian "patriots," written by anybody other than a monarchist, or some Maoist-leftist who is now eating s... because he/she is ashamed of his leftist past, like Hamid Showkat or Ali Mirfetros, or someone like Abbas Milani, the former Maoist, who worked with the SAVAK, and his life is now supported by the funds that the Iranian monarchists have raised for him, and the neocons who are also chipping in.

The worst things about Farhad Kashani and people like him is that, they even rewrite the recent history. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of pages about the CIA-MI6 coup in Iran; the men who planned and executed the coup, like Kermit Roosevelt and Donald Wilbur, said as much. The Shah himself told Kermit Roosevelt that "I owe my saltanat to you," yet Farhad Kashani insists on an imaginary version of history. The Shah himself said, "I heard your revolutionary voice," yet people like Farhad Kashani insist that the Revolution was something other than what it truly was: A legitimate Revolution with strong social, economical, and political background. Kashani even wants to sell us his imaginary interpretation of what the Clinton Administration said. He says that the US only regreted "approving" the coup! Even if we believe this fabrication, the question is: Why in its relation with the Iranian army and the Shah, the US was in a position to APPROVE a coup? Why did the Iranian "patriots" need APPROVAL of the coup?

These days are the 36th anniversary of the murder of Khosrow Golsorkhi, a brave man who was not willing to kiss the Shah's back and was executed. Let us hope that people like Farhad Kashani learn just a bit of courage from people like Golsorkhi who gave their lives with utter honesty and bravery, and stop fabricating history. Kashani and people like him are entitled to their opinion, but not to fabricating history.

It's a good thing...

... that "democratically elected" is already under quote marks!

Ali, since you know about

Ali, since you know about those documents, please tell us exactly how the CIA was involved in the coup and then will take the discussion from there. Cause, those documents and what the Clinton admin said , was that the U.S shouldn’t give its approval to Shah to go ahead with the coup. It should’ve get involved and stop it. That is the extent that the U.S was involved with. The plan was already there by the monarchists, the shaboon bimokhs were ready to march onto the streets, the Zahedi’s and other army officials were ready to take care of the military aspect of it..and by the way, all of those were Iranian citizens. So, in this case, how could someone else be blamed? Approving of something and actually doing things to participate in something, are totally two different concepts. By the way, like you said, it was those millions of Iranians who are the ones to blame or get credit for the 1979 revolution just like the 1953 coup, and that’s what I’ve been trying to say, so I guess you’re emphasizing my point there. I actually strongly believe in personal responsibility, unlike some of our traditional mined Iranians

I have visited the Shah's grave in Egypt

I was a big fan of Mossadegh.
After the Shah died I visited Egypt where his grave is and threw some dry feces on his grave. The Shah was an evil man. The Pahlavis were the worst dynasty in Iranian history.

Re: Parham

What about the Mosadegholahi thugs who shut down the "democratically elected" majles in 1953 by the order of Mosadegh himself?

On the attacks on Iranian intellectuals...

... by both Shahollahis and Hezbollahis throughout recent history. Great article by Masoud Behnoud:

//www.roozonline.com/archives/2008/01/post_57...

more brain than most of an-telectuals!

his crime, he loved his king go figure!  They attribute so much to this guy even though he was in prision during the day of alledged coup untill 4:00 Pm!

The real brainless and bemokhs are those iranians who followed khomeini pure and simple. Look yourself in a mirror as they say.

Folks...

Don't tell me I'm the only one here who sees a strange resemblance between Beemokh and the current thugs-in-charge.

Hossein Shahid Chod Va Ballah

Zolm Yazid Chod Va Ballah

A challenge ...

Quote: "If the shah's Savaki agents had not killed khomeini in 1979, had komeini, this pure, just, kind, patriotic and Iran loving man, succeeded in overthrowing the shah in that year, had the pahlavis been overthrown, the popular revolution of 1979 would have led Iran into a new democratic, independent and prosperous era. May god damn the pahlavis for stopping khomeini!...."

Where did this quote come from? Had the pahlavis remained in power by defeating the revolution in 1979, today some thirty years later, how many of you would be repeating the above quote, and truely believing in it too? Most of today's pahlavi bashers would be first in line praising the "popular" 1979 revolution, its "great" leader khomeini, and all of its heavenly and wonderful consequences.

In that alternate reality, with the exception of a few, none of you, NONE, would have paused and thought twice about what the real outcome of the revolution might have been had khomeini succeeded. When confronted by a few who believed things would have become much worst under khomeini than under the pahlavis, you would say "none sense! It is impossible! With the leadership of khomeini Iran WOULD become a democratic and independent country!...." No degree of logic could convince you otherwise.

Well, we don't need to go far to prove that khomeini made things worst. The proof is right here in our real world.

However, this is not the case with the events of 1953. We did not get to see the consequences of Dr. Mosadegh remaining in power. We can only project and guess. When today someone confronts you with his belief that things would have gotten worst with Mosadegh than with pahlavis, you would surely say: None sense! It is impossible!..."

Don't get me wrong. I have the highest regards for Dr. Mosadegh. It was his image and ideas that drew me to the streets during the revolution and made a feverish anti-shah student activist out of me. I was (and in many ways still am) a pro-Mosadeghi when many of you were still in your diapers. But the failure of the revolution and the passage of time had reshaped my opinion. I still firmly believe that Dr. Mosadegh was a patriot with the best of intentions for Iran. However, I don't believe he was a good politician at all. Depsite of his patriotism, I believe his poor political vision and his poor diplomatic skills were leading Iran into disaster.

In those days being a smart politican was as important as being a great patriot in order to save Iran, simply because Iran did not have a good hand against all its domestic and foreign adverseries. 

With this long intro, I am challenging all the pro-Mosadeghis out there to a debate poving that Iran would have benefited more with Mosadegh at the helm than with the Pahlavi king. We can all learn and benefit from such debate. 

To Farhad Kashani

The CIA itself has released documents about its role in arranging the Coup and the reasons why it did it. The American government (under the Clinton administration) again admitted of the involvement of the U.S in the coup of 1953 against the Iranian people. Now, some Iranian monarchists are the only people on the face of the earth who still insists on the absurd theory that the Iranian people themselves, and not American and British secret services, overthrew Mossadegh!!

It is quite interesting that monarchists see the COUP D'ETAT of 1953 which included a MARTIAL LAW and step by step planning from outside, as an act by the "Iranian people" themselves (and only God know on whom they imposed a "martial law"?!!). And they believe that it is an "insult" to the Iranian people to say that foreigners changed their government for them and without their consent! But then, when it comes to the revolution of 1979 (when millions of people poured on the streets, chanted slogans, got injured and got killed to change the shah's government) they themselves call it a "conspiracy" by foreigners!! And I guess that's not an insult to the Iranian people!!

It is funny and sad at the

It is funny and sad at the same time that whoever posted this film, says that Shaboon Bimokh attacks everyone in the streets therefore helping the coup to go through, which means it is Iranians themselves who organized and executed the coup, but comes back and says it was CIA coup??? Which one is it? Are you saying no Iranians participated in the coup? Was Shaboon bimokh a CIA operative? This idea that somehow CIA executed the coup and we Iranians, millions of us had nothing to do with it and somehow got imposed on us by the CIA, is very popular among some Iranians and is killing our national psyche.

Thank you Parham

Just wanna thank you for the nick name you gave..I was actually going to choose pretentious.
thx again

To Parham

So all your problems started before you were born? So a bunch of guys doing their national sport is all your problem? If they recited from Henri Corbin would they be deemed as humnan beings by you? Get a clue they are not responsible for what happened in Iran, they took advantage of a situation that was created and people followed. Everyone who has a relative who has witnessed the Mossadegh Coup knows that within minutes people shifted from saying 'Long Live Mossadegh' to 'Long Live the Shah'. So Shaaban Jaafari might have been a catalyst but not entirely responsible for the coup. And get your other facts right, the zourkhaneh has nothing to do with our politics.

To Parham

This conversation is useless. Mr: Parham you don't know me. but i do have respect for you,Please stop bad mouthing Mr: Djafari.
Also for the sake of fun i promise you that i will mention your name to Rande her husband.
I wish you all the best..

Simpltone

Yes, Cindy Crawford.

To Parham

Mr: Educated, you haven't done yet and I promise you will never do. Simpletone? Costa Ricans? well.......
ba in dou seh nadan ke chenin midanand
az jahl ke danayeh jan ishanand
khar bash ke in jamaat az farteh khari
kar kass ke na khar haast nadanash mikhanand

I assume that you must be hanging out with Cindy Crawford or hollywood stars..

For a moment I thought I was

For a moment I thought I was watching Pavaroti.

Moooo

Well I'm not done yet, but I'm trying to save the country from a few Mr: simpletons who are trying to donate it to a bunch of horny Costa Ricans who just got out of jail.