Capt Ayhab

'we', e.i. other human beings don't want your nation to be bombe

there are human beings on all sides, including many people who are against bombing of other human beings. against reducing their country to stone age, like happened in iraq. they were against this happening to iraq, as i hope you all would have been, too. i hope they will be brave and protest this, including human beings in israel, where the risk of protest is not so heavy; the problem is the people are not activist.

Kourosh jan

It seems we have different perspectives on what is happening inside Iran.  I went there in late September and I was amazed by the sea of change.  Some important taboo is broken and I had the impression (I think pretty accurate) that people have seen their collective power, have got to know who thinks like them, their local or workplace allies, therefore regardless of the increased repression, some networks have been established, and that makes me hopeful about channels of communication and mobilisation. I am hopeful about the future.  The other issue is sanctions.  Sanctions cut the arteries of a country and starve it, that is why people have never wished it on themselves.  It would be like attempting suicide.  In fact, there is no logical link between sanctions and people's mobilisation against the state. States always protect themselves with reserves for quite some time, so there is no short term and quick solution. It will always be the people who will suffer.  And when sanctions are prolonged, the country will die a slow death (usually before it is militarily attacked).  Iraq experienced all these and over a million died before it was finally attacked.  In the meantime, Sadam and its cronies lived in comfort and exerted iron control over a pliant population that needed the regime's meagre hand-outs.  Civil society in Iraq was totally destroyed and the middle class were reduced to paupers.  

If people in a country decide to bring it to a standstill, there will be calls and building up towards a mass general strike, or strikes of major sectors, like oil.  Under those circumstances which will be in the context of large scale national support, strikes and mobilisation, there might be calls for embargoes.  People find their own ways, that's all I can say from my position here.  As for myself, at this current time, with the threat of sanctions at its highest, my focus is to challenge that and the threat of war, so that the indigenous movement in Iran will not be crushed and will have a chance of survival ..  

Mr. KouroshS

You noted [And also, One thing that you and others constantly bring up and I don't
think it is right, Is that If we sit around and Pontificate and exchange ideas, with some of us favoring sanction and other not. That does not mean we are imposing anything. That is far from imposition. ]

Point well taken, however we can not ignore the fact the calls for sanctions, particularly coming form Iranian-Americans or Iranian-Europeans does affect the public opinion in a negative way.

I say negative way, by which I mean pundits do take such things serious. For instance imagine if there was a poll taken of the people living in diaspora as to what they think US governments should do in respect to sanctions against Iran.

People participating in such polls, granted that they are not imposing the sanctions per say, but such a poll will certainly give more ammunition to the entities and neo cons who constantly are beating the drums of sanction and war.

Modern warfare is fought in the theater of public opinion FIRST then with the military strikes. Just look at the amount funds and resources US spent prior to invading Iraq, and the amount of resources Israel for instance devotes to propaganda prior to any new assault.

Regards

-YT 

Fozoul bashi jan

First off, I wish everyone would just let it go ... please. Ms. Hojjati and Mr. El capitano please forgive and forget for the sake of the love you have for Iran and Iranians. 

 FB jan

I am not an Open advocate for it But if it should be included in a series of coordinated and swift actions to get The IRI outta iran then my support is going to be there. I did not then and i am not saying now that there is No way for them to communicate this and other demands, and I know there were no Pro-sanction slogans, But Is That really an effective way of letting the  world Know Even If they wanted the sanctions?

The unusual of aspect of such demand and the reason i said No nation has done so in the history of the world was because Sanctions are usually Imposed on a country by others Not asked for or demanded.  

I am not too sure about the movement being alive, I guess that would be purely a matter of Personal observation and assessment. And I also NEVER said that due to the repression people we can never know what they want. All i wanted to know was that in this particular instance, the hypothetical instance of them asking for sanction. How are they going about doing it? because i don't think chanting slogans is going to do it, Be it with or without permisson of the IRI officials.

 And also, One thing that you and others constantly bring up and I don't think it is right, Is that If we sit around and Pontificate and exchange ideas, with some of us favoring sanction and other not. That does not mean we are imposing anything. Thatis far from imposition. 

Yes Ii do have family in iran and Again no they are not rich and also yes I do worry and have concerns regarding sufferings that this will bring up on iranians. And i am glad that you finally managed to take the words right out of my mouth. IF as you say people are indeed aware of such misery that it can bring , Then is there a point in waiting for a signal from inside to let us know when they are ready for it? According to this, We will never get that signal, chances are and there will never be sanctions or any process by which the IRI would feel losing control and therefore They will never Get the heck out of Iran... So what do we do then? what is the plan of action? We will Just live with it and welcome Everything that happens as new steps in a different direction and changes that we did not have 10 or 20 years ago??

As sensitive as this topic is and as emotional as we all are on it, People should not be lablellled as Murderers and not caring for they own people in iran, JUst by wanting to discuss this option, especiallyc when there are no other options, but to wait and wait and wait some more untill The IRI Finally gets sick and tired of the "hanging" game and the raping and the torturing and .... everytime there is an uprising, And maybe then they will GRace us with their Departure and leave us alone?

.

.

Ms. Hojjati

I wish to keep the focus of this thread on the subject matter. I will appreciate it if you refrain from making irrelevant comments, hence attempting to distract the ladies and the gentlemen who are debating the core issue.

Thank you for observing the requirements set forth by the publisher of the site and the author of this specific thread[namely yours truly].

-YT 

Ladies and Gents

Just a quick note to thank you all for your insightful and civilized comments and debates.

If I, at some point sound rather abrasive, I would like for you to forgive me with your generosity.

Subject of sanctions and war on our homeland is of extreme emotional subject for me. Not only because most of my siblings and family live in Iran, but also because every single person of that beautiful nation is my[our] extended family, our sisters, brothers, mothers and fathers.

How can we wish such a misery and death for them? How could we bring ourselves to a point that we could actively campaign for US or  any other country to sanction/starve our people, our EXTENDED family, our neighbors, our classmates?

This is what that does not compute with my logic.

Most respectfully

-YT 

Dear KouroshS - re-clarification

I am pleased you are not supporting sanctions.  If I assumed you did, that was because of what your comments implied to me.  You say I am mistaken, so I apologise gladly ;)  Perhaps, if I understand it now, you are saying there is no way people can communicate what they want because of the degree of repression.  Am I right?  If so, my response is that, just as now, during the period people were in the streets in their millions, or hundreds of thousands, the issue of sanctions was alive.  People shouted all sorts of 'dangerous' slogans over the heads of their leadership, they risked ... the stuff of nightmares .. but they shouted them.  However, no pro-sanctions slogans were shouted.  

The movement has not died and it is communicating still.  We do not hear any demands for sanctions.  If as you say, we never know what people believe and want because of the weight of the repression, then do you think it gives the outsiders the right to impose their own fantasies and wishes on 70 million?  People always find their own ways to organise and communicate.  They have always done so.  What will kill this movement is the paranoia (and truth?) that it is directed from outside, that there is outside interference, and the pressure of sanctions and threat of war.

You say you have family in Iran and you are against sanctions.  Why are you against sanctions?  Does your reason include human suffering? I would imagine that is why 'it has not happened in history that people demand sanctions on themselves'.  That does not require an opinion poll.  

You said in your previous mail that you should not be thought of as an agent.  I never called you an agent.  If you read though my mail, in response to all your comments, I have not returned derogatory remarks, and I have remained consistently civil and non-accusatory.  Not that I am always civil, I am not a Saint (thank God!) and can be a devil ;) but these discussions about sanctions and war are serious, they are about people's lives and in that, I want to understand and communicate and be 'proven wrong', and be listened to, rather than point scoring and narcissistic gratification.

Anyway, I better get on with some work now otherwise my boss will sanction me ;(  Good Day 

I don't hope anyone to get blocked

I am not hoping anyone to get blocked.

Fozoul khan part 2

"when was the last time a nation publicized its will of wanting to be sanctioned?"  And why do you imagine this to be?????!!!!

I am not asking you to tell me the reasons WHY they did not publicize such demands, I am saying It has never happened before, simply because it is rediculous to even imagine .

I am sorry. Ok. It is not entirely true. You are accusing me of being in favor of sanctions. I am not. My family is not wealthy at all and I have a lotta them that are still in iran. So that should spell out clearly why i am not in favor of it. You simply do not Know whether Anyone who is REALLY advocating for sanction, and not just because You Think They are, have any relative in iran or not. They could be saying it because like many of us they are frustrated. so to say that you are Absolutey right and No one has done it, seems a bit presumptous and not nice.

Ms.Hojatti

Ms.Hojatti,

Ma mokhlesim, vali bikhial

Just do not put your noise where it does not belong.

Happy 13

-YT 

FB jan

Khan or Khanoum, make your pick and that's fine with me.

Who's pointed guns at MRX1?!!!  

It is true that Mousavi and Karrubi have both spoken against sanctions. However it is not the case that people cannot speak differently and in favour of sanctions if they believed differently.  Neither Mousavi, nor Karrubi have spoken against Khamenei or openly questioned velaayat-e faghih, whereas people have!!!  People in their slogans have not taken heed of their leaders and have picked and evolved their own slogans, despite beatings, guns, imprisonment, torture and murder.  

I agree . Very true... But...

I agree that spontaneous movements dissipate and might take a long time to gather again.  I also agree that IRI is not going to hand over power!  

Besyar Khob... vali....

I am sorry I don't have easy solutions to dispose of the regime, I don't believe easy solutions exist. What I AM saying is that if sanctions of whatever kind were what people in Iran sought, they would demand them regardless of their leaders.  

How??? How??? You should have the answer for that one at least!

I imagine if some people started shouting sanctions slogans so that they catch and spread, they WILL NOT, because people DO KNOW that sanctions affect their lives and cause tremendous and real suffering, not because they can't think for themselves and can't say anything that Mousavi wouldn't say!  

SO shouting is out of the question. What other choices are left... even if we go by the assumption, or the fact that people have done the opposite of Mousavi and Karoubi's wishes.

Even if we wildly imagine that Mousavi or Karrubi supported sanctions, don't you think people would question the legitimacy and practicality of such an adventure and how they are going to affect their lives and livelihood?!  

Sure, I believe in their power. All i want to know is for those who claim that Had they wanted sanctions they would have found a way to announce it is to tell me How this can be done. Not Much Hashie raftan is really needed!

Who are these people we are talking about anyway?  Many people live in rural areas and provinces, many are marginalised in urban centers and have a subsistence existence.  Millions.  They live from day to day.  How do you think they fair a petroleum sanction? And do you think they would welcome it as liberating?!

If i answered,. Yes there could be possibly a few percentage, just a tiny little % that Might be Okay with it, Would I risk being labelled an agent? Because I really am not and just like the rest of you am a hardworking , Just-expressing-my-opinion type of guy.

 Any decision and organistion therefore HAS TO made in Iran by Iranians in THEIR OWN way.  There are people there who are intelligent, courageous, educated and capable of thought and organisation.  Why are we underestimating them and believe we can make decisions on their behalf?   We, despite our impatience, simply can't induce a revolution, we would more likely abort the movement by destructive interventions. Sanctions weaken the current movement rather than strengthen it or allow it to endure and mature.  

 it was not my intention to Undermine This hidden and potentially constructive and overthrowing power that Our nation possesses. And i just don't understand why you always have to adopt an attacking position and assume that Just because someone seems to be implying that he or she is for sanctions or thinks about it and weighs its ups and downs, Must be 1- in definite favor of such a move and 2- Must definitely not have any family members in iran or filthy rich.

Kourosh, we can't impose our wishes on reality.  It might take a long time for the regime to fall or for fundamental changes to take place. If that is the case, we can't push a process by wishful thinking, as Iranians outside the country?  Is it legitimate and just that we impose our fantasies and wishes on the lives of millions who are the real recipients of any outcome?

No we can't. And it WILL take a long time for these changes to take place. But wanting and being in favor of doing something from abroad should not autimatically translate in your mind as an outrageous gesture or as "imposition" of our wills on that of iranians inside. Frankly, There has not been an official survey of who wants or who does not want sanctions and of what kind, so We really can not be sure of ANYTHING since we don't have ANY FActs.

One additional question

Every one who is against love, affection and sincerity please say I.

-YT 

Love is in the air!

Let go of the negativity. Anahid come on why do you need to say that? Why goad people? Why hope for people to be banned? Let's just try to get along. 

u know why u were blocked for a while?

Not long before u were blocked, u made exact same comment about my contributions. Votes are now in and we both know how ic community feels a about my contribution. You on the other hand belittle others. This putting down of others did not escape Jahanshah last time. With the attitude you write these days and every day is getting worse, if you Don't change, I predict u will be blocked again.

Blue haired one

Blue haired one

Did we not decide to ignore the hatemongers? Give it up...............

-YT 

Kourosh Khan/Jaan:

I am of the belief that if Iranian really wanted sanction, they would start it themselves.  Strikes and boycotts are far more affective then sanctions, wouldn’t you think so.  Incidentally, I am for strikes and boycotts by Iranians.  During the last election, I did not believe in that election and thought the most effective way to vote, is by refusing to vote.

I am also of the belief that a Sanction that has not been sanctioned by the Iranian people will be ineffective and will only result in armed conflict between Iran and well US/Israel which the only winner of that is the military industrial complex with Iranian and Israeli people as the sure loosers.

Mehrdad

KouroshS - when was the last time?!

"when was the last time a nation publicized its will of wanting to be sanctioned?"  And why do you imagine this to be?????!!!! :)

Now I am gone ;) 

Dear KouroshS - "Bold-faced lie" ;(

I had said: "In fact, it is this simple reason that those who advocate sanctions (or war) NEVER address its impact on people, because they know of NONE who is real and dear".  

No it is not a "bold-faced lie".  I don't need to lie.  If it is not entirely true, fine.  However, very few people are in favour of sanctions. Those who do favour sanctions, perhaps such as yourself, need to think and use your imagination, if your family are not very wealthy. My family is not and like millions of others would suffer painfully ..  So the point I made remains true, NO-ONE who has supported sanctions, addressed its impacts on people, which means avoiding the real issue of suffering it causes.

That was the point I was making.

KouroshS -

Khan or Khanoum, take your pick and that's fine with me.

Who's pointed guns at MRX1?!!!  

It is true that Mousavi and Karrubi have both spoken against sanctions. However it is not the case that people cannot speak differently and in favour of sanctions if they believed differently.  Neither Mousavi, nor Karrubi have spoken against Khamenei or openly questioned velaayat-e faghih, whereas people have!!!  People in their slogans have not taken heed of their leaders and have picked and evolved their own slogans, despite beatings, guns, imprisonment, torture and murder.  

I agree that spontaneous movements dissipate and might take a long time to gather again.  I also agree that IRI is not going to hand over power!  

I am sorry I don't have easy solutions to dispose of the regime, I don't believe easy solutions exist. What I AM saying is that if sanctions of whatever kind were what people in Iran sought, they would demand them regardless of their leaders.  

I imagine if some people started shouting sanctions slogans so that they catch and spread, they WILL NOT, because people DO KNOW that sanctions affect their lives and cause tremendous and real suffering, not because they can't think for themselves and can't say anything that Mousavi wouldn't say!  

Even if we wildly imagine that Mousavi or Karrubi supported sanctions, don't you think people would question the legitimacy and practicality of such an adventure and how they are going to affect their lives and livelihood?!  

Who are these people we are talking about anyway?  Many people live in rural areas and provinces, many are marginalised in urban centers and have a subsistence existence.  Millions.  They live from day to day.  How do you think they fair a petroleum sanction? And do you think they would welcome it as liberating?!

Any decision and organistion therefore HAS TO be made in Iran by Iranians in THEIR OWN way.  There are people there who are intelligent, courageous, educated and capable of thought and organisation.  Why are we underestimating them and believe we can make decisions on their behalf?   We, despite our impatience, simply can't induce a revolution, we would more likely abort the movement by destructive interventions. Sanctions weaken the current movement rather than strengthen it or allow it to endure and mature.   

Kourosh, we can't impose our wishes on reality.  It might take a long time for the regime to fall or for fundamental changes to take place. If that is the case, we can't push a process by wishful thinking, as Iranians outside the country?  Is it legitimate and just that we impose our fantasies and wishes on the lives of millions who are the real recipients of any outcome?

What I AM saying is that the decision lies with the people in Iran and with or without internet, satellite, mobile phones and twitter, they would find their own ways to communicate their demands, as they did under the Shah, and as they have done in the recent demonstrations. We just need to make sure their movement is not stolen by those who do not share their interests and their movement is not crushed by the destructive effects of sanctions and war. 

It is my bed time now.  Good night.  We'll catch up later if you wish. 

Mehrdad khan

How would they express those wishes, supposing that was indeed  their wish? That was the gist of MRX1's point and i think he is right.Pleading for sanctions by foreign governments and starting a wave of internal strikes are two totally different things. Besides, when was the last time a nation publicized its will of wanting to be sanctioned?

Again you are asking me the question that i do not know the answer to and would like to find out. Look. I would like to know even if they want sanctions so badly and think that is the only way to go, How would they or should they go asking for it???

An observation

I noticed that Fred isn't responding to your call for Iranians to gather here. He's always hanging out on the dark side of the moon. At least with that monker.

and we sepeculate thusly

[Don't you think if Iranian people (inside Iran) desired sanction and
thought their problem would be solved by the outside world's
interference, ]

That is were the major problems lie............ We speculate, we assume, we think without any firm foundations that we are, in abroad, ever so educated, knowledgeable, ever so brilliant that, we ever so arrogantly decide the course a nation that has been suffering for 30 some odd years.

Keep it up boys, they are listening to us in Iran, Ghosh be farman hastan................

-YT 

Kourosh Khan/Jan:

 Don't you think if Iranian people (inside Iran) desired sanction and thought their problem would be solved by the outside world's interference, then they wouldn't some how express that? Don't you think if that was the case, they would start by strikes and boycotts themselves?

Is it our logic that they really want sanction and war, well every one knows war is to follow the sanction, but they really don't know how to ask for it or afraid of the consequences of asking for it? Are we really to believe that this is the wish of Iranian people?

Mehrdad

FB

The end part of your last posting is such a bold faced Lie. I am sorry to say that. I am not a die-hard advocate of sanctions, But Virtually every single one of us have someone real andear to us who still lives in iran. Perhaps less than 5% have absolutely no family members in iran.

It is very wrong to emphasize on that one reason only.

They will all return

Everyone always returns to Iranian.com. Jahanshah knows this! I think it is healthy to take breaks. You did this too captain, and I'm sure it helped. 

Team work!

No to sanctions! No to wars! Yes to Americans leading by example and cleaning up their own messes before threatening others. Stop wasting our tax monies!

Marge............... My favorite Blue Haird Lady

You absolutely have no reason to apologies to me. 

As my fighting sister, one thing that I have always admired about you has been your sincerity and honesty.

When you address me, I ask you that you do not hold back..............  challenge me, for I am not here to gain popularity and vote. For I am here to make a point and pay my dues.

This site has got few honest and sincere contributors left, YOU, Fouzul Bashi, Mardom Mazloom, MM, Marhoume E LANNATY E Kharmagas, Ostaad who is yet to come back, and many that skip me..

Get my point?

-YT 

Capt. you are correct that ...

lives of 70 million human beings are at stake and consideration of  suffering of other human beings should not be conditional upon whether or not they are close to one.  

However, there is no doubt that having family members or people close to you in calamitous circumstances, has a different reality to it.  What I meant was that people who do feel a real connection to the place, cannot conceive of sanctions as a solution because there is no escaping or luxury of not knowing the reality of pain and suffering.  

In fact, it is this simple reason that those who advocate sanctions (or war) NEVER address its impact on people, because they know of NONE who is real and dear. 

 Thank you for your blog. 

Logical solution

Fozoul bashi khan(um?)

Mrx1 is making a valid point and i think instead of poiting our guns toward him and put him on the spot in order to find out whether he holds the same position regarding other governments, we should really think about this. People did indeed come out in masses and put themselves in harm's way, They did use Twitters and facebook etc...to get their message across  But that was for a different purpose.

To ask for sanctions of any forms requires a whole different method of communications, Keep in mind as well that this was a movement that was built upon a strategy or a series of strategies  outlined mostly by Mousavi and Karoubi and other quasi-leaders of the time. They all pushed for goal and one purpose.

Do you think that they feel the same way toward sanctions, Knowing that they have declared their negative sentiments on it numerous times? It is a real hard decision for everyone to make. Yet at the same time, IF the IRI continues with arrests and hangings and etc... everytime there is an uprising and demonstration, we will never be able to get rid of them. You think they (IRI)are gonna get tired of playin this game., Think again

Ms. Hojjati

After I re visited your comment on this thread, I paid a regretful visit to ALL of your submissions in past few months.

I have an advice for you.............. Before you attempt to guide people on what to say i.e.

===================

//iranian.com/main/blog/capt-ayhab/plea-all-true-iranians-and-true-human-beings

[by profile.">Anahid Hojjati on Tue Mar 23, 2010
01:11 PM PDT
Captain, don't forget all the atrocities committed by IRI.  I have in
fact more faith in Obama than IRI leaders.]

====================

I suggest you take a look at your contributions to the cause before you render judgment on the others.

Hopefully Ms. Hojjati we are ever so clear on our double talking's.

Respectfully

-YT