www.facebook.com/iransecularii

amirkabear4u

That is a useful outline of TO DO LISTS that you have made. Thank you for sharing it : 

iranian.com/main/2008/art-dealing-people

EVERY ONE

It is a good idea to keep it simple but then you are dealing with a country and a nation which been influenced by outsiders since 17th century.

It start by the british and french untill 19th century. Then the russians joined in. In 20th century americans followed by israelis. Don't get me wrong there is still a lot to be saved. Therefore there are a lot more to be done and if you want to get the feel of how much works needs to be done you can refer to:

Art of dealing with people

on this site. I think this is a brief list of actions needs to be taken. Trust me if it was easy the others would have done it by now.

Stats

 Great Observation darisuh

In fact almost everyone was in support, no oppositions and a couple who were not sure if Iranians are capable of it but liked the princiapals.

(only one unregistered id , who continues following my blogs and rediculing them under different id's.)

 Dariush Kadivar, Teapot, Hamvatan, Irandokht, Amirkabear4u, maziar 58, Majid, Kaveh Nouraee, ebi amirhosseini, Khar, sbglobe, Pandora, sickofiri, Abarmard, nonpartisan, sdjf, dariush

Thank you Mehdi and Crush for your inputs

Let's expand on this here and on future blogs.

So far

Just for the sake of being part of your effort ,I made a list of people who has so far contributed to  the idea .There are 40  comments  but the real head count is 17 including Marge .

1-I think it would be a good idea to keep this blog open and see how many are supporting the idea .

2-T he group start to explain and summarizes its goal and its constitution to  the  public.

3-May be  add a small questionaire to the blog and ask people few questions such as

a.Would you like to join?

b.Would you like to contribute?

c.Would you be willing to spread the word to other Iranians and relatives in Iran?

4-Keep track of all the traffics.

This is just an idea , but you can count me in

Good Luck

LOL Kaveh. How can you say that?!

So many Iranians sacrificed themselves when Iraq invaded Iran. Iranians will fight, but there's some battles NOT worth fighting. 

The problem is, there is no generals - don't you dare mention Reza Pahlavi either - most Iranians are working and busy with making a living/family. Politics and revolution isn't their primary concern. Maybe if the economy in Iran gets bad enough, they'll do it. Don't hold your breath!

Kaveh

There will be no generals. Those who will put themselves above these principals and not join exist both in regime and in opposition but that is a choice they will make.

Isn't it interesting that some of us worry so much about how others might act and what others think before we think about how we might act and what our own positions and our roles can be if such attempt at unity comes about?  

It's the common principals that will act as the glue that bonds us together.

Everyone is in charge of himself or herself, own cells, own group , own parties etc and in charge of their own setting. The ideologies, religions, politics and even approaches do not have to be the same either.

As the first step WE do agree that we ALL want the same principals.

My Hamvatan Mehdi :

- I disagree that people in Iran do not "understand" human rights. Ask the friends and families who live in a little village near Caspian sea whose child is facing execution and hundreds who try to help save the juvenile. Ask the family of the girl who gets kicked in the back for having her Hijab slightly pulled back. Ask the family of the university student from a small town who is deprived from studying because he attended demonstrations. Human right when it comes to its core is a natural instinct of self defense and preservation. As clearly as I one can see, I see the current regime as the primary cause of Iran's internal and international miseries, On other hand I also disagree that the current regime is politically less democratic than the last one. There are definitely less social freedoms but there is more room for political expression. Of course that should not be confused with crediting the regime but crediting Iranians whose voices can no longer be fully silenced because people tolerance and awareness today are much different than the past . 

If you do , then that’s a start for unity. You can support your strategy of getting THERE (NIAC or whatever it might be) and I can have mine , but that should not prevent us from agreeing and uniting that we both want the same thing.

Doing Nothing Will Not Work Either

It seems that there are disagreements in what we think the people of Iran want. I sure do not know since I have not lived there for more than 30 years (except occasional visits) but I (like most people) have family and friends – so I have some idea an/or insights as what (I think) people want. However, I never would consider my option as what people want accurate. As luck had it, just last night I saw two Iranian Documentaries in DC area (for those are you who are in this area it was in Freer Gallery) and I thought both movies were very well made. I am copying short description of these movies below -  I am sure most of us with young nieces (or any young relatives) could related to these  innocent young ladies on “Dream of Silk”– it was a common “wanting” – Personal Freedom and Happiness  within all these young ladies - I feel that I can take that to a bank. If you get a change to see any of these movies – I am willing to bit that you would feel your time was well spent!  

In Dream of Silk, director Nahid Rezai returns to her high school twenty-five years later to explore the lives of young girls in contemporary Tehran. In this candid exploration of their dreams and hopes, the girls are at times shockingly open, often sweet, and occasionally sad as they talk about the future.
Iran / 2003 / 43 min. / video / Persian with English subtitles

I'm certain that there are

I'm certain that there are other sisters, brothers and relatives in Iran who disagree with your sisters and relatives in Iran. Neither represent the truth and can't replace scientific method of gatherin data...anectodal recall as far as I know has not made it into a scientific discipline yet...lol

Most proponent of the regime are anti-science and anti-intellectual and it shows.

Where do I get my data?

I get it from my sisters, parents, relatives and sometimes I watch videos or read articles. I am basing my estimates on what I see or hear. But you don't seem to disagree with my estimates. You just don't like them. Are you saying my estimates about what most people in Iran think (and not just Tehranis) are wrong? Why?

Now, as to let's ask people or concepts such as human rights, etc, I never said these things are bad or good. I just said these concepts are quite meaningless to people in Iran and if anything they don't like it. Unlike what you seem to imply, this has ALMOST nothing to do with the regime. It is a cultural thing - educational issue. People DID in fact have a more democratic regime in place and they kicked it out and brought in a religious regime. Today I ask around and what I see is that by far the majority of people are QUITE happy with this regime. They only "whine" a little to see if they can get something more. They want changes here and there - like any other country. But by far the majority of people in Iran do NOT want a regime change - only "slight" changes. Yes, this is my opinion and based on what I explained earlier. Do you disagree?

I think in fact you see yourself in a position of authority to change either the regime or the people. I don't even have any disagreement with that! I am all for change towards betterment. I want many of the changes that you want, if you can believe it. The difference is mainly in approach and strategy. You don't seem to have a clear strategy but mostly support antagonistic blind attacks on the regime as your main solution. I even don't have a "serious" problem with the "concept." The thing that I know is that there is no powerful force in the world today who is qualified to act as such authority and the powers that do exists, such as George Bush and similar clowns are insane criminals who have been given huge powers and if authorized, under any excuse, will inevitably create a much greater disaster than the original problem (look at Iraq and Afghanistan).

Short of such powerful authority, your "solution" does in fact shrink down to what I named it - a pipe dream. There is no way to bring this about anytime soon. No real strategy could be designed based on it. You add the step "organize." This is a step forward. Now you are at the point where most organizations have failed. I wish you luck, but I don't see any details as to how you are going to bring your dream even vaguely close to reality. I think by the time you get anywhere with it, people in Iran have already figured it out on their own!

Just to have a point of comparison, my solution is what NIAC has taken up. Let's end the US-Iran fight and take away Mullah's excuse for all problems and let's allow people of different cultures to exchange ideas and have commerce, etc. You don't need to change their religion or anything. Everything will simply fall into place and there is no need to get antagonistic. That's a doable strategy!

I think everyone needs to

I think everyone needs to read this booka on organizing grass root groups:

Taking On the System: Rules for Radical Change in a Digital Era (Hardcover)
by Markos Moulitsas Zuniga (Author)

//www.amazon.com/Taking-System-Radical-Change...

Where to start? How to develop our message; based on what critieria? What are short-term and long-tgerm objectives? Quantify those objectives with concrete action!

Let me know what you think.

David ET

As much as I really like your train of thought on this matter as do others, how effectively do you believe it can be implemented when there is such a prevalent mindset in our culture where everyone wants to be in charge?

Everyone wants to be a general, while no one wants to be a foot soldier.

Great point Abarmard

In order to implement the 3rd point:

3- ORGANIZE

we Iranians must form an ORGANIZATION, a plaform, a campaign, ....... or whatever name it will be decided to be called.

I am sure millions of Iraniana (known and unknown) will join and contribute too...

Good idea

If there is such organization, I would join and contribute.

Avoid DISTRACTIONS

Problem with ID "Iranian gay" and alike is not that they have a different point of view.

The probelm is that they do not want others to say or do anything either! They even so wholeheartedly oppose and redicule anyone who may have anything to say or anyone who want or do anything !!

Which then it makes their intention and "connections" questionable!

But like I said in main post, it is best to avoid the "distractions" which has , is and will be the tools of the Islamic Regime to prevent UNITY:

2- UNITE based on the common principals that brings us together instead of distractions and exclusions that divide us 

Mehdi

You write : "I think you ask people in Iran, most of them do NOT want separation of religion and state."

Great idea let's ask them and give them a chance to express and state their opinion instead of relying on YOU to say what "YOU" think they think!!! until then your comment on your behalf translates to :" I Mehdi do not want separation of religion and state and prefer the Islamic Republic option"

You write: "I think most people in Iran feel that they have all the freedom of expression that they need - except when they want to complain about their income (whining). The definitely do NOT want most of what you consider freedom of expression."

Again you are talking for people of Iran and I am not sure with what authority or based on what data!! Also asking for equal opportunities, liveable income, growth potential, employment, labor rights, retirement and pensions and other benefits , is not "whining" but the rights of people. Other things such as the right to speak one's mind (as YOU are exercising here!!) is as much your right as anyone else's and the right of "most people of Iran" ! Your comment really reads as : " I Mehdi do have good income and I think others should not whine about theirs. I Mehdi have the right to express my views which are in support of Islamic Republic and it is OK to imprison, torture and execute those who do not agree"

 You write:"  Most people in Iran do NOT want gender equality - even women. They believe that's wrong and dishonorable."

Again, why not allow people to decide for themselves than YOU and IR tell them what they want! You say women in Iran don't want equal rights! they want to receive half of the inheritance! they want to be compensated 1/2 of a man! and they want to be counted as 1/4 of a man as a witness! or talk for yourself and say  "I Mehdi do not want women in Iran to have equal legal rights as a man. I see my honor as a man in seeing a woman being legally recognized inferior to me"

Mehdi you write: "I think you are very disassociated from people in Iran. You have no understanding of the society - only your western view. "

Mehdi! Somehow you "think" that you KNOW what " most people in Iran" want and you feel very associated with them and feel others who stand for the internationally accepted human rights are disassociated ! But in facts  such rights are fruits of 1000's of years of struggle around the WORLD (East and West) which were combined to internationally accepted norms and INTERNATIONAL conventions that Islamic Republic has RATIFIED AND SIGNED!! Therefore those who do not respect them are "disassociated" from the rest of the world and humanity and its principals.

But you even go further and state: :" Territorial integrity , Independence These, I think are quite meaningless to most people in Iran. I think if you ask, you'll see very different viewpoints on what these two even mean." !!!!!

Are you saying Iranians do not understand or defend or care about their borders and country and nationalism is meaningless to them?   Didn't you see Iranians of different point of views stood up and died to defend their nation during Iraq war. On the other hand I do agree with you that to those in Islamic Republic territorial integrity and nationalism is "meaningless" as they care about themselves and their version of Islam and not about Iran.

As for independence being "meaningless " to people of Iran...Did you forget that 30 years ago the first two demands of people in the streets where FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE ? Mehdi, protecting Iran's integrity and independence are NOT "meaningless" and that is why despite 200 of Islam's rule,  Iran and Persian language still exists. Again I suggest you talk for yourself and say " I Mehdi , think Territorial Integrity and Independence of Iran are meaningless"

Mehdi! Territorial Integrity and independence of a country, freedom to express one's view, equal rights and opportunity for all humans regardless of gender and human rights are NOT WESTERN VALUES, they are HUMAN VALUES, respected and agreed to by "Most" HUMANS !

Iranians women and men too deserve to be treated like "human" , why do you oppose these human principals or think most Iranian do not want such basic human principals?!!!!!

Mehdi! If you too want what "most people of Iran" want , then why you oppose their freedom to express it !!!!! 

GLOATING IS OVER

""The Iranian regime is no longer gloating over the U.S. financial crisis. Instead, the monstrous mullahocracy is plainly worried about its own financial meltdown.

Oil revenues, which make up 80 percent of Iran's foreign earnings, are falling sharply. The price of oil has collapsed to less than $60 a barrel, with some experts predicting it could fall as low as $50.

The Iranian budget is expected to record a sizeable deficit; and the downturn is certain to aggravate already volatile social tensions. Up to 20 percent of the Iranian population do not have regular work, while price increases have averaged 29 percent this year.

The Islamist regime has forced banks to lend at interest rates far below inflation. As a result, just when businesses and farmers need emergency lines of credit, the banking system is short of available capital. The credit crunch will have a particularly severe impact in rural areas, where crops have been devastated due to drought.""

Mehdi's Wishful thinkings!

The regime obivously does not believe in any of its own scripted propaganda talking points.

**if they did they would not have to spend so much money on, lobbies, censroship, propaganda, crackdown on women's hejab and equal rights movement, hanging, stoning, torturing, arresting, and Islamisation programs;

**If they did they would allow a referendum on the issue of sepration of church and state;

Iranians are kept in the dark just like in N. Korea. They are fed lies and distortions about everything. If they knew the extent of what the mullahs have done to their country, the mullahs will not last more than a month.

Not a solution - more like pipe dream

• Separation of Religion and State

I think you ask people in Iran, most of them do NOT want separation of religion and state. So I am not sure how you plan to change their minds.

• Freedom of Expression

I think most people in Iran feel that they have all the freedom of expression that they need - except when they want to complain about their income (whining). The definitely do NOT want most of what you conside freedom of expression.

• Gender Equality

Again, most people in Iran do NOT want gender equality - even women. They believe that's wrong and dishonorable.

• Human Rights

I think most people in Iran feel that they have all the rights the need - maybe except for the right to have more money ;)

I think you are very disassociated from people in Iran. You have no understanding of the society - only your western view.

• Territorial integrity
• Independence

These, I think are quite meaningless to most people in Iran. I think if you ask, you'll see very different viewpoints on what these two even mean.

Okay go ahead. Unite! This

Okay go ahead. Unite! This road and it is long! Good luck!

Iranians YES WE CAN! Too!

David Jan: Notice, that

David Jan: Notice, that "Iranian gay" is here to distract and derail the discussion. He is a troll who is peddling his reformers agenda without having the spine to admit it.

He/she does not understand that you can't reform a scorpian not to sting or stop producing venom.

He erroneously believes that he can work within the system as if Iran is a democracy.

The mullahs wipe their butt with the Iranian constitution and have never respected any laws, domestic or internationa.

They make laws of thier own as they go.

Or as if the mullahs are not aware that "reforming" the system will spell their doom and and the end of iron grip hold on power; as if we have forgotten how their hero, Khatami, presided over some of the most ruthless killing in his adminstration.

These reformers are either duped or choose to stay willingly ignorant.

None of these reformers have provided any logical arguments as to why people should back their position. All they do is engage in generalities and vague sloganeering.

Don't fall into their trap.

Ladies and Gentleman: The House is on fire and the reformers wants us to redocrate...pathetic

Simple?! Can you stick with

Simple?! Can you stick with simple? EVERYTHING is simple when it is first mentioned. It is one thing to be simple and totally another to consider people "simple".

Simple in the case of national unity doesn't cut it. Simple was death to the king. The era for simple has gone bye.

You want simple? You stick with individual issues like women's rights. Solve one problem and move to next one. Of course if finding solution to one single problem satisfies (y)our ego.

If not and you want to load watermellons under our arms or find big stones for target practice, well do I have a slogan for you;

Iranians YES WE CAN! TOO!

What's wrong w/ SIMPLE?!!

I sent this to be posted as an article to be discussed by more readers but I guess it did not qualify because it was not filled with words and was too simple!! So I ended up posting in the blog which thankfully was featured.

Anyway I hope in future iranian.com consider the content of a post than the number of words it contains.

Actually it is still not too late to repost this in the main articles section if enough people ask for it. 

David ET you say tomato they

David ET you say tomato they say tomAto. As I said they literally say they do not want to separate Church and state but on the other stuff they say sure, we have those freedoms in Iran.

Again this is simplification of the problem. I don't like akhoonds, so f***'em. Let's have unity so we can f*** things up ourselves!

You think you're going to adhere to these principles? says who? since when?

Iranian YES WE CAN! Too! LOL!

next: ROAD MAP

Teapot: Lets discuss that here and in the next blog.

Iranian gay: After past 30 yaers , No HONEST person can deny the fact that Islamic Republic does not meet either of the following : Separation of Religion and State

Freedom of Expression  (closed newspapers, filtered internet, etc, etc)

Gender Equality (1 man= 2women , etc etc...see 1 million signature campaign demands)

Human Rights (child executions, political prisoners, religious and minority prosecutions , stoning, etc etc)

sbglobe: I agree we can keep it simple and come up with SOLUTIONS. The easy to understand ROAD MAP can start right here if we believe in ourselves. i will disuss the ROAD MAP on the next blogs but your inputs are needed. 

Pandora: What is important is that Iran's CONSTITUTION and LAWS respect all the above principals and then it is up to people to assure that OUR government comply with those principals with proper checks and balances. Thereafter achieving all those goals is a journey We first need the proper FOUNDATION (constitution) to re-build our home based on those common princiipals.

Actions speak louder than words

Well said, or should I say "well written".  How many of us really truly believe in ourselves?  As I read your solutions and started imagining a modern normal Iran with all the points you mentionned, I started to wonder about how many years (or should I say centuries) will it take to achieve all this.  Can you name one country that has achieved every single "principal"?

KISS

It seems that there are enough “smarts” right here to come up with concrete steps and a road map of how to achieve this “solution 101” – I bet we can follow the KISS - - "Keep It Simple Stupid”

David Jaan...

My dear friend! Dude, you just formulated the Democratic and Progressive Iran of tomorrow! I'm all for it my good man, where do I sign up. THIS IS VERY DOABLE!  Thanks.

With the exception of the

With the exception of the Separation of Religion and State, IRI believes in all other priciples listed. This is like treating us as if we are Sarah Palin!

We are way beyond Solution 101. WAY beyond! We are in Advanced Calculus 505. First order of business decide what logo should be in the white area of the Iranian flag. Looks like yours is a litany of complaints!

Iranians YES WE CAN! Too! LOL!!!

David Jaan

You said it all in your first line:

1- BELIEVE in ourselves 

sepaas