No Fear

Get informed, Because you're clueless...

The current constitution of iran, makes any attempt at changing the constitution an act of treason. Punishable by death. Read it to learn that...

....THERE IS NO 2.0!!!!

Given that, what do you propose? ANY suggestion that we need to change Iran's constitution, however peaceful and poetic and sublimely done with respect for those who would disrespect human life and dignity, is illegal. Again, punishable by death.

So if you are suggesting that we need to simply talk softly and respectfully to a power that would just as soon crush you to be safe, I would say that I would like to see you try that approach and see what happens.

I don't think it will go well.

While violence is not the answer either, I think a more focused and massive soft and smart revolution is definitely called for. A campaign of non-stop, non-violent opposition tactics and mass population tricks that average everyday Iranians can do without getting into too much personal danger.

Things like refusing to vote in any elections that would perpetuate and legitimize the status quo.

Like refusing to go to work for a month after Ramazan.

Like sit ins, and non-violent protests that bog down and exhaust the "Authorities" with heavy to haul away protesters who do not resist arrest but go limp and do not get up and into the police vans on their own, and have to be carried and dragged away.

Stuff that infuriates the cops but doesn't ever give them a good enough reason to start wholesale carnage.

At the end of the day, EVIN has a limited number of prison cells, the basijis and Revolutionary Guard have a limited number of vans to haul people away in, and a surprisingly small number of Iranians who don't hit back, can overwhelm the logistics, arresting paperwork, and general command and coordination of the process of the authorities trying to control "bad elements".

As long as you don't get shot, you can make it very difficult and frustrating for an arresting officer, just by answering slowly, dragging your feet, and by simply not moving all too quickly whenever ordered to do so.

And it's a lot of fun to watch a pasdar or basiji lose his mind but not be able to hit you, because you're not resisting his order. Just obeying it very slowly.

Where does he

Get all this energy to Singly go about taking on all these questions??:) 

There will be no perestroika or glasnost with the IRI

The IRI will not "evolve" or "reform" towards a free, democratic government. It's either Regime Change or one should accept the IRI for the glorious thing that it is and learn to appreciate the artistry and beauty of its killings, stonings, whippings, and tortures.

NO Fear

Supporting a velvet revolution is what precisely was warned about/against  by the government. Every effort was made in order to prevent this. So what is with the Argument? You are still wondering about that?

 No. It is not what is happening Now! A systematic revolution can not even take place Velvet or otherwise so long as there is all forms of Prohibitionary forces. How could the skirmishes between two varioius and massively unpopular fractions amount to this?

Breaking taboos while under suprvision? Do you even think it is possible? I guess merely entertaining the thought would keep you happy, regardless of whether it is being actualized or not.

Amir

IRI thugs smashed windows of homes, cars, satellite dishes, air
conditioning units, etc in retaliation for residents showing moral
support or protecting unarmed demonstrators

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbuPA5_Jypw

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKCjbGkVTrE&feature...

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzkHJNC-Kss&feature...

Riot indeed.

Science of revolution

The fallacy of this argument is revealed by the inevitability of revolutions. When the right ingredients are in place, a revolution will happen regardless of any individual preferences regarding its occurrence. 

If we look at the failure of the Russian revolution of 1905 against the success of the 1917 revolution, we see a revolution can be neither forced nor prevented when its necessary elements are in place. States have learned from the history of the past several centuries that they must create enough safety apparati inside society to prevent the outbreak of full-scale revolutions. However, this merely delays, rather than prevents, such an outbreak. 

visit....//www.ipinst.org/

If it wasn't a riot, where is it today?

It's right there in Iran.  In schools, in homes and mosques.  After all the threats, arrests, beatings and killing people may not be as public now.  But It's still there.  We are still here discussing it and its rammifcations for Iran.  There was an anniversary for it.  There are more anniversities coming up.  This doesn't happen for 'riots'.  It didn't even start in 2009, it started in 1999 and perhaps eariler. It's always been there, you're just afraid to acknowledge it.

It's pretty obvious that you've put on a new pathetic fascade to appear legitimate.  But it seems noone is falling for it except yourself.  Why else would you call a movement which peacefully brought out millions of people, only to be met with batons and bullets, a riot.

Do us a favor, don't come back to your silly topic because you obviously don't know enough about revolutions, and have very little interest in changing the powers that pay you.  

No Fear,

I can not imagine that i have justified using violence to exert pressure on an " Internal " rival.

To support the IRI is to support 31 years (and continuing) of violence against Iranians from all walks of life to come to power and maintain it. To say otherwise is hypocritical to the core.

i did say those who are setting cars on fires and distroying public assets, must be dealt with accordingly. To me the last year green movement was nothing more than a riot. If it wasn't a riot, where is it today?

IRI thugs committed far more violence and destruction in coming to power in '79 (the bloodiest single incident of the revolution was the burning by Islamist arsonists of the Cinema Rex, which killed over 400 people). My own relatives in Iran and a number of videos and statements by people in Iran have attested to the fact that last year IRI thugs smashed windows of homes, cars, satellite dishes, air conditioning units, etc in retaliation for residents showing moral support or protecting unarmed demonstrators. 

I also advocate the use of violence against those who have chosen armed struggle against Iran. They have chosen to live by the bullet and they shall die by a bullet. Its the rule that they have accepted. once you take a life for political gain, prepare to give yours instead.

Once again, that would indicate that many parties are entitled to exercise violence against the IRI since it came to power in '79 in part due to armed struggle against the then legal government of Iran (weapons depots were raided; generals were assassinated; others were "tried" in kangaroo courts; and summarily executed).

Violence must be condemned when its against our people or the government. Neither has any rights to use violence as a mean of making a political point. Using violence to undermine an election is just as bad as using violence to eliminate opposition. Both approaches are wrong and should be condemned.

Where have you been for the past 31 years? The IRI government is the most violent one against the Iranian people in recent Iranian history, and this violence has been practiced by both of the major Khomeinist cliques, including the one currently in power. One cannot support the IRI without supporting violence against the Iranian people. It is morally and logically inconsistent, even if you say it isn't.

I understand you need to contact

and update the ministry of intelligence everyday, so I will wait patiently. :P

NF

First, answer this question: Who killed Neda Agha Soltan?

Second- You ask where's the Green Movement?  Here's what happened (which you know very well, but pretend not to know): your regime killed, shot and beat people on the streets.  It then imprisoned more, where some of them were raped, tortured and killed.  Others were subjected to humiliating show trials which resulted in absurd prison sentences.  The then threatened to do some or all of the above to everyone else who demonstrated or said anything.  People then went into hiding for fear of their lives.  people like you then came out and claimed victory and said that there is no opposition in Iran, or that the opposition is dead or it wasn't as big as it was, or was a foreign conspiracy, or other absurdities.  

If you really want to know what happened to the millions of people who protested in the streets last year call your bosses in Iran and tell them to declare that no one will be arrested, beaten, shot or jailed if they demonstrate.  Then see what happens.  I guaranty you that you will see all of those people.  

Claiming that there is no opposition after a violent crackdown is laughable, and is one of the oldest tricks in the book used by every Tom, Dick and Harry despot and dictator.   

taking a break now

I will return to continue this debate. Please stay within the topic.

I will start with thexmaster upon return

killing protesters is wrong and the IRI

will receve justice by the people who have been wronged. Rapists and their victms are not equal. 

peaceful protests are part of human rights.IRI and their victims are by no means equal. 

No Fear

Many uprisings and revolutions happen spontaniously and their goal is an unalienable right to freedom from the status quo.  I see ideologies more structured and concrete, though they are also goal oriented.  Examples are valayet-in-fiqeh and communism.  The velvet revolution, and the the green movement I dont see as concrete idealogies except for the need to be free from the status quo, which one has ultimately lead to a democratic system. 

afshinazad,

For now, we have to live with a velayate fagih as a " religious leader" of Iran and accept what his roles are based on our constitutions.

There are organs and institute within IR structures that can put pressure on VF to change its characteristics.

Are you willing to live with a VF that does not interfere in our politics?

Would you support religious organizations who advocate this?

no fear

چشم میگیند ملت بشینند و امام زمان خامنعه ای و انتری همه را سرویس کنند.مگر سال ۵۷ این مزدورها سینما رکس را اتش نزدند و با اسلحه تو خیابانها سربازها نمیزدند .بله انقلاب نه, چون مردم ایران کجا و ازادی کجا و بله الان که مشخص شد امام زمان خامنعه ای هستش و خودمان را اماده کرده ایم که خودکشی جمعی را شورع کنیم. شما خودتان را اصلأ نارحت نکنیید,

OnlyIran,

Aside from keeping my cool in these debates, i can't see any significant changes in my political thoughts. I have learnt to listen to opposing views and i have always used Logic and rationale as my guidelines.

I can not imagine that i have justified using violence to exert pressure on an " Internal " rival.

i did say those who are setting cars on fires and distroying public assets, must be dealt with accordingly. To me the last year green movement was nothing more than a riot. If it wasn't a riot, where is it today?

I also advocate the use of violence against those who have chosen armed struggle against Iran. They have chosen to live by the bullet and they shall die by a bullet. Its the rule that they have accepted. once you take a life for political gain, prepare to give yours instead.

Khaleh Mosheh,

Violence must be condemned when its against our people or the government.

neither has any rights to use violence as a mean of making a political point.

Using violence to undermine an election is just as bad as using violence to eliminate opposition. Both approaches are wrong and should be condemned.

OnlyIran

This is the same "No Fear" who has justified violence and violent
crackdown on protesters last year, has said that Neda's death was BBC's
job, and until a month ago could not write a simple paragraph without
using the words a*s and s**t.

Perhaps he/she has had their own revolution.

Where is you alter-ego?

There is a curious absence of your alter-ego (Sargord Pirouz) on this thread or have I missed something?

FR

thexmaster,

You argued in this thread that Revolutions don't require " ideologies",  they simply require a goal.

Then you argued that it is possible to achieve " democratic " governments after revolutions by giving examples.

This points to an ideological requirement which is " democratic rights". This needs to be defined under a ideological requirement.

Do you see the contradiction? if not , explain.

PS: Unrelated subjects to this thread topic will be ignored.

Why not support a velvet revolution which offers a gradual...

GOOD F%KEN GRIEF!

The velvet revolution lasted for like a month!  Here, read:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution

The green movement tried this, with millions coming out.   Even the term velvet revolution was trembling off the mouths of the mullahs.  But the unreformable dogs were released arresting, beating, raping and murdering their fellow countryman.  Your self-righteous and arrogant leaders don't want to go anywhere if they can help it.   

Troneg,

Okay, lets say some revolution ( Riots ) don't require an ideology, how about a "leader"  then?

In the absence of an ideology, strong leadership is required to organize the mases. don't you agree?

COP,

Sorry , missed your comment.

Why not support a velvet revolution which offers a gradual and step to step progress? Isn't this what is happening now? A faction supported by the military is pushing aside religious clergies from positions of power? Lets face it, the ruling clerical class were incompetent and many in iran have noticed this.

i am glad that you believe violence is not the answer.

I support Ahmadinejad because as a activist who believes in gradual changes, he offers the best chances to change the status quo. i will change my avatar when the next presidential campaign is due.  i tell you right now that i will be voting for the candidate which has the best chances of breaking more taboos and the will to implement new changes. Oh... he must not be a leftist.

How can you reform a government where their leader claims

he has the same power and influence as Muhammad.

Question: Please explain about “obedience of
velayat-e-faqih”. In other words, how should we act so that we know we
have belief in and have full obedience to the successor of the hidden
Imam?

Answer: “Velayat-e faghih” means the rule of cleric who has the right
requirements in the age of absence [of the 12th Shia Imam]. It is a
branch of the rule of the saints [Shia Imams] and the same as the rule
of the Prophet. As long as you obey the commands of the ruler of the
Muslims [the Supreme Leader], it shows that you have full obedience to
that.

NOFEAR

I am happy we have a understanding,if we have the goverment would compromise but I don't see any from this Regime,since khamenie is calling himself a god and he is asking for obay or get crushed.

as I mentioned before goverment with IRG or Basij are not a problem could be stopped by wave of millions of people,it is people could stop themself. for sure we need goverment change in some form of democrcy , but true democracy what our people have invisioned and have a understanding is far from reality, it is not because they don't deserve it because it is not moderate  and open society. 32 year constent repression and denial of their right are root of deperation in the society. damage is been done to this nation and the country is not easy to recover, but there is no choice  because time is the essence and our nation deserve better than this and I am hopeful for better future, main issue is who are really printing the road map and that is question worth 76 million people.  

The bottom line is that IRI supporters, agents and lackeys

will say and do anything to ensure the continued survival of their despicable regime.  And that includes conjuring up a new persona, becoming polite, becoming a patriot, supporting "change", being opposed to violence, being for personal freedoms, etc.

This is the same "No Fear" who has justified violence and violent crackdown on protesters last year, has said that Neda's death was BBC's job, and until a month ago could not write a simple paragraph without using the words a*s and s**t.  Now, all of a sudden, she is a polite intellectual who wants "change" and is interested in debates.  I guess they have figured out that violent crackdown can only keep people quiet for a while, and now it's time to try to brainwash them.  But, after 31 years of lies, murder, rapes and smoke and mirrors, all we can say in response is:  KHODETI sister. :-) 

MM,

I like to compare myself to your positions.

1. an elected government w/o pre-screening of candidates;

A noble idea. i would like to see some pre screenings to establish nationalistic credentials for candidates, screening for corruptions,etc... but i do realize it will open the pandora box of "other" preconditions finding their way in. OK , i can live without it, let the majority choose their leader.

2. separation of religion and government

Another Noble idea. I specifically like your choosing of the word " government" and not " politic".  While in person i agree with this notion and will advocate it and support the politician who implements it, I will accept the majority if they choose otherwise.

3. freedom of speech/information/religions

Nothing wrong here as well. As long as we conduct ourselves in a civil manner with respect to other beliefs or ideas.

4. full implementation of the UN charter of human rights. 

A good debate indeed. I am skeptical here, but will accept this if the majority of Iranians accept it. Please join me and Rosie in this debate here.

//iranian.com/main/2010/jul/khamenei-lover

PS: You will be under my radar from now on.

Forgiveness

Whilst IRI/IRGC/Khamanei/Ahmadinejad are slaughtering the fine young men and women of Iran then they do not desrerve forgiveness. They deserve to be deposed and then tried in the court of law.

I am not a follower of Ghandi- Are the people you support- the basege//IRGC who commit murder in day light supporting Ghandi? NoFear- why are you so two faced that when you support the murderous regime you urge their victims to submit to their rule and slaughter like sheep? 

I am not advocating the non-violent movement because I am a non violent person but becuase strategically it has the highest chance of success in getting rid of the muerderous IRI with as low as practicable loss of life and treasure for Iran. Unfortunately the violent and ruthless regime will non the less extract a heavy price from the people of Iran before they are consigned to the dustbin of history.

Infact, revolutions rarely offer democracies.

Good grief.

American revolution

French Revolution

Color revolutions

Cedar Revolution

Overthrow of Ottomans

South Korea

Philipines

Russia

Serbia

No fear : Revolution starts Ideology follow

No Fear you announce requierment without any facts !

Who said Revolution needs Ideology. French Revolution and others started because people were fed up by the system and during revolt some people take leadership or people come toghether around some values.

Still you don't decide if a revolution is a good solution or not as you cannot say if an earth quak is a good or bad solution.

A revolution arrive when conditions are there at a time where people in power may not expect because they feel themselves self suffisant with their power (like your IRI freinds today and Shah 30 years ago).

I bet it is coming. Prepare yourself. All you can say in Internet for avoiding it is useless. Revolution will come from People for People.