ADVICE

more american than americans2.........I do see

 I do see your point on being tired of people whining about this and that. I also had friends that went through a similar situation as Curious Joe. However, they took it upon themselves to get further training which enabled them  to keep up with competitive demands in living in a much more global world. If one wants to do well in the US then you have to keep the competitive edge going or you will not be successful in the job market. It is why the US is a capatalistic economy. You know supply and demand,  and out sourcing come into play in  the US economy.

I am glad that you are also aware of the current problems plaguing the US. However, telling someone to put up with it or leave is not the best solution. Apparently, they did have a lot of patience because they have been in the US for a long time. I think that it is always good to see both perspectives of any issue because the truth is always somewhere in the middle.:o)

US system:

Yes, the US is better in many areas than other countries like for example Mexico. Mexicans will risk their lives to cross the border because the US is better than Mexico. They don't see the US problems, all they see are the opportunities because there are none in Mexico.

Natalia Nadia

Sasha

My point was never to defend the current socioecomic state of the US. But, I am sick and tired of those who keep on whining and griping about their situation and blaming US for any problems they have.
There is plenty of rooms for improvement in our current system but, even in its current state it is superior to most other systems (in my opinion).

The bottom line is that, if you don't like it, and have nothing to offer to make it better, and don't have the patience to see it through, then, leave..., (get the hell out o'here)...

more american than americans2

 Curious Joe is only pointing out some of the problems with the USA in our times. It is something that the majority is aware of. Just like you have the constitutional right to express your opinion on the matter so does Curious Joe.

I will be the first to agree that the US is a lot better than my native country but I am also aware of certain socioeconomic problems with the US that need to be addressed.

You must see the logic in this too. It is through dialogue that we can perhaps see some possible solutions to them. By taking a holistic approach in solving them because it will take  work in different aspects of the US society to bring about changes.

Natalia Nadia

Who forced you to stay here

If you are incompetent, whose fault is it?. Did anybody force you to stay here? Why didn't you move to your beloved lands, Norway, Finland, .....?
It is a disgrace to stay here and rape this land with all the opportunities it has offered you and gripe just because you are incompetent.

Now that you are a senior citizen (and I assume you are a US citizen), go back to your Tehran and use your social security pay and live like a king. Quit being a sore loser and blame your flaws on the land you have stolen so much from....

To Curious Joe

I sympathise with your story and understand the hardship you have been going trough . I just don't understand why you should think that it is only non Tehranis-or "Dehatis" as you put it- who are doing well with real state or car dealership, etc work. So only smarty Tehranis are qualified to be university teachers or industry experts or scientists, etc. Is that really what you observe and believe in?

To Curious Joe

I sympathise with your story and understand the hardship you have been going trough . I just don't understand why you should think that it is only non Tehranis-or "Dehatis" as you put it- who are doing well with real state or car dealership, etc work. So only smarty Tehranis are qualified to be university teachers or industry experts or scientists, etc. Is that really what you observe and believe in?

Samuel...........thank you

 Thank you for your answer to my question. I do have two friends who live in Belgium and they had mentioned that it is competitive in getting a good job. They forsee that it will only get more difficult. I had read some news articles in which countries like France and England where either considering or implementing changes to their immigration policies. It almost seemed as if they were targeting some particular group. You know to either keep them out or get them out.

I have also read that France does not deal well with certain immigrants. I am not sure which ones.

In the US we all know they are Hispanics and Mexicans to be more exact.

Natalia Nadia

Blue Card

choghok.........Question?

 I was under the understanding that many European countries were trying to reduce the number of immigrants and in fact were making changes to their immigration policies to that effect. Did I misunderstand this information? Are they only trying to keep a certain religious or ethnic group out?

If you would be so kind to clarify this point for me? Anyone on this thread could also respond to my question in an objecitve and logical way. Thank you.

Natalia Nadia

Vince why do you...........

 Why do you want it printed in Spanish and Portuguese? You know they will still come to the USA because of the push / pull factors happening in their country.

I could translate Joe's article/blog in Spanish but what purpose would it serve?

Sabes bien que van a siguer viniendo a los Estados Unidos. Porque las condiciones no son buenas en sus paises.

Natalia Nadia

Keep up the good work

Please listen to Curious Joe and don't move to the U.S. Another thing, do you think you could get this printed in Spanish and Portuguese. Thank you.

I strongly think that the

I strongly think that the name of this site should be changed from Iranian.com to USbashingIRIpropagandamachine.com. If any leftist ever tell you that he is only against the foreign policy of the U.S, by viewing the articles and responses to them on this site, one would see that is totally false. They attack and bash the core values and foundation of the U.S. Their oghdeh has gotten them to this stage! It even has come to the point to attack education, economic, cultural and now. Immigration aspect of the Nation of Immigrants! If they bash all things related to the U.S, which this free country has guaranteed their right to, even on its own soil, then the question would be how can we value your argument against U.S policy towards the Islamic Regime? We all know you don’t agree with anything U.S does or represents anyway, so how can you be a neutral and a reasonable analyzer here? Nonetheless, first of all, U.S hosts 35 million out of 200 million immigrants (Not refugees) in the world. (Germany is second by 6 million). It is very interesting to claim that all these 35 million who not only immigrated to the U.S, but became part of it and enjoyed whatever it has to offer, have actually been “fooled” like the author claimed they did. That just does not make sense. Second, you are not the only individual who worked or works in corporations, and let me tell you about one benefit they offer, which is called “value share”. This value share is pretty much free money invested by the company into the benefit package. Some will receive up to $2,000 a year in those benefits. That is unique to U.S businesses. I’m not even gonna talk about all the minimal or non payments each employee invests in to get excellent packages such as medical, dental, vision, 401K,,and most recently college fund benefits most corporations offer. Third, the author’s argument about immigrants becoming car dealers only is either out hatred or amazing lack of knowledge. Lets just name some immigrants: Arnold , governor of Californian, Bobby Jindal, governor of Louisiana, Zalmay Khalilzad, U.S ambassador to U.N, Mel Martinez, U.S Senator out of Florida, Tom Lantos, U.S rep out of CA, Jimmy Delshad, Iranian mayor of Beverly Hills..among tens of thousand of others who have made it all the way. This country offers a lot, it is up to individuals to grab the opportunities and make something out of it. That’s why by stats, not emotions, it is leading the world in economy (Leading economic power), technology (46% of technology production happens in U.S), education (8 out of top 10 universities are located in the U.S) and democracy indexes (Please refer to U.N human development statistics). Fourth, Iranians travel thousand of miles everywhere (Turkey, Dubai, Germany) in order to get the chance to migrate to the U.S. I sincerely doubt that Iranians are so unaware of the opportunities here in the U.S that close to 1 million of them have migrated to this country and millions would like to. Fifth, U.S does only attract immigrants from 3rd world countries, but most recently from top European nations such as Germany and France. I’ve actually seen and met those people, and publicly available sources are on the internet to illustrate the immigration trend of German, French and Canadian among other college graduate and businessmen to work and live in the U.S and also, Australia and New Zealand and places like that…(Offocurse you would never mention Australia since it is an Ally of the U.S)..Yes, the so called “more civilized nations” ..you don’t even care about elaborating on what “civilized” means..but I’m sure its anything that represent non-American! Sixth, How can immigration be a “choice”? I always ask that question from leftist Iranians and never really got a convincing answer? Why all these leftist moved to the U.S who according to them “enslaves people..hates Iran…oppresses individual”…??? That does not make sense. Why they never migrated to “worker paradise” nations such as N Korea and China??? A very known communist Iranian recently wrote an article bashing U.S education system from everything on how allegedly it” became commercialized and Neo Cons controlling it”….the same gentleman, in another article stated his son just started his freshman year at University of Michigan.! Why didn’t he send his son to University of Pyong Yang? Or Havana University? I mean what has become of us that we became so mean spirited, so cold hearted and such hypocrites and butcher reason, fact and reality. I refuse to think that these people represent the majority of Iranians, specially the ones inside of Iran.

The problem of US is not only wellfare

I live in Europe and travel several times to US.

Of course, I feel myself uneasy when I leave hotel late in the night there is an old woman (a mamy) for payement.

The worse is young people how kill people in the school without reason. May be each studient should have a gun ?!!

And what about the capital punishment. the Death Penalty didnt reduce crime in US.

Death Penalty is something US and IRAN has in common !

My apologies but: Give me a break

I came here from a very educated upper middle class, but not wealthy family from northern Tehran.
Here, I was a PhD student at a top university where most of my Iranian classmates were very talented Dehatis on scholarships. despite the huge differences in our background and upbringing, we became best of friends. We were all poor students. We are still the best of friends. I admire their character. Forget about second-hand car dealers. Forget about las vegas. I am talking about very different kind of Dehatis.
I and another Dehati friend, built two companies from scratch together, creating about 400 direct jobs. We sold one to IBM and took the second one public. Another Dehati friend whose father was selling "sange-pa" in mashad streets is now chairman of a semiconductor company with about 1000+ employees. Another Dehati friend is practically father of "non-invasive surgery". Another dehati friend is one of silicon valley's most powerful venture capitalists. Another dehati friend from a village in Kordestan, went to Germany and co-conducted Europe's first liver transplant. Later, he served as director of Stanford research hospital.

On contrary, the "soosool" son of our neighbour in tehran whose father was a general in shah's army, was sent to study in a private school in switzerland. he is yet to finish high school (he is about 47 now!).

When there is will, there is a way.
Trust no one but your mother, let alone corporate America!
Blame no one but yourself.

Been on Both sides of the Atlantic

I have been living mostly in europe bbut I also have lived in Canada for a short time and also visited USA several times.

First of all I must say that I dislike the American system. The American way is to earn as much as possible with no regard to other people. It is not even healthy for the rich people in USA. Can a rich American drive his car in NYC or Los Angeles any time of day areas with no problems?

In most european countries there is at least a higher tax so that a minimal living standard could be had for the most unfortunate. How can a 5 year old boy be responsible for actions of his parents?

The problm in Europe is that since they have their own traditions and culture they would not trust people with different style. Say an Italian could probably not become head of a company in Sweden since they are culturally different. 

Of all the countries I have visited I like Canada the best. It is something beteen USA and Europe. And the French have made it a place with more elegance and humane view than USA.

Right on the Money Curious Joe. "Javaaads" need not to reply.

Curious Joe:::: Right on the money man, liked your article, very concise and accurate. So sad you realized this after many years being in US. I have more bad news for you man. Most Iranians are “Dehati” and what you see in US, or abroad with Iranians, is a small, yet accurate representative of the society in Iran. The only difference is that the society in US is much more flat as opposed to in Iran where you usually don’t interact with these “Davoods” on daily bases as you do here (that used to be the case, not anymore though). Another bad news, Americans are mostly “Dehati” too. Look at their history, who would immigrate here and who has? Mostly peasants from old Europe, would an English lord or middle class immigrate here to live in the early harsh environment, of course not. Half of the people in US still refute the evolution theory and believe in … whatever (ie, the universe is 10000 yrs old and the earth and humans were created by god 4000 yrs ago) now that‘s big shit. Look around you today, who are the most people immigrating to this country by millions, Mexicans who wash toilets and work on the farm, no middle or upper class from Mexico come here, why? Same for Iranians. middle, educated class from Iran would have a lot to lose to immigrate but quite a few have to do it because of political issues, dehati on the other hand would do it in a heartbeat because they have nothing to lose, going to Dubai and Vienna posing as homos, prostitutes, changing religion, whatever works and no pride to lose or consider. Anything they can get here is way above and beyond of what they could ever dream of in Iran. I see Iranians here that I would never, ever would come to contact with in Iran under normal circumstances. Where have they come from, how did they get here? Uhh and then I found out about Vienna or places like that. So here comes an interesting question, if both US and Iran have so many Dehati’s then why they are so different, right? The differentiating factor is not the dehati’s or what they do or think (if they actually even think) or motivates them, it is in the small difference in middle, intellectual class. In US or Europe the ratio is let’s say 85% dehati, 15% non-dehati. In Iran 95% dehati, 5%non-dehati. The determining factor is thus that small 10% in non-dehatis. That 10% can have a huge impact as the result can be seen from the difference between countries like Iran and US. As for a few of us that our roots come from that burgeoning intellectual middle class of the end of shah’s regime, which is all been annihilated, we are in deep shit no matter where we’d go. So better quit that corporate job and start becoming “Bache Kaaf Bazar Tehrangeles” before it is too late. Becoming hajii also couldn’t hurt!!!!

I vant to interview your President !

Anschuldigung sie bitte,
I vant to interview Amadinejad!
//it.youtube.com/watch?v=ajMsfw8-RUY&feature=...

Borat on CNN

//it.youtube.com/watch?v=rTmIGXYkp5o&feature=...

I'm also from a dehat called Kuusak :)

Hello Iranian friends,
My name is Borat & I like sexx !
I was informed about this very important article by the Khazk interior ministry (not assholes Uzbek)that there are many dehatees in your country as well. Congratulations... During my Cultural learings of U.S and A to make benefit the glorious nation of Khazkstan I came across many "Dehatees" too...
But back to you guys, Ironically, I heard of a Persian guy called "Ghatebeh" which looks like me verry muuch & like me, liiikes women & sex...
Also, there is another one who is your President called "Akhmadi-nejad" who is very funny man and says : You don't have any homosexuals in your country... I heard he was very surprised to know the Mullah who had his fist up his arse (when he was growing up) was a gay man! I like him, Very funny man... By the way, me & your President, use the same Taylor for our formal & bathing suits, Verry niice... :D

Curious Joe

This is quite entertaining to see how people are riled up on such an irrelevant issue: "Dahati".

I would also like to add all those dahatis from east and south Asia and rural eastern Europe who came on H1B visas. They are/were far larger group, though some left US during last recession. These are the cheap white collar workers that corporate America feeds on.

Oddly enough, the point seemed lost on most respondents. This has been a decades long trend in the US economy; unbalanced trade, losing of the manufacturing base and the outsourcing. This is all about doing business cheaper. This requires the availability of cheap labor source that can be hired and fired at will. UNfortunately, the corporate ethics have degraded a lot in the past 30 years and will continue to decline as the economic pressure mounts.

Most college graduates are still dreaming about the, fast disappearing, cushy corporate jobs. This will soon be a distant memory. Best to get your experience and then get out and start a business on your own. US has the lowest barriers in business start ups and therefore the highest chance for success.

From a personal point of view, I can tell you from my European contacts that their cost is 3 time the cost of my local collaborators in US and is becoming increasing difficult to do business with them. How Europe will manage their current economic structure, will remain to be seen.

Wonderful

Joe: that was kinda lame. Gotta think positively.
.
Kalifornia Boy: Liked your post. Btw agha, you do know you can post pictures to Iranian.com, don't you? Damet garm!
.
Mr. YazdanMehr: Love your name! Most excellent and fragrant with that sublime Air from Iran Zameen. Thanks for setting straight the record on the sordid history of Tehran. No wonder they like to claim its a new city!! I am a Tehrani btw and my Greek neighbor said I look "Persian Persian". Go figure ..
.
Souri and 7: "OMG", You girls sound so hot ;) (You do know you can post videos to Iranian.com, don't ya?)
.
Sad Dan in Chicago: God Bless you. InshAllah you'll meet up with your son in Heaven. There is a saying of the Prophet (SAWS) about precisely this situation, a loving father losing his son quit tragically. He (SAWS) said 'On Ressurection, his son will greet him at the Gates and lead him into Pardees' !! How's that for Comfort from your LORD, Most Gracious ArRahman?
.

Mr. Moshgel Gosha

I am ok. Thanks! :O) Your earlier comment was very funny though! Chakereem!

Dear Joe, You only have to

Dear Joe,
You only have to blame yourself. I cam to the States when I was 18 right out of high school from Tehran. I had work for the fortune 100 companies as well. This is the greatest country on the earth to live on. I lived in China & Singapore & have traveled all over the Europe & Asia. You don't like it go back to Iran.

لطفآ بند مردم رو به اب ندین

آقوی " وسط غربی" شومو یه صلوآت بفرستین , میونیه این دو تا درست میشه
فقط کار این اقو" چوی" ما هنوز لنگه . درضمن از کی تا لا دولت فرآنسه پول عمل
تغییر چنسیت اتبآع ا یرآنیشو تقبل میکنه . اینچا دو سه تا مشتری دیگه داریم.
خوش باشین و دم همتون گرم

Sour, you said:

"We (most of the people in this debate including Joe) come from that generation and if Joe is pronouncing this word again in a moment of anger, do not blame on him and don't attack his comment,"

Yeah right...the word dehati is his main point, where every thing revolves around it. He used it intentionally to degrade Iranians living in the US. I wonder why Us at this moment. 

By the way, how do you know so much about his motivation of using the word Dehati? That, he didn't mean to say that? How do you know what generation he is coming from?

That's pethatic that you think people are so stupid not recognizing Dariush Kadivar's style of writing, his french connection and his political affiliations.

You people are better off not talking at all.

to 7 again

I don't think this is  healthy to waste the time of the readers and the material of this site, by a "one to one" debate.

Indeed the whole thing was about "Immigration to other countries vs. USA" and we are going too far from the main subject.

Please take my advice friendly and never bring an intellectual debate on a "personal leve" by the "personal question" like : Do you think you are or who you think you are...etc."

You got so offended by my comment that I believe you didn't read the whole comment or did not try to understand what I meant.

My appologies if I offended you.

The whole thing I was trying to say "as I mentioned there" was :

30/40 years ago, that phenomena of using "Dahati" word was usual and a habit to define people who had less education. We (most of the people in this debate including Joe) come from that generation and if Joe is pronouncing this word again in a moment of anger, do not blame on him and don't attack his comment, as this is a habitual word in our language.

I also mentioned that nowadays, those things (the war of Dahati/Shahri) has been changed in Iran.

We could continue this conversation for long time, but really there's no point here.

So, please do respect all other readers and do not post things to bring up some personal matters which do not interst anyone.

Thank you.

you're labeling people

Believing that people are born equal , and then calling those from other cities other than Tehran by labeling them as "dahati" are contradictory terms, unless you believe that those people are less equal, and may be labeled as such. Do you think you're really less "dahati" (per your definition) than those people?

To 7 : Sorry for you, I do answer

Asking me not to answer, but sorry, I do ! You may not understand the word : Equally borned.

This means, at the time of birth, all people are equal, around the world.

Then, what distinct them one from another, of course, is their education, their knowledge, their behaviour....etc which they acquire during their whole lives.

The word "Esalat" which you mention here, is something referring to the people who are borned to a well routed family, isn't it ?

That is what I don't agree to.

Good luck,

To 7 : Sorry for you, I do answer

Asking me not to answer, but sorry, I do ! You may not understand the word : Equally borned.

This means, at the time of birth, all people are equal, around the world.

Then, what distinct them one from another, of course, is their education, their knowledge, their behaviour....etc which they acquire during their whole lives.

The word "Esalat" which you mention here, is something referring to the people who are borned to a well routed family, isn't it ?

That is what I don't agree to.

Good luck,

contradicting yourself

There's nothingh wrong with using this word. It has been in our culture to use this word every time we wanted to refer to someone less educated,
.

I believe all people around the world are borned equally. Those words " Esalat" and so on, belong to the "old school".
.
Hahaha! So now you're contradidting yourself, from one post to next! OMG, this is hillarious! In your first post, you state that it is alright to use "dahati", since "it has been in our culture". And in your second post, you say you don't like using words from the old world. Now which is it: Is it OK to use words that have been in our culture or old world? don't bother answering!!!

.
And if you do not understand the meaning of esalat, it is not an "old world" word. It conveys dignity, integrity, and one's positive cultural bearings, which are very valued today.
.
.