Where were you on Aug 19, 1953?

Recollections of writers, translators, men and women of the pen


Balatarin
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Where were you on Aug 19, 1953?
by Fariba Amini
19-Aug-2008
 

Personally and on behalf of the CIA, I wish to commend you most highly and thank you for your outstanding contribution to Operation AJAX...Your expert knowledge of the country and your personal knowledge of many of the leading actors in the operation were invaluable assets during all phases of the operation. Your competence and tact in dealing with [British] in the preparation of the joint plan and your ingenuity, resourcefulness, and untiring efforts in the planning and preparation of the psychological warfare aspects of the operation cannot be too highly praised. -- A letter addressed to Donald Wilber by Allen W. Dulles, January 30, 1954

I was reading a magazine fresh out of Iran called Negah-e-nou, a literary/political magazine containing essays, analysis and works of numerous Iranian writers as well as book reviews of foreign authors. The last section of the magazine, called Recollections of 28th of Mordad, is dedicated to the 1953 coup, I found quite fascinating. This recollection has been gathered by Morteza Hashemi Pour and was published in the Mordad 1387- August 2008 issue of the journal negahenou.com

A week earlier, I had come across a book By Ali Mirfetroos called Asib Shenasi yek Shekast “Psychology of a Failure,” Farhang publisher, 2008 which is fiercely critical of Mossadegh and how he handled the oil dispute. In it, Mr. Mirfetroos alleges that if Mossadegh had worked with the British and their US counterparts, and had not been so “stubborn,” he would have saved the situation.

He also claims that the coup was not planned ahead of time: “My insistence that the 1953 coup was not planned ahead is not just an intellectual challenge but it is an attempt to depict reality that, in my opinion, is closer to the truth.”

Elsewhere he says: “ Mossadegh with all his love for Iran, with his national pride, with his integrity and self- glorification, had given hope to the Iranian people but because&nbs p; of political and historical obstacles, it was difficult or rather impossible to attain them. Instead of using wisdom and political insight, he used the people’s emotions which are all too typical of populist leaders and movements.“

Replying to this book and the author is a whole different task, one for those who write book reviews as he refers to many scholars in the field. I for one will not engage with those who deny historical facts.

Today, the story of Iran is different from those days, though in some ways there are a few similarities. Even if the Islamic Republic accepts the terms of the US and its Western allies, regarding the nuclear issue, will everything change and will Iran be seen in a different light by opinion makers? Of course, there is absolutely no comparison with the two governments, but if the US administration and its policy makers decide not to negotiate or compromise with Iran at some level, at the en d, it is the nations of both countries who will bear the consequences.

On the occasion of 28 Mordad (Aug 19, 1953) I thought that by translating and summarizing parts of these recollections, some of which are quite fascinating and moving, we might see the past from different perspectives. In many ways, while Iran is being targeted on all fronts, whether right or wrong, the events of Aug 1953 are still with us in the most haunting way. Writers, scholars and people in general, Iranians and Americans alike, continue to be mesmerized with what really took place on those days when a nation’s destiny was changed overnight, trying to analyze these events and to find answers to the many questions they raise. Above all, more than that of any other Iranian political figure of modern times, Mossadegh’s legacy lives on.

*** *** ***

Dariush Ashouri- scholar
I am from the generation of the period of oil nationalization and I remember growing up with the idea of the oil nationalization and the coup d’état of 1953 which caused a wound that gave birth to the 1979 revolution. I was only 12 years old when I had finished school and all over Tehran you could see a different kind of atmosphere prevailing, especially at the university. A lot of people, especially students who were older than me, had joined different political parties.

On that day, I was a youngster who had just turned 15. I would read the many books and party news papers which were available to us. Sometimes I would go to meetings and party gatherings. In our street corner, we would get into discussions with people on the other side of the political spectrum. We lived on Molavi Street. At the corner was the=2 0Gendarmerie headquarters. It was a really painful event for our generation. On the actual day of 28th of Mordad (Aug 19), I saw people bringing down statues and shouting slogans in support of a Republic. This had happened only three days earlier. But the city seemed calm since Mossadegh’s government had forbidden any demonstrations or gatherings. It was two o’clock in the afternoon when we saw men with bayonets with whores from the Shahr No [the New City- the red light district of Tehran] on trucks who were shouting Marg Bar Mossadegh , Zendeh bad Shah (death to Mossadegh, long live the Shah) It was the most amazing scene. Those who were bystanders were from the Tudeh party, ordinary people or Mossadeghis. All of a sudden the mob got out of the truck and started running towards us using their bayonets and clubs to beat us and the bystanders. We ran as fast as we could to get away from them. One of the people with us got a good beating. I went home to listen to our newly bought radio Fada and heard the voice of Mir Ashrafi who was a journalist and one of the leaders of the anti-Mossadegh movement who talked of the “national uprising”. We sat there listening in=2 0bewilderment.

Ezatollah Entezami- actor
Our house was near the Mojassameh square (now the Revolution square). We heard some gun shots. A child was hit and we took him to the nearby hospital. It was full of people. Lots of injured. We finally found the child’s father. The city was noisy, especially near and around Dr. Mossadegh’s house in Kakh Street. Two days before the coup there were slogans for Mossadegh and today they were pro Shah. It appeared that the coup was being directed from Park Gheitaryieh. I had played a few films there. No single political party stood up against the coup, not even the Tudeh party. They burnt down a few theatres. I was working in Sa’adi Theatre. They burned that too. They also arrested a few actors. After a few days, they arrested and held me for 4-5 moths. I later heard that Timsar Bakhtiar [later head of SAVAK] did not like us artists. It was a very difficult time. I left for Germany. It was a repressive atmosphere.

Manoucher Anvar- writer and translator
I was in England at the time. I was an Iranian student studying there. Like so many other students we were shocked to hear the news. We had tears in our eyes and were in total grief. The extent of our grief was as huge as our joy a year earlier when we had heard the news from the radio of the outcome of the Hague Court ruling in favor of Iran. At that time, we were twenty in a room and sitting next to the radio when we heard the good news. We were congratulating one another. There was only one person who was not happy and I am sure that person was having a ball when the coup happened.

Ghamar Aryan- scholar and writer
The 28th of Mordad and the coup against Mossadegh is unforgettable. Everywhere there was talk of Mossadegh and the coup. My husband, Abdi (Dr. Abdolhossein Zarrin Koub) and I we were busy with our own lives. It was on that day that we got married, in the city of Mashad.

Azartash Azarnoush – scholar and writer
I was sixteen years old. At Razi High School, we had been gathering with some of my friends on old Pahlavi Street. The city was crowded. We saw three jeeps near the Marmar Palace [one of the Shah’s many palaces]. One of them got out and threw a knife at us to scare us away. There were 10-15 of us. We ran away but they threw stones at us. We went home in the dark. We were Mossadeghis but didn’t know what to do.

Abdolrahim Ja’afari- founder of Amir Kabir Publishing house
It was ten O’clock when I was standing in front of Nasser Khosrow store. I heard a lot of sound. I thought, like the previous days when there were demonstrations against the Shah and his departure people and military people are running away, but this time the noise was bigger. I came to the southern part of the street, Bouzerjomehri Street and I saw 500 people with ragged clothing and bayonets in hand down on Nasser Khosrow Street. It looked like they had come from the southern part of the city- Zaghe Neshin [one of the shanty districts of southern Tehran]- they had picture of the Shah and a few had clubs in their hands and would shout Marg bar Mossadegh, Marg bar Tudeh . A lot of police and security forces who were on jeeps and army trucks were joining them.

The chant of “we will pay for the skin and the flesh of Tudeh sympathizers” was heard all over the city.

I heard the awkward voice of Mir Ashrafi who was on the radio saying the people have cut the traitor Mossadegh to pieces and Zendeh bad Shah. After he spoke, it was Seyed Mehdi Pirasteh and Zahedi’s turn.

In the afternoon, I was with my friend Hassan Sa’adat, the son of Ahmad Sa’adat who was the head of Sherkat Matbou’at, (the Press Company) we started walking down towards Kakh and Shah Streets. [Dr. Mossadegh’s residence was on Kakh Street]. Thousands of people were out and the hooligans were throwing papers from the second floor of an office. Slogans of Marg bar Mossadegh and Marg bar Tudeh (death to Mossadegh and death to Tudeh sympathizers) were everywhere. I suddenly heard gun shots. And every time we went closer to Dr. Mossadegh’s house, the shots were higher. When we finally got there, we saw that the door of the house had been taken out by a tank. There were=2 0holes from the gun shots all over the wall and the house. There was a struggle between those defending the house and the military. In front of the joub (gutter) in front of his house, there were bodies; you could see the inside of their bodies. There were people, who were ransacking his house; they were carrying everything from his house- furniture, door knobs, heaters, rugs even toilet bowls, everything they could get their hands on. Shaban bee Mokh and his collaborators were looking for people to confront, but there was no one to stand up to them. Shaban bee Mokh (Shaban the brainless) [ a wrestler and a thug who was paid to mobilize the anti-Mossadegh mob] later titled himself Shaban Tajbaksh (Shaban who has handed over the throne.)

I saw these events with my own eyes and grieved that it maybe that is the destiny of great men. Who knows maybe these were the same people who just a few days ago were saying, “we will sacrifice our lives, we will write in blood, either death or Mossadegh.”

Ali Ashraf Darvishian- playwright
On that day, I was 12 years old. I heard the news of the coup from radio. I was standing in the Timcheh area of Kermnashah and was in line to get bread. We ran with my brother towards the house and tried to clean up the slogans we had written on the walls of our street. It was sad news. We were cleaning the slogans we had written sometime earlier.

Mahmoud Kashechi- director of Gutenburg publications
On that day, I had come from Mashad to Tehran. My bookstore was in front of the National Garden and near Homa theatre. Nearby, the Boroumand bookstore had been burned down by hooligans. After the coup, we could not print many books and sometimes we would print things clandestinely like Bargardim Goleh Nassrin Bechinim. I have been to almost all the prisons of Tehran since the 28th of Mordad. From the 86 years of my life, I have dedicated 66 years of it in publishing books and journals, all in the service of the people and my country.

Hassan Kamshad-writer and translator
My brother and I Houshang who lived with us in Ahwaz went to visit the city of Isfahan. There we met up with Shahrokh Meskoub [a renowned writer of numerous works and a scholar on Shahnameh who died in Paris in 2005.] We were all jolly walking in Chahar Bagh Street. Shahrokh had come to see his wife. All of a sudden we saw a truck and there were villagers, youngsters and soldiers who were shouting Zendeh bad Shah, Marg bar Mossadegh. Marg bar Tudeh. There were a few of Shahrokh’s wife relatives on the truck as well. We were stunned. Didn’t the shah leave the country? Didn’t Dr. Fatemi, Mossadegh’s foreign minister announced a Republic? There were many trucks and the same slogans were chanted. Suddenly someone saw us; it was Meskoub’s wife’s chauffeur who shouted: “Are you guys crazy? What are you doing here?” He took us with him and it was there that we heard from Erham Sadr, the actor, from Radio Isfahan: “this is Isfahan, half of the world, we hear terrible news from Radio Tehran but the lawful government of Dr. Mossadegh still continues to hold on to its legal rule…”

From Ahwaz we heard that they took all our belongings, took over our house, and burned down everything else. The days and months after 28 of Mordad were the worse days of my life. All over Iran, there was a state of siege. Shahrokh Meskoub was imprisoned and I left the country…

Jamal Mir Sadeghi- playwright and scholar
It was the day of 28th of Mordad. I was insane. I was asking myself how could this happen? Some were shouting slogans. There were hooligans and mobs all over the capital, shouting slogans of Marg bar Mossadegh and Zendeh Bad Shah (Death to Mossadegh and Long live the Shah.) Those who are today talking of democracy did not let our country take its natural route and stood up against the nation and the government. Before the 28th of Mordad when the Shah had left, we were all happy and then Zahedi came with his tanks and again repression found new ways.

Goli Taraghi - author and playwright
It was 28th of Mordad. We were in Naderi Street, going to Mrs. Yelna’s dance school. I was 13-14 years old. All of sudden, there was lots of noise and there were skirmishes outside. We came to the balcony and saw some hooligans. They shouted, “hey look at the girls.” Mrs. Yelna took us inside. I didn’t go to my house directly as it was far, so I we nt to my grandmothers’ house which was near Heshmatdolleh. I saw people carrying things. One had a chandelier, one had a table. Scores of people were carrying different objects. They said, these were objects belonging to Mossadegh’s house. Before that day, they were shouting slogans in his favor. But on this day, his house was being ransacked. And then later, I witnessed statues coming down and going up. It seems that people study history, but never really learns from it.

Abdollah Kowsari- translator
In those years, in early 1950’s, people who could afford, would go out of Tehran to places like Meygoon, Oshan and Feshan [three resort towns outside of Tehran] Since most homes in Tehran did not have air conditioning, it was a way to spend the summer in cooler places. In the summer of 1953, my family had rented a house and we all went to a beautiful garden in Meygoon. There were roaring creeks, ni ce gardens, and small alleys. At night all the Tehranis would get together in the main square of Meygoon and play the accordion and sing songs and have a jolly time.

At another corner, supporters of Mossadegh and Tudeh would get together and have heated discussions. I was only seven years old. Like most people from the middle class, my father was a Mossadeghi so I guess I was too! I remember we used to play in the river nearby and one day, we saw a large, tall man who was far away from all of us and was standing there, smoking a pipe, just looking deeply into the river. They told me it was Dr. Baghaiee [founder of Hezbeh Zahmatkeshan, who supported Mossadegh at first but then turned his back on him and collaborated with the coup organizers].

In those days, the last thing on everyone's mind was the disaster that was shaping and befalling us. I read a verse from a Latin American poet that still shakes me: “A calm street before a crime taking place”… The atm osphere in Meygoon, all the joy and fun in the evenings had nothing to do with the horrific crime taking place [in the capital]. The only thing I remember from the coup is that I saw my father like a lost child on a balcony, hitting on his forehead. No one could grasp the shocking thing that had happened to a nation. No one could grasp the depth of it.

And the rest is history……


Balatarin
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more from Fariba Amini
 
fozolie

Ms Amini

by fozolie on Tue Aug 18, 2009 02:56 PM PDT

I am sorry to say this but your crusade is only indicative of your brainwashing by your father at a young age. I won't even try to reason with you about the failures of Mr Mossadegh because for you this is a matter of faith and not reason. 

Mr. Fozolie


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1342 Was the Golden Opportunity Squandered

by Anonymous747 (not verified) on Fri Aug 29, 2008 04:12 PM PDT

Mammad Damagh (AKA Mohammad Reza Shah) should have liquidated Khomaini the Traitor during the 15 Khordad 1342 when he had the chance and Assadullah Alam adivesd him to do so. That was the golden shot he missed.


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Mammad

by Anonymous Observer (not verified) on Sat Aug 23, 2008 03:49 PM PDT

This will be my last comment to you, but I feel like I should point out your flaws. Your lumping everyone who doesn't share your Socialist views into one ideology demonstrates a basic lack of understanding of the various political views in the U.S. I so not believe that banks shuld be bailed out by the government. I happen to be a very fiscally conservative Democrat (shocked, aren't you?). I don't think that the government should bail anyone out, individual or corporate. I also don't think that corporations should get higher tax breaks because I disagree with the notion that tax breaks create jobs. They don't. That being said, I happen to know of many people who knowingly got themselves into mortgages that they should have known they could not pay after the teaser-rate period ended, and that is where personal responsibility comes in.

Aagin, though, as far as your extinct ideology is concerned, please advertise it somewhere else, as Iran or Iranians are not your correct target audience. We tried your nonsense thrity years ago, and it has failed us...misrebaly. It has brought us nothing but death, destruction and misery. We DON'T want to know what Shariati said....he is irrelevant. We couldn't care less...We don't care if there is a distinction between neo-Socialism and Communism...trust me, you will never have a "Democtratic Republic of Iran" or a "People's Republic of Iran". We tried your other suggestion, the "Islamic Repunlic of Iran" and, as they say, that one "barayeh haft poshtemoon kaafi bood". We don't care if Shariati wanted or didn't want an akhoond in charge....All of this nonsense was tried, resulted in the 1979 Revolution, and the rest, as they say, is history!

But, I am glad that you and your friends did discuss Shariati and other matters related to the Islamo-leftist doctrine thirty years ago in detail, because if you hadn't, we may have ended up with a theocratic dictatorship that would have resulted in unspeakable crimes against Iran and Iranian people.....hey, wait a minute....


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Mammad

Anonymous Observer

by Mammad on Sat Aug 23, 2008 02:34 PM PDT

I do not mean to annoy you and, if I did, I sincerely apologize. You do not have to debate me and my garbage comments. But, since you came back with another response, hear me out:

You took my comment out of context. Aside from the fact that Saakashvili foolishly thought that the US and NATO would support him, the fact is Georgia attacked first. Russia was entitled to a response. But, its response was way out of proportion. I did not support, nor do I support unproportional response of Russia.

I never believed in the Soviet system either. The fact that you lump all the people on the left side of the political spectrum with the old Soviet Union only indicates the correctness of what I told you in my last comment.

What I said about the Russia/Georgia war was, a multipolar world is in the interest of peace everywhere, and emergence of Russia helps that. That is what I said, that is what I meant, and is what I stand by.

I published an article about this almost two weeks ago in a political site.

Mammad


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Mammad

Jamshid

by Mammad on Sat Aug 23, 2008 02:12 PM PDT

Thank you for your calm response.

1. I never called Kinzer a scholar. I never said that Mirfetros is or is not a scholar. All I said was, you are, to my knowledge, the first who calls him as such.

2. I never said Dr. Mosaddegh was perfect. It is the overall track record that counts.

3. You are absolutely correct about criticism of Emam Hossein. People are thrown in jail for criticising the mollahs, let alone Emam Hossein. 

4. I did not change the subject regarding the Shah and state-sponsored terrorism. I just said it was in that context - the way for example the US talks about the IRI's support for such things - that I made my comment. You think that I changed the subject, so be it. I can only explain what I meant. The rest is up to you.

And regarding our old debate about the oil income: I made one mistake, you corrected me, and I accepted it.

5. Capitalism is not defined the way you described it. But, you want to counter my argument like this, ok. That is fine.

6. Oh, dear, am I ever ready to hear criticism. I just listed some of the abuses in another comment to factfinder. I am not a victim. Nobody put the gun to my head to comment here. I can stop it any moment I want. That is not the point.

7. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I said so. But personal opinion is different from expert opinion. An example:

You say that you neither believe in my lestist thinking nor in my religion, but then you immediately say that I am neither. So, this is your personal opinion, and respected. But, it is not an expert opinion. That is all I meant.

8. Regarding "traitor:" I said there is a classic, accepted definition of who a traitor is, one type of whom is what I described. Then, taking that, and my own thinking of what is or what is not in Iran's national interests (and I could be completely wrong), I can make no conclusion other than what I said. We cannot invent new definitions or concepts, just because we do not like the already accepted ones. I do see your point in this word being strong.

8. Regarding the 1953 coup: This discussion will never go anywhere. The best evidence for it is all the emtions, angry comments, accusations, finger pointing, and name calling about Ms. Amini's article. Let's agree to disagree, and move on.

Mammad


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Mr Mammad

by factfinder (not verified) on Sat Aug 23, 2008 02:12 PM PDT

Sorry if I sounded a little witty in my last comment. The comment that mystreiously went missing was not abusive or even derisory. So I resubmit an edited version of the same comment (with the part critical of Ms Amini and Mosaddeq omitted) to keep JJ and moderators happy and hope it can be published. Here is what I wrote:

Mr Mammad,

You seem to have appointed yourself as the judge to decide who is (or is not) qualified to comment on anything. Interesting position I should say but may I ask what are your credentials to assume such a role? You are admittedly a committed Muslim:

"The Islam that I believe in is a religion advocating most, if not, all of the ideals that I listed below. Yes, if I were a Marxist leftist, then there could have been some arguments. But, I am not."

So by your own criterion, you are not qualified to comment on Marxist/Tudehi or broadly speaking leftist affairs. Or perhaps, you are what may be called an Islamic Marxist (a title commonly given to the MKO members)?!! Please feel free to come open with your closeted tendencies. This is an open forum and you are just as anonymous as many others, myself included. Otherwise, by being a devoted Muslim, as you claim you are, you remain disqualified to comment on leftist issues. Unless you redefine "leftists" to cover the Muslims as well as non Muslims which is a rather stretched out definition.

Also, your list of supposedly leftist ideals is not exclusive to the left and is widely upheld as democratic objectives by nearly all the established democracies in the world, whether run by a leftist or a rightist government. Unless, you suggest that there is no such thing as a right winger democracy!! But these objectives are not necessarily Islamic ideals, most significantly this one:

"Left means equality of rights — all rights — for every citizen, regardless of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, age, or sexual orientation"

As you, by your own definition are not qualified to comment of the Left, let us leave the Left issues aside. Let us talk about Islam. I don't know what branch of Islamm you believe in but to my knowledge, no shade or color of Islam has endorsed equality in such rights as inheritance, testimonials, marriage, blood money and a few more, when it comes gender, religion or sexual orientation. Female Muslims inherit less (half) from their parents/spouse than their male equivalents. Female Muslims cannot marry a non-Muslim but male Muslims can. And, I have not heard if Sharia law has endorsed same sex marriages. The most notorious of such breach of human rights happens under the Islamic Republic of Iran. Bahaiis are case in point. Therefore your arguments collapse when they address the above issues.

Finally, Mr Mammad, collaborating with a foreign power is not necessarily against the interests of one's country otherwise German, Italian and French resistance must have been branded traitors for working with the Allies to remove Hitler, the Vichy regime and Mussolini! Therefore, your definition of traitors is exclusive to yourself and is not even shared by your hero Dr Mosaddeq who appointed General Zahedi, the same allegedly pro-Nazi officer and traitor, using your words, to a highly sensitive post, as his Home Affairs minister in his cabinet (a few months later Zadehi resigned from Mosaddeq's cabinet and joined the Senate).

Your displeasure at seeing any critique of Mosaddeq's era (or swimming against the current as you say) smacks of a closeted dogmatic attitude that has not found the chance to be fully outed. For your sake, I hope it never does.

Regards

FF


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Mammad - Please at Least Be Honest

by Anonymous Observer (not verified) on Sat Aug 23, 2008 01:56 PM PDT

I know that I promised not to debate with you, but you are so outrageously disingenuous that I think the dishonesty in your long winded comments should be pointed out to the readers. You are “anti-violence”?!!! You are anti neo-colonialism?!!! Give us a break, and be honest…at least once. You are not anti-violence or anti neo-colonialism-you are a desperate Islamo-left anti-American individual. Here you are just a couple of days ago on this very site congratulating Russia on its illegal invasion of Georgia:

“I agree with you. The re-emergence of Russia as a great power is a counterweight to the reckless, criminal adventures of the U.S., Britain, and France in the Middle East and around it.”

Here’s the link to that comment:

//iranian.com/main/2008/un-not-usapage1

So, when the U.S. invades Iraq, it’s criminal, murderous, illegal, etc…, but when your old socialist buddies invade another country, destroy homes, turn the population into refugees and kill people it’s the best thing that has happened since sliced bread.

As I have said many times, give it up. “dastetoon roo shodeh”. People of Iran have realized what you stand for. For at least six decades you have caused Iran great harm, the culmination of which was the menace of the 1979 Revolution. You will have no relevance in the future of a new, prosperous Iran.

I doubt that this comment will get posted by your friends at Iranian.com, but I will try anyway.


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Mammad

Anonymous Observer

by Mammad on Sat Aug 23, 2008 01:44 PM PDT

Thank you for your response.

Your opinion is, of course, respected. I have no problem with you or anybody thinking that way.

But, your utopia of "personal responsibily" means that,

there are 49 million people in the U.S. (1/6 of the total population) who are without health care;

10 million small children in the US do not have health care;

manufacturing jobs are flying out of this country, going to other places, where people work for $1/day under the worst conditions. So, not only they ruin the communities that they leave behind, they also exploit the people to whom they go to;

5 million people in this country are homeless;

if you live in the inner cities, you and/or your children have practically no chance of getting a decent education. 

Most importantly, your utopia of personal responsibility means that if, for example, common people lose their homes due to hardship, it is fine, but if the banks that provided the loans for the same homes start going down due to their greed, they will be rescued by the government. And this is just one example of the government interferring (military industry is another example).

So, there is government interference, but in favor of the rich and the affluent.

And, no, I suspect that the "garbage" that describes the deep differences between communism, socialism, and democratic socialism was not taught to you. If it had been, you would have at least differentiated them, before starting to use "garbage."

Have a good weekend. 

Mammad


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jamshid

Re: Mammad

by jamshid on Sat Aug 23, 2008 01:41 PM PDT

My pen does not target only you, it targets many others as well. However, you are being too centered around yourself and see it that way. You should reconsider.

If you pick the work of the buffoonic Kinzer over Mirfetros's, that is your choice and I am fine with it. However, you cannot simply and conveniently dismiss Mirfetros as a "none scholar" just because you don't like his work, and on the other hand consider Kinzer, a reporter, as a scholar.

Facts cannot be based on conveniences and likes or dislikes.

Mirfetros does not bash Dr. Mossadegh. He gives Mossadegh credit when it is due, and criticizes him when it is due as well. However, we Iranians, including myself, are so used to seeing Mossadegh as pure perfection, that even the slightest criticism of him would be considered "bashing".

Go to Iran and slightly, ever slightly, criticise Emaam Hossein. Just try. We must not elevate anyone to levels at which he is immune from ciriticism. This is not a proper attitude.

I will not comment any further regarding your remaks on the Shah committing the first state terror act in Iran. When I challenged this remark, you just changed it to, "I meant OUTSIDE of Iran". Oh well. This reminds me of our oil price/inflation discussion long ago.

On another note, I believe you are a capitalist. capitalists believe that men have the right to work, to trade, to employ others, to work for others, to own land, save money and so on. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you believe in these ideals too.

Therefore, in your own words, "if you TRULY believe in those ideals, then you are a (capitalist), regardless of whether you like it or not, or whether you recognize it or not."

Do you now see the flaw in your logic?

You are entitled to your opinion, but when you accuse individuals of being "traitors", which is a strong and serious accusation, then you should be ready to hear a strong counter opinion too. Please don't be sensitive and don't play the "victim" role.

You say that I am not qualified to have an opinion on Islam or on the Islamo-left. Fine, then why do you reply to me? This reminds me of mollahs who have been saying the same thing to the masses about Islam for centuries in order to maintain their monopoly on Islam.

I believe that all citizens all "qualified" and entitled to form their opinion, even a person from a remote dehaat. Do you object?

Lastly, in my opinion. Dr. Mossadegh's overthrow did not conflict with Iran's national interests. I would have barked as such statement in the past, but with time I have reformed my opinion. I believe that Mossadegh was a genuine nationalist patriot, but he did not have the necessary political skills to handle the oil issue. There were better diplomatic ways to handle the oil issue than a stuborn and dangerously risky "all or nothing" approach.


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Mammad

Factfinder

by Mammad on Sat Aug 23, 2008 01:22 PM PDT

I am sorry that your comment was not posted.

But, unlike what you imply, I need no protection. If there is to be "protection," it should be based on knowledge and strength of our conviction and arguments. I'll be happy to debate you and the facts that you can find, if I happen to disagree with them.

But, the fact that you could not contain yourself, calling me Molla Mammad (it is funny!), gives some hint on what your comments were all about. This is not, of course, the first time. 

I have been called "begheyrat," "bisharm," etc., only because my comments were disliked by some. I was told that I got my education in a "tavileh." I was told that I am "ahmagh," and that people (i.e., the commentator, generalizing for others) feel bad that I am in education, because I must be a lousy educator.

One commentator called me Mamali, as small children are called. One called me Haji, intended to be insulting the way U.S. soldiers call ALL Iraqis, thinking that I did not know. You call me Molla. This never ends. My reaction?

I do not believe that such insulting behavior has anything to do with my leftist views. There are other leftists who comment in this column.

It just has to do with the fact that I have declared repeatedly - and proudly so - that I am a practicing Muslim. I have also been one of the most tolerant people, after some of the worst absuses anybody has suffered on this site, a sample of which was given above. 

The fact is, it just bothers some people who comment in this column to see a Muslim to be tolerant, moderate, antiwar war and violence, speak with conviction, and, to the extent that he is capable of, with knowledge. This just destroys the stereotype that they have made of Muslims. That is the crux of the issue, the motivation behind all the attacks.

Does all of this deter me? Absolutely not. Anyone who knows anything about politics and commenting on it knows that such insults and unfair attacks come with the territory. It is part of it. So, we should either not enter the political arena, or have a thick skin for such attacks, aside from the fact that my religion forbids me from retaliating the same way. It is utterly easy to insult people. But, not so, if we want to remain calm and tolerant, and respond with dignity. 

Mammad


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Mammad

by Anonymous Observer (not verified) on Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:52 PM PDT

First, you do not need to lecture me on various forms of socialism. I was force fed this garbage in full detail a long time ago. But I unfortunately cannot have a rational discussion with someone who brings up "Emam Ali" in the discussion, as the injection of religion into a discussion will automatically take the objectivity of the debaters away. Second, I will not waste my time typing things up in response to you as they will be deleted.

I do want to say, howeever, that it may come as a shock to you and the other Iranian socialists who have taken over this site, but some of us Iranians are AGAINST government interference in people's lives. Some of us are AGAINST universal healthcare. Some of us are against an over-taxed welfare society such as Sweden which you cite as your utopia. Some of us are AGAINST the idea of governments being peoples' guardian and supporting them from cradle to the grave. Some of us are for the idea of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and individualism. That is what makes you a socialist and sets your ideology apart from mine.

I am personally sick and tired of all these leftists that plague the Iranian scociety, constantly wanting to keep us in this welfare state mentality. But, again..I do not see that I can properly debate the issues with you.


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Molla Mammad Jaan

by factfinder (not verified) on Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:08 PM PDT

Someone up there, or down here raher is protecting you from seriously critical comments. No it is nof God. Its his rep on the net: JJ. He deleted my response to you just to keep you happy. Go thank him. Go!


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Mammad

Anonymous Observer

by Mammad on Sat Aug 23, 2008 09:20 AM PDT

1. I am very sorry that your comments were not posted. I had no role in it.

2. Having said that, I must say that you are making it up when you say I praised communism. I never praised communism. Communism is based on dialectic materialism which I, as a practicing Muslim, reject. You are ascribing things to me that I neither believe in, nor have I ever talked about. In fact, I have not even uttered the word "communism" in any of my comments, at least as long as I remember.

3. Socialism is NOT the same as communism. The communists themselves consider socialism the stage BEFORE full blown communism. At least learn such differences when you want to criticise which, if constructive and polite, I and people like me appreciate.

4. In fact, I have not praised or rejected socialism either. You are making that up also. I have never ever said that I am socialist, although I agree that what I stand for has a lot in common with democratic socialism. I have always said that I am on the left side of the political spectrum - a leftist. What I stand for are,

(a) SOCIAL JUSTICE and opposition to EXPLOITATION, when it comes to the affairs of a society. To me, that is the crux of the issue: being for social justice and against exploitation, regardless of what you call it.

The Islam that I believe in stands for the same. As Emam Ali said, "Hich sarvati jam' nemishavad, magar aankeh hagh kasi khordeh shavad." He, of course, meant huge wealth. 

(b) Opposition to colonialism (in its classical and neo- forms), imperialism (invading and occupying other nations; threatening them; trying to overthrow their governments; imposing genocidal sanctions on them, as in the case of Iraq which killed hundreds of thousands of children).

Tell me: Which of these are you for or against? 

5. You also do not seem to know the difference between classical socialism, and democratic socialism which has always existed in such countries as Sweden, and evolved elsewhere after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It is democratic socialism that is thriving. The leftist governments in Western Europe, part of Eastern Europe, and in Latin America believe in this. They were all elected democratically, and they will all go when people reject them.

Tell me: What is wrong with this?

6. Like you, I also believe in secular republic for Iran. But, in a truly republican system, the leftist political parties can also compete and win their elections. If that happens, then they can try to implement their programs. If successful, people will elect them again. If not, they will be rejected. The same is equally true of the rightist parties, or centrist parties.

Tell me: What is wrong with this? What kind of democratic republic system do you support that does NOT allow that?

Saying that you support a secular republic based on nationalism is, in my opinion, meaningless. Both right and left can be nationalists. They are NOT mutually exclusive. Even a communist butcher and murderer like Stalin called the war against the Nazis "the great patriotic war," not "the great communist war" or "the great proletarian war."

I would very much appreciate a debate about such issues. But, please, come back for debate if you want to comment on these, and be polite. I am already being abused enough. 

Mammad


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Iranian.com Censorship - Also Good Job Jamshid & Ferdows

by Anonymous Observer (not verified) on Fri Aug 22, 2008 08:22 PM PDT

You know, since Mammad responded to my comments, I have tried twice to post a reply, but-even though Mammad is allowed to publish book length pieces praising communism- neither of my comments, which were pretty polite and addressed the points in his comments were published.... So much for "nothing is sacred" slogan...Soooooo, I guess that I will have to limit my comments to praising yours....although I do not believe at this point that Mr. Javid or other "moderators" on this site have the courage to post this comment either.....

You are both right....as I said before, Socialist ideology is dead, and these fossils know it...Socialism is a failed doctrine that belongs in the trash bin of world history. Fortunately, Iranians have realized this fact as well through their terrible first hand experience with this bankrupt ideology.

The only solution for Iran is a secular Republic founded on Iranian nationalism, which is the only unifying force in the Iranian society. Trust me, we will get there.


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Mammad

Jenaab-e Sohrab_Ferdows

by Mammad on Fri Aug 22, 2008 06:28 PM PDT

Yeah, right. What is happening today in Latin America is the same old Tudeh party in Iran! Apparently, the left has lost the credibility, but still retains considerable power for fooling people!! They still have not learnt their lesson. I wonder why?

Yeah, right, again. The neoliberal economic policy of the World Bank and the International Monetrary Funds that ruined Latin America for three decades was the real thing. But, hey, people could be fooled again, after going through that experience. Plus, according to another expert in this site, the neoliberals were not successful because people were corrupt.

But, don't worry. Leftists are irrelevant!

Mammad


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Mammad

Jamshid

by Mammad on Fri Aug 22, 2008 06:19 PM PDT

As usual, out of all the persons who comment here, your "sharp" pen is targetted towards me. It seems that you have made this a mission for yourself. That is fine.

Let me just say a few words about what you told Bravura: Between Kinzer and Mirfetros - a man who wants to make a name for himself by swimming against the current - I take the former any time. You are also the first person that I know who calls Mirfetros a scholar. Scholar of what? Bashing Dr. Mosaddegh has become an industry among some Iranians. But, that is just my humble opinion.

1. I used state-sponsored terriorsm in the context that is now being used, namely, a state/government sponsoring/supporting a terrorist act OUTSIDE its border. In this sense I was correct and stand by what I have said.

2. Once again, you use inappropriate words and phrases. Yes, I strongly believe that the secular right and the religious right, not only in Iran but also elsewhere, have many things in common. In the US, the secular right and ultraright and the religious right support many common goals. There is just overwhelming evidence for it. You do not agree with it, so be it.

3. Well, dear, if you TRULY believe in those ideals, then you are a leftist, regardless of whether you like it or not, or whether you recognize it or not.

4. Whether I damage the left is subject to debate, but it is something that the leftists should decide. You are not, in your own words, a leftist. So, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I should say that you are not qualified to pass judgement.

5. You are neither a leftist (according to your own words) nor Islamic. That immediately disqualifies you from passing judgement on me as either a leftist or Muslim. My peers can do. Have your opinion, that is fine and respected, but be aware that you are not qualified.

The Islam that I believe in is a religion advocating most, if not, all of the ideals that I listed below. Yes, if I were a Maxist leftist, then there could have been some arguments. But, I am not.

6. I have my opinion regarding the people who participated in the 1953 coup. I am nobody, but even nobody is entitled to his opinion. This coming from a man who tells me what I am or am not.

7. Whether there could have been diplomatic solution to the 1951-1953 crisis is subject to debate. Thoughtful people on both sides have opinions. But, that is separate from the core issue that I was commenting on, namely, the coup itself. What you are saying might very well be valid, but could not have been a license or justification for the coup.

8. I never claimed that I am only person who is right about the coup. Show me one sentence that even implies this. I just expressed my opinion. I do not know why you have problem with that. Oppose my opinion. Hate it. Despise it, Reject it. Consider it trash. Each and every one of your sentiments will be respected. But, have the tolerance to hear me out without saying, "who do you think you are?" This is an exchange of opinion only.

But, the way I see things, and based on the classical definition of traitor, I can come to no conclusion other than this. One type of traitor (there are, of course, other types) is someone who collaborates with a foreign government in a plot against his/her nation's national interests. If I see the overthrow of Dr. Mosaddegh's government as being against Iran's national interests, then I must reach the unavoidable conclusion.

It does not mean that I am correct. I am only trying to point out that I make the statement based on my analysis of the situation, and based on what I know. It is not an emotional burst.

9. I do agree with your last paragraph and hope for the same.

Mammad


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Sohrab_Ferdows

Mammad

by Sohrab_Ferdows on Fri Aug 22, 2008 04:15 PM PDT

I have no intention of engaging in any discussion with you and respond to your rhetoric and name calling but since you seem to be a "fresh of boat lefti", I have to let you know that it takes more than shooting a few beautiful, vague and empty slogans to run a society! I appreciate your sense of humor and your philosophy lesson but you don't seem to have understood what I stated earlier.

 

Just in case if more clarification is needed, I must reiterate here that tudeh party represented "leftist" camp for a good period in modern history of our nation. I don't mean to change the track of discussion about historical events in 1950's but in order to point one clear fact, the "leftist" movement which is "alive and kicking" in south and central America (according to you) is nothing different from what tudeh party stood for! Painting communism ideology with different colours to cover it and call it something else and denying that they are all the same is just an old tactic of "LIES" and "DECEPTION" which has been constantly employed by leftist camp. And the only reason for that is total political bankruptcy of the ideology which even its followers try to deceive themselves by pretending that it is something else!

cheers!


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jamshid

A few responses

by jamshid on Fri Aug 22, 2008 03:13 PM PDT

Rashidian:

Thank you for your response. When I said the mollahs opposed the Shah, I didn't mean in the 50s, but well after that time. And regarding democracy, I don't think the Iranian masses in the 1950s could even understand the word.

Today is different though, and I think we are ready for a true democracy. I agree with the rest of your remarks. Also, to use your own words, these are minor differences of opinion compared to the much greater similar opinions we have today for our country.

Bravura:

Why would anyone want to read Kinzer, a buffoon who admitted to have learnt the details of Iran's 50s events, just a few years before he wrote his book? I strongly suggest reading Iranian scholars' work instead. Here is a good source:

//www.mirfetros.com/

Mammad:

You referred to the killing of Bakthiar as the first state sponsored terrorist act by Iran (by the government of the shah). Do you know of any Iranian "rejaal" who were killed during the Ghajars by order of the Iranian government? Please don't degrade your reputation in your haste to demonize the Shah.

You wrote, "Is the similarity between secular Iranian rightists and Islamic Iranian rightists not interesting?"

Your attempt to associate "right wingers" beliefs with those of the IRI is at best, a below-the-belt blow that misses the target. You and your religious and political ideals are much closer to those at the helm in Iran today. Your audacity and hyprocrisy to make such comparisions is beyond belief.

You make a long list of ideals such as social justice, decent wage, anti colonialism, equality, etc, and then so arrogantly claim that all these ideals belong to the "left" only. I and many others believe in all those ideals too, but I am definitely neither an open nor a closet leftist.

I do have many common grounds with the left, but the likes of you have damaged the left's reputation in the same manner and to the same degree than the IRI has damaged Islam, that many people try to stay away.

In my opinion you neither represent the left nor Islam. You only represent a melange of Islamo-leftist ideals that is neither pure Islam nor pure left. It is only the results of your inability to only either accept the pure Islam or the pure left. In order to hang on to both, you mix the two incompatible and conflictive ideals of Islam and left, a-la-Shariati style, and come up with a flawed "ma'joon" that only yourself could understand.

Later, you declared that those who collaborated with the 1953 events against Mossadegh were traitors against Iran and Iranians. Just who do you think you are to make such a claim? God?

There are many, including myself, who one day thought like you, perhaps even more strongly. But today, I believe that Mossadegh, as patriotic as he was, but through his lack of political skills, was taking Iran to an abyss from which there would be no return. I sincerely believe that there were better diplomatic ways to handle the 1950s oil issue than just being stuborn.

I am sure there were those who thought the same way in those days and decided to turn against Mossadegh, but many of them happened to love Iran just as much as anyone else did.

You call them traitors, others call them saviors. What makes you think that they didn't love their country just as much as you do? What makes you think that you are the only one who is right? What special privilege or status do you hold that makes you right and all others wrong? What gives you the right to declare an idividual "traitor"?

And no, I am not advocating that your camp has to remain silent. Quite the contrary, these issues must be discussed by all sides. Hopefully one day, they can be publicy debated in Iran in a civil manner and without fear of persecution. Then, only after hearing all sides, people can decide for themselves. Do you have any objections?


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Mammad

Sohrab_Ferdows

by Mammad on Fri Aug 22, 2008 01:54 PM PDT

Sir:

With all due respect, if you do not know that left is a broad spectrum, and not everybody on the left was or is a Tudeh-ei, then you are not even qualified to speak of the left. This is the most elementary aspect of knowledge about the political spectrum.

By a "shah parast" or whatever you want to be or aspire to be. Call a pro-Nazi officer like Zahedi a patriot. That is your right. But, speak with knowledge; otherwise, silence is the only respectable action.

 

Mammad


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Sohrab_Ferdows

Old LIES and falsification of history does not work any more

by Sohrab_Ferdows on Fri Aug 22, 2008 01:08 PM PDT

Leftists should keep themselves a million miles away from old propaganda stories of 1953 if they want to separate themselves from what tudeh party has done to Iranian people.

 

Iranian people will not give in to bullying of some propagators of false history any more! If you have something of substance then prove it and bring your documents and facts and stop name calling!

 

General Zahedi who is called traitor by some illinformed and ignorant posters here was a close partner of late Dr. Mosadegh for a period of time and he was one of the most sincere nationalists around him. It was not him alone who retracted his support of Dr. Mosadegh because of his mistakes, many others did the same but late Mosadegh, under pressure from Fatemi and Mozafar Firooz, continued on the path which ended with disaster.

 

These facts along with many more are irrefutable in any way. It is also a fact that late Dr. Mohammad Mosadegh was a member of "Adamiyat Society" which became the foundation of a "masonic lodge" later on. Himself has explained his association with this society in his book (//usera.imagecave.com/sohrab/Mos-Adamiyat-1.jpg  and //usera.imagecave.com/sohrab/Mos-Adamiyat-2.jpg) and the letter with his own handwriting when taking the oath of loyalty has been recovered from documents of Adamiyat Society (here: //usera.imagecave.com/sohrab/mos_2.jpg).

 

Having said all of this, I refuse to beleive that Dr. Mosadegh had bad intentions for our homeland but his actions were definitely not the best as expected from someone in his position. with avialbility of plenty of documents, interviews and pictures from which many historical issues regarding events of august 1953 have come to light, it is unfortunate to see that every time, a new generation of "Mosadegh defenders" try to fabricate their own stories and sell it as history to the public! enough is enough of LIES and deception! stop lying to yourselves and to people!

 

Mosadegh climbed to power through democracy but refused to leave the power when he was asked by same democratic institutions which had given him the power. Democracy is not only for garbing power through peaceful process, it is also about LEAVING the power peacefully too when law orders that! In fact, the second part is the most important part of democracy! 


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Mammad

IRANdokht jaan

by Mammad on Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:58 AM PDT

What can I say, other than, I am grateful to you for your kindness. Thank you.

Mammad


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IRANdokht

Dear Mammad

by IRANdokht on Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:10 AM PDT

I loved reading your comment. You speak very clearly and express your views in a concise and direct way. I do have different beliefs than yours on certain issues, but your knowledge and style commands nothing less than total respect.


The left does not rehash the 1953 coup, as if it happened yesterday. It
talks about it because, in left's view, we Iranians have not yet
learned from it. So long as we do not learn from history, we are bound
to repeat it.

Just take a look at this column. Just see the emotions, the anger,
the accusations, the finger pointing, about one simple, universally
-accepted fact (even by the perpetrators): The 1953 coup was a foreign
designed, sponsored, and carried out (with the help of some Iranian
traitors) plan againt Iran and Iranians, and their national interests.

Thank you!

IRANdokht


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A free Mason??

by Ferdos (not verified) on Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:18 AM PDT

In Encyclopedia Iranica, under the editorship of Dr. Ehsan Yarshater, Volume X page 215 under the title:
Masonic affiliation or non-affiliation of Prime Ministers: 1906-78 there is a long list.

According to this list,
Mohammad Mossadegh, Ali Amini, Jamshid Amuzegar and Shapur Bakhtiar are listed as NON MASON.

I implore you to read more and read with objectivity.
the fact is the smear campaign agaisnt Mossadegh has never worked.

The two empires couldn't do it.
The Pahlavis-father and son couldn't do it
The Islamic Republic and Mr. Khomeini could not do it, and neither can any of you.

The fact is that unanimously, the judge, the jury and the people have made their judgement of him in history.
Mossadegh's name has entered history as a man of honor, of integrity, of a defender of law and a champion of democracy, not just in Iran but the whole world.


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Mammad

Anonymous observer

by Mammad on Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:03 AM PDT

If, as you claim, the left and the Islamic left are dinasours, then you have nothing to woory about. They are of no consequence. But, clearly, whenever I, and people like me, make a comment here, it provokes a lot of reaction. That is the same in every website, publication, etc. That is telling. In addition, in every corner of the globe, left is relevant, alive and kicking. Just take a look at Central and South America. It is clear why. I repeat what I have said many times: 

Left means social justice.

Left means universal health care

Left means affordable education for everyone

Left means the right to a decent wage

Left means the right to decent housing

Left means the right to decent care in your old age

Left means equality of rights - all rights - for every citizen, regardless of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, age, or sexual orientation 

and,

Left means anti-colonialism (economic or military type)

Left means anti-imperialism (Iraq, Afghanistan, ...)

Left means anti-exploitation (NAFTA, a globalization that has benefitted only the multinational corporations)

You may say, "I believe in the same, but I am not a leftist," to which I would respectfulyy respond, "no, you do not believe in them, unless your sustained, untiring support, in any shape or form, demonstrates it. But if you still think so, then, my dear, you are a closet leftist and you do not know!"

The left does not rehash the 1953 coup, as if it happened yesterday. It talks about it because, in left's view, we Iranians have not yet learned from it. So long as we do not learn from history, we are bound to repeat it.

Just take a look at this column. Just see the emotions, the anger, the accusations, the finger pointing, about one simple, universally -accepted fact (even by the perpetrators): The 1953 coup was a foreign designed, sponsored, and carried out (with the help of some Iranian traitors) plan againt Iran and Iranians, and their national interests.

So, you Mr./Ms./Mrs./Dr./Professor (whatever you are) democracy: Can you tell me why in this environment, in this tense, but still very relevant, discussion, the left's input not desired, unwanted, or irrelevant? What are you advocating for us? Silence, so that you feel better or relaxed or not worried?

Mammad


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Same old stories all ver again

by Sohrab Ferdows (not verified) on Fri Aug 22, 2008 09:40 AM PDT

There is really nothing new in this article which has not been addressed in very clear way previously and repeating it hundred more times will not make it more credible either. Some epeople have tried for a very long time to raise late Dr. Mosadegh to place of god or someone who was absolutely not capable of making mistakes! That is pure nonsense and in most cases, it is to attach some importance to their own cause by representing themselves as "defender" of Late Mohammad MOsadegh. Dr. Mosadegh, although an experienced and old politician, had some weaknesses which were being taken advantage of by some suspicious figures like Mozafar Firooz and Dr. Hussein Fatemi who were both linked to tudeh party which had prepared itself for takeover of the country through its influence in military.

The only reason that late Dr. Mosadegh did not give in to the pressure by Hussein Fatgemi and Mozafar Firooz (who was brother in law of late Dr. Kianoori, the leader of tudeh party) in order to call on the public to show their support in the streets, was his suspicion of tudeh party's intentions. There is no question that Dr. Mosadegh had noble intentions as far as oil nationalization but his methods involved too much of inapropriate actions as a national leader and he made some mistakes in his calculations. Today, it is clear that even though Dr. Mosadegh was a brave and intelligent leader but the damage to Iran's young democracy was direct result of his actions when he refused to abide by the constitution according which he was appointed as Prime Minister of the country.

He was wrong to dissolve the Parliament and he was wrong to refuse to step down when he received the letter from Shah in which he was released of duties according to the law of the land. He broke the same laws and disregarded the same cosntitution which he had gained his power from. He dissolved the same parliament that had assigned him as PM and called all parliament members agents of British right in front of parliament!

It does not matter where I was or where hundreds of other people were on that day, if you want to pick and choose your facts and call them history, you wil do that anyways but, is that realy "history"? I don't think so!


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Mammad

Anonymous witness

by Mammad on Fri Aug 22, 2008 09:37 AM PDT

With all due respect, I disagree with your main contention. I am even surprised that you say so.

Why was Dr. Mosaddegh telling or asking or ordering his supporters to resign from Majles unconstitutional? Show me one clause in Iran's old Constitution that declared so, since you call this unconstitutional.

In addition, in any democracy, any political group has the right to take action when they believe their action advances their plitical program and agenda. That is one facest of democracy. A most recent example

Members of Likud Party in Israel left and formed Kadima. That toppled the government and called for new elections.

British political parties dissolve the parliament at will and early, when they sense that if they call for new elections earlier than the actual time, they benefit. The same thing with all Western European democracies. No one calls such manuevers unconstitutional.

Mammad


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When reason fails, ranting sails!

by factfinder (not verified) on Fri Aug 22, 2008 07:37 AM PDT

Mr Kazemzadeh

As an academic you should not only be impartial in your pursuit of truth but you should also be discerning. I can see you are neither. You are not impartial because you are, like your un-academic co-writer Ms Amini, enamored with Mosaddeq. This instantly makes your argument invalid. You do not exercise discernment either. In your mind people must be accepted or rejected entirely. There is no “in-between” alternative. Somewhat like your President, GW Bush - “you are either with us or with them” kind of mentality. Let me elaborate: NO ONE IS ENTIRELY GUILTY OR ENTIRELY INNOCENT. Similarly, no one is wholly black or wholly white. With this in mind now read my reply:

I am fully aware of who Farhad Diba is and what he stands for. Therefore, when I quote a reference from his book, I do it with full understanding that he is a nephew of Dr Mosaddeq and therefore cannot be impartial toward him. I not only had read the “second page” that you referred to, I have read a few chapters of his book which I had it on loan. Therefore Mosaddeq’s membership of the Adamiyat Society is so collectively accepted that even a loyal supporter and a close relative of Mosaddeq cannot dispute it. But here is where discernment must kick in. Not all things that Diba says are right (or wrong, if you will). Similarly, not all things that the Shah or Khomeini preached were right or were wrong. One, particularly an academic researcher, must carefully examine the evidence and decide where the line can be drawn. If I were to choose an authoritative source on this issue, I would not seek help from the likes of Diba or Katouzian – both ardent pro-Mosaddeq writers, with strong ties to the Qajar clan where Mosaddeq had come from. They are the toasts of the Qajari festive gatherings and conferences. Nor do I go to such sworn Shahollahi writers as Shamshiri, for instance. I chose from the most independent and authoritative references of modern times, Encyclopedia Iranica. Here, a team of researchers (and not only one or two writers with an agenda) have carefully researched and selected sources of unbiased and impartial scholarly work and after a thorough scrutiny they have selected and edited the articles that would best and truthfully tell the story or the definition, etc. Diba and Katouzian may have been approached for opinion on such issues but clearly their’s is not an objective one, hence not used as reference on this issue.

There is no evidence that Mosaddeq was a short-term member of the Adamiyat Masonic Lodge for a week or two or a month or so and no resignation letter has ever been published. Besides, even if we assume this has been the case, it is a clear demonstration of a mind that was weak and vacillated. Therefore, in the absence of any impartial a reliable evidence, my assertion, together with those of many independent writers, that Mosaddeq was a member of the Adamiyat Masonic Lodge remains intact

But your knee-jerk reaction and that of Ms Amini to any suggestion of Mosaddeq being a Mason is quite telling. I am not surprised by Ms Amini’s outburst as she lacks the ability to see things without emotional prejudice, of which she is very proud. But I am so very disappointed by you as you are supposed to know that Iran’s Freemasonry was not entirely in league with the British foreign policy diktats. In the same way that not all members of the Tudeh Party were in the services of the Stalinist soviets. There were hundreds of patriotic and respectable members of the Masonic lodges who served their country with devotion and decency. Mosaddeq could have been such a member but your fiction factories are denying him the benefit of the doubt.

And as for Ms Amini,

one can never engage in a civilized discourse with her as to her Mosaddeq is an intensely personal issue and any suggestion on impropriety on his part is shouted at in a venomous language. Ms Amini is no different than a Hezbollahi who defends his Imam, Khoemini with sharp tools. The same Shaban and Tayeb that she yells at were at first pulling knives out for their master Mosaddeq (against Tudehis). Only after Ayatollah Khashani broke ties with Mosaddeq did they join the opposition. Ms Amini, you still have a lot to learn.

And finally, Bravura,

We don’t need Stephen Keinzer to tell us if Mosaddeq was removed by a coup or not. The evidence is all there us to see. The trouble is that we don’t want to.


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This Is Our Problem

by Anonymous Observer (not verified) on Fri Aug 22, 2008 07:21 AM PDT

You see, this is our problem. We are still debating the 1953 Mossadegh disaster. I think all non-mentally ill Iranians can agree that the U.S. was wrong in orchestrating the coup that brought back the Shah and overthrew the democtratically elected government of Mossadegh. But now, 55 years later, I think that it's about time for us to put that event behind us and move forward. I hate to break it to you, but thw world has changed significantly since 55 years ago. 55 years ago, we had the Soviet Union, East Germany and Yugoslavia. It is our fascination with conspiracy theories-the Mossadegh affair actually being the one true example- that has paralyzed us from social and political progress. While societies, political systems and even countries have come and gone, we are still "andar kham-e- yek koocheh" crying about what someone did to us 55 years ago.

Rehashing the Mossadegh affair only gives reason to the Dinasour Left ( and the Dinasour Islamo-Left such as our good friend Mammad)to assert that they are still relevant.

It's alos hilliraious that the same Dinasour Left and Dinasaur Islamo-Left that still discusses the Mossadegh affair like it happened yesterday (and considers it to be the root of ALL of our problems - ignoring, of course, the past 30 years) will scream its head off when an Iranian nationalist like me talks about Iran's ancient history, and calls us "baastan gara" and racist. But that is understandable considering that objectivity and self-criticism has never been an identifying quality of this sorry bunch!!


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Darius Kadivar

Anonymous witness

by Darius Kadivar on Fri Aug 22, 2008 06:11 AM PDT

I did read your arguments and thank you for sharing, I just wish that the debate started here could be made in a civil manner between opposite views without attacking one another on a personal level ( eitherway, regardless of who is to blame) and with the adamance of trying to decipher the historical truth. Unfortunately we Iranians are not very good at this exercise and I am not sure what is the exact reason behind such often stubborn and staunch views across the political spectrum of the Iranian Intelligenstia. Maybe its a generational thing but it is common knowledge that it takes at least 30 years ( one generation) to try and have elements of truth regarding an era. It seems that in regard to Iranian History we need twice if not three times that lapse of time to look at things without a useless not to say ridiculous profusion of feelings and personal scorns. I'm not accusing anyone for this and I am not certain that I am the best to claim it either but its nevertheless my sincere observation that we Iranians have a strange not to say unique psyche. Maybe we need to go on Group Therapy to find out Why ? LOL

 


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Darius Kadivar

History is NOT about Propaganda ...

by Darius Kadivar on Fri Aug 22, 2008 06:01 AM PDT

What is incredible about us Iranians is our capacity to be so judgemental when it comes to trying to understand our contemporary history. Die Hard Mossadeghis are no different from die hard Shaholahis. They always see Iranian society as a dichotomy between black and White or Good VS Evil. As long as you cannot try and step back to look at the Big Picture with some objectivity or at best less emotion you will always sound ridiculous and pretentious.

Your level of historical objectivity towards Mossadegh or the Shah can be summed up to the Lyrics of Googoosh's  singing the following Song  :"Kuh".

Oh By the Way  for Aspiring Historians in the making, Googoosh is not responsible for the Islamic Revolution simply because she sang Agha Khoube. LOL

 


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