POINT

Dear "Flying Solo",

I don´t think that that Swiss guy placed in Tehran would start throwing molotov-cocktails: neither some other Iranians raised up in Iran nor many people in other poor countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America do that, but this would be an interesting field experiment. ;)

You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy is not only not racist, it´s proven scientific theory. Pierre Bourdieu searched and wrote about the transcending the oppositions micro and macro sociology and called it Habitus. On the one hand we build our personalities and attitudes because of our personal genetic codes, parental instructions and self-experiences, on the other hand we are located in a filed which is set by the environment and our position is the result of the interactions between the specific rules of the field. So we are the product of our parents and our environment, genetically and socially. To molecular biologists the genetic codes and first seven years seem to be most important for the building up of the personality.

Few years ago BBC showed a series of documentaries about British children visiting their countries or origin. They were adopted by original British couples immediately after their births and were educated British. And after 15 years these children visited their areas of origin (India, Africa) and although they didn´t have anything to do with their orgins before they felt there much more home than in England.

You asked, what improvement means to me. I guess I can write it this way: A perfect improved culture is a society, where (as philosophers would say) every human has the right to and the possibility for free development of the individual, and (as sociologists would say) every member has the required social and financial capital to communicate freely with every other member and is an equal member of the social system. Taking care of the women, children, minorities, criminals and animals is the logical result.

Persepolis and Sa´adi are not Iranian culture, they are Iranian history. Culture is the the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group. It´s not possible to say We do this and that but this is not our culture. These this and that build up the culture. You mentioned the ´79 revolution. The revolution was a change, a development, but not an cultural improvement as we know it in civilized countries in Europe. The most important educations are the ethical and sociocultural. I don´t see this improvement in Iran in the last 30 years.

Women abuse (dominated, beaten, marital raped), child abuse (mistreated), minority abuse (harrased), criminal abuse (lashed, stoned and killed), animal abuse (maltreaded and slayed) are the attitudes, values, goals and practices of the qualified majority of the Iranian (in and outside of Iran), and they characterize the Iranian institutions, organizations and groups. Sad but true: This is the Iranian culture.

MiNeum71 PROVE your DATA

I did NOT accuse of Lying, You did.  I am glad I can post a link, I was wrong thinking my message would be deleted if I did.  Here is the proof for 7.3 million prisoners in the U.S.:

//www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/02/record.prison.population/

I told you to seach CNN, you did NOT even bother to do so, but went ahead ranting, calling me everything (I am not saying you deserve), but please get your facts straight.  This is NOT opinion, this is statistical data by CNN, not a university professor whether famous or not.

Instead of ranting, you could simply support your data, LIKE I did.  You also proved my point of how different INTERESTS can effect statistical DATA.  You simply throw in some OUTDATED and UNVERIFIABLE (if NOT invented) DATA to PROVE you were RIGHT!

BTW, YOUR callling me a liar and trying to obfuscate your LACK of supporting statistical DATA tells our readers a lot about who likes to keep ranting.  I am NOT going to say you and the author simply generalized YOUR own PERSONAL trait to a whole NATION!  But I would say this:  Statistical DATA are closer to FACTS than OPINIONS.  SHOW ME where, at least, in your own cited references, you GOT the DATA.  Is it too much to ask?

Just to prove my point, here is the link for Global Peace Index Ranking where Iran's overall ranking is almost the same (105 versus 97 in ranking and 2.2 versus 2.3 in score) as the U.S.:

//www.visionofhumanity.org/gpi/results/rankings.php

You keep pressing on NEGATIVES, I just try to be FAIR.  But I do NOT have to say I am WRONG when you keep ranting.  I simply stop wasting my time on you.

Peace

Dear "Mohamad Purqurian",

My experience: People who write things like "colossal political and economic interests that makes almost any statistics biased" show that either they are paranoid or their knowledges are just a sad pieces.

For your Information (1): If you had read the site of Jim Hopper, you´d had mentioned that this is not an organization, he is a famous university professor  who has published data, which in this case are the UN ones. If you couldn´t search my data from either one of them, this is a problem you are dealing with (and I can expect from someone who knows everything better and thinks that the whole world is just publishing news and statistics in order to bash the Iranian culture, that he can click three times to read all the data an the AI site, please get this one without needing Internet knowledge).

For your Information (2): When you write, that in the States 7.3 million people are sitting in the prisons, then you are either a liar or short-witted (anyway, exaggerating or Chert-o-Pert Goftan is also typical Iranian): According to the International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College in London (2007), the United States has long had the world's largest prison population with 2,293,157 inmates, followed by China at 1.5 million and Russia at
885,670 (Iran: 158,351 million).

For your Information (3): 2008 Iran is ranked 105 of 140 in GPI (still behind Rvanda, China, Brasil and Turkmenistan: What is this telling to you? 

For your Information (4): Domestic violence against women and children is unique to culture, it depends to the respect of men showed for women, and this is a part of sociocultural education. Iranian men belong to the most violent in the world (1, 2) 

For your Information (5): I´m looking for common sense, I appreciate your time and effort, I´m sorry you were not a great help.

NO BASHING

no bashing allowed in an ;open honest discussion HER MINEUM 71
all the reasons you came with are Islamic laws and not (Iranian) so your conclusion is damn wrong.
please re evaluate your taughts before expressing it.
DANKE

Dear MiNeum71

I thank you for keep proving the issue is a human tendency, and it cannot be changed by changing the subject to different issues.  If you work with scientific mind more often, then you shoud appreciate the scope of an issue!  Is it too much to expect from you?  But allow me to comment on your statistics coming from nowhere (I mean as much as the original issue is concerned) in reply to TheMrs.

Do you really believe in these statistics?  For the first one you did not provide a source.  The last one AI is just a general site for Amnesty International.  The middle one is a paper by Jim Hopper NOT a well known organization.  Yet, I could NOT search your data from either one of them. 

Maybe I did not dig enough, but that is not the issue here; being SELECTIVE is the key.  Domestic violence against women and children is nothing unique to any country.  Furthermore,  no reliable statistics are available in less developed countries for a variety of reasons, and even in the industrialized world you can be SELECTIVE in sample, population, reported incidences, type of violence, etc. to get what you want.

I had a presentation just a few of mounths ago comparing Iran, Israel, the U.S. and Iceland that was on the top of list in global peace index rating.  In 2008, Iran ranked 105, the U.S. 97, and Israel 136.  But real scores are even more interesting: Iran 2.34, the U.S. 2.23, Israel 3.05, and Iceland that was on the top of the list 1.18.

In other words Israel is less than 3 times worst than Iceland (the best one according to the index) NOT 136 times as the ranking is perceived from the table!

Recently CNN reported the U.S. to have 25% of all prisoners in its prison system.  It is 1 for every 4 prisoners in the whole world!  It is 7.3 million.  Just search CNN site for 7.3 million prisoners.  Do you compare this with Iran?  Does it make America better or worst?

Since you are an academic, I thought it might help you looking for common sense instead.  And I did NOT even begin to point to colossal political and economic interests that makes almost any statistics biased.

Peace,

Good Exchange

Mr. MiNeum71

Just for clarification, by "loaded" I was referring to your post not mine. :)

You are absolutely correct on the 46 chromosome and the genome.  We all are 'chemically' the same of course, though the coding and chemical arrangment may be different - the essence is the same.

I believe humans are a product of "Nature + Nurture".  So we agree there.

I would also agree with you that educated and barbarians exist in all countries and cultures. And I would go further to agree with you that the measure of 'progress' is the higher ratio of 'educated/uneducated". 

Let's also not forget that other than 'education' in its academic format - as in having literacy, there is the social education, emotional advancement, for a lack of a better word - spiritual maturity. So, all in all, we would be talking a fairly diverse spectrum of 'advanced humans' versus the opposite to identify a 'cultured society' versus an 'under-developed' one.

I will offer you this - again because maybe I did not make myself clear the first time. Older cultures are not necessarily better but we cannot compare them with newer cultures.  For an example the English 'culture' has not 'matured' as well as say 'French' culture.  True that in many ways the Brits have a better handle on 'finance' but have they managed to become 'happier' and more productive people - say compared to the French?  I realize I am taking the discussion elsewhere but please bear with me, I am trying to make a point.

One could argue that behaviior is a supply/demand manifestation.  If a person occupies an environment which rewards 'good' behavior , then he engages in good behavior but the reverse will take place otherwise.  The Iranian diaspora for e.g. has been placed in fertile ground and it has thrived; irrespective of its 'genetics' just as the Chinese or the Indian would have thrived and does thrive in a similar fashion.

By the same token if you were to take your 'phone box bashing' Swiss and place him in Baghdad or Tehran - deprive him of daily needs - I dare say it may not be too long before he will start throwing molotov-cocktails.

I don't believe that the 'genetics' cause the violence you talk about but the 'environment'. 

Just for clarity, I have had a fairly small exposure to the Iranian culture.  In many ways I can 'see' how it may be viewed dimly from the outside, whose benchmark may be a 'western' set of specifications.  Realize though that there are a great many facets to that culture that go beyond 'vahshee-gari'.  We are witnessing vahshee-gari in Industrialized and civilized countries right now - today - this hour. 

Like I said, I am still studying this matter. 

I appreciate your vote of confidence and you are correct in that this debate is not about right or wrong but an exchange of ideas.

There is a poster here who has challenged you on defining what 'improvement' is.  I am not sure I have an answer for her - just as you don't appear to either. But let me ask you this - again - as I did earlier on, as a sociologist do you not consider it likely that a nation would need a lot more than one generation or two after an upheaval such as the '79 revolution to establish improvement or lack thereof? And hasn't there been improvement?  But news from Iran appear to support improvement - so there has been a move forward - en masse. The pace may not be as fast as some would like but it is not ALL bad or is it?  I am all ears!

Lastly, I will share with you two phrases - one in Farsi and one in English. They both pretty much say the same thing and are equally racist. 

Aaghebat gorg zadeh gorg shavad - gar cheh baa adamee bozorg shavad.

You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy.

Read the Post Again

Dear all,
Please go back and (re)read the orginal article as I did. The author says 'some' in the Iranian community and the Middle East are too 'stubborn' to listen to or accept another point of view. Judging from what has happenned in that region for the past 50 years, he may have a point.

Is this an Iranian only thing? No. Is it more prevelant in some segment (older generation) of Iranians? Yes.

He even proposes a solution by saying "In order to make our community successful in the long run, we should make good use of our diversity of thoughts, beliefs and ideas. We should seek a middle ground between thoughts and opinions while respecting all."

Finally, this is Iranian.com and 'Nothing is Sacred' including criticizing our own behavior!!

Cheers,

Mr Purqurian

It’s good that I already said I might be wrong.

Well, you had addressed me directly, so I took it personally. I apologize for misunderstanding you.

I’m aware that how generalizing could be problematic for a sound argument. And I agree that without scientific evidence these kinds of opinions do not yield to a conclusion.  However, I believe every nationality apart from individual psychology of its people, has a unique profile. This profile is ever-changing and dynamic as Iranian might not be seen as 50 years ago. Some of its characteristics are more effective with some social functions and some not. We can tell that Japanese are hardworking, and at the same time give the statistics for employment. We can tell Iranians are hospitable and give the number of positive feedbacks of tourists visiting Iran compared to other countries. We can do the same  in the terms of, for example human rights and with the number of lets say executions. All and all, we (I) should start with a critical viewpoint….and its different than self –humiliation.  

peace

Dear "TheMrs",

Normally I discuss with scientists and academics, and therefore I usually face collegues with high knowledge; but I also enjoy discussing with non academics with high common sense, this broadens my mind. I don´t know why you become personal while discussing, I don´t think that it´s necessary to insult someone with words like "you are bullshit", but anyway, it´s your business, the one you´re making a fool of is not me. Btw, this is typical Iranian.

Just for your information (1): 81% of Iranian wives have already faced domestic violence (slapped, beaten, choked, attacked with Knives) in the first year of marriage, 35% of them wanted to commit suicide, 9% of them tried it but failed, 38% of the Iranian women have faced sexual violence, 19,3% of pregnants were beaten (UN).

Just for your information (2): Child abuse rates (UN): USA 1,23% p.a., Scandinavia 0,32% p.a., Iran 16,75% p.a.

Just for your information (3): Death sentence rate (AI): Iran 4,40 per million, USA 0,14 p.m., EU 0,00

Just for your information (4): Self-knowledge is the first step toward self-improvement.

Iranian culture is bullshit and a joke. I finish my discussion with you.

An open reply to Persian Westender.

I never said you preach, and I went a long way (in comparative term) to make sure you do not take it personally, but you did!  Okay, I apologize for my failure.  In fact, I am sorry for not including you (specifically) as one of the fine people who commented on this issue in my previous comment.  But I do agree with your analytical opinion.  Yet it does not make it either right or wrong.  We simply share the same opinion.

Again, I challenged the author for singling out a nationality or people of a region for a human tendency.  It is clear to a reasonable person that he does NOT practice what he preaches, but anyone can JUSTIFY his comments, arguing FOREVER in his favor or against him!

You see, we are people, and like you said Iranians are famous for hospitality, but you go to any other country as a visitor, and I guess you would feel the same hospitality.  In fact, I have yet to watch a single Rick Steves report in which he does not find a particular people kind and receptive.  I am sure you get the point, but you are welcome to refute it. 

Rosie explained how people in different parts of the world are different in arguing an issue.  Taking her comment on its face value, I have not travelled as much as she did, but here in the states I meet (and work with) people of different nationalities on a daily basis, and my experience is simply different.  So either of us may keep arguing to prove a different view.  Does it make either one of us right or wrong?

You see, we are NOT talking about a scientific fact, not even a statistical report.  It is simply generalizing personal views.  The author, you and I maybe fed up with our fellow Iranians continuously talking politics, the past socio-political injustice, foreign interference, etc. and come to the conclusion that it is Iranians!  It sounds right to us to conclude it is Iranians, but it is as childish as a kid claiming my parents never buy me a thing!

I am not a sport fan, and sometimes I am fed up with the whole hoopla about a particular game.  I have seen young Americans argue forever to prove their favorite team lost because of this or that without ever giving in!  In fact, I know a friendship lost just because of it!  Does it give me the right to preach them NOT to have fun or not to argue just because I am indifferent to the issue or my interest is different AND I have a case in point to cite as a consequence?

To make it short, people's interests are different NOT only on the core issue, but also on how aggressive one PERSON (not an ethnicity or nationality) is in persuing his/hers.

I am also sorry for recommending (NOT ordering) you to google search for my article.  I posted a comment with the link to it, and my comment was deleted in its entirety.  I thought it was automatic and due to the link.  Then I reposted it and I received a couple of emails for the link.  I thought you and others might be interested too.  So I recommended a google search in a comment that was a reply to your comment, I guess. 

But no, I can NOT summerize or copy and paste the article here AND I take my recommendation back, if it was offensive to anyone.  Iranian.com is welcomed to publish it if it is interesting enough.  I have a rather less emotional opinion in concluding it, if I were to do it now.

Finally, I appologize if I offended someone AND In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) no one is either right or wrong.  To put it in a positive tone, everone is right, but keep in mind everyone can be wrong!  We simply have different views and opinions.  And in a public discourse, no one is given the authority to preach others.  We may decide to follow certain rules and join a discussion or simply not to.  Again that is my humble opinion. 

Having said that, IMHO, offending someone is a matter of PERCEPTION not intent.  So, while I decide to offend back an offensive remark directly or ignore it without being apologetic, and I do NOT intend to initiate offending anyone.  Then I sincerely apologize to those who perceive my comments to be offensive.

Peace, 

The question wasn't for me

The question wasn't for me but who said Iranian culture stopped or started improving anyway? Is this a serious questions?

First we would have be establish what is the iranian culture, since we're stuck on facts versus insisting that our opinions are right. This requries a lot of thought. What is it exactly, how is it different than other cultures. Is Iranian culture the same all over Iran? Or do Kords and Azaris and Baluchis have a diffrent culture than Tehranis and Rashtis? So frist we have to define what is being evaluated.

Then, it has to be proven that cultures can improve and get worse. How is this measure? Is there some sort of comparative yard stick as to other cultures? I mean to prove there is improvement in Iranian culture we have to see if other cultures "improve" over time. If none do, then why expect it from Iranians.

Then you have to analyze Iranian culture over periods of time and see how it has changed. Then, establish where things stopped improving, if ever. And how do you define that improvement?

And take it from there...

This is a very unstructured and useless question to begin with. It assumes that an entire culture can be good and then at some point in time, it goes bad. It's a very narrow view of people and habits.

It can be argued, not that I agree 100 %, that Iranians in Iran are very politically aware. More so than 100 years ago. More women are being educated at universities now than 100 years ago. Contraception has improved since 100 years ago. bla bla bla. So even if politically Iranians are at a bad point, it can be argued, Iranian culture is BEST in these times. We've retained our language and ancient traditions even in times of foreign occupation! You can argue we are improving our understanding of who we are etc...

And where does the Iranian-diasporaish culture fit into this? Which Iranians are we even talking about? Are we including Iranians who were born out of Iran....

This type of evaluation comes from very low self esteem. People who are obsessed with how our culture measures up to other cultures usually fail to see the reality of other cultures.

It's one thing to say let's see how other cultures over come some obstacles and see if that works for us too. It's another thing to say our culture is BS.

But that's just my opinion. I COULD be wrong.

Oooh Lord

When you are perfect in everyway..it is hard to be humble

Mineum

I was in a rush. The comment about your phd was meant to say that since YOU are the one with the phd in sociology and mentioned some sort of cultural condition or inheritance (I forget the name), maybe you know more. Try it again, "since you're the one with the phd right?" (did you say it calmly like you're having aconversation or confrontationally and defensively?) Man chi kar konam shoma montazerin dava konin? I said what I thought, if you were truely insulted, why even respond?

Now, as irooni bazi. What is taht exactly. Could you please define it and give examples? Because I can assure you I will be able to find many of those examples in other cultures too. But give it a shot because I really am perplexed by that expression and would love to be convinced of it. The only one time I ever saw it in practice was when my dad told me to say I was 11 (I was 12) to get half price into a zoo and my mom called it irooni bazi. To me, that's cheating. But I can get into cheating business practices and consumer habits and show how Americans and people from Zimbabwe can be expert at that too.

"There ARE better and worse cultures" You're a racist. You say no? Please name me the better cultures. Actual name of culture please. American? Jewish? African? Bangladeshi? Azari? Arab? German? Please tell me and if you have time, maybe give reasons for your choices.

 "Good cultures take care of their women, minorities, criminals and animals. "

And what culture are those? Americans? Please look at the rate of child abuse. Animals? As I understand it, in some countries (which I suspect are low on your best culture list) animals are sacred. In fact, some cultures, which I suspect are high on your best culture list, have single handedly eliminated many species off the face of the planet! Who do you think wants to drill oil in the arctic and displace populations who live there, destroy the vegetation and the animals? Who has established black markets for endangered species? What are the rates of animal abuse in say Germany versus India?

"Iranian culture? Iranian women count the half and are abused, "

Excuse me? So now half of us are victims of abuse? Where do you get these statistics. I'm not insulting you (warning), but if you have a phd in sociology maybe you have access to better data. I don't know. But can you prove this with hard facts?

"Bahai´s are harassed, death penalty is a daily routine, donkeys are maltreaded and dogs are killed. "

That's wrong, I agree. But aren't African Americans treated poorly in America? Think about it. Racism, I'm sure you know, is a socio economic oppression of a whole race. People who can't get jobs, can't get out of violent neighborhoods, don't have access to education and health care...how's that any better? Worse yet, what about cultures who kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis for oil? That's better? Give me a break dude. This is a classic case of seeing evil in yourself but not noticing it in others just because it manifests itself differently. Besides, the death penalty is much more complex than this discussion. Even in CAnada and the US there are all sorts of arguments FOR and against it.

"My conclusion: The Iranian culture is bullshit. "

No sir, you are. Your arguments are superficial and without any valid comparison to equivalent evils in other people. Analyze it a bit. For every wrong you see in Iranian culture, you can get as many wrongs in others. And not only that, they will be from the same category. But they show themselves in different areas.

People are people. All over the world. We have unique things in every culture but those are things like language and music and history...things like irooni bazi, violence against women, religious persecution are every where. Varying degrees and different times.

Is there a way to strip someone from their cultural identity? This guy here should be the first in that line.

Dear "Mohamad Purqurian",

sorry, I forgot to point out that I´m Iranian and Austrian (not Iranian Austrian), I would never criticise a subject which doesn´t concern myself (bashing others is not quite polite). But I exclude myself (as many others who wish this) from being typical Iranian having Faghat Man Dorostam mentality.

I remember that I´ve already written about my relatives personal attributes, which bring me to corroborate the hypothesis of the author.

I´m not really sure if "giving in or forgive, forget and move on" is aimed at me, there is nothing to forgive or to forget ;). Besides:"TheMrs"´s answer was not brillant.

But maybe you can answer my question I asked "Flying Solo", I´d appreciate it a lot: Why and when did the Iranian culture stopped improving?

Dear "Flying Solo",

many thanks for your Loaded Response, I enjoyed reading your lines. And this not a matter of being right anyway ;)

Human beeings all have 46 chromosomes, but the genomes are different in theirs hereditary information encoded in DNA. Today we know that e.g. beating children causes genetic damage. Environment leaves a mark on the genes. Still nobody knows exactly the effects of genetic information and the socialisation on behavoiur, but we already know that we are the genetic output AND the product of the life experiences of our parents.

Yes, you can find educated and barbarian people in every country, BUT, the differences concern 1) the proportion, and 2) the basic social knowledge of the people. Imagine a free group of 10 guys, in which only one wants to oppress others, that certainly wouldn´t work; if a second guy joins the one, it probably still wouldn´t work; but if a third guy joins the two, then you´ll have a oppressing system, because the new system has got qualified majority. And: When that one guy begins to break rank, it depends to others to convince this guy to get back to the group.

The more improved a culture is the merrier these social interactions work toward a civilized society. In a civilized culture like the Swiss or Swedish one the qualified majority - as I´ve already written for someone else - takes care of it´s women, minorities, criminals and animals; an uncivilized culture like the Iranians doesn´t. A Swiss Vah-shee maybe demolishes a phone box, an Iranian Vah-shee stones a woman to death.

The Iranian culture is a very old one, indeed, and it is NOT improved, but concerning standards prevailing at the time it was improved in some eras. So what I´m interested in is the answer to the question: Why and when did the Iranian culture stopped improving?

Mr Purqurian

1-      If you don’t have a sense of belonging to a community, that’s fine. But I DO. That’s simply why I dare to call ‘We’. I call ‘we’ because I am witnessing that there are some common patterns of behaviours and attitudes (positive and negative) in the community (take this site as an example)which I belong to (should I say ‘I’? well, I am not a community!!). If you think the sense of belonging to a community , Is not enough to criticize the community or is a fictitious concept, then we should talk in the facebook, not Iranian.com.

2-      With all due respect to your academic works, please  don’t refer me to  google –search ; to find the article wrote by you ...You can simply summerize it here and I can assure you I will try to understand it(I said ‘I’ not ‘we’).

3-      Could you please clarify what did I preach which I failed to practice?

4-      As I said before, .....I might be wrong.

Dear Mineum

I challenged the author for singling out a nationality for a human tnedency to behave illogical (if you will) in an argument that is based on different opinions on a comlex issue in which facts and views are comingled.

He proved NOT to practice what he preaches by coming back and pressing on his point with supporting emails, adding to his point by personal opinion (let's say excperience) without an iota of credit to the opposing views except, of course, for a customary thank you all.

Others have already answered you, most briliantly TheMrs and Flying Solo.  Obviously your are not a preacher like the author to totally exclude yourself from the plural "we", but like me and everyone else keep pressing to prove your point.  If I am not mistaking you called yourself an Austarian and also Rosie who seems to be a different nationality sarcastically said she was wrong ONLY after I challenged the opposing side to practice what you preach!

So besides everyone else, you have already answered your own question, by keep comming back without giving in or forgive, forget and move on.  You see we do NOT preach and we do NOT exclude ourselves from "WE" as THE people AND we happen to be IRANIANS.

Peace,

Loaded Response

Mr. MiNeum71

"The Reader" is excellent for many reasons not the least of which is Winslet's impeccable performance. 

I am not a sociologist or biologist.  I will offer you this. People are more alike than different. Case in point males and females. All chromosomes excpet one are exactly the same and that very one differentiates the gender.  Cause and effect may be 'anticipiated' by experts in the field who have a motive - case in point Churchill.  That was a brilliant mind which failed pretty much every exam in high school! But, he had a knack for 'reading' people and seeing where things were going and he was elected to run a country for many years and in the process redrew the map of Europe.  A leader - a thinker - a feeler. 

Everyone can see the solutions to a puzzle AFTER it has been solved but the trick is to see it beforehand. That comes from intelligence, ancestorial memory, a diverse grasp of human behavior etc etc. 

I have not met any vah-shee or bee-savad people who have not had 'some' redeeming feature.  Every culture has them, every country houses them and it is, one hopes, the objective of every democratically elected governement to contain that portion of the population, educate it, feed it, clothe it and improve it.  Every country right now is in the process of doing that and in each case it is a 'work in progress'.  Therre are perhaps a couple of exceptions out there - Sweden? Norway. But I tell you sir I have seen vahshees in Switzerland and I have seen tame people in Thailand - so from my view point it is not so easy to label a particular 'culture' or 'country' as such.

Lastly, I am studying Iranian culture - in my spare time.  The jury is still out on that one.  Again, I am not a sociologist or anthropologist although I have taken a few courses in each in my youth.  It so appears that cultures go through a phase of atrophy as they age.  The Iranian culture is a very old one; older than European cultures and much much older than America.  It would not be fair, in my mind to compare its 'presentations' with that of Europe and America. You may as well compare the beauty of a grandmother to a toddler.

That's my take for the day. And yes, I may be wrong. :)

Dear "rosie is roxy is roshan"

My History teacher told us once, nations become paranoid when they lose wars. Iranians have lost lots of wars, and they are paranoid. If you see any connection, please let us know.

Dear "Flying Solo",

I read The Reader - I guess - 10-12 years ago, and I´m looking forward seeing Kate Winslet this weekend ;)

Connecting past and future is very difficult. Just imagine how complicated one person can be, then imagine how complicated Millions of people can be, and now imagine how many interactions happen between these people every day. It´s really difficult to associate cause and effect of social evolution.

So it simply is true, it IS always easier to solve a puzzle when it is completed, but culture, personality and knowledge are crucial to the ability of solving a puzzle. You mentioned guilt and regret, the one should be noticed, the other should be felt. Do you think that Vah-shee-ha and Bee-savad-ha can do them?

I´m intereseted in something else: How could the Iranian culture turn into this horrible and nasty one? Or: How could Iranians fall for the illusion, that they would have such a great culture?

P.S. I enjoy your articles and comments.

Dear "TheMrs",

Truely a pity; this is, what "Flying Solo" wrote yesterday: "What is unique to Iranian discussions is, when the debaters arrive at a plateau, they proceed to have what I call a 'face-off'. They turn an intellectual argument into a 'personal' one as if they bear a vendetta. So they go for below the belt attacks. That's unfortunate. It is possible to argue and not get personal and, in the process, maintain credibility."

You are trying to convince us that "this sort of thing is not culturally defined", and then you do Iranee-bazee with your "But you're the one with the phd right??".

I respect your experience, but only my knowledge is important to me. But I don´t feel like holding a typical Mickey Mouse discussion about having a point about proven facts. What´s your next statement: "Shadow is warmer that sunshine because of my experience?" No, this doesn´t work, facts are facts, and social evolution can be measured and corroborated scientifically.

And: There ARE better and worse cultures. Good cultures take care of their women, minorities, criminals and animals.

Iranian culture? Iranian women count the half and are abused, Bahai´s are harassed, death penalty is a daily routine, donkeys (1) are maltreaded and dogs (1, 2, 3) are killed.

My conclusion: The Iranian culture is bullshit.

Dear "Mohamad Purqurian",

You write: "The problem is most people are preoccupied with their own environment, and do not see the whole picture." Yeah, this is true, but this still doesn´t answer the question, how this comes. Being preoccupied with the own environement is also a matter of cultural knowledge.

You asked: "BTW, did anyone admit to be wrong?  I mean seriously, honestly, and directly NOT just based on one of these three or any other characteristics." - Dear "Mohamad Purqurian": Everyday.

Flying Solo (1) and Persian Westender (2)

(1) I did not challenge you, it was just a reminder, but the pleasure is selfishly mine.  I also quoted an unbiased comment of yours (for our group) in a subject related to International Women's Day.  So I thank you for your intellectual contribution.

(2) have you ever thought about the meaning of "we" in self criticism?  It is yet another selfish discovery in human behavior! 

Since I have read some of your works, and I do not think of you as  a preacher, I take the liberty to explain.  For a preacher using "we" for  self criticism, it simply means ONLY you!  But for a practitioner, there is no need to translate the word!

I just wanted to clarify it for that portion of your fine comment because not everyone is a practitioner.

Peace,

Past and Future

Mr. MiNeum71

I am afraid I am a bit lost on your comment to me.  Past and future are related but only in hindsight can they be connected as cause and effect?  How about other revolutions? How many years did it take those nations to regain their balance? Let's not be too hasty.

It is always easier to solve a puzzle when it is completed isn't it?

Having said that I take your point on the Austrian experience. I have learnt a thing or two by reading about the German 'guilt'.  Did you see 'The Reader'.  A glimpse to what 'regret' and 'atonement' could look like - on a personal level of course.  Hindsight again.  Who'd have thunk?!

Thank you

Mr. Purqurian

I am being challenged and I like it. Perhaps I was generalizing, and you called me on it. Thank you. 

I am learning a lot about Iranians right now.  For the first time in my life I am conversing with Iranian men at an intellectual and emotional level and I am extremely and pleasantly surprised. I will admit sir - I was prejudiced and wrongly so.  So I thank you for calling me on my 'faux pas'.  

.

.

Mineum

Listen, just because I say don't bash Iranian culture doesn't mean I want to boast about 2500 years ago and pretend we don't have problems. But I'm saying, a lot of these issues are in every culture but manifest themselves differently. But you're the one with the phd right??

Peace Out

Every single culture has certain salient traits

of psyche, behavior, character temperament, etc. due to factors which are genetic, environmental (and these two influence each other in tandem over hundreds of thousands of years) and historical, both in distant and recent history and PRESENT history. He salient traits It exist in varyng proportion in each individual who obviously also has their own make-up, but you will see in each culture that the majoirty share certain of these traits to substantial degree while other display less of them and only a small minority don't display them at all.

So for example in the case of not being able to admit you are wrong (which in my opinon is often a defense mechanism used to cope with underlying fear, in other cases with anger) you will find cultures where very few people display this trait. It is simply not dominant within the culture.

In my experience traveling and teaching foreigners for a decade the people I have met whose cultures rarely displayed this trait have been foremost Senegalese Indians, Bagla Deshis, many (by no means all)Latin American cultures and Caribbean islanders. They are simply not all that concerned with defending themselves about being right and find it very easy to either say I'm sorry (Indians, Bagla Deshis) within Europe the Irish--or just laugh things off like why be angry or even apologize it's all in the game (Caribbeans many Latino cultures--And within Europe the southern Italians and southern Spaniards.

On the other extreme there are cultures where people are far too willing to admit they are wrong, especially to authority figures and within public space, and to apologize profusely, and to feel there is something wrong with them for having voiced their opinon if it's criticized, and many of them are East Asians and these are sometimes called "shame-based cultures" which carry their own particular set of very serious problems especially for adapting to the West.

I'll leave it to you to decide where different Iranian, American, Northern and Eastern European, Arabic, other African and other cultures may fall in the spectrum but anyone who is going to say that cultures do not display in general certain character traits and that character does not differ between Eskimos and Tahitians essentially, or that a heightened willingness or reluctance to apologize is not a character trait is....

right. I was wrong I'm sorry

Dear "TheMrs" (1), Dear "Flying Solo" (2)

(1) "This sort not culturally defined, but self esteem a natural problem?" - Sorry, this is a slightly contradictory. And we ar NOT "willing to label ourselves with this sort of negative thing", we are honest. Should I say: "Iranian culture is so great because 2500 years ago there was that someone?" only because to show that I have self-esteem? Then I would be the same silly guy whom this author tried to give us an understanding of. And nobody said that the term "The Iranians" would implicate every single Iranian. Besides: I did a PhD in Sociology, to say an entire culture is geared to preserve attitudes about being late, being dishonest, arguing and so on is not only not unrealistic, that´s a fact. This is called social inheritance.

(2) Future needs past: Dealing with the past is a very difficult subject. Some cultures love to be glued to the past, some cultures don´t mind it. If Iranians had dwelled on the Mossadegh and those years comprehensively and honestly, then the 1979 revolution would not have happened (maybe ;).

But future also needs future. We Austrians for example had the
problem of dealing with the past: After the denazification we had the
struggle to come to terms with the past, and as you can imagine it
wasn´t that easy. But the first step of was to bringt about a
concilation, and this first successful step was admitting "Austria´s
moral responsibility, because many Austrians welcomed the Anschluss,
supported the Nazi-regime and helped it to function" and asking "for
forgiveness of those who survived and forgiveness of the relatives of
the victims" (Vranitzky, Austrian chancellor, 1993). That was very important for the society.

If Iranians could learn from the past, then reviewing the past could make sense. But you´re right, I don´t see this also. The keywords are: studying, analyzing, resolving. Iranians should move on.

The Mrs

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my comments.  I will have to think about your response.  There are some good points there.