I’m Wrong, You’re Right, Alright?

Many times I have come across people who simply want to prove that they are right

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I’m Wrong, You’re Right, Alright?
by hossein.hosseini
08-Mar-2009
 

Over 30 years ago in Tehran, I worked with an American who was a native of Virginia and had spent most of his life in the Middle East working on engineering projects. He had lived and worked in such countries as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and many Persian Gulf States. We used to discuss many topics from life in America to historical sites in Iran, and of course politics. He showed a great deal of interest in Iran and the people of Middle East. I asked him after spending so many years in Iran and the region, what he thought was the biggest problem facing the people? His answer amazed me to this date. He said “there would be peace, democracy, and progress in this part of the world when people learn to use three phrases.” When asked what those phrases are, he said “I am wrong, you are right and I am sorry.” Stubbornness, he felt, was the biggest issue facing the people of those nations.

Today when I look back, I realize that his advice ever so simple is probably the hardest thing for some people, especially my generation, to accept and practice. Let’s be honest here, I can think of a very strange thing in many of us that makes me question our whole self-image. Have you ever asked how other people think about you? You might realize as I did that there is a huge difference between our self-image and our family and friend's idea of us. Many of us, me included, always think we are right. Why is it that any time there is a difference, our natural inclination is to assume that we are right and others are wrong? I can only speak for myself that even though I attempt to be (or at least look) humble and open about the very distinct possibility (and often probability) of my ignorance or error, deep down inside I generally think I'm right and others are wrong.

For many Iranians of my generation the hardest thing of all is to be willing to accept that others are right and we are wrong. Some of us Iranians are very hard to convince in any subject as it's beneath our dignity just to agree in something without putting a fight or at least get something in exchange. I can give many examples; just take a look at our recent political history. Some are still debating to find persons or groups to blame for the fall of Mosadegh, Shah, and the causes of the 1979 Revolution. It is every body’s fault except me. The so called ‘opposition’ abroad is so divided even within the same group, philosophy and system. Take a look at Monarchists, Nationalists, Reformers, Conservatives, etc. and you will see plenty of “I am only right” mentality.

In our community gatherings here in Orange County, many times I have come across people who simply want to prove that they are right and anything else doesn’t matter. I recall one time when I was helping at a non-profit event this gentleman we call Ali, argued passionately about how he thought the money being raised for the event will not help the non-profit but will benefit some organizers. After explaining all the details and facts, he was still not convinced, so I simply said “you know Ali, you are right”. Guess what? He spent another 20 minutes arguing with me on why I thought he was right!! So you see, even when you let them win, some still want to argue.

I have tried in many ways to understand the root cause of this phenomenon in our community. Is it pride? Is it fear? Is it our history, culture, up-bringing or is it that sometimes we just don't like what others are saying and we don't want it to be true. Rather silly to reject truth because we don't like it, but we still do. I think it is a combination of all, plus the fact that at least my generation has come from a closed, dictatorship society where ‘freedom of expression’ did not and still does not exist. True, we live in democracy now, but if you look deep down inside, you will see that we still carry some of that dictatorship mentality within us.

How do we stop this? How do we remain open to truth, no matter what it is or where it comes from? Well, for starters if we cling to this desire for our ideals to be true, perhaps we just need to find something else to cling to - or someone else. Perhaps our beliefs and ideals are becoming our idols and we are so attached to them that we cannot sacrifice them for truth. Far too often, at home, at work, at community meetings, it becomes all about me. My way is the only true way, and nobody else's way comes even close. In order to make our community successful in the long run, we should make good use of our diversity of thoughts, beliefs and ideas. We should seek a middle ground between thoughts and opinions while respecting all. Most of all we have to stay away from this "my way or the highway" mentality.

Fortunately the new generation of Iranian-Americans, our sons and daughters, do not have this problem. They are taught and raised in a society that differing ‘points of views’, and open and honest debates are encouraged and respected. For the rest of us, whenever you see yourself in the middle of a hot discussion, let’s remember these three phrases: I’m Wrong, You’re Right, Alright? Happy Norooz 2009!

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Anonymous Observer

The Mrs

by Anonymous Observer on

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my comments.  I will have to think about your response.  There are some good points there.


Anonymous Observer

double post

by Anonymous Observer on

double post


Mohamad.Purqurian

Fresh Take

by Mohamad.Purqurian on

Dear Flying Solo, I appreciate your input, but again it is generalization and since you also differentiate between Fact and truth, I think we should be mindful NOT to confuse the two:

I thought I rested my case when no one supporting the author admitted to be wrong AND I kept admitting the fact except pointing out its ubiquity and NOT just Iranians.

Furthermore, the author comes back and posts two emails that are both supporting his article.  I do NOT intend to imply he lies, but he certainly does NOT practice what he preaches.  He does NOT seem to give in NOR anyone else who has supported his opinion or preached us to forgive did so.

You may say, oh yeah we are all Iranians.  Aren't we?  Then again, we are all people NOT just Iranians.  I have already cited some examples on the issue, but there are also many good examples for both ordinary Iranians who do not give up friendship for a different opinion AND NON-Iranians who DO give up friendship for a different opinion whether social, political, religious or else.

One more thing.  some readers post a comment claiming they have NOT read the whole thread.  I appreciate the honesty, but it is simple.  It is about singling out a particular nationality for a human attribute, trait, character, etc. and demonizing it.  I respect anyone's disagreement, but it is wrong by any civilized standard.  I may also be wrong, but apply a litmus test on an individual NOT a whole NATION.

I would certainly rest my case now.

Peace,


persian westender

I should agree that one

by persian westender on

I should agree that one important and natural implication for these kinds of self-criticizing approach is that “we are bad…others are good”; especially when we are compared with other nationalities and cultures- in this case western ones. That may indirectly convey the message that we have to follow what they have set as good or bad and it could be case for conclusion on lack of national self-esteem. may be it would be better if we critisize ourselves not in comparative context. however, with the same token we, as a nation have a lot of cultural characteristics which others might not have and envy to have. Just make a quick review of impressions of tourists whom recently have visited Iran. They are amazed by hospitality, friendliness, and warm attitudes of Iranians. Its not matter of 'we are better and they are worse'. Its only the matter of “DIFFERENCE”. That necessarily does not make us superior to them , as many of their cultural characteristics do not give them credits. Having said that, there are some ‘characteristics’ which when it comes to free expression of ideas and tolerance we might having a little problem with. Again, this should not be defined as a deficit and I agree that yet there should be evidence-based research for particular behaviuors and attitudes. But, let’s not forget, we (throughout different cohorts) have been affected by historical events in our country. That, in addition to socio-geopolitical situation of Iran may have influenced our general attitudes and have differentiated us from others. All I'm saying is that being conscious about what could have influenced the formation of these attitudes and behaviours is beneficial.

 


TheMrs

Anonymous Observers

by TheMrs on

“passing the buck”

I read today that 1 in 50 American children are homeless. Have you not read about personal debt in American households? Teenage pregnancies? Just look for irresponsibility in non Iranians and trust me you’ll see a lot. But it’s not a competition. So why label ourselves? As far as I can tell, most Iranians I know go to school and are chained to desks. They do what they can for their families back home, pay their taxes and their bills. On the political spectrum, well, there is no denying that foreign powers have used and abused us. It doesn’t mean we don’t take responsibility for our own problems. We blame ourselves for everything anyway. Just look at your own comments.

 

“that’s why we’re not responsible for the revolution”

This is a gross exaggeration. I’ve never met an Iranian who thought Iranians had absolutely nothing to do with the revolution. Most discuss the role of other countries as a large part of the political landscape in 1979. And this is very legitimate.

 

“We never let go of the past”

What past specifically are we talking about? On a personal level, many people are capable of forgiving and forgetting and others are not. We have no statistics about this. Non Iranians suffer from all sorts of emotional problems too. How is this Iranian related?

Outside of personal relationships, do non Iranians let go of the past? Americans still want the right to bear arms because of their colonial past, talk about not letting go of the past AND being paranoid.

So the Kenyan ambassador is being a politician on a late night show and that’s a cultural observation? Africa is dying over ancient tribal rivalries!!! Not to mention they rely on foreign aid all the time. Their leaders are crooks and murderers and have all sorts of shady political affiliations with Western countries. Eastern Europe has ancient ethnic rivalries. In America, the racial divide is left for generation after generation, neighborhood after neighborhood who live through the consequences of slavery.

 

Of course you know the best defence for people who bash Iranians is that “who cares about other people, I’m just talking about my own culture”. Alright then, you must be right and I’m wrong.

 

“Crying over the whole Mossadegh thing”

60 years ago is not a long time ago. Americans still talk about Pearl Harbor, Vietnam, the cold war and so on. South Africans haven’t forgotten Apartheid. Europe? I don’t think it was that long ago that Eastern Europe was ready to rip each other off the face of the earth.

As far as countries at war who are now friends, it’s just about political alliances. Iran has had political allies and will continue to gain and lose them. Just like any other country. Don’t look at one snap shot in time!

Yes we should move on. But please stop Iranian bashing while you move on. Most of this stuff is just a matter of perspective. Seeing a negative in yourself because it stares at you in the face but not thinking out of the box to see it in others.

I like this article, it's a good thing to talk about this stuff.


Anonymous Observer

Flying Solo

by Anonymous Observer on

I don’t think that there’s much of an “unresolved” issue when it comes to Mossadegh.  He was democratically elected.  The U.S did not like it.  The CIA engineered a coup, brought the Shah back and removed Mossadegh from power.  The Iranian people were right, and the U.S. was wrong.  That’s about it.  We should now forget and forgive and move on.  Other nations have done much worst things to one another and have forgotten about it and moved on to forge long lasting and mutually beneficial relationships and alliances.  We should do the same.

 I think that our dwelling on the Mossadegh issue has more to do with our enthusiasm to blame others for our problems and our desire not to take responsibility for our actions that anything else.  For instance, the whole Mossadegh thing is something that Iranians constantly use to justify the 1979 Revolution regardless of its unintended and disastrous results.  It has much more to do with our personalities than the actual issue.


Flying Solo

Fresh Take

by Flying Solo on

Mrs.

Let me offer this as well. FACT and Truth are not always the same. 

I agree with you that Iranians tend to be analytical and I believe it stems from the history of 'needing' to 'read between the lines'.  Culture is an extension of the history, so in some sense it appears to be an Iranian trait.  Other 'nationalities' argue and not always politely.  It has been my experience though that Iranians are willing to give up friendships with people who may have a different opinion to them. I have not seen this among other nationalities. Perhaps I need to explore this further.  I know that I cut a lot more slack when 'arguing' with an Iranian. I fear to 'hurt' them whereas with a non-Iranian and in particular a westerner I tend to be much more vocal about my opinions. 

Nobody argues about facts anyway as they either are or are not refutable.

p/s: My maternal side of the family is from Esfahan. There are some definitive character traits - frugality being one of them. They are also known to be exceptionally generous to their families.  That is my truth but is it FACT? 

I enjoy your bold posts.


Flying Solo

.

by Flying Solo on

.

 


Anonymous Observer

We Have to Learn to Forgive, Forget and Move On

by Anonymous Observer on

First, I agree with Rosie that there’s quite a bit of paranoia in our culture.  That is why we try to look for culprits to blame for our problems when one does not exist. 

The second problem (and just like Rosie, I haven’t had the time to read the rest of the comments and I don’t know if someone else has mentioned this) is refusal to take responsibility for our action.  The proverbial “buck” never stops with any of us.  It always passes to others.  That’s why we’re not responsible for the revolution (it was the British, U.S., Russia, China, Arabs, Israel…who knows, may be even the Bahamas), the war, etc.  

The third thing is that we never let go of the past, forgive and move on.  I was watching an episode of the Daily Show recently when one of the “correspondents”, who is British, interviewed the Kenyan ambassador to the UN.  He was trying to provoke him by reminding him of the British colonization of Kenya, and the ambassador simply said “that was in the past”, and it does not matter now.  How refreshing!!!  This is a country that was colonized by a foreign country, and its citizens were actually enslaved by it, and he says that it was the past and that it is all forgotten.  Here’s a link to that segment that I found:

 //theleoafricanus.com/2009/02/11/the-daily-show-does-kenya/  

In contrast, look at us.  We are still crying over the whole Mossadegh thing that happened sixty years ago.  We are still demanding that the U.S apologize for it!!!!  Whatever that issue was, it was sixty years ago.  Almost everyone on the U.S. end that was involved in it is dead.  Look at Europe for God’s sake.  Germany and France and England almost wiped each other off the face of the earth as recently as sixty years ago.  But they are essentially one country now.  And what about the U.S. and Japan?  The U.S. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, and they are friends and allies now.  And last but not the least, how about Vietnam?  The U.S. killed more than a million Vietnamese just thirty years ago, and they are now friends. 

 Let’s learn to move on people.  Forgive and forget.  That’s the way to move forward.


Mohamad.Purqurian

Thanx TheMrs, Flying, Rosie, NiMuem, et al.

by Mohamad.Purqurian on

Especially to TheMrs for effectively conveying her point except, of course, for some minor confusions between facts and opinions, i.e. looking at your hands is a function of mathematic certainty not opinion.  So it can be verified, but if you say your hands are beautiful (which I am sure they are!) it is an opinion.

There is a classic case in point in sociology.  To make it short, it says when you wait for a bus at the station, you see all buses come and go, but NOT yours.  You get frustrated, and start thinking you are simply out of luck, but the fact of the matter is once your bus gets to the station, you just get on the bus and do not see it was ahead of other ones that follow it!

The problem is most people are preoccupied with their own environment, and do not see the whole picture.  Besides TheMrs, Rosie also noticed another ethnicity for paranoia because she experienced the communication.  You start exercising some observation and you will see it in virtually any ethnicity AND they all think it is unique ONLY to them.

BTW, did anyone admit to be wrong?  I mean seriously, honestly, and directly NOT just based on one of these three or any other characteristics.

I certainly enjoyed this discussion without having to subjugate my opinion.  I hope you did to.

Peace

 


default

Compromise is missing

by hossein.hosseini on

As the author of the lead piece, I wanted to thank you all for your  comments. Just a point of clarification: I am only referring to some Iranians of my generation (50+). I am sure there are many logical people in our community.  The whole point here was whether or not this phenomenon is more prevalent in Iranian and Middle Eastern communities.  I do believe it is.  I think the concept of ‘compromise’ is missing in that part of the world.  It is a ‘winner takes all’ attitude. For example in U.S. if a Candidate wins by say 60%, he still tries to satisfy the need of the other 40% who did not vote for him.  This is done through compromises in bills/legislations, etc. In the Middle East, once you win (by force or through semi-legit election), your first task is to crush the opposition.

I also received a few emails with some interesting thoughts that I would like to share here:

“Hossein jaan, good piece, and as to why we act such...this is  my thought  :)
 I think we are the Lion of Metrogoldyn Meyer that gives three roars!! As soon as we are born, once we are slapped on the bottom to sound our existence we roar out three words, with hands on our hips of course saying " I Know Everything"!  :) Thus the road to all else is blocked & from birth we are the mighty know it all!”

“Nicely written Hossein jaan, this is a social disease called "Narcissistic Culture" and usually the types of nations who are contaminated with it are two types. the first ones are the ones who have had glorious past but not so much in the present time, countries like Italy, Greece, and some with glorious past but with centuries of oppression and suppression, countries like Iran and Egypt are samples of the second group. by the way who is Ali ?” 


TheMrs

In my experience, this sort

by TheMrs on

In my experience, this sort of thing is not culturally defined. But we seem to have a national self esteem problem. So we are willing to label ourselves with this sort of negative thing. Anytime someone starts with "Iroonia flan bisar", it's usually not based on statistics or any hard FACT. It's usually a ghor ghor about how they view the cultural group they were born into. And it's only a matter of perception. I think Iranians are very analytical people and generally well education in and out of school. So you can't just get them to agree with you the way a 2 year old would. You have to talk and analyze and discuss and convince. Does it have hassles, sure it does. But the burden of that hassle shouldn't be more valuable than inetllect that comes with it.

If someone tells me 2+2 is 5 I can just ignore them because that's simply inaccurate. I can also count on my fingers. But if someone says Iranians are always late, that's an opinon completely dependent on that person's perception of his experiences which can be tainted with a negative view to his own culture.

Everything is not relative. I can't look at my hands and say man i've got 3 hands today. It would be completely false. And so my "opnion" would be wrong. But to say that just because I'm Iranian, I tend to view things unrealistically and then sit and argue about them, specifically to prove I'm write, is plain racist BS. :) But I could be wrong

To say an entire culture is geared to preserve attitudes about being late, being dishonest, arguing and so on is unrealistic. The next question would then be, what about ethnicities in these larger cultural groups? Can we say that Shomalis are generally bi namoos? Esfehanis are stingy? And hey, let's throw a westerner in the mix too. An old friend of mine who spend 30 years in Abadan thinks jonoobi people should stop obsessing over ray ban and work on their oil...you see where this goes?

This stuff has nothing to do with culture. I'm willing to compromise and say that sometimes a person is told they are culturally pre disposed to being late and that could sub consiously make them be late all the time.

Nice topic

 


rosie is roxy is roshan

I just want to say something--paranoia

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

I don't have time to read up the thread so I don't know if anyone else said this before AS A NON-IRANIAN  but people here in the political discussions usually don't want to give a single inch. One specific result for me is that when I try to understand both sides I get told that I am "disappointing" someone like they expected me to tow some kind of party line, and the more critical the situation the more important the worse it gets. So during the Gaza conflict I was frequently asked what "side" I'm on by people who knew perfectly well my fundamental political stance was the same as theirs (or should've).. Or I was TOLD I was on the other side because I didn't say every single thng they would've liked to hear. It i did NOT happen INfrequently. 

In reality this is a very superficial manifestation of the real problem. The underlying problem is PARANOIA. Paranoia is the national psychological illness of the Iranian people (as it is for the European Jews so I know from whence I speak).  When you are paranoid you think everyone's out to get you so naturally if someone "close" to you disagrees with you on almost anything they must be out to get you too they're not part of "us"" they''re part of the nefarious "them". And of course no compromise with "them" is impossible because..then they "got" you. Paranoia thus causes a hyper-defensive  behavior which winds up being on the offense instead. You can see its ugliest manifestatoin in Israel today but god forbid most Iranians would notice THAT!

It probably started with the Mongols but it gets pretty tired here.

Five years ago when I first got interested in Iran I met a moderate leftist about 50. He told me the problem with different Iranian political factions is no one is ever willing to give an inch.  Interestingy a left-wing activist friend who travels between New York Israel and Palestine  and whose activism is for the Palestinians told me the same thing at about the same time: NO ONE WANTS TO GIVE AN INCH.

But here for many on the Left Hamas is perfect--or if it isn't ssssssssssssshhh...or "they'll" hear you...


MiNeum71

Dear "Mohamad Purqurian",

by MiNeum71 on

the lack of communication abilities IS our nation´s problem (of course not every single Iranian´s). There is something called social inheritance; how and from whom can Iranians learn civilized communication?

As "Flying Solo" wrote, Iranians love personal arguing if they don´t know how to "win" the conversation. This is very unique.

Not everything is a matter of view, sometimes there exists a "right" and a "wrong". And therefore it´s important to study realities. If you want to learn something you must accept to be wrong and be ready to fail sometimes.

"Have you ever seen an Iranian arguing an issue with a non-Iranian?" - Yes I did, and the Non-Iranian left because he had enough of this Iranian´s self-opininiated way of argue.

Also honesty is an Iranian problem, but that's another day and another cup of coffee ...

 


Flying Solo

.

by Flying Solo on

.

 


Mohamad.Purqurian

Persian Westender

by Mohamad.Purqurian on

There is no problem because while everything is proven to be relative and, therefore, "everyone can be right", the opposite is also true!  I mean everyone can be wrong!  So it is not "individualistic" and the exchange of ideas will exponentially increase.  In fact, this is what an open society needs.

I strongly recommend you read my article.  You can google search the following:

محمد پورقوريان پديده نظر

I guess I have to go back to work now! 

Peace,


persian westender

Yes,but there is

by persian westender on

Yes,but there is one problem here: If we really come to this realization that everything is relative and everyone can be right, then no one would argue to prove his/her case. I mean this is so 'individualistic', and it limits the exchange of ideas on the ground that "well, why should I bother? everyone is right..."

 


Mohamad.Purqurian

TheMrs

by Mohamad.Purqurian on

TheMrs

by Mohamad Purqurian on Mon Mar 09, 2009 08:00 PM PDT

I repost this because it was deleted, I guess because of a link!

Good point, but remember an opinion is NOT a fact, and it is not verifiable.  You and I may argue for ever to prove our opinions, but facts are different.  They are historical, meaning something happened in the past.  So it can be proved, but our opinions about it may NOT change even when the fundamental facts are proved to be different. I wrote an article about it long time ago.  It is in farsi and here is the link:

Go to laal . org and in Persian section click on Nazar.

So the concept of "right and wrong" is qualitative and dependent upon many different factors, including different value systems.  Something right in one set of circumstances may well be wrong in another situation and no one can reasonably prove either one to be right or wrong. That is why we "respect" a different opinion, but do not necessarily accept it.  IMHO, Iranians developed "taarofing" that is also applicable in civilized handling of a different opinion. Peace


Flying Solo

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by Flying Solo on

.


persian westender

The Mrs

by persian westender on

Salam,

Well, the premise here is that it has been already ‘proven’ that I am wrong, like evidence is against me and if I’m Iranian I am not going to admit it easily (in here it is contrasted with westerners).   I assumed that if this statement is correct, there could be a number of reasons for that, and I tried to make it related to our historic or cultural background.

 


TheMrs

Not that it's all about me but...

by TheMrs on

But what if I AM right and YOU are wrong? That happens sometimes and I don't see what I need to compromise my point in the benefit of some abstract cultural good.

But of course, if I'm wrong, I can admit it. And I listen to facts.


Mohamad.Purqurian

3rd Person Plural!

by Mohamad.Purqurian on

Let me first express my apology for misspelling MiNeum71.   

You said: 

"The other side of the coin is that we use "sevom shakhs jam"  to remove social responsibility from our own shoulders and put the blame on everybody else."

Obviously you are right, seriously NO kidding!  Just to make it even more interesting, it is also human nature, and NOT a nationality attribute.  For example, when was the last time a political party did NOT blame the other party for all the problems?  When was the last time a president did not shift all the blame to his/her predecessor claiming he/she had inheritted the mess?  The list goes on and on in every single corner of planet earth.

Also your first litmus test works well for all religious sites all over the world, including our own.  pigeons land on the shrine ground because religious people tend to obey certain principles.  That is different for intellectual discourse even between religious authorities.

Peace,


Mohamad.Purqurian

3rd Person Plural!

by Mohamad.Purqurian on

Let me first express my apology for misspelling MiNeum71.   

You said: 

"The other side of the coin is that we use "sevom shakhs jam"  to remove social responsibility from our own shoulders and put the blame on everybody else."

Obviously you are right, seriously NO kidding!  Just to make it even more interesting, it is also human nature, and NOT a nationality attribute.  For example, when was the last time a political party did NOT blame the other party for all the problems?  When was the last time a president did not shift all the blame to his/her predecessor claiming he/she had inheritted the mess?  The list goes on and on in every single corner of planet earth.

Also your first litmus test works well for all religious sites all over the world, including our own.  pigeons land on the shrine ground because religious people tend to obey certain principles.  That is different for intellectual discourse even between religious authorities.

Peace,


Shahriar

Third Person Plural!

by Shahriar on

The other side of the coin is that we use "sevom shakhs jam"  to remove social responsibility from our own shoulders and put the blame on everybody else. For example: "THEY have ruined the country" or "THEY don't observe the rules" or the like.

And similar to MiNeum71 's list, I have my own "litmus test" for whichever country I may visit, to see how civilized a place I've stepped into:

  1. Do pigeons land on the ground? Are animals relaxed or tense?
  2. Do people line up? Queue is one of biggest achievements of humanity.
  3. Are there double standards in treatment of people (children vs. adults, poor vs. rich, women vs. men, etc.)

And believe it or not, this litmus test results are ready about fifteen minutes after you land in a new country.

By the way, don't argue with me on any of the above points since I know I am right and everyboyd else is wrong (just kidding!).


Mohamad.Purqurian

Dear BK and MeNeum71

by Mohamad.Purqurian on

Our communication is a proof that we can communicate, and we can do it well even if with a spice of humor or sarcasm.  Although, I differ with you in "self-improvement" because I do not put "belittling" and "self acknowledgement" into the same category. 

I certainly appreciate your honest experience, and believe me I also share many of the same.  But I was fortunate enough to study human behavior and work with other nationalities on complex issues like perceived and real socio-political injustice, etc.  So while I do not deny the fact, I cannot single it out against Iranians because I am not prejudice.

Let me point out something.  Have you ever seen an Iranian arguing an issue with a non-Iranian?  If you have, chances are, it was short, polite, to the point, civilized, and more importantly NOT equal!  It is always at two levels either a sense of superiority or inferiority depending on the non-Iranian socio-political status or the Iranian's command on the language in respect to the other side!

That is also a function of human nature AND not a particular nationality.  The point to be made is the fact that in complex issues, i.e. common socio-political problems people tend to naturally exercise their equal status!  Unless, of course, when there is a cultural or language barrier to make one inferior to the other.

Look at children, just because a typical immigrant parent does not know the language as good as the kid does, children automatically assume their parents do not know anything!  And the poor parent loses the required authority to help the kid!  Now, As much as kids are equal AND argue with each other irrespective of how they resolve their differences, parents are equal AND do the same at their own levels.

Examples are abundant like the ones I already mentioned for political debates between different parties, talk shows, etc.  All I am trying to convey is the fact that we are like any other nationality.  While we certainly have exceptions (again like other people do) when we argue a point between ourselves in equal terms, it will not be subdued unless the other side is superior enough to acknowledge our point and directly accept it, challenge it, or reject it. 

Otherwise, it would be futile to keep pressing on for our own points, like it is the case in the Congress, AND, in fact, the whole purpose of the rule of majority is to close a never ending argument!

Peace


MiNeum71

Dear "bk",

by MiNeum71 on

I´m just repeating what I´ve already written somewhere else. There are four parameters which show how improved a society is:

1) Dealing with / treatment of women and minorities
2) Dealing with / treatment of prisoners
3) Dealing with / treatment of animals
4) Dealing with / treatment of road users

Open-mindedness, tolerance and respect towards the right of others to their opinion and beliefs are the pillars of an improved society.

 


MiNeum71

Dear "Mohamad Purqurian",

by MiNeum71 on

thanks for your lines, btw I don´t know what "zargari" talking means.

I´m prejudiced, bacause of my relatives (and many many Iranians I know). I don´t see or hear them often, and one of the reasons for this is the way they communicate. They have NEVER made a mistake, really NEVER, it was always someone else´s mistake, and it doesn´t matter what we´re talking about. My father is university professor, my mom is university graduate, so you may think they are able to talk, communicate, argue; but far out.

It´s also a matter of intelligence to accept an argument, and a matter of respect to apologize.

What are we going to gain by belittling ourselves as second class citizens of the world? Self-knowledge is the first step toward self-improvement.

 


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Mr. Purqurian

by BK (not verified) on

Believe me, if ever we happened to get into a debate and you ended up saying to me: "hey, you are right; I was wrong" you would NOT be insulting my intelligence, I assure you, hehe.

Seriously though, your point about many topics of debate not being black and white is well taken. I've always felt the challenge for people of differing views is not necessarily in deciding who is right and who is wrong, but how they are able to get on with each other despite their difference of opinion and, as you say, understand what the other side is saying (and I mean genuinely understand, instead of just paying superficial lip service to it) even if they still see things differently.


Mohamad.Purqurian

Dear MeNeum71

by Mohamad.Purqurian on

May I add to your point that hardly anything is black and white, and almost anything in human behavior is between the two.  Having said that, it is also a human nature AND not a nationality issue.  That is NOT to say Iranians are flawless.  In respect to our nationality, we have excelled on some issues, and failed on others, but that is not the point here.

Being right or wrong on an issue is NOT the point presented by this article, it is more about admitting it or giving credit to the other side of an argument whether right or wrong.  That is a function of communication because, IMHO, it is an insult to your opponent's intelligence if you just say "hey, you are right; I was wrong"

So, in communicating an argument, you want to make sure the other side understands your point.  However, in emperical world, the other side wants to do exacly the same.  Now, since both sides are preoccupied with their own points to get crossed, either side feels the other one simply does not understand his/her point. 

In reality, and most of the time, this assumption is simply wrong because they both understand each other quite well, it is the differencial concept of their view that is not communicated well or simply rejected.  All you need to do is just watch a political debate between let's say a republican and a democrat or just a social talk show to appreciate this reality.

Now, the problem with self criticism in articles like this one is the fact that we single out a problem as if it is just Iranians who have this problem.  Not only this is not true, but also it is misleading and counter productive.  I would have no problem with exploring tolerance for its virtues and shortcomings and even more importantly for its applications.  But what are we going to gain by belittling ourselves as second class citizens of the world where we share the same attributes with all other people?

BTW, two Iranian merchants "bazzaries" would also practice "talk is siver, silence is gold" AND if they really have to talk about it they would rather use a sign language or something like "zargari" talking, if you are familiar with the term.  In fact, Iranian merchants hardly ever argue on anything except for a well defined objective like bargaining the price! 

Peace


MiNeum71

Dear "Mohamad Purqurian" (1), Dear "gol-dust" (2)

by MiNeum71 on

I really don´t like to admit that, but (1) there is also something between black and white, and (2) it IS an Iranian problem.

(1) Asians don´t talk, they act "Talk is silver, silence is golden", employees enslave themselves as the young people do; but is the opposite of silence the right solution? Arabs are also Vah-Shee, but Europeans are different, they can also LISTEN to someone and REFLECT ON arguments (besides: Do you know any Persian word for convincing argument?)

(2) You wrote it yourself: "... lot of us Iranians listen to westerners as they are so smart, but they don't appreciate what a precious gym their own culture is": lack of confidence (Oghde´ee) and lack of education (Bee Savad). And be sure: NO "open-minded westerners are trying to learn from us", they ARE REALLY much too smart.

And thanks to "persian westender", "Anonymous," and "BK":
YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT.