Iranian of the Day

thanks to you all

Thanks for all of your comments

Voices of wisdom and compassion,

Mehrdadm, thanks for posting this enlightening conversation.

Darveesh

The Nobel committee members are very intelligent. However their motives are not the same as your or mine. The peace prize is a political move. Do you really think Barak Obama was a logical choice based on his actions? I voted for him and do not. Obama himself does not think it. 

Lets cut the BS and see the world true realistic eyes. All actions from UN to Nobel are based on various biases. If you want to see truth without bias go for pure math.

Anything else is biased by humanity. 

Alright brother Darveesh!

VPK.

'em Nobel committee is so stupid' , I tells ya'

them Nobel committee members are so stupid, they should come here and asked who should receive the prize.

Them swedes are so dumb, next year, here in this place.

Q: what are you talking about

1) You implied that because she has a Nobel Prize that entitles her to represent us. I took issue with it.

2) I have always said that the UN decisions about Iran are: biased; based on false information; politically motivated and yes "worthless". The difference is that they have guns and we need to somehow deal with it.

If you read my posts you will realize that I never took the US position on Iran as valid. You are mixing me up with other people. We may all oppose Islamism but we are not all the same. I am able to see hypocrisy in IRI and the West.

What is funny is how Islamists will refer to Western sources when it suits them. Then turn around and condemn them when it does not. For the record I say Western sources are ALWAYS biased, agreed. 

B.Y.O.B

Mr. K R  you welcome for the space any time BUT don't forget to bring your own booze.

In the begining I taught you and gavazn are the little vahabi  Jr. league till I saw some sarcastic and funny notes on your comments.   Maziar

Oh great VPK!

Actually, I never said a "swedish" panel "appointed" anything. I said, we can't agree that she represents Iranian aspirations. Many Iranians do believe it, but some here obviously don't. This is proof of what she herself is saying.

However, it's great to know that by your own standard the decisions reached by the 5 permenant members of the UN about what Iranians can or can't do are equally worthless.

Thank you DK

I hear you.  

Following on my own argument that, now that she can not go back, she must speak more explicitly.  I don't mean shouting death to IRI and Islam (she is a world figure and does not want to make any more enemies than she has to).  But, as you point out, this is a good time for her to admit her mistakes.  She was the first woman judge underthe Shah's regime which she ended up opposing. She must admit that IRI was wrong from the start, beginning with that liar khomeini.  She can start by accepting my avatar :)  Better yet, wear one on her lapel.

As you know, if we start with admitting mistakes, we should start with constitutional monarchists, and the Shah himself.  Many, including Reza Pahlavi and Empress Farah have done so, but many others say the same things they said the day before the revolution.  Like they never learned anything.

The republicans, or the National Front, has a lot to apologize for as well, going back to Mosaddegh's stubbornness.  But, they also took the country from the Shah in 1979 with their lofty talks, then didn't stand to fight and stop khomeini from taking it all.   

I, myself, am a constitutional Monarchist.  The reason I prefer constitutional monarchy is that, given the history of Iran, I believe the Shah would be a powerful symbol of national identity and continuity.  But, I also believe that the Shah mustn't rule in any way.  Shouldn't go anywhere near it.  Government must be democratic and secular.  

relax

just match her. That is all.

Match that west. Oh now it's

Match that west.

Oh now it's about the West. I should have known! 

She is my hero

a woman of true values and convictions. a woman of power and dignity.

Match that west.

pas-e-pardeh Jaan

I don't entirely disagree with much of your assessments regarding her work of "resistance" from within the system.

But well we saw the Result ... Her Exile !

Now she is tasting first hand what some of us have been going through for the past 30 years ...

Maybe it can now learn to stop preaching from her high horse when it comes to the exiled opposition.

Indeed if she is not a politician nor claims to be one can you explain to me why she took a political stance in regard to the exiled Opposition or opposing the Financing of Opposition Medias including VOA, Radio Farda, Radio Liberty as well as Human Rights Organizations  all of which were to rush to her rescue when she and her offices and secretaries were being bullied by the IRI thugs shortly before last year's protests ? I personally think I know the answer but you may wish to enlighten us ...

Secondly if again she is no Politician but merely a Lawyer why are so many pseudo Republicans hail her as fit for the Job of President in an Iranian Secular Republic ? All the more that she is not particularly the embodiement of a Secularist Intellectual.

In her memoires Iran an Awakening she precisely explains her nearly mystical attraction for religious faith and how she basically Fell in Love with God ...

Were She Christian and Not Muslim I suppose she would become a Nun ...

What amazes me amongst the Republican aka Jomhurykhah supporters is the level of contradiction in their approach to the very issue of the system of government they wish to establish in our homeland.

I respect their Choice, I simply don't share it and deplore their contradictions and shortsightedness.

To me it seems that the only genuine democrats with a clear vision for the future are Constitutionalists.

The Quentessential Constitutionalist having been the Late Shapour Bakhtiar whose intellectual and political legacy has survived his martyrdom:

Shapour Bakhtiar on Regime Change based on the Constitution of 1906:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNBFTWXz5_Q

A Message that the Crown Prince of Iran today is taking up the mantle where the late Bakhtiar Left it:

Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi message regarding the extradition of Bakhtiar's Assassin back to Iran

Reza Pahlavi's message on the Anniversary of the 1906 Constitutional Revolution in Iran:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFjjjGwEDkQ

Something ( i.e: Regime Change) that this honerable lady has staunchly Opposed to date including with the support and advice of the most notable Pro IRI intellectuals on Capitol Hill: Trita Parsi, Hamid Dabashi, or the dubious CASMII organizations etc who have only recently jumped on the Bandwagon of the Opposition to the IRI ...

All the more that when I speak of Constitutionalism I do not particularly mean that one has to be a Monarchist. Even if the roots of this movement were aimed Not at Toppling the Monarchy but domesticating it as the Europeans did in such countries as Great Britain prior to the French Revolution or other nations where the Monarchy is simply symbolic and where the monarch embodies the national unity and reigns but does not rule.

PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY: Mozaffaredin Shah Signs First Draft of the Constitution (1906)

However the very basis of the Constitutional Movement in IRan was inspired by the Enlightment Philosophers in Europe and the progressive ideas of the Rennaissance:

HISTORY FORUM: Nader Naderpour on Iran's Constitutional Revolution and European Rennaissance (1996)

From this point of View the Constitutional Movement encompasses Republican Ideals within a Royal Framework if you will.

One can dislike the idea but one cannot try and deny it's coherence or it's historical significance in shaping Iran's political landscape, dillemas and challenges for more than a 100 years which cannot be dismissed simply because of the events of 1953 or the revolution of 1979 for that matter ... however historically significant the last two events were and are in their own right.

But the problem with the IRI reformist Think Tank is that they are painstakingly and in my opinion quite Vainly overlooking a 100 years struggle for democracy in the name of an ideal which is at odds with the large and growing majority of Iranians including people of their own generation. 

HISTORY FORUM: Mashallah Ajoudani on Intellectuals and the Revolution

Mehdi Bazargan and the controversial legacy of Iran's Islamic intellectual movement

Their Efforts which in their own right are often genuinely sincere and even defended with courage and self sacrifice for instance in the case of Akbar Ganji which In my own modest way I defended in the past for his hunger strike:

Prisoner of Conscience: Akbar Ganji and Costa Gavras' Confession BY Darius KADIVAR

However by staunchly trying to hang on to this ideal of an "Islamic Democracy" or the historical legitimacy of the Islamic Revolution despite it's disastrous record ALL these Apologists are simply prolonging an ambiguous message not only to Iranians back home but also outside.

What They have ALL refused to do is What Krutchev did with Stalin. None of them truly dares reject the Ayatollah Khomeiny's Political legacy. At least certainly not the ones I mentioned above be it Hamid Dabashi, Mohsen Kadivar or even Akbar Ganji.

What I criticize Mrs. Ebadi and the above fellows with whom she hangs with at every opportunity of a joint Conference is that they have not done what Azar Nafisi brilliantly described in Fariba Amini's article Their "Examen de Conscience" as the French would say ... in otherwords to honestly take a critical look at their past not in an aim of self flagellation but to understand what went wrong ... or as Azar Nafisi points in the following paragraph: 

"I did not think that the Islamic regime or the Shah were the only forces responsible for what happened to us. I wanted to know what right did the rest of the society play in bringing about this revolution. I still think that different groups with different views should have an honest assessment of their past mistakes, not other people’s mistakes but their own. This is not about blaming ourselves or others, but in order to understand where we were in order to know where we are going."

The problem with Mrs Ebadi and Co. is that not only they do not know where they are ... They Hardly Know where they are going ...

But if it helps or comforts her conscience as well as that of her equally clueless fan club ... from that perspective She is no exception to the rule ...

GAUCHE CAVIAR: Ebrahim Golestan interviewed by Massoud Behnoud (BBC Persian)

Respectfully,

DK

Insha Allah

I bid you, and all good night, too. I also thank brother JJ for the space.

Yes Brother

We shall leave the divine promises from the Merciful Allah in Quran-(40-45) for another day.

I bid you goodnight and request you to never change (and request JJ not to delete my Free Speech).

Brother Gavazn

Praise to Allah, for brother Sargord did not make any comments on sister Shirin's bosoms, otherwise your follow-up reference comment could have gone into an X-rated murky zone.

God May Save Us All.

What else can I say? What else can I do?

Brother Khalifeh, some points you may need for future reference

Many Muslim women cut their hair in order to beautify themselves. What is the Islamic Law concerning this matter?

Are women allowed to shave their eyebrows?

No, they are not allowed to shave their eyebrows. The shaving of eyebrows and the painting of new ones, or shaving certain hair and leaving the eyebrows to look like two inverted crescents, is not allowed in Islam. In a narration, ?The Messenger of Allah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) cursed the women who plucked and those who were employed to pluck the eyebrows.? (Abu Dawud)

Some women wear wigs or hairpieces for beautification. It consists of using a plait of one woman?s hair or artificial hair and joining it to another woman?s hair with the object of making the woman?s hair appear very long and beautiful. Is this allowed?

This is not allowed. A narration says, ?Hazrat A?ishah (radi Allahu anha) reported that the Messenger of Allah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) cursed women who wore hair pieces and the women who aided in this practice.? (Bukhari) If a woman has short hair, she should not try to add false hair. If another lady asks her to help fix false hair on her head, she should refuse.

All praise be to Allah!

خلفای راشدین

LOL, you are becoming my favorite IC contributor. Please, more advice  ......  :)

Dear DK

Thank you for your reply:

1- people commenting here about her endorsement of "religious democracy" did not listen to this clip.  They are the type that are too too knowledgable to listen to anything for an hour before commenting;

 
2- When I first heard this interview, I said to myself, for sure, she is not planning to go back to Iran until regime change.  Which takes me back to her stradling both sides before her exile.  Shirin Ebadi, unlike us, worked within the system of the Islamic Republic.  Anybody who does that, can not categorically reject Islam or Islamic government.  The punishment is death.  So, they choose to veil their words in order to continue working within the system.  They believe this kind of work, marginal as it may be, is of greater value than moving outside Iran and shouting "Death to IRI". Now that it seems there is no return to IRI for her, she speaks openly; 

3- Her "vison"?  She has none.  If you study her works, she is a lawyer, not a politician.  She parses laws like a mathematician solves differential equations: methodically, deeply, and with precision.  She has a passion for law in a very academic sense.  When in Iran, her expertise was to use the laws of Islam, and the Islamic governemnt, their own constitution, to win cases.  In the process, she planted the seeds of division among IRI theologians and showed, to legal experts who were paying attention, that the IRI was hypocritical even when it came to their own unpopular laws. She held a legal mirror up to IRI, and showed their ugly image. Now, you may say this has no value. I thought it did.    

pas-e-pardeh well to begin with she wouldn't approve your Avatar

;0)

I DO ! ;0))

But on a more serious note. She has always been for a Religious Democracy be it until the last June elections.

That she has adapted her rhetoric since is commendable but what does that Say about her VISION ?

Does she or did she have any in the first place ? I very much doubt it as I have never paid too much credit to the Nobel Peace Prize which has been attributed to many undeserving recipients over the years ranging from a former Terrorist like Yasser Arafat to a Popular , charismatic and good hearted American President yet totally undeserving laureate to his own admission ...

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uU_mCNcKM

I wouldn't trust the Dalai Lama's political vision any more however respectable he is as a person and genuinely concerned by the Tibetan's cause for Freedom and independance.

An Akhound is an Akhound in the end of the day even if I share his views on Non Violent Resistance and that Bhuddism is more of a philosophy than purely a religious Dogma.

Great Men and Women can only be judged over their life times. History will say if they were deserving, or a step ahead of their own generation. Winston Churchill, De Gaulle Were Not Great or Seen Great at all times in their lifetimes. They had to EARN their Reputation and They DID Against ALL ODDS and Often Against the large Majority of the Public Opinion and Moral Majority of their Times.

I wish Mrs. Ebadi a long and happy life with far higher and greater achievements which I am sure she has the capacities to achieve them and for the good of her own people and that of Humanity at large.

But WHERE IS THE VISION ? One which is Not only Original but could serve as a BLUE PRINT for Change ? ...

I see None !

THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION !

Talk is Cheap Not Only for Obama, Shirin Ebadi or Reza Pahlavi but For All of Us United or Not ...

As Long as Iran is Not Free All these speaches ( which I still consider interesting and even important) remain theoratical and intellectually stimulating.

The Key however is how much of all this talk is practical and applicable to Reality.

May The Best Win for the Good of Iran and Iranians at Large in their struggle for democracy and human rights and the good of Humanity and World Peace in particular ...

My Humble Opinion, 

DK

Yesterday morning on my

Yesterday morning on my usual 'wake-up' local radio, there was a brief presentation of her book (I'm not sure the same as in this topic). The kind of one minute review and then you move to the next subject which is the nutritional value of carrot.

It seems that it's about a fictive (even to the reviewer, it sounded fictive) family with one communist member and one monarchist member etc... (supposedly a sample of society). The review was polite. But I had an uncanny feeling that the respect was directed to the Nobel prize not the person holding it.

Weren't you people even listening to Ebadi?

I am so proud of her.  She is a serious thinker and world figure who held her own, and much more in this audience. By the end, you could clearly see how impressed the dalai lama was with her.

When did she say "religious democracy"????

She said religious systems are unable to change with times, and that, by definition, can not listen to the will of the people.  and governments based on ideology will eventually turn to dictatorship. 

ps as a secular

person who has to live with ultraorthodox who dictate things in our lives and are gaining more and more mandates in parliament, abusing the democratic system, i should learn lessons of looking at the 'subtlety' of the hybrid called 'religious democracy'.

so the clarification (and the food for thought)are very instructive

thank you so much dk

you have made me, and i guess some others on this thread, much more knowledgable in the hard facts and the subtleties. i will read through all this carefully again.

things for external consumption are often simplified and filtered. people on the outside don't always have all the tools to properly interpret and contextualize disparate bits of information.

(this may be true of nobel committees as well -- i'm thinking of other cases)

this is another one of the reasons i started surfing ic.

so glad you took the trouble to give such a detailed reaction.

Food For Thought: Secularist Vs Religious Reformists

Food For Thought & Contradiction ... 

Recommended Blogs:

HISTORY FORUM: Nader Naderpour on Iran's Constitutional Revolution and European Rennaissance (1996)

HISTORY FORUM: Mashallah Ajoudani on Intellectuals and the Revolution

Mehdi Bazargan and the controversial legacy of Iran's Islamic intellectual movement

HISTORY FORUM: The Age of Enlightment in France and Europe.

DOCUMENTARY: Training of the Future IRI Political Elite ( ARTE TV)

humanbeing Jaan unfortunately Not always ...(i.e: no hejab)

Particularly on the cover of her books :

Iran Awakening: A Memoir of Revolution and Hope

Which in my humble opinion only contributes to making her message ambiguous

It seems that her French Editors made a different choice which is commendable:

Iranienne et libre : Mon combat pour la justice

I have nothing against Mrs. Ebadi. As a Lawyer she is competant and was a former Judge thanks the the Pahlavi Legal System that promoted her in the first place only to lose her status after the Revolution.

But I truly was Never impressed by her political views and dismayed by her constant critics of the exiled opposition which she wrongly assimilated to a bunch of Warmongers, putting them all in the same basket from the MKO to the Monarchists to the Secular Republicans claiming that they all had the same agenda: To Bomb Iran.

This under the direct influence of the IRI Think Tank in Washington all of whome are former revolutionaries and Regime Apologists ranging from Columbia academic Hamid Dabashi, reformist cleric Mohsen Kadivar ( which alas shares my namesake), NIAC advisors such as The Sadri Brothers, Akbar Ganji ( however respectable but well still very much part of the status quo of reformists opposed to regime change) etc ...

Nothing wrong with that except that I Personally Don't Share Their VISION for IRan nor share their historical and political interpretation or justifications for the Revolution of 1979 nor in the case of Hamid Dabashi and the IRI Reformist Think Tank that wants to merely sell us the current Green Movement as only a Civil Rights Movement. 

I disagree with the terminology that the current upheavel and dynamics in Iranian society are merely a Civil Rights Movement because it overlooks the true nature of the regime in Iran which is a totalitarian state and anything but a democracy. Unlike the American Civil Rights movement which concerned one minority: The Black citizens and their rights being denied in a Democratic system of government which was the American State, Iran however has no such thing as a democratic System of government. This is the entire population which is subject to discrimination ( Men and Women included) so this is not like in South Africa or the United States at the time of Martin Luther King's Black March on Washington which concerned one fraction of society against the other half.

This type of Intellectual Mumbo Jambo is good for impressing or manipulating public opinion in democratic countries which gives way to allowing them to hold conferences to sell us their ideas and political philosophy which contrast greatly with the entire democratic struggle of Iranian for the past 100 years.

This does not mean that I do not think that this is a Violent movement but it is a leaderless revolutionary movement that cannot be reduced to merely the Green Supporters that have appeared since last june elections.

This discontent is Profound and deeply the result of 30 years of frustrations on all accounts including the set backs in ALL the Civil Liberties which existed before the revolution which Mrs. Ebadi is fighting to regain back for her clients while overlooking the fact that she became a Judge thanks the the former Imperial Regime that allowed IRanians of all sexes to have access to equal opportunities.

pictory: Promotional Film on Women during Pahlavi Era (1970's)

Mrs. Ebadi either has Alzheimers ( which I doubt she has) or is living in Self Denial and an Imaginary realm that does not exist nor ever existed and that is a Religious democracy.

So basically she is very much part of this school of thought which emerged with reformist President Khatami:

Khatami, Democracy, & Islamic Republic:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUza-yhd9dM 

That is why I think that her mindset as much as that of those who are still hanging on to the ideological foundations of this religious Theocracy known as the Islamic Republic are simply DOOMED both by History and their credibility is truly being questioned by more and more Iranians convinced that the only path to democracy is a Secular Separation of State and Religion.

It's Never late for her to join the forces of Reason and Secularism.

Or remain with the same gang of CLUELESS ANN-TELLECTUALS with whom she seems to share more in common ...

Shirin Ebadi, Seminar on Iran's 2009 Election:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LUyBGmbDiY&feature=channel

Hamid Dabashi, Seminar on Iran's 2009 Election:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFo1TR0Tq50

Ahmad Sadri, Seminar on Iran's 2009 Election :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ75kkwOA8U&feature=channel

Ayatollah Mohsen Kadivar,Fatemeh Haghigatjoo, Mohsen Kadivar- Columbia University :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVXAnCoYCYg

no hejab

whatever you think about ebadi, the only relevant and appropriate thing to say about her appearance is that she makes it a point to appear publicly without the hejab.

Sargord's cheap shots

are not respected. You can criticize Ms. Ebadi if you like. But keep it to a real issue. Otherwise you make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already did.

Great comments by David ET and others on Ebadi,not Sargord's.

I like David ET's comments since he writes about both positive and negative aspects of Ebadi's positions.  David has an excellent point where he writes:"It is sad and funny That the most respected RELIGIOUS LEADER promotes secularism while Shirin Ebadi a lawyer who is supposed to be secular , sitting next to him twists his word still is trying to promote a religious democracy ! "

Fatollah Jan

You are obviously a good guy. It is good to see people who realize we need a separation of religion and politics.

I apologize for having been rude towards you in the past.

VPK

Q

how we can't even agree on the Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi as a good representative of Iranian aspirations.

Are you telling me that Sweden gets to appoint a spokesperson for Iranian people now? I thought you guys were all for independence from the evil and decedent Islam bashing Europeans!

A prize no matter how prestigious given by a Swedish panel does not make one a representative of Iranian people. The only way to be a representative of Iranian people is to win a free and fair vote of the Iranian people: not the IRI kind. Then the person gets to represent Iranians for a limited period. Even then they do not speak for ALL Iranians. They speak for a majority.

We are not followers. We have our own thoughts. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree. But no one can claim to speak for all of us all the time. I don't care if they have a whole house full of prizes.