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Parthianshot91

You are right. This business about part time Islam is BS. I ask: was Mohammad a radical Muslim or a moderate? If we follow his example we rightfully end up in jail. For example:

• If you kill and plunder others specially non Muslims.
• If you rape 9 year olds.

Therefore he sounds like a radical to me. So Islam is radical. I don't believe in the devil but if I did Islam would be his work. Maybe Islam was the div's way of keeping Iran backward and ruining the world.

True form of all religions

You either practice religion fully or not, goes towards all religions. You think most westerners or Americans would be considered as christians in the eyes of jesus if he was alive today? No such thing as a moderate christian nor Muslim, nor jew etc.. You're either one or not. Islam by far is the most violent one, and what it clearly preaches sound like the work of the devil in disguise himself.

Just like the Paki said, you can't be a part time vegeterian, you are or you aren't. Americans and westerners should watch out for Islam, cause it's goal is political conquest for the Arabs. Arabs converted persians, other non-Arab mid-easterners, North Africans, then the Persians converted the Turks, and the Turks converted europeans and Asians, all of this through force and violence. It's a very sick and disgusting cycle that's meant to repeat itself again and again. Anything good out of Islam was stolen from other civilizations and cultures btw, whether values, science, inventions, poetry etc.. only to be claimed by the filthy Islamic Arab cult.

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"They are not afraid of the ideology alone, but of the detemination and will of the men behind it"

 "I'd rather be hated for w

The proper question

Should be: Why should every sane human fear/reject islam?
Those of us who have a realistic view of and a pragmatic approach to life only need to take a look at muslim majority nations...

The One and Only Raoul :-)

VPK

Here we go again...

1- As i asked you, and you are ignoring my question , Suppose Something like that happened. and such opposition was voiced. Then what? Do you think all violence will end all of a sudden? What good is going to come out of it? Is that ALL you want to see? or do you want to see something more deep and more solid?

2- What Imams are making any demands of Non moslims? Are you talking about the "mutually agreed upon" Religious complex construction? does the fact that even mayor Blumberg came out and voluntarily along with NY govorner supporting it, still makes that look like a demand from non moslims to you? Tell me of these "demand" cases so i will at least know whatyou are talking about! Don't leave me in a lurch. Also. they have condemned such radical action numerous times. I live in Texas and I have heard and witnessed them with my own eyes and ears.

3- No, I am not calling the act of you going out, here in USA stoning somebody and getting penalized for it Dictatorial. Please you need to seriously refrain from Purposely and intentionally Twisting my words. I am refrerring to this general tone, either You clean up your acts or we will do it for you as being so . This is like G.W right at the start of the iraq war. That was a dictatorial and dogmatic action. So is your words the way you tend to frame them.

You made a wrong assumption and then ran with it and used it to denounce muslims in general. That is a cheap and unwrothy tactic. Without even thinking what i meant to say, you just jumped the gun .

4- What does Islam's name have to do with all this? Christianity means becoming a follower of christ, entering the christindom, so by that logic christianity also in a way forces submission!! Follow christ or else.Muslim philosophy is similar to any other religion's philosophy. There is a certain degree of coarseness and dogma involved in every religion in the world. Not restricted to ISlam per se.

Of course any violent and extreme behavior plays itself out on a wider scale. You don't think people in the world are having their doubts about Christianity and why The US and it allies invaded a country while claiming to be christians? The "ball" is in their court is a threatening language. Again. you are using your familiar tactic.

5- I agree with you that there are those instances in all of those book but not certainly in the entire text of every single one of them as you make it out to be. father asked to behead his son, But he was ordered not to go through with.  But as i said before i amnot gonna discuss this specific aspect at lenght. I said this last line just to give you an idea of what i have read and heard. Again, there maybe so much subjectivity involved here. So let's not get into that.

In the meantime i suggest you would not resort to  picking on Names( as in name of a religion) and various instances to demean and berate the entire thing.

Mash Ghanbar

I am not sure if I understand what you meaning. If you mean people in Iran are not free to oppose things you are right. Sure  people in Iran are unable to voice their opinion freely and don't expect it. However the Muslims in the West are free to condemn and oppose these acts. They are the ones I am talking about.

I repeat I am not expecting anything major from Muslims. Just the ones in the West who are free to voice their opinion. Voice it! Go out there and condemn fatwahs. How about some Imams in the West? I hear them making demands from non Muslims but never condemning the radicals.

Regarding cleaning up their act. It is no more dictatorial than any other rule of law. What I mean is: act civilized or face the consequences. Any of us in the USA are required to act civilized. If I went out stoning people they would put me in jail. You want to call that dictatorial be my guest. See this is what bothers me about Muslims. To them freedom means their right to misbehave and oppress non believers. I am hoping they will get the idea that this is not going to work. However I am afraid they won't. 

The "My way or highway" thing is too deeply in the Muslim philosophy. There is just not any respect for other points of view. Islam never showed any respect for non Muslims from its inception. What do you expect of a religion which means "submission".

This will play itself out in the world stage. The worse Muslims behave the more they will be demonized. The ball is in their court for now.

PS,

If you don't beleive me about violence in the "holy" books just read s them. How about: kill the first born; people turning into pillars of salt; whole cities destroyed - Sodom and Gamore. Father asked to sacrifice his son. Really what kind of man would agree to cutting his own son's head? And this guy is supposed to be "holy". Right!!

VPK

You are reading but you are only getting whatyour own mind wants to absorb!!

How many campaigns do you know that have been derailed, having to do with protesting and objecting to stonings, needless and unjustified executions, and terrorism in general right inside iran and even on an international scale? How many people were put in jailes for saying what they should not have been saying, being charged with insulting this and that? so Yes. You are putting them on the pedestal. that is what exactly you are doing. They have no choice but to stay silent and you are taking all kinds of wrong advantages of this and making all kinda of accusations against them.

But for the sake of argument Supposed such noise was made and there were waves upon waves of protests. Is that ALL you are asking for? Let's say all the moderate musilms of the world condemned all atrocities committed under their name, once again, over the weekend. IS that gonna satisfy you? Do you really think that will be the end of all the bloodshed?

The world is sick and tired of so many other religious extermists in other parts of the world. and to say that if you don't clean up we will do it for you, sound so dictatorial. and you want all sides heard? hmm.. somehow things don't add up here.

Who do you think was behind all those campaigns? exterimists? bahais? Buddaists? were there any other groups but the more educated and more moderate islamists?

I did not say holy texts are full of violence. I am saying the exact opposite. You are the one making a point of it!!! whole nonsense TO YOU. makes a lotta sense to others. And according to you they have a right to their own beliefs. So what is the problem here? please don't be playing with words.

No that is not whatreligion does. Those who misinterpret it and use it to meet their own goals and needs, are the ones creating the division.

Mash Ghanbar

You are making excuses for moderate Muslims. No one is putting them on a pedestal. We simply expect the minimum civilized behavior. Requesting them to condemn: murder; terrorism; stoning of women; rampant discrimination against others is not much to ask. If moderates are incapable of doing this they are no moderates.

The reality is that the world is sick and tired of this. If they don't clean up their act others will do it for them. 

Regarding "holy text". Fine lets say all the holy texts at least Abrahamic religions are full of violence. I ask: why are these holy and how is it that so much hate and violence is "holy". Why should we pay lip service to a whole lot of nonsense anyway.\

Religion is driving the human race into destruction. 

VPK

let me just reply to your first posting since i really do not want to get into all the details about how things were done in the early times of Islam and what so and so did or did not. I really do not think neither one of us can emerge with a very accurate accounts of what truly transpired back then and allwe got is stories from various historians who may or maynot be able to back their claims up. I meanwho knows if they are telling the truth or not. It is all subjective.

My appologies if i misunderstood you. :)

But do keep in mind that your "thick skin" mantra comes with certain conditions and consequences and especially in our current global climate, it is not a wise thing to declare that sensitivity has gone too far. believe me, all sides have been hurt and have taken it on the chin and some relief and healing would sure be nice.

In the case of wilders, i don't know the extents of respect for human rights and free speech in european style of government, but in his case although i am sorry to see him being put on trial, he has not been convicted of anything YET and is not in jail. Also in USA which i also happen to live, it is not that simple and as black and white as you think that Har ki Har chi bege and it is all fine and dandy, NO, There ARE boundaries and warnings are issued , Perhaps you have not come in contact with it. Even when you Mock Obama or Bush or anything that comes with some rules and It is not HArdanbeel. 

I have no doubt that the dutch people are mature and wise enough to know better than to be influenced rather so easily, But don't you think that certain mechanisms should be at wrok, i.e, checks and balances to make sure no one gets treated unfairly? To protect their rights and protect them from being offended? You don't think that such is the basis for democracy and having a domocratic society? Would it not be better to Nip the roots of bigotry and hatred in the butt, rather than having to deal with Petty attacks and crossing physical boundaries in the future?

Quoran is not hate speech. You are wrong. See, This is you pushing an idea. You have not the whole thing and being convinced that by looking at a few seemigly hateful passages, you have figured the rest must be the same is too shallow of an idea.

I understand the value of a lively debate but i also that in a true democracy , we should envision a set of rights where "the sharp edges" will not cause an unnecessary and potentially divisive society. An successful government will make to sure to play an effective role in such matters.

Cost of Progress

I am really not here to defend anything and i do not even consider myself within the "radica" category. I think I fall within your second category whereby i am a muslim by decent. What you are doing here is that you are creating a common denominator between the inadequacies of Islam and its shortcomings, which no religions in the history of mankind has been immune to, and its followers. You canbet that you can go through Torah and Bible and come up with certain roughly-crafted language that would give the same exact impression to a muslim.  You really can not make the claim that any holy text make the Clear and unmitigated assertion that all is fair when confronting and overcoming the enemy. In fact what authors such as Reza aslan argue in their books to to take that particular image away and neutralize it. There definitely are instances where certain acts of generosity, comraderie, and compassion have been shown,

You are blaming the moderates and putting them on the pedestal, as to why they are not standing up to these atrocities as if they can accomplish this overnight and then you hold it against them and call them, in a sense that hey, if you are not doing anything to stop this then you must like what you see and support it. as much as i hate to admit this but there are no easy ways to actually FIGHT these violent tendencies on the radical islamists front. You notice the level of activities and protests against such behavior, even inside iran and you also witness the consequences. Regarding other Groups such as taliban and etc... How can you effectively exert control over them while they are so fractured and broken down into various small grouplets?

So even though it sounds nice to make a case out of a lack of decisive move against the radicals. in reality and for all intents and purposes, given the herculean nature of the task, it is near impossible or it at least take a lot of time. In the meantime, raising your level of expectations of moderate muslim and putting the pressure on them, would not produce desired results.

Mash Ghanbar

I have a question: Was the "Prophet" Mohammad a moderate or radical Muslim? I would say that his actions *define* Islam. If he did it then it was Islam. Marrying a 6 year old kid was not act of some radical nut. It was Mohammad himself that did it. The act of killing non Muslims and taking their belongings was by Mohammad. 

In short: does Mohammad get counted as a "radical Muslim. If so then Islam is radical. If not then moderate Islam condones marrying 6 year olds and the rest.

Muslims claim that those opposed are "racist" or some other BS. No, we just oppose the ideology not the race. 

But it is easier to call the opposition racist than to face reality.

Mash Ghanbar

First of all I did not call you an Islamist. I said you are using the same arguments. Frankly I have no use for people who are easily insulted. In the big world we need thick skins. This whole "sensitivity" thing has gone way too far. Open debate! Anyway you seem to handle debate fine so why get insulted my friend.

As for Wilders he should have NEVER gone on trial. He did not cross any physical boundaries. He spoke his mind. You may live in Europe; I live in USA. In here we have freedom to say whatever we want. No one gets prosecuted for "hate speech". People here called Bush a fascist murderer. They call Obama things I won't mention. They did this to all their leaders. They make a lot of fun of Jesus; Moses; AND Mohammad. No one gets put in jail. Europe simply has less respect for freedom of speech. That's all.

Bringing charges of "inciting hatred" is very much the "big brother". Do they think that an average Dutch citizen is so easily influenced? Do they mistrust their own people's judgment as to shield them from ideas? That is the philosophy of a frightened people. Brave people trust their on judgment and are not afraid of idea. If an idea is bad of stupid then it will be exposed. If we follow the European approach what will prevent Qoran from being called "hate speech". 

If we go with these repressive big brother approaches then no speech is safe. Tomorrow the same thing may be applied to Quoran or Bible or fo Communist Manifesto for that matter. Does Marx inst hatred towards the rich? How about Quran toward the "moshrek" or old testament toward idol worshipers and homosexuals. See almost any lively debate has sharp edges to it. Putting hurt feelings above free speech is a great way to ruin a democracy.

Respect is earned

Time and again, we hear from folks that one should respect others' beliefs. Excellent I say, I agree 100%. However, the majority of folks who make that statement are muslims - be it practicing and devout, or just muslim by decent (by far the overwhelming majority fall into this category). The trouble is while the harmless muslims, harmless except perhasp to their country and heritage, may deserve the repect demanded, Islam by nature does not extend that courtesy to those of other faiths and belief "systems". Islam's holy book , Ghoraan, clearly allows the murder of those who do not accept allah as their one and only god, and paves the way for the belongings of the infidel - including his wife and children to be captured after the army of islam eliminates the infidel.
I know this is hard and insulting to thsoe who embrace Islam, I mean no disrepect - no pun intended, of course. But please, there are hundreds of other instances where islam is a discriminatory entity that sees itself and no one else - You say that's radical Islam? Fine, then why don't the true Muslims, what's claimed as the majority speak out - SPEAK OUT against all the killings , agaisnt the numerous number of your very own people who are murdered at the hands of the so called extremists.
STOP the circle of violence, the circle of hate. May be then you won't be feared, or hated.

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

BTW

 The following is the perfect example of you not practicing what you preach. This demonstrates your hatred. Calling one ideology bankrupt as if you everything there is to know about it.

The problem is that Islam is bankrupt. Muslims know they will lose any arguments. How could someone win an argument why they should stone people? Or to marry a 6 year old. Therefore they resort to ham handed legal means. Or to rioting to suppress the truth. If won't work. More people by the day find out about the truth of it.

You don't even bother to respect those live and exist as we speak and practice it on a moderate level. Oh NO. T o you they are all evil and follow a bankrupt ideology and all favor stoning and marrying young children... To people like you there is no such thing a moderation and middle ground. You want it all or nothing at all. You pretend to want to hear from everyone but at the end what you believe should and has to prevail.

Nice cover up job. I must say.

VPK

Now you are proving to be the master Spinner. I said no such things and take those as insults and accusations against me. You have Absolutely no proof and are lumping me in with "islamists" why ? simply out of sheer hatred for islam. You are so mad you are about to burst and you just can keep it all in one place. I have not DEMANDED for anything to be banned. Do you even know what the word means?? SHow me the proof. I want to see it.

You are as ususal going through the hodgepodge of unrelated things and are not proving anything. He is ON TRIAL means he has not been convicted yet, When he gets the sentence that is when you can Jump off the deep end and puke in face and all over him. His charge is Inciting hatred And what does that mean? That he has been allowed to say what he wanted to say and IT DID NOT PRODUCE GOOD RESULTS. Free speech does certainly not meansaying whatever you want withouth any consequences, Even here in the states there are repercussions that you will face. It is Valued and cherished and not legislated, But guess what, You go and start a picket line and cross a certain line, you will be arrested.

Banning "hatred"

Folks Hatred is a human feeling. You cannot ban people from having feelings. You can try to win their hears but not by putting them in jail if you disagree. 

Imagine:

Scenario A

1) Person A hates Islam so speaks out against it.

2) Politically correct people ban his speech and put him in jail.

3) Many more people now sympathize with person A thus leading to more hatred.

Scenario B

1) Person A hates Islam so speaks out against it.

2) There is an open discussion as to why. Other points are explained. All in a civil manner. No one is banned.

3) With more understanding there is less hate. 

The problem is that Islam is bankrupt. Muslims know they will lose any arguments. How could someone win an argument why they should stone people? Or to marry a 6 year old. Therefore they resort to ham handed legal means. Or to rioting to suppress the truth. If won't work. More people by the day find out about the truth of it.

Mash Ghanbar

I don't demand other people think like me but I air my views.

You on the other hand are demanding that speech be banned. Meaning that *yiu* want to make everyone say and think what you see fit.Muslims are consistent in accusing others of what they themselves do. They blame others for being hypocrites while Islam is hypocritical. They blame others for being intolerant while they are the ones going on riots and wrecking cities. They accuse others of disrespect while they show 0 respect for other people.

You say: Hatred of any kind MUST be prohibited acros the world. Don't like it? too bad.

It is not up to the government to legislate feee political speech. Thank god I live in the USA. Where freedom of speech is valued and cherished. Not in Europe where all you need is a big mouth and you get to ban other people. What Wilders is saying is true. Even if it was 100% false he should still be allowed to say it. By banning speech you gain nothing. Shah banned Khomeini from speaking. Did that help his regime? No! It made people think Khomeini was smarter than he really was. Let people talk and decide for themselves.

absolute Nonsense

Of course there is such a thing as Moderation in Practicing Islam. Why do you people Push absurdly radical notions?

VPK

The freedom that is afforded to all individuals in europe serves as a means to prevent unfair generalizations such as you do, so there won't be any conflicts. You think just because you see this as an evil so should everyone else, and once they don't, Then that means PC is being forced on people and They get tried for Calling it as they see it.

Remember He is on Trial for "inciting" religious Hatred. Hatred of any kind MUST be prohibited acros the world. Don't like it? too bad.

Re: The Paki

You are 100% right. But this does not fit into the "happy global village" dream of Liberals. So they lie to themselves; stick their heads in the sand and shout down others. They force "Political Correctness" on others specially in Europe. If you don't agree they try you in court just like Greet Wilders .

The price of telling it as is will be getting called Naiz and racist. Or going to jail. Some freedom they have in wonderful Europe huh.  

The Paki

The British Paki explained the true form of Islam very well, you either follow it or you don't. No such thing as a "moderate muslim". You're either a practicing one, or not.

 --------------------------------------------------------------

"They are not afraid of the ideology alone, but of the detemination and will of the men behind it"

 "I'd rather be hated for w

Just because Islam has been in continuous war with the West

... for the last 1400 years, in one form or another - should the Americans and Europeans fear Islam?

Ponders my hunting goat ;-)

OMG

Are you actually doing this?
You sound like the male version of Ms. rosie:))

Ok. don't worry about it. it is cool. I hear you:)

peace Bro:)

The assumption

I was referring to was that you would think I am making fun of your name. If you read my posts and get to know my style you know I don't do that. I do not make fun of people's names nor do I mock them. I do not stoop to name calling. I take you seriously and produce serious arguments.

Maybe we disagree but I like to keep things respectful. If I do criticize it will be based on your arguments. Not based on your name or avatars.

VPK

My post was in reference to your "unfounded assumption" on my part regarding the main subject not the typo problem.

Ciao.

I said

I mistyped. If I was trying to "make fun" then why do I immediately admit the mistake and try to fix it? Nothing is rocking any boats. I wanted to type Ghanbar "r" and "d" are close on the keyboard. I hit the wrong one.

Sorry!

The "edit" feature ain't working.

Yeah yeah

unfounded assumptions. Sure.

Okay buddy. whatever rocks your boat.

It was a typo!

Again you go on making unfounded assumptions. I was a typo and I tried to fix it. But the "edit" botton is missing. It happens on IC and now I am stuck with a typo and no way to fix it.

VPK. Calling me Ghanbad? Oh ok. I can play your childish games t

I do not Insist on distorting anything. Please have some respect . I am merely going by what i am reading which is what you wrote. I am not just assuming here.

PBS is PBS, Not Chris mattews Hard ball or Bill O'riley's show, Their Motto is to give each side a fair and decent chance to be heard and by golly fair chance they do give. They don't want a cross-fire approach . and that is pretty Informative,.

Not all of "they" whoread the koran Go and blow themselves up. get real baba. How biased and one-sided can you be? Not all of those who read koran practice stoning or other outrageous and Hideous crimes. 

I do not see anything wrong with its teachings Per se. But (pay attention here) I DO SEE plenty wrong With how they are being interpreted. any religious text can be read in a certain way where the message can be that of destruction and obliteration. Bible and Torah have all received that type of treatment. It all depends on who reads it and at one angle this reading gets interpretd. So yeah. It really is your way vs their way. And it will always be like that/ you might as well get used to it and deal with it.

No i don't agree with such harsh interpretations and announcements. Do i think they are in there? Unless i am a talabeh neithe I nor anyone else can claim that they have read All of it and know for sure that such things are in there. That includes you as well.

Mash Ghanbad

You insist on misreprenting what I am saying. I will make one more attempt. If you are bent on distorting my statements then I have nothing more to say. If you really want to know what I think then put aside your assumptions and read what I am writing.

• I did not say "his points are uninformative". I said PBS interviews on Islam are uninformative. Because they are so politically correct as to be useless.
• I am not saying "get him". I am saying ask the difficult questions: Sharia; treatment of minorities; death penalty for those who leave Islam; treatment of women; treatment of homosexuals and so on. That is a vigorous debate which actually informs. 

So it is basically Your lifetime of experience and observation vs that of others. Agreed? You see bad, while they see good. They read the same koran and they didn 't see anything wrong with, not the case with you. Where do we stand now?

They read the same Koran then go and blow themselves up. Or stone women; or issue fatwahs and actually go through with it. Yup, my experience against theirs. Maybe you don't see anything wrong with teachings of Koran as I mentioned above.

Are these in the Koran? Do you agree with them? These are kinds of questions I want to have asked. Don't you think we should know where people stand on these issues. Or should we be polite and PC with our heads firmly in the sand.

We don't care about the "Moderate" Muslims

This wasted debate was supposed to be about the Radical Muslims.Noone Fears the Moderate Muslims the politically correct use all the time to change the topic from the Radical ones.

I'm frankly sick of Islamist's ruining this debate The only fear of Moderate Muslims is that they may turn Radical which is very possible.This is called 'Intelligence'.

We're not fighting moderate Muslims.Now when the world of Islam decides it is time to face the debate it will be a step towards Peace for their Religion.Notice I didn't write 'Religion of Peace'...

VPK

Are you comparing Reza aslan and the Ayatollah now? What is the point? Do you actually think of him as a leader? You are doing the apple and Kamyonn comparison here my friend. Not even apples and oranges! Perhaps it is you who needs to remove the lens of pessimism and give Moderation a chance. So far all you seem to be saying is that You just don't want to have anything to do with anyone who even speaks of Islam. This, coming out of someone who stands solidly by the mantra "let us give everyone a chance"??? Well,. I assue you Neither NIAC or Aslan are any close to be in "charge" of anything.

His points are "useless" and "uniformitive" why? because he does not say what you want to hear? Is that what makes it Uninformative?

No hardball questions? Do you expect to see him being asked questions where he is forced to say something bad about Islam so that then  you'd say. AHA! look at that sucker. he finally admitted!! 

So it is basically Your lifetime of experience and observation vs that of others. Agreed? You see bad, while they see good. They read the same koran and they didn 't see anything wrong with, not the case with you. Where do we stand now?