PERSECUTION

faryarm

Zoroastrianism, Buddha and Krishna were prior to Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. 

I believe none claimed a prophesy and they were spiritual figures or leaders. However, only the Baha'i faith considers Buddha as prophet. You ask why?  Perhaps to legitimize their own false claim about Baha'ullah. If Buddha could be a prophet, so could Baha'ullah.

As for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Clearly there are many historic writings and proofs to their true prophecy. Unless you want to deny the history.

I hope this would be helpful ..... From the Master

  مولوی - چه تدبیر ای مسلمانان که من خود را نمیدانم

چه تدبیر ای مسلمانان که من خود را نمیدانم
نه ترسا و یهودیم نه گبرم نه مسلمانم

نه شرقیم نه غربیم نه بریم نه بحریم
نه ارکان طبیعیم نه از افلاک گردانم

نه از خاکم نه از بادم نه از ابم نه از اتش
نه از عرشم نه از فرشم نه از کونم نه از کانم

نه از دنیی نه از عقبی نه از جنت نه از دوزخ
نه از ادم نه از حوا نه از فردوس رضوانم

مکانم لا مکان باشد نشانم بی نشان باشد
نه تن باشد نه جان باشد که من از جان جانانم

دویی از خود بیرون کردم یکی دیدم دو عالم را
یکی جویم یکی گویم یکی دانم یکی خوانم

ز جام عشق سرمستم دو عالم رفت از دستم
بجز رندی و قلاشی نباشد هیچ سامانم

اگر در عمر خود روزی دمی بی او بر اوردم
از ان وقت و از ان ساعت ز عمر خود پشیمانم

الا ای شمس تبریزی چنان مستم در ین عالم
که جز مستی و قلاشی نباشد هیچ درمانم

Dear Dariush

What exactly are, as you put it are Baha'u'llah's "mistakes" ? for that matter

the other Prophets and messengers of God like, Buddah, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus , Muhammd and the Bab. ?

Really interested as to the point you are trying to make.

Thanks 

Faryar

nokteha

First you wrote a faith to die for.

Then you wrote a faith of life, happiness, peace and etc?

I call it, Business as usual.

Baha'ullah was neither

Baha'ullah was neither a prophet nor a good businessman. He made false claims and big mistakes that have harmed his followers and he was not the only one making false claims and mistakes.

When Jesus introduced himself as a message of God, many laughed at him. Then he showed miracles to prove that he is a messenger of God. Then the same people who would call him names and wouldn't believe him at first, started calling him God. This claim just as Bahaullah's claim, angered the ruling government (the Romans) and Jesus was crucified for it.  When Christians preach to me and say Jesus died for our sin and try to convert me.  I tell them, he died for your sin not mine.  They ask how? I answer, the sin of calling Jesus God and causing his death.

So I see similar false claim by followers of Jesus and Baha'ullah, with similar results. At least Christians/Jews unconsciously admit to their mistakes, but the Baha'is don't admit to Bahaullah's mistakes.

However, I condemn any violence toward Baha'is and other minorities and the majority Muslims.  

A Faith to Die for!

Dear All, this article has generated excellent discourse.  Just wanted to point out,regardless of how one looks at the Baha'i Faith, you need to look at the transformation that it has brought about through its forerunner the Babi Faith and  itself to change the same people to those who are willing to die rather than kill for their belief. The fact is the Baha'i Faith is the source and guidance for its adherents that gives them something much more valuable that they give their lives voluntarily, a contrast from those who claim to be religious and blow themselves up among the innocent through coercion of promises of an after life that has to do more with bodily pleasures than the nature of their soul!!

That simple switch should indicate what Baha'i Faith is about,sacredness of life and its elevation.

Transformation of the heart is not through intellectual discourse but it is through acts of kindness and gladness of the soul, that tingling of a feeling one gets when they hug someone or help someone in need; through Words that inspires such acts regardless where those Words originate from, without discrimination, without exclusions.  Very simple, as the Words of Abdul-Baha, son of Baha’u’llah, remarked to an audience in London just before the WWI: "During the last six thousand years nations have hated one another,it is now time to stop. War must cease. Let us be united and love one another and await the result. We know the effects of war are bad.So let us try, as an experiment, peace, and if the results of peace are bad,then we can choose if it would be better to go back to the old state of war!Let us in any case make the experiment. If we see that unity brings Light we shall continue it. For six thousand years we have been walking on the left-hand path; let us walk on the right-hand path now. We have passed many centuries in darkness, let us advance towards the light”

Happy to report that after the murder of Dr BERJIS in Kashan..

Happy to report that after the murder of the beloved Dr BERJIS in Kashan, each generation after him has produced a number Doctors in the BERJIS Family.
Today there must be a Doctor BERJIS in every continent.
God acts in mysterious ways !

Faryarm

Alborz jan, not burdensome at all, just have to take

grandchildren out for some ice cream, so have to make it short.

"historial and contemporary issues of Baabieh," simple means this:

There are ONLY two substantial books on the history of Baabieh, Fashahi's" The last Movement of the Medeival Period," and "Ragee Taag," by Delaram Mash'hori. And on this site, and only on this site, you have the most comprehensive reviews, critques,.. not to mention the former book in its entirety. I doubt any of these two titles were published by the trust in Tehran.

My reading of history is influenced by what is somtimes refferd to as historical materialism, to this you could add cultural materialism( Raymond Williams), radical geography( David Harvey),..

Hope that settles the matter, now, onwards towards ice cream cones, and mild headache from childrens laughter! Once you give'em some sugar, they're just uncontrollable!

Hoshang jaan...I am not even a student of history!

I am beginning to understand the perspective from which you write and up to this point I was responding to the conclusions that you expressed explicitly or impicitly.

I have examined the site more closely and find it to be a collection of material, which are primarily commentaries or historical narratives by various authors, many of whom I recognize as being Baha'is and whose works were published by the Baha'i Publishing Trust in Iran before the revolution.   I failed to find the specific material that you intended me to find and make the connection to our exchange. 

I must be missing something here and also don't know what you mean by "historial and contemporary issues of Baabieh".   It is not my intention to exhaust you in this regard, but rather to understand your point, specifically. Please don't feel obligated to respond if this proves to be  burdensome.

Best,

Alborz

Dear Demo, splits in Islam have a lot more substantial rational

and history behind them, than reducing it to some "grouppies" or what not.

The best source I've read so far is a book by Mahmood Ibrahim called: " Merchant Capital and Islam," Ibrahim traces the development of Islam within the Mecca's merchant class, and demonstrates how the Sunni/Shia split occured amongst the early and later adherents to the faith.

The fact that although the dispute was couched in terms of ideas, and values it had everything to do with lack of social mobility for Shias ( not direct decendents of Mecca merchants, and left out of the wealth accumulation,...). As for the emergence of Baabian, again social factors, poverty and tyrrany  were a lot more of a motive than any thing else.

The Story of OZ

Perhaps the Shias’ Mule-OZ should blame themselves for the emergence of Bahais’ groupies as their own Shia-ism cult believes in a “Hidden Imam” who has not been substantiated anywhere in Quran. Both Shias & their brethrens Bahais know well that no divisions (cultism) in religion have been allowed in Quran. It is also noteworthy that the religious hierarchies are also absent in Quran & are of Mule-OZ’s own inventions.  

Alborz jan, I'm only a student of history, not a historain!

even as a mere students I'm not sure how we could compare the emergence, evolution, and repression of the Baabi/Bahai movement /community in three distinct periods of Iranian history.

During Ghajar, due to the extreme backwardness of the society and lack of equality and freedom ( as Nategh and others point out) we had all these different millennialist movements ( Shikhieh, Baabieh,..) these movements especially Baabieh were able to gather enough social forces to challenge the state in a frontal battle, result of which was one of the most gruesome genocides we've ever had in Iranian history. The irony of this supression was that it was mainly carried out by Amir Kabir, who later himself became a victim of mullahs. The Baabieh movement was crushed but their basic ideas and goals lived, and in a few decades after that we had Constitutional Rev.

During Pahlavi: the society went through a top-down, despotic "modernization," as Ms. Amimi also mentions Reza shah had an ambivelant relation with Bahais, he didn't listen to mullahs about them, but still ruled with an iron fist, the second Pahlavi was basically a continuationof the 1st, as an example when the Imperial Army of Iran in Isfahan (1963) destroyed Bahai's shrine, the army was congragulated by Ayyat Shaytan Borojerdi on their "patriotic" action, while the commander of the Imperial Army did not say a word.

Islamic Hell: Establishment of a theocratic state, (a direct outgrowth of despotic monarchy), says it all.

To make a very long story short, each of these periods have their own characteristics, dynamics, and problematics. Any compare and contrast would  yield at best some very abstract generalities.

//www.babieh.com/  if you spend a few hours,and check out all their departments, I'm sure you'll find this as the most comprehensive source of info on the historical and contemporary issues of Baabieh, cheers

-Hoshang

Most moslem Iranians feel your pains! We all are suffering 2

under this regime. I had an uncle (not blood related, but my dad's best army friend) whose wife & kids were bahaii, but he wasn't. I spent many nights in their house and never thought of their religion. Only their mom would always ask me when I would become bahaii which I would brush off.

We behaved as our culture had taught us "ISSA BEH DINEH KHODESH, MOSSA BEH DINEH KHODESH.". This is what is wrong with a religious governemnet. It (mis)uses the religion to strengthens its own power and eliminate the oppositions, and in the process weakens the secular's beliefs' in the religion. This regime actually is against islam, but it doesn't even know it! There is nothing islamic about this regime! 

That said, religion can be good or it can mess up w/ one's brain. Moslems think their religion is the best, so do the bahaiis, jews, christians etc. Can they all be right? If we think ours is not the best, we would convert! Yet this is how religion messes up with one's brain. One becomes so stubborn in his/her belief that is ready to die 4 it, but not to convert to another religion. is it smart? only you know the answer. We are all brian washed by religion early on. That's why we don't change religion but we become neutral.

It really is nice looking from outside knwoing that you no longer belong to one religion but many and none, and you are calling the shots not by fear from hell, but letting your heart, instinct and values (which mostly derived from religion and culture) guide you.

To the day that we all follow our rich culture from the oldest nation on earth becoming the symbol of tolerance and no bigotry again. //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_statehood#Historical_kingdoms_and_dynasties

obama

Mr. Targol...

...thank you for the reference. I had not come across this site earlier.

A perusal of the site indicates that it documents the Babi movement and some of its principals and their writings in the period that I referenced and not the current nor the Pahlavi era.  So can we agree that what you call a struggle is no longer present?

The clarification that you have provided regarding the "accommodation" during the Pahlavi era is also appreciated. 

Clearly the circumstances during the Pahlavi era was very different from the period under the Qajars and today's clerical regime.  As a consequence if you feel that it is appropriate to compare  the response of the Babis under the Qajars to the Baha'is under the Pahalavis, then I can see how you have come to characterize theirs as an "accommodation".

However, should this comparisons not account for the historical context?  Failing to do so could call into question the validity of the conclusions drawn from such comparisons.  Any thoughts?

Finally, let's not loose sight of the outcome.

Best,

Alborz

Thanks for this great article.

It was informative yet saddening at the same time.

Jenab Aghay Alborz

You're correct in pointing out the 32 years of non-violent resistance waged by Bahai community against IR.

The acommodation I refferd to obviously would apply only to the Pahlavi period, and even then such gestures by the community were not necessarily  responded to in a positive manner, destruction of shrines during both Pahlavis,...

As far as the Baabi movement, practically all major movers and shakers of Constitutional Rev were either directly Baabi themselves or greatly inflenced by them. Hence mullahs eternal apprehensiveness towards the Constitutional Rev as a Baabi conspiracy!

As far as sources, the best sorce that comes to mind is : //www.babieh.com/ . Hope this has answered most if not all your queries.

Hopefully in the near future we'll continue this important historical discussion INSIDE IRAN, working towards such a day, cheers

-Hoshang

Thank you Dear Souri...

... for the attention. It is fixed now.

Yours,

Alborz

Dear Alborz

Thanks for your great input. It's so much enlightening as always.

Not sure if a typo mistake has slipped there ? Here you worte:

"While there may be some Babis in Iran, I am now aware of the existence of a Babi community and therefore not able to associate a "struggle for freedom" to any period in the 20th century or even today."

Did you mean that you are NOT aware of the existence of a Babi community?

Should I read "Not" instead of "Now" in that phrase? Or maybe I'm mistaken, in which case I didn't get your point in that particular part.

Thank you.

Thank you Ms. Amini

I found your article very informative.   I attended a conference last year where a presentation was made on the origins of the persecuation of the Baha'is (Rishe-haye Baha'i Setizi).   I thought that this may of interest to you and have provided you with the links to the audio of this talk - it is in four parts.

//www.megaupload.com/?d=CQ2W1Y60

//www.megaupload.com/?d=3TPOFRJO

//www.megaupload.com/?d=0NGK2FUJ

//www.megaupload.com/?d=OI32I4LY

Thank you,

Alborz

R2-D2 and Mr. Targol

Your expression of sympathy and compassion for the plight of the Baha'is is appreciated.  Your comments included references to personal recollections and conclusions which are respectfully acknowledged.

R2-D2 - The practical recommendation of leaving Iran is not consistent with the beliefs of those that make up this community.  When the members of the community are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and not submit to dissimulation (taghieh), one cannot apply the criteria which you and I may use when placed in similar circumstances, no matter how practical it may be.

Mr. Targol - You are correct in that the Babi's of the 19th century responded to persecutions differently than persecutions that the Baha'is faced in the 20th and beyond.  Your characterization is somewhat problematic, however.  Despite 31 years of systematic persecution there is a Baha'i community in Iran which today more than ever has garnered the support of their englightened countrymen.  The consistent and peaceful response to the ever increasing acts of persecution has exposed the true nature of the persecutor and the persecuted.  A non-violent and peaceful response is not the same as "accomodation".  The numerous resolutions that have focused the attention of the world community on the human right violations in Iran are to a great extent founded on the blatant treatment of minorities in Iran, and the Baha'i International Community can be credited for this awareness to a large degree.   Within Iran, the Baha'i community is relentlessly engaged in improving the socio-economic conditions of the impoverished and for this its youth are being imprisoned. This is yet another form of struggle.

Furthermore, I am not sure what you are referring to when you say the Babis "still ahere to struggle for freedom".  While there may be some Babis in Iran, I am not aware of the existence of a Babi community and therefore not able to associate a "struggle for freedom" to any period in the 20th century or even today.  Can you please tell me what source or reference you have to support this characterization.  I am sincere in my request as I would like to know the voracity of this claim.

Those that had come into contact with the teachings of the Bab were indeed inspired and were active in the Constitutional Revolution.  This again is related to the turn of the previous century and today even the young people of Iran know that their struggle for freedom needs to take on a different form so that the past is not repeated. 

Thanks again to you both,

Alborz 

Hoshang Targol

My recommendation of the Bahais leaving Iran after this brutal and barbaric regime came into power, was more of a practical thing than anything else ... Not probably much different than what the Jews should have done when the Nazis came into power in Germany ...

You are absolutely correct that the atrocities that this regime has committed, and is still committing,  towards our beloved Brothers and Sisters in Iran does neither stop, nor is limited, to the Bahais only -

However, it's perhaps fair to say, that the brutality of this regime is probably more significant, focused, and perhaps even highly organized towards the Bahais than  any other group ...

I hope that has clarified things for you .....

Best,

R D

Very informative, shocking article

thank you Ms. Amini for this, a timely remider.

Was wondering if you still had access to  the article from Baran , and could post it here.

Also, Ms. Homa Nategh had a number of articles in Alefba, a long while ago, where she reffers to these millennialist movements towards the end of Ghajar era ( Shaikhieh, Babieh, Hoorofieh,..)  their emergences, and how the monarchy in its aim of suppresing these movements relied heavily on the Shia establishment. Nategh points to  this historical contingency as the true begining of clergy's dominance in modern Iran. Was wondering if you ( or other readers ) had any thoughts on that. 

----------------------------------------------------------- 

R2D2 jan, there's WAS a connection between the mainstream Bahai community and Baab, but I doubt  it lasted that long: there were people claming to be Baabi and NOT Bahai, and very adament about it. The basic difference between Baabi's and Bahai's, the former still adhere to struggle for freedom, while the latter just seek to maintain the community through accommodation with whoever is in power.

As far as recommending that all Bahai's should have left Iran, KHAILI HAM MAMNON! if we go with this logic of "the writing on the wall" IR also had it for Iranian women (50% of the population)since day one, and the Kurds, and other Sunnis, and the Jews,...then the whole country should have just left and leave the land to mullahs.

It's taken 32 years ( a life time) for this monstrosity to run its course and approach its misreable end, all of this is due to our steadfast struggle within Iran. Hopefully we shall continue such conversations in a free Iran in the near future.

------------------------------------------------------

P.S. The 16 year old student from Shiraz: Mona [mentioned in the article] is the first on the upper left side.

Down with Islamic Republic.

Stop all executions in Iran.

Free all political prisoners in Iran.

Yes ... But ..

This article has omitted a crucial fact that goes to the heart of much of the persecution of the Bahais in Iran today ...

The prophet Bahaullah (Mirza Hossein Ali Nouri) was also the follower of Siyyid `Alí Muḥammad Shírází  (Bab), who at the time, claimed to be the re-appearance (the second coming) of the Mahdi (Imam-e Zaman) ...

Bab was subsequently executed - Mirza Hossein Ali Nouri, having come from a distingished family from Tehran, was sent to exile (Ottoman Empire) rather than getting executed also ...

One of the other claims that Bab made was that after him, a prophet would come that would be even greater than him - This claim was somewhat similar to the claim John the Baptist made vis-a-vis the coming of Jesus ...

While in exile, Mirza Hossein Ali Nouri claimed that he was the prophet that Bab had foretold - and ultimately, changed his name to Bahaullah ...

What I'm trying to say is this: The linkage between Bahaullah and Bab, in my opinion, is much more significant in the present day persecution of the Bahais in Iran than the fact that Bahullah violated the belief that Muhammad was the last Prophet .....

Again, Bab claimed to be the re-appearnce of the Mahdi (Imam-e Zaman) - In the eyes of the present day Islamic Republic leaders, who are Shia Muslims, and with great anticipation are expecting the return of the Mahdi, such a claim by Bab was not only sacrilege, but total blasphemy ...

And the fact that Bahaullah was so closely linked to Bab, and essentially fulfilled his prophecy, make the Bahais so unacceptable to this present regime in Iran ...

I would like to share something on a personal level with you:

When I was growing up in Iran in the late 1960's, and early 1970's, my father knew two Bahai brothers (Hooshang and Mohammad) who used to come and visit him at his office every once in a while - We lived in Tehran, but the brothers, and my dad,  were all from the city of Yazd -

Whenever I ran into them, I remeber my dad and the brothers kidding oneother, and essentially having a good time - I never heard my father, not even once, saying anything derogatory about the Bahais ...

In my personal opinion, I believe that the Bahai community in Iran would have been much better off had they left Iran altogether when this brutal and barbaric regime came into power - I know that this is easier said than done - But with the supportive networks that the Bahais have outside of Iran, this would probably have been achievable -

As the saying goes, the writing was on the wall as to how the Bahais were going to be treated by this regime :) - !

Wishing all the best,

R D

P.S. Looking forward to a day when we, all Iranians, could have a Secular Democracy in our Beloved Land - A system where Religion and Politics are totally and completely separate from oneanother -

Let's Hope And Work Towards That Day ...

Pure And Simple :) - !

May one day we treat everyone equally & with utmost respect

Man Iraniam Poem: For all Iranians from all ethnic and religious groups. ♡♡♡

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt9YXPmx1C4