PERSECUTION

My post on the Denkart has been flagged

In their embarrassment the Baha'is have flagged my post which questions their concocted passage from the Zoroastrian Denkart. This message together with that one are now going on the USENET group TRB.

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Original message

"When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from
the inception of the religion of the Arabian (Muhammad) and the
overthrow of the kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of
My religion, a descendant of the Iranian kings (?) will be raised up as
a Prophet."--- ZOROASTER- Dinkird

Here is the Denkard/Denkart:

//www.avesta.org/denkard/denkard.htm

Find me your passage in it. There is no such passage. Besides the Denkard/Denkart
is a late Zoroastrian text from the tenth century during the Islamic
period. It is not scripture in the same way that the Gathas are and it
is not part of the Avesta (i.e. Yasna, Visperad, Vendidad, Siroza, etc). Denkard/Denkart is a late Zoroastrian encyclopedia, and that is all.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

thexmaster

Take your swim goggles off, so you can read better. I wrote, the basic rights are for everyone and yes, there are certain areas that a Jew shouldn't have the rights to be because of national security issues and other reasons. 

Is that the best you can do? One hospital that is probably mostly helping their own community in the past 5,000 years?  I have done a lot of searching and haven't had much luck. Why don't you find some and post them here so everyone can read?

The argument i am making is not that Baha'is don't have rights. It is about their false claims.

These are your own internal revisionist links

Not independently substantiated or corroborated beyond your own internal sources of manufactured ahistorical "revisionist" propaganda. It is non-objective and largely concocted post facto. On the contrary, it is your brazen and shameless historical revisionism here which doesn't count for a diddle.

Cheshmaatoon chaahaartaa:

Sadiqa Dawlatabadi

The Bayani community of Iran

Yahya Dawlatabadi

Prime Minister Mohammad-Ali Foroughi

Ali Akbar Dehkhoda

Allameh Mohammad Qazvini

But while I have you here, could you please find the passage from the Zoroastrian Denkart Faryar claims exists in his post? Thanks.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Amen Shepesh. why this awful

Amen Shepesh. why this awful nickname though?

faryarm

Yes, they all believe in the coming of one, but none accepted Baha'ullah as being the one. Except the Baha'ullah himself. That is what makes him a self proclaimed prophet. That is one of the reasons that I believe Baha'ullah wasn't just a spiritual man, he was also a politician and a businessman, but a bad businessman who didn't quite calculate the risks and rewards of his statements and his actions.

I can pull thousands of errors, questions and contradictions from Baha'i faith like the one I posted earlier, but at the end, you will be the same and I have wasted many hours.

Aryana-Vaeja - irrelevant links don't count!

Since you asked here is a talk on the contributions of the Baha'i community of Iran during the 20th century to the development of Iran.   Names, dates and specific contributions are all referenced and substantiated.

//www.megaupload.com/?d=7NM3M0Y9

//www.megaupload.com/?d=524D85RS

//www.megaupload.com/?d=JPMOL8WE

//www.megaupload.com/?d=BCOVIP18

//www.megaupload.com/?d=S3Q84E8R

Happy listening!

Alborz

What??!! Bahai misappropriation of the Denkart

"When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from
the inception of the religion of the Arabian (Muhammad) and the
overthrow of the kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of
My religion, a descendant of the Iranian kings (?) will be raised up as
a Prophet."--- ZOROASTER- Dinkird

Here is the Denkard/Denkart:

//www.avesta.org/denkard/denkard.htm

Find me your passage in it. There is no such passage. Besides the Denkard/Denkart is a late Zoroastrian text from the tenth century during the Islamic period. It is not scripture in the same way that the Gathas are and it is not part of the Avesta (i.e. Yasna, Visperad, Vendidad, Siroza, etc). Denkard/Denkart is a late Zoroastrian encyclopedia, and that is all.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Dariush the Ignorant

You're a piece of work.  People should have rights based on how much their religion or ethnicity has contributed?  And how do you go about measuring this, and what rights should be taken away?  Should the right to worship be taken away?  What about the right to live, which is taken away all the time?

As for the Jewish contributions you can start with the Dr. Sapir hospital and work your way backwards because that's the direction your mind seems to be going.

The Baha'i misuse of the Baghavad Gita

Hindu Prophecies

"Whenever there is decay of righteousness... and there is exaltation of unrighteousness, 
then I Myself come forth... for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing
righteousness, I am born from age to age." ---

KRISHNA- Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse

This passage in the Baghavad Gita is not strictly a prophecy in the way Baha'is are opportunistically attempting to claim it for themselves. I defy the Baha'is to put this passage in front of any Vashnavite Hindu and claim it fulfills some prophecy about the Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri. This passage is part of the discourse Krishna offers Arjuna on the battle field as the later is about to decimate his relatives standing on the opposite side of the field whom he has gone to war with. It is also articulating a Hindu Vashnavite doctrine about the perpetual incarnations of the God Vishnu, in this case Krishna. In India there have been endless Gurus who have claimed to be incarnations of Vishnu, the most notable recent claimant being the Hare Krishna founder A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

That said, if this passage was to be taken literally, in no way does Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri fulfill it. Evil-doers exist in the world today as they did in the time of Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri. The world is as unjust a place as it has ever been. So what exactly is Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri said to fulfill with this prophecy if this is the case?

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

The whole point is

NOONE should be killed or persecuted for their beliefs. ANYWHERE. No religion is perfect and no one religion suits everybody. And there should not be any ethnic cleansing, forcing Bahais or others out of their country. Some of the comments here are very disturbing.

You asked, if minorities

You asked, if minorities should have the same rights as Muslims?

I say, they should if they have contributed to the society and no, if they haven't. However, the basic rights are for everyone.

In case of other minorities, they have contributed to certain extend, but I cannot find any contribution from the Jewish community other than robbing Iran, whining and helping and supporting Israel.  Unless you can name some poets, writers, scientists, any school or hospital and etc that they dedicated to the society.  you can go as far back in time as you like.

Dear Dariush A, Are You Sure?.

Dear Dariush A,

 I apologize for this lengthy response. 

You said “I believe none claimed a prophesy and they were spiritual figures or leaders.” 

Are You Sure? Certain?

You are perhaps not cognisant of the fact that there are and have been Buddhists, Hindus and Zoroastrians ,Jews, Christians and Moslems  who have come to accept Baha'u'llah as the fulfillment of their long held beliefs in the coming of a new Messenger for a new age of humanity. It is such diversity and unity that makes up the Bahai World community. 

Its good to see you digging beneath the surface, but you need to dig even deeper to see the whole picture.

Some spend a life time to satisfy their hunger, so we must plod on, without preconceived notions, otherwise we are all are wasting your time.

This is what I have figured out so far... my response being limited to your statement that you "believe none "Zoroaster, Buddah, Krishna) claimed a prophesy and they were spiritual figures or leaders".

Each of the world's major religions contain Messianic prophecies. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.

Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "World-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a bearded white man from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity. Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great 'religion restoring', 'world uniting', 'peace bringing' Messiah.

For centuries, people from all over the world have been hoping and praying that they will be the generation which will witness the appearance of their Promised One. Not many have considered the possibility that these prophecies from the various religions might actually all be foretelling the exact same event.

 Baha'is believe that in the middle of the 19th century these prophecies actually were fulfilled in Iran, and that the Promised One truly did appear.

Baha'u'llah, the Prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith, claims to be the Promised One whose coming was explicitly foretold, not only in the Old and the New Testaments.... but also in the prophecies of the Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Islamic and other religions.

If Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One then His appearance is one of the greatest events of human history. Are Baha'u'llah's claim true? How can we know for certain? look at some of the proofs and prophecies... and then decide for yourself.

Here are some excerpts from links that you can verify and study in more depth in relation to Prophecies to a coming age of fulfilment.

Perhaps you can reconsider your statement: 

" Zoroastrianism, Buddha and Krishna were prior to Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. 

"I believe none claimed a prophesy and they were spiritual figures or leaders." 

 Zoroastrian Prophecies

//bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/zoroaste.htm

A statement attributed to one of the Zoroastrian Scriptures contains one of the most explicit prophecies identifying the TIME when this "World-renovator" will appear.

"When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from the inception of the religion of the Arabian (Muhammad) and the overthrow of the kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of My religion, a descendant of the Iranian kings (?) will be raised up as a Prophet."--- ZOROASTER- Dinkird

The Zoroastrian Scriptures, like those of the other world religions, contain Messianic Prophecies foretelling the future appearance of a "redeemer".

"He shall be the victorious Benefactor (Saoshyant) by name and World-renovator [Astavat-ereta] by name. He is Benefactor because he will benefit the entire physical world; he is World- renovator because he will establish the physical living existence indestructible. He will oppose the evil of the progeny of the biped and withstand the enmity produced by the faithful."--- Zoroastrianism- Avesta, Farvardin Yast 13.129

Here is a well known Prophecy of The Buddha, when He made it clear that another "Buddha " will arise.

"He made it clear that He was about to pass away, and when [His cousin and foremost disciple] Ananda became disconsolate, Buddha consoled him and said:

'Have I not formerly declared to you that it is in the very nature of all things near and dear to us, to pass away? O Ananda, seeing that whatever is brought into being contains within itself the inherent necessity of dissolution, how can it be that such a being (as the visible Siddhartha) should not be dissolved?'

He informed Ananda that in another three months He would pass away. Ananda, suppressing his tears, said to the Blessed One:

'Who shall teach us when Thou art gone?'

And the Blessed One replied:

...'I am not the first Buddha Who came upon this earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a Master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you. He will preach to you His religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal, in spirit and in the letter. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure, such as I now proclaim.' His disciples will number many thousands, while Mine number many hundreds.'

please see

 //bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/buddha.htm

Hindu Prophecies

"Whenever there is decay of righteousness... and there is exaltation of unrighteousness, 
then I Myself come forth... for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing
righteousness, I am born from age to age." ---

KRISHNA- Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse

//bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/

Another more recent Iranian prophet than Mani

فضل الله استرآبادی

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Farah Rusta is right

The Baha'is never had it so good like they had it under the Pahlavis. This is fact. Yet in public these days officially the mouthpieces of the Haifan Baha'i organization bad-mouth the Pahlavis and try to associate themselves more with the secular republican wing of the opposition and the legacy of Mossadeq. This is duplicity, but a duplicity very typical of the opportunism of this community's leadership even under the Pahlavis.

From August 1953 to February 1979 the UHJ in Haifa and the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Iran were dogged supporters of the Pahlavis and the monarchy. Habib Sabet was even deputized as the UHJ's own official rep to offer a gift to the Shah on the occasion of the 1968 coronation at which he attended. I have the official letter and have posted it on IC before. Yet immediately when Ahriman and his forces came to power in February '79, the National Spiritual Assembly of Iran sent a congratulatory letter to Ahriman complaining in it about how bad they had had it under the Shah and how they were happy that Iran was now free of the Pahlavis and the monarchy.

This sort of pattern of constant duplicity and historical revisionism in light of changing circumstances is a typical feature of how the Baha'i establishment has dealt with political power. They were also this way with Idi Amin and Augusto Pinochet who they once hailed and then later condemned even though they had  jumped into bed with.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Why teh Bahais haven't left Iran

R2-D2 said:

"In my personal opinion, I believe that the Bahai community in Iran would
have been much better off had they left Iran altogether when this
brutal and barbaric regime came into power - I know that this is easier
said than done - But with the supportive networks that the Bahais have
outside of Iran, this would probably have been achievable"

Interesting point. I agree that the Bahai leadership probably could arrange something like the Falasha airlift - who knows, maybe they have a contingency plan developed with Israeli government assistance should it become necessary. May also explain why they keep so quite about the Palestinian injustice.

In the meantime, however, the Bahai leadership has actively discouraged Bahais from leaving Iran - even suspending people from the community who do.  Why?

It fits in with how the leadership sees the future of the Bahai Faith. Their focus is also entirely on "teaching" - that is encouraging non-Bahais to convert. They believe that the Islamic regime will eventually collapse and a post-Islamic Iran will see large scale conversion of Muslims. In fact, they see Iran as their best candidate for converts in the medium term future.

They have even tried setting the group by targeting expat Iranian communties in North America and a couple of years ago with an audacious teaching team they sent into Iran from Britain.

Their plan would fall apart if you had mass emigration of Bahais from Iran. They want to keep as many there as possible, so that when the opportunity presents itself they have a large enough base of Bahais who lived through the regime and so are connected to the local population.

All the talk about potential genocide is just phony - if they ever believed it for a moment, they wouldn't act in the way they do. Given the conversion of the IRI government from an Islamic one to a military one - now actively opposed by many clerics - they are probably right: why would they care about a minority who poses no political threat (unlike plenty of other groups) and whose persecution no longer excites their base support group.

Ehsan Yarshater is not a Bahai

In fact he was excommunicated in the 1930s by the Bahai leader Shoghi Effendi Rabbani. No, Baha'is have not produced some of the greatest scholars who have contributed to Iranian society. That would be the Bayani (Azali Babi) community of Iran (whom the Baha'is have persecuted), not the Baha'is.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Alborz' deliberate historical oversights

"While there may be some Babis in Iran, I am now aware of the existence of a Babi community and therefore not able to associate a "struggle for freedom" to any period in the 20th century or even today."

Sadiqa Dawlatabadi

The Bayani community of Iran

Yahya Dawlatabadi

Prime Minister Mohammad-Ali Foroughi

Ali Akbar Dehkhoda

Allameh Mohammad Qazvini

Can you Baha'is produce any figures comparable?

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

not the same

I do not think Farah Rusta is the same as Farah Pahlavi.  Farah Diba Pahlavi has more sense.  She is also not a rude person.

I do think we should get back on the main subject of the article. 

Do we believe that Bahais or any other religious minority have every right as moslems, jews and zoroastrians as long as they are good citizens of Iran?    Hasn't Iran produced some of the greatest scholars who have contributed to Iranian society and culture at large? Many names come to mind.  Dr. Ehsan Yarshater is one.

Farah is not defending

Farah is not defending Baha'is. She is defending Pahlavi.  Of course, that is when the subject is a bit in her favor.  When it comes to their wrong doings, she tries to rewrite the history and if that doesn't help she sneaks away for a while and waits for a more suitable subject and blog.

In defense of Farah Rusta

(Not that she needs my defense!)

She represents a point of view, and she is articulate, and informed.

You and I may not like her view, but she presents her position well, unlike many here, who just use the forum to vent.

Yours,

Ali P.

Here is another example.

Here is another example. "Mani" who claimed to be a prophet.  Very similar to Baha'ullah. I think they both were spiritual men. It is understandable for one to become so spiritual that he/she thinks they are messenger of God or God. However, in Baha'ullah, due to many contradictions, i see some other signs as well. 

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)

Nadeem Khan, please pause and consider...

...that the influence of Baha'is is measureable only by their ability to represent the plight of their community in Iran.  No more, no less.  

Furthermore they do so by informing the world community of what has and is happening - NOT by condemning the government of Iran.  "Condemnation" is not in their vocabulary - so I suggest that you consider a different approach to gauging their stance on many of the burning issuse in the world.

Additionally, the Baha'is are required in principle and by deeds to invest their resources in the transformation of the world through community building and they are explicitly prohibited from involvement in any activity which is divisive.  Can you consider this as an option?

Here is some material for your reference as to the root of these persecutions entitled 'Rishehay Baha'i Setizi".  These are audio files.

//www.megaupload.com/?d=CQ2W1Y60

//www.megaupload.com/?d=3TPOFRJO

//www.megaupload.com/?d=0NGK2FUJ

//www.megaupload.com/?d=OI32I4LY

 Alborz

Dariush, I find your postings very informative. Thanks

for sharing your knowledge with us. I have no acadamic knowledge of bahaii and i am trying to learn something here.

As for Rusta, as I have said many times before, her name RUSTA (DAAHAAT) says it all. i totally agree with your flushing it out. she is not worthy of response, more so I don't want to be cut off again this soon, so i won't say more about how i feel about her!

Religion, religion, how you have dome many good, yet so many killings and divisions! obama

Dear Fariba Amini

Farah Rusta is no one other that Farah Pahlavi. She didn't say or do anything positive then, nor is she now.  We know where her comments are coming from and we flush them.

faryarm

Baha'ullah wrote in the Gems of Divine Mysteries that those who perceive distinctions and differences between the Manifestations of God, will notice the underlying unity of the Manifestations once they continue on their spiritual path.[13] Baha'ullah in several passages goes so far as to say that denial of one Manifestation is equivalent to denial of all of them. `Abdul-Bahá said that a Baha'i will choose death over denial of any of the great Prophets, whether Moses, Muhammad or Christ.[14]

As you can see,in the above statement by Baha'ullah. He himself admits to the true divine prophecy of Moses, Jesus and Mohammad, to the point that he is willing to die than deny. You can see he has not mentioned Ahura Mazda,Buddha,Krishna or any others as such. Meaning Baha'ullah didn't considered them as prophets and neither should he himself. 

Was Baha'ullah a spiritual leader and interpreter of the divine religions? Yes, he was. So are many clergymen. Was he a scholar and a writer? Yes, he was. So are many other scholars and writers. I see a line that separates a prophecy from manifestation that Baha'is are trying to erase.

That is why he wrote,  those who perceive distinctions and differences between the Manifestations of God, will notice the underlying unity of the Manifestations once they continue on their spiritual path.[13]

I see the differences and the underlying unity and I also see a false prophecy.

You asked what mistakes? I said that before. Claiming to be Imam Mahdi on top of the mistake of claiming to be a prophet. which in a way like denying Quran and Baha'ullah himself wrote, he would rather to die than deny. A contradiction in his words and actions.

Bahais

Thanks for all the comments. I do think this is a very important issue for all of us and we must continue the discussion.  Ethnic and religious minorities of Iran must have the same rights under a democratic Iran.  Just because I do not like a certain ideology or do not share the same faith, I do not have the right to violate the rights of others.  You can disagree and even criticize but no one has the right to arrrest, torture and kill under the pretext of Islam or any other religion.   Under the Shah, Bahais enjoyed relative freedom but let's never forget that anyone having a minute leftist tendency was jailed.  

The article in Persian was published in a journal in Germany called Baran. I do not think it is available online though I know that the entire text (in English) will appear in the journal of Bahai Studies.   What makes this article interesting it is that it links some of  those involved in the crime with some of the IRI clergy.

As for Mosaddeq or the National Front siding with Fedayeen it is too preposterous for words. I guess, Farah R. has to say something stupid everytime just to show her dislike of me.    Fedayeen e-Islam shot Dr. Fatemi in the abdomen at the graveside of journalist Mohammad Masoud. 

I saw this article for the first time and had not known about the murder of Dr. Berjis. What great sin I have committed!  

Can't this FR stop her attitude and comments once and for all and write something worth reading for all of us instead of always slandering either me, my father, Mosaddeq and or Jebeh Melli?

FA

"The Bahais are also

"The Bahais are also branded as Zionists. One reason for this is that Mirza Hossein Ali Nouri, aka Bahaollah, who was forced to leave Iran, ended up in Ottoman Iraq and by way of Istanbul went to Palestine where he died in 1892 in the city of Akko, now in Israel."

No, I don't think this to be the reason for persecution.

I think baha'is are hated in Iran because they support Israel. They support its stand on palestine. Israel kills innocent palestinian boys, oppress women and baha'is are not et al interested in condemning Israel. It is said Baha'is are very much influential in the United Nations. Why don't they condemn the Israeli attitude towards the palestinian people in UN? This is not a good policy to keep quiet when 'our firends' break laws. Israel is a friend of Baha'is this is a known fact to the Iranians and they don't want to take chance with them. So they are being watched.

Let us condemn all those who persecute in the name of Religion and State.

Be it then Iran or Israel.

Baha'is are you ready to condemn the human rights violations by Israel?

Under the Pahlavis: Bahais never had it so good

First I must say I was disappointed (but not surprised) to see that Ms Amini has only "recently discovered" the story of the late Doctor Berjis and his barbaric murder in the hands of Fadaeeyan Islam nearly 68 years ago. The case of Dr Berjis's murder was the most prominent and at the same time the most disturbing example of collaboration between an intimidated judicial system, a collusive alliance between the Kashani-Mossadegh supporters against Razmara and a compromising government that was forced to accept a blatant break down in the justice system.  

A book published last year titled "Hundred and Sixty Years of Struggle Against the Bahai Faith" authored by Freydun Vahman gives a detailed account of the murder of Dr Berjis and the long judicial process that followed. Although Vahman's book, himself a Bahai scholar, is not at times free from bias and  often judgemental, it is generally well researched and documented. The murderers whose cases were  brought to court several years after the murder were defended by two prominent lawyers, Arsalan Khalatbari and Sadegh Sarmad (both known for their support for Mossdegh). Also the courtroom was filled with the supporters f Kashani and Mossadegh who were there to make sure that the defendants were acquitted and in doing so defeat Razmara. Well, eventually they succeeded! Let us also remember that Jebeh Melli chose to remain silent on the issue.

But back to the Bahais under the reign of the Pahlavis. There are many rights within the society that we assumes they are naturally ours until they are taken away from us. I want to ask our Bahai readers here to tell us in all honesty what  is the ratio of the rights that they were enjoying under the Pahlavis to the  rights they enjoy  under the IRI? Just a single estimate please to give us have an idea of  the scale?  If you have difficulty in reaching a figure then I may be able to help you.

Thank you.

FR

Ms. Fariba Amini

Thank you very much for a well written article.

Dear Dariush,

Zoroaster, Buddah, Krishna and others are called "Manifestations of God" as far as Bahai's are concerned. Also when you claim that this regime has been worse to Muslim than they have been to Bahais you are probably comparing an ordinary Bahai who is not envolved with any kind of policts and does not commit any act of violence with a muslim who is trying to bring down the govermnet, apples and oranges.

Fariba Amini

You wrote, IRI is merciless to Bahai's.

Compared to the Muslims, they have been merciful to Bahai's.

And look who is whining, The Jews.