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Pagan Roots of Allah
.JPG "Pagan Roots of Allah")
25-Sep-2012
In spite of the prevalent mainstream description of Allah, there continues to exist a somewhat controversial of Islam, put forth by some scholars and a number of Christian groups [1][2][3], in which it is claimed that the Islamic deity Allah has pre-Islamic pagan roots stemming from local mythology. According to this "popular"[4] view, the chief deity of pre-Islamic Mecca "was the moon-god called al-ilah (meaning the god or the idol), which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times".[5]
One line of this argument has been publicized in recent times by the author/pastor Robert Morey in his book ''The moon-god Allah in the archeology of the Middle East''. Morey, who cites among other references a 1950s era archeological excavation in Hazor, Israel, argues that the same name of God of Islam, Arabic ''Allah'', was an epithet of Hubal in pre-Islamic Mecca.
As such, the lunar calendar is also claimed to be a result of this origination.[6-7] Islamic scholars have of course rejected these claims,[8] some even calling them "insulting".[9] And there certainly have been valid points to be made in this regard. For example, while the crecent symbol seen in flags and other Islamic emblems have claimed to be a result of the Moon-God origin of Islam's deity by some sources[10-13], muslim scholars contend that The Crescent and Star did not become symbols to the Muslims until the 12th century when "it was adopted by the Turks", 700 years after the birth of Islam.[14]
Nevertheless, "Allah" was known to pre-Islamic Arabia as it was one of the Meccan deities.[15-16] Mohammed's father (Abd-allah), for example, had Allah as part of his name.[17] Arthur Jeffrey for example states[18]:
"The name Allah, as the Quran itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Arabia".
Wellhausen also viewed "Allah (al-ilah, the god)" to be "a form of abstraction" originating from Mecca's local gods[19], and other scholars such as Frederick Victor Winnett also mention Allah and Allat to have roots in Moon and Sun deities.[20]
The Moon-God deity of pre-Islam is also not without precedence[21], as has been documented by scholars such as Green et al.[22] Indeed, lunar deities have been well documented in pre-Islamic urban centers such as Harran, Sumer, Babylon, and Ur, which served as "the chief seat of the lunar deity known as Nannar or Sin."[23] As such, it is argued that "Allah" has it's origins in the Sumerian God ''Ilah'':
"Allah [al-ilah] himself was ancient - a thousand years before Mohammed the Persians wrote 'Allah is exalted' - but he was only one of many deities."[24]
Still, some authors have contended that the Islamic deity "is derived from Semitic El, and originally applied to the moon; [which] seems to have been preceded by Ilmaqah, the moon god."[25] Others have made the direct connection between the two:
"The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God, but early in Arabian history the name became a general term for god, and it was this name that the Hebrews used prominently in their personal names, such as Emanuel, Israel, etc., rather than the Bapal of the northern semites proper, which was the Sun. Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allâh, the Supreme Being."[26]
and Alfred Guillaume has noted that Ilah was a name applied to the moon-god among some Pre-Islamic Arabian tribes, and that certain scholars believe that Ilah in pre-Islamic Arabia was a title of the moon god:
"The oldest name for God used in the Semitic world consists of but two letters, the consonant 'l' preceded by a smooth breathing, which was pronounced 'Il' in ancient Babylonia, 'El' in ancient Israel. The relation of this name, which in Babylonia and Assyria became a generic term simply meaning ‘god’, to the Arabian Ilah familiar to us in the form Allah, which is compounded of al, the definite article, and Ilah by eliding the vowel ‘i’, is not clear. Some scholars trace the name to the South Arabian Ilah, a title of the Moon god, but this is a matter of antiquarian interest...it is clear from Nabataean and other inscriptions that Allah meant 'the god'."[27]
and John Gray, the Semitic linguist of the University of Aberdeen[28], likewise notes that Il was a South Arabian moon god.[29]
Then, as mentioned above, there comes the connection of Allah and Hubal the Moon God, which before Islam, was the high god of the Kaaba, and the supreme lunar deity.[30-31] This connection was made in recent times by a Christian pastor by the name Robert Morey, who claims that the God in Islam is in origin the moon god Hubal[32]. However, Ringgren and Strom had earlier hypothesized that Allah and Hubal may in fact have been identical gods[33], and Julius Wellhausen considered Hubal to be an ancient name for Allah[34-36]. Sergio Noja also has stated Hubal to be the ancient correspondent of Allah, based solely on linguistic arguments.[37]
Wellhausen et al's suggestion are thought to be arising because of the prominence of Hubal in the "House of Allah", as is evidenced in an excerpt from historian Ibn Ishaq, which cites Muhammad's grandfather "standing by Hubal praying to Allah".[38] In this regard, W.M. Watts who names Allah as one of many pagan God's of Mecca[39] writes:
"The use of the phrase “the Lord of this House” makes it likely that those Meccans who believed in Allah as a high god – and they may have been numerous – regarded the Ka’ba as his shrine, even though there were images of other gods in it. There are stories in the Sira of pagan Meccans praying to Allah while standing beside the image of Hubal."
David Samuel Margoliouth, while terming Wellhausen's ideas as merely "hypothetical", explains[40]:
"Between Hubal, the god whose image was inside the Ka‘bah, and Allah ("the God"), of whom much will be heard, there was perhaps some connection."
Some authors such as Occhigrosso have even gone so far as to maintain that the Black Stone of the Kaaba was connected to the worship of Hubal.[41] And Patricia Crone, professor of Islamic history at Princeton University, while discussing aspects of Arabian litholatry, also notes the connection between Allah and the other pagan gods, and the black stone housed in the Kaabah[42]:
"If we assume that bayt and ka’ba alike originally referred to the Meccan stone rather than the building around it, then the lord of the Meccan house was a pagan Allah worshipped in conjunction with a female consort such as al-’Uzza and/or other “daughters of God.” This would give us a genuinely pagan deity for Quraysh and at the same time explain their devotion to goddesses."
And this is where things get interesting, as we are led to The Satanic Verses connection. Many scholars such as Hofner[43], F.E.Peters[44] and others have written of "the daughters of Allah" as pre-Islamic deities venerated by Arabia.[45-47] These daughters are the goddesses named al-lat, al-manat, and al-uzza.[48] These are the same three goddesses that were later mentioned in the infamous Satanic Verses of the Koran (verses 19 and 20 of al-Surat al-Najm).[49][50] David Bukay and some other writers have stated that these three are indeed the daughters of Allah the Moon-God with the Sun-God.[51]
In conclusion, it must be re-emphasized that Islamic groups have called the Moon-God view a "lie"[52], citing the the 37th verse of the Surah al-Fusillat as proof against the Moon-God claim[53]:
"And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship".
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), for example, even describes the Moon-God theory of Allah, as evangelical "fantasies" that are "perpetuated in their comic books".[54]
However, the multiple connections stated by various authors, historians, and scholars during the past 100 years or so (some of which have been mentioned in this article), if nothing else, call for a more thorough examination of the pagan sources of Islamic belief. Perhaps, not unsimilar to the all too familiar account of the pagan roots of Noah's flood found in Gilgamesh, or the curious parallels between Jesus and Horus.[55]
With all the ruckus and violence going around in the muslim world merely because of an obscure home-made video, it is only fair to say that if muslims wish their "freedom of speech" in questioning historical events such as the holocaust to be respected, then they must also give up immunity to the same exact line of scrunity. In the 21st century, everything and anything can be questioned, from the pagan roots of Allah, to even the existence of Muhammad himself. And this is something that the Islamic world must become accustomed to, if it is willing to progress out of the dark shadows of the 7th century and into the third millenium. This is the era of reason and rationality, and in this day and age, as Descartes put it so succinctly, the only thing that cannot be doubted is the ability to doubt itself.[56]
References
[4]: "One popular notion is that Allah originally was the name of a moon god originally worshiped in Arabia at the time of Muhammad." See: Theology in the Context of World Christianity: How the Global Church Is Influencing the Way We Think about and Discuss Theology. Timothy C. Tennent. Zondervan, 2009. ISBN 0310298482
[6]: A history of pagan Europe. Prudence Jones, Nigel Pennick. Psychology Press, 1995. ISBN 0-415-09136-5 p.77
[7]: Moon-o-theism, Volume II: Religion of a War and Moon God Prophet. Yoel Natan, 2006. ISBN 1439297177 pp.312
[10]: A history of pagan Europe. Prudence Jones, Nigel Pennick. Psychology Press, 1995. ISBN 0-415-09136-5 p.77
[11]: Islam Revealed. Montell Jackson. Xulon Press, 2003. ISBN 1591608694 pp.15
[12]: Islam: a raging storm. Shelton L. Smith. Sword of the Lord Publishers, 2002. ISBN 087398417X pp.25
[13]: The Cult of the Moon God: Exploding the Myths of Islam and Discovering the Truths of God. Brian Wilson. WinePress Publishing, 2011. ISBN 1414119976 pp.82
[15]: L. Gardet, Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. B. Lewis, C. Pellat and J. Schacht, Vol. 1, pp. 406
[16]: Studies on Islam. Merlin L. Swartz. University Press, 1981. ISBN 0195027167 pp.12
[18]: A. Jeffrey, Islam: Mohammed and His Religion, Liberal Arts Press. 1958. ASIN: B000IXMTE4 pp. 85
[19]: Studies on Islam. Merlin L. Swartz. University Press, 1981. ISBN 0195027167 pp.12
[20]: Zwemmer, (Editor). The Daughters of Allah, by Frederick Victor Winnett, MWJ, Vol. XXX, 1940, pg. 120-125
[21]: Time at Emar: the cultic calendar and the rituals from the diviner's archive. Volume 11 of Mesopotamian civilizations. Daniel E. Fleming. Eisenbrauns. 2000. ISBN 1575060442 pp.157
[22]: The city of the Moon god: religious traditions of Harran. Volume 114 of Religions in the Graeco-Roman world. Tamara M. Green. BRILL, 1992. ISBN 9004095136
[23]: Myths of Babylonia and Assyria. Donald A. Mackenzie. Kessinger Publishing, LLC. ISBN 1162734272. 2010. pp.50-51
[24]: The Loom of History''. Herbert J. Muller. Oxford University Press. 1966. ISBN 0195004329. pp.264
[25]: E. Sykes, Everyman's Dictionary of Non-Classical Mythology, E P Dutton Publishers. January 2000. ISBN 052509217X pp. 7
[26]: Southern Arabia, Carleton S. Coon, Washington, D.C. Smithsonian, 1944, p.399
[27]: Alfred Guillaume. ''Islam''. Penguin 1990 ISBN 0140135553 pp.7
[29]: J. Gray, The Legacy of Canaan: The Ras Shamra Texts and their Relevance to the Old Testament, Supplement to Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 5 (1957), p. 123
[30]: F. Hommel, First Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. M.T. Houtsma, T.W. Arnold, R. Basset, and R. Hartmann, Vol. 1, pp. 379-380
[31]: C. Glassé, The New Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 185
[32]: The moon-god Allah in the archeology of the Middle East. Newport, PA : Research and Education Foundation, 1994
[33]: Religions of mankind today & yesterday. Helmer Ringgren, Åke V. Ström. Oliver & Boyd, 1967 pp.178.
[34]: J. Wellhausen, Reste Arabischen Heidenthums. pp.75
[35]: The idea of idolatry and the emergence of Islam: from polemic to history. Cambridge studies in Islamic civilization. Gerald R. Hawting. Cambridge University Press, 1999. ISBN 0521651654 pp.112
[36]: Meccan trade and the rise of Islam, Patricia Crone, Gorgias Press LLC, 2004, ISBN 1593331029 pp.185-195
[37]: S. Noja, ''Hubal = Allah'', Rendiconti: Instituto Lombardo Accademia Di Scienze E Lettere, 1994, Volume 128, pp. 283-295.
[38]: The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, trans. A. Guillaume, pp. 66-68
[39]: W.M. Watt, Muhammad’s Mecca. Edinburgh University Press. 1988. ISBN 0852245653 pp.39
[40]: D. S. Margoliouth, Mohammed And The Rise Of Islam, 1905, p. 19
[41]: P. Occhigrosso, The Joy of Sects, ISBN 0385425651 p. 398
[42]: Patricia Crone, Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam. Gorgias Press LLC. 2004. ISBN-10: 1593331029 pp.192-193
[43]: Maria Höfner, Kurt Rudolph et al. Die Religionen Altsyriens, Altarabiens und der Mandäer. Berlin. 1970. pp.361-367
[44]: Jesus and Muhammad: Parallel Tracks, Parallel Lives. F. E. Peters. Oxford University Press, 2010. ISBN 0199747466 pp.113
[45]: Struggles of gods: papers of the Groningen Work Group for the Study of the History of Religions. Religion and reason. Volume 31 of Trends in Linguistic. Hans Gerhard Kippenberg, H. J. W. Drijvers, Y. Kuiper. Walter de Gruyter, 1984. ISBN 9027934606 pp.262
[46]: R.R. Landau, Islam and the Arabs. London. G. Allen and Unwin, 1958 pp. 13
[47]: A.G. Lundin, Die Arabischen Göttinnen Ruda und al-Uzza", Al-Hudhud: Festschrift Maria Höfner zum 80. Geburtstag, Ed. R.G. Stiegner, pp. 211-218
[48]: Meet the Arab. John Van Ess. The John Day Company, 1943 pp.29
[49]: A history of pagan Europe. Prudence Jones, Nigel Pennick. Psychology Press, 1995. ISBN 0-415-09136-5 p.77
[51]: From Muhammad to Bin Laden. David Bukay. Transaction Publishers, 2008. ISBN 0765803909 pp.38
[56]: Roger Scruton. Modern Philosophy: An Introduction and Survey. London: Penguin Books, 1994.
[57]: Myths of Babylonia and Assyria. Donald A. Mackenzie. Kessinger Publishing, LLC. ISBN 1162734272. 2010. pp.50-51
[58]: Cylinder of Hash-Hamer, The British Museum. (Link)
[59]: See linked discussion
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So what?
by rrrezz on Tue Nov 06, 2012 06:56 AM PSTThe word "Allah" existed before Islam, for example it was used (or was going to be used) by the Meccans in the truce of "Hudaibia" between them and Muslims. Ilah simply means deity, god, and Allah means "the Ilah", the God.
But relating Ilah to moon is new to me. But then, so what? It sounds like you are talking about a real person,object or event, etc. like Jesus or the authenticity of a particular Michael Angelo statute. God is a concept and Allah is a word/name.
For example some people argue that the Biblical story of Noah's flood is taken from Gilgemash which in turn is inspired by the end of the ice age in the area around the Black sea. But in the end the religious aspect of Noah's story is the message it conveys.
To each his own.
by alimostofi on Sat Sep 29, 2012 03:06 PM PDTJ: you have only been here barely a year. How many articles and comments have you posted. Just mind your position.
@alimostofi
FB: astrologer.alimostofi
I am relieved! For a minute
by jirandoust on Sat Sep 29, 2012 03:03 PM PDTI am relieved! For a minute I thought I insulted your sensitive astrological feelings again. You were just puling my leg. Thanks GOD for that! You ARE the clever one AM, mut watch for you from now on :)
Facetious
by alimostofi on Sat Sep 29, 2012 02:43 PM PDTJ: The word Pagan means farmers belief system which relates to the Mithraic beliefs and Druids in UK.
Please don't be facetious about Astrology or Pagan. Both are the same. What you want to say if you want to say it at all is to use phrases like pre-Semetic religious beliefs.
And yes I was pulling your leg to see if you were going to make mockery of micropalaeontology as well as Astrology. But you didn't so I will let you off.
@alimostofi
FB: astrologer.alimostofi
Don't See the Connection
by jirandoust on Sat Sep 29, 2012 02:34 PM PDTbetween astrology and Micropalaeontology, alimostofi or am I missing your point?
Sorry, I do not submit to Judeo-Christian belief either. All religions have pegan roots. I can see the connection between peganism and astrology though, mainly as a way of defining or understanding unknown natural phenomena. Old Testament is full of stories to do just that.
These are my personal belief based on researches I have done on religion. You can agree or dismiss them all. I will not accuse you of passing judgement if you dismiss them, so neither should you!
Onmy 12th birthday my mom
by iranazad7 on Sat Sep 29, 2012 06:28 PM PDTOn
my 12th birthday my mom said:
“your are grown up now, no
more imaginary friends”
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9L16G5ev2c
Don't judge lest you be judged (Luke 6:37)
by alimostofi on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:25 AM PDTJ: you said "I don't know anything about their "knowledge" in astrology. Then again, what is astrology? Superstition based on lining up of stars? (No offense alimostofi)."
While you are passing judgement. What do you think of Micropalaeontology?
As the Bible says:
Don't judge lest you be judged (Luke 6:37)
@alimostofi
FB: astrologer.alimostofi
latina
by Fesenjoon2 on Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:57 AM PDTI havent. If it turns out to be good, let me know.
I have Christopher Hitchens' "God is not Great" on my reading list.
God a revelation
by Latina on Sat Sep 29, 2012 08:22 AM PDTQuestion, has anyone here read or know anything about Deepak Chopra's book God a revelation? I am thinking of reading it but wanted some opinions about the book.
Thank you
Even a hard core atheist
by Rea on Thu Sep 27, 2012 09:16 PM PDT.... would take pleasure reading comments here.
Highly educational, will read again, it's worth it.
Jirandoust
by Fesenjoon2 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 07:50 PM PDTI agree.
............
by Latina on Thu Sep 27, 2012 07:35 PM PDTInteresting
BTW, Fessenjoon
by jirandoust on Thu Sep 27, 2012 06:36 PM PDTYour blog is great. We need a lot more articles like yours on this site!
Also a few words on Petra:
Petra is clearly a classical Roman architecture. That means it was designed and built by Romans. There is nothing Arab or even Middle Eastern about it. I am not sure why Jordanians are so proud of this piece of architecture. Yes, it is a fine classical Roman temple, and yes it is carved inside of a mountain, but it is still Roman not Arab or Jordanian.
As for Arabs interaction with Romans, yes there was some thru trades. But I don't believe went any furthe than that. That god fosaken piece of desert was so desolate that neither Romans nor Persians wanted to have anything to do with it. And that turned out to be their biggest mistake.
AO, great comments, thanks!
Fesenjoon
by jirandoust on Thu Sep 27, 2012 06:06 PM PDTCivilized Masepotamians? Sure, no argument there. But you know as well as I do Mesepotamians were not Arabs. So to call Arabs of the 7th century (and by Arabs I mean those of the Arabian Peninsula) highly civilized or advanced, I find that very hard to believe. Arabs were mostly beduins (primitive) people roaming the vast Arabian desert in search of food and water. They were also road bandits by default (Something that came in real handy when Mohammad lived in Medina) who would kill at the drop of a hat, so to speak. Sure there were small pockets of urban areas with mud dewellings such as Mecca and Medina. But that's no proof of their "advancement". I don't know anything about their "knowledge" in astrology. Then again, what is astrology? Superstition based on lining up of stars? (No offense alimostofi).
Meccans were traders, true. But that's all they were. They were not producers. They never were (They still are not. They are just big consumers). They were backward desert dewllers which their harsh environment had turned them into the savages they were (this also came in handy when the time came to invade persia). It is impossible that such people could come up with a grandiose idea of a brand new monotheistic religion. No doubt Mohammad at the beginning of his "movement" just tried to assert himself to Meccan as messenger of Al-Ilah. The revelation of the so called Satanic Verses to him from Al-Ilah himself is one proof that the whole thing just started as a power struggle between Mohammad and his own tribe Quraish and other movers and shakers of Mecca. It didn't turn into a full blast religion until a few years later when Mohammad met Salman in Medina. And the rest, as the saying goes, is history...or not!
What Salman Parsi's role was in creation of Islam is far more profound than any historian has ever given him credit for. This certainly deserves historians closer attention/investigation, something that has never been done before, unfortunately!
Post this for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt!
by Immortal Guard on Thu Sep 27, 2012 05:35 PM PDTPost this for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt!
I finally got the chance to give this a proper read
by Anonymous Observer on Fri Sep 28, 2012 01:07 PM PDTI am no theologist, and have only read a few books on the subject--while I was in college a few years back. My understanding of the pre-Islam Bedouin Arab mythology is that at some level, they used idols as a "connection" or a "bridge" to various highly exalted dieties. In that context, it makes sense to pray to "Allah," the Supreme Diety, while standing next to Hubal. in terms of the etymology of the word "Allah" I have no doubt that it had pagan origins, just like much of Islam's rituals, or the religion itself.
Hajj, for example, has a complete pagan origin. The success of Mecca as a trading hub was partly due to its location as the "worship center" of the idol worshipping tribes. They had a festival every year where people came from all across the land and celebrated their dieties. They sacrificed animals (sound familiar?) and circled around Ka'aba. The circling, if I recall correctly, had to do with the orbit of the planets around the sun (where in those days, they only knew of seven planets, which matched the mythological number of 7, and the 7 rounds around Ka'aba). That custom may have even had roots in Egyptian mythology (like much of Judaism incidentally).
There are even hadith that confirm the pagan origins of Hajj rituals:
"We used to consider (i.e. going around) them a [pagan] custom of the Pre-islamic period of Ignorance, so when Islam came, we gave up going around them. Then Allah revealed" "Verily, Safa and Marwa (i.e. two mountains at Mecca) are among the Symbols of Allah. So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj of the House (of Allah) or perform the Umra to ambulate (Tawaf) between them." (2.158) (Hadith, al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 22-23)
Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle performed Tawaf of the Ka'ba and the Sa'i of Safa and Marwa so as to show his strength to the pagans. (Hadith, al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 710-711)
This all makes sense in the greater picture as well. More than anything Mohammad was a power hungry businessman whose sole objective was consolidation of power. He wanted to keep the various clans happy. Being that the annual pre-Islam vesrion of Hajj was the main source of income for these tribes, he incorporated the rituals into his concoction of religion to keep them happy and content and to buy their allegiance. This way, the animal sellers (for sacrifice) would be happy, etc.
The same thing happened in Christianity as well, where pagan rituals and traditions were adopted into the religion to keep the masses content, and even establishing "Sunday" (or Sun's Day from Norse mythology) as the official holiday, etc.
Anyway, excellent article.
PS- Please don't ask me for any sources. With the exception of the hadith that I was able to find with a quick Google serach, the rest of the stuff I read quite a few years ago, and do not remember the source9s). feel free to ignore them if you believe them to be inaccurate.
Fesenjoon2
by shahrvand2 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 08:34 AM PDTI understood Jirandoust’s reference to the satanic verses. You mentioned those in your piece as well. As these verses are only related through hadith, I find them unreliable. I find most hadith not worthy of consideration anyway. You probably know that Bukhari alone collected 300,000 hadiths and related only 2602 of them. This means that he found less than 1% of what he collected worthy of keeping. Others like Majlesi were not so picky. The body of collected Hadiths, of course, may be of some use to scholars and researchers. But one should be aware of the perils and pitfalls of using this unverifiable and incongruous collection of fables!
On a different note, I agree with you that religions draw upon cultures and religions of the past. Artists and poets do the same all the time. One can obviously see the influences of other religions in Islam. But finding original thoughts and ideas in Islam is not that difficult either.
the Hindu Allah?
by Fesenjoon2 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 07:09 AM PDTfascinating info.
Thanks AM.
Before Islam
by alimostofi on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:56 PM PDTF: start reading this:
//krishnajkaaba.blogspot.co.uk/
@alimostofi
FB: astrologer.alimostofi
Ali Mostofi and Jirandoust
by Fesenjoon2 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 07:58 PM PDTJirandoust, perhaps Ali is refering to the Mesopotamian civilizations that were advanced indeed, as well as other ancient pre-Arab nations in the area such as the Yemenis, and these guys:
//www.atlastours.net/jordan/petra.html
na ali jan?
It would have been very easy for the Arabs of Hijaz to draw ideas from these nearby (pagan) neighbors.
shahrvand2
by Fesenjoon2 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 07:48 PM PDTThanks for your comments.
Those ideas that you speak of could have came from Judaism and Christianity and other religions in the region, as the arabs were in contact with other peoples because of their geographical location, and they had active trade routes. If you dig a bit, you will find hadiths and writings (among the Sunni in particular) of Allah, that give an anthropomorphic (non-invisible) description of God.
What I'm trying to say is that: I think it would be safe to say that Islam (and Allah) perhaps drew on not one, but multiple sources (Pagan and monotheistic). Perhaps Muhammad took the idea of a monotheistic deity and tried to fit it into the mold of local beliefs in Mecca, customizing Al-Ilah to fit an Abrahamic description.
btw, our friend Jirandoust is mentioning the infamous gharanigh verses of the Quran, not the Salman Rushdie writings. It's fascinating. See here:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses
Sorry!
by shahrvand2 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 05:55 PM PDTI don't know much about satanic verses. As you aptly noted, most people know Islam as a monotheistic religion and I don't have to repeat what has been said before. The idea of the invisible God, however, partly comes from Quran 7, 143 as The Almighty denies Moses' request to see Him. Salman, of course, has other achievements to his name.
Sorry, didn't mean to offend
by jirandoust on Wed Sep 26, 2012 04:43 PM PDTSorry, didn't mean to offend you! But please tell me. Give me the sources of your writing, names of some books, articles, etc.. I am curious!
Ancient Arabian Astrology
by alimostofi on Wed Sep 26, 2012 04:03 PM PDTJ: you obviously do not know about the ancient pre-Judaism philosophies in the area.You have read the usual religious books. Please remember that Astrology is very old and universal.
So please refrain from flippant statements.
@alimostofi
FB: astrologer.alimostofi
alimostofi - Shahrvand2
by jirandoust on Wed Sep 26, 2012 03:58 PM PDTalimostofi: Arabs were very advance society? you are kidding, right?
where do you get your stuff? Please give us the source of your information. I for one am very curious.
Shahrvand2: It seems that you are trying very hard to separate Allah from pegan Arab's Al-Ilah and turn it into the invisible god that Zoroaster and Abraham talked about. You don't need to. It's been done before about 1400 years ago by that persian guy, Salman. If you truly believe islam was not the continuation of Arab peganism, then please explain the Satanic Verses to me. I would greatly apprecite it if you do.
Thank You for Your Thought Provoking Piece
by shahrvand2 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 01:06 PM PDTAllah may have been a borrowed name of a deity from the Age of Ignorance. But in its Islamic genesis, He had no resemblance to those gods of pre-Islamic era. First and foremost, Allah was Merciful and Compassionate (Quran, 1, 1). The Prophet spoke of this God in a male-dominated tribal society where these attributes were signs of weakness and femininity. Unlike His purported namesake Ilah, who was the progenitor of three other deities, Allah did not beget nor was He born (Quran, 112, 3). Again, the Bedouin didn’t think much of a deity with no family and no lineage. Allah taught the Quran, created the man and taught him utterance (Quran, 55, 2-4). One didn’t hear this kind of talk from other deities. Only in Quran and the Gospel of John was there this reference to the ”Word” representing knowledge or logos being created first and bestowal of the gift of knowledge to man. In contrast, the Greek mythology’s deities kept knowledge from man and tormented those who tried to steal it. I doubt those deities in Mecca were any better than their Greek counterparts. Time is short and I have to get to work but I also should say that I agree with you that all obstacles to research and study of all religions must be put aside. Those crowds in the streets of Karachi and Sana, however, appear to have a different opinion!
Interesting reading as well as collection of references - thanks
by MM on Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:14 AM PDT.
Kabba was a pre Hindu or Zoroastrian Temple
by alimostofi on Wed Sep 26, 2012 03:16 AM PDTF: what is called Mecca was an ancient pre-Hindu pre-Zoroastrian Astrological temple. The ancients of the planet were into Laylines. That is a vast subject. More to the point, as I have alluded to many times, the Arabs were very advanced society. It was Islam or should I say Salman Parsi's madness that destroyed everything.
The Arabs had an Astrological Temple that measured the position of the planets, not too differrent from what we Iranians had in The Temple of Solomon. In those days we did not have Jews Christians or Moslems. There were only Astrologers. Later on as proselytizing sold religion and killed free will we had the ancient history of the world rewritten and pretty much destroyed.
The Arabs had done a very good job of organizing their families. There were 12 tribes each responsible for one sign of the Zodiac. Where it went wrong was that they said that the one in charge of Leo or the Sun was the best tribe. It happened that Halabi Qureshi was in charge of the Moon and was second.
Salman destroyed all the other "idols" in Kabba and said that it all should be based on Moon. They adopted the lunar calendar because the Moon deals with the past, and Salman was worried about being forgotten. Moon worship makes people very introspective and clanish.
There is more to this. ..
@alimostofi
FB: astrologer.alimostofi
Al-Lat, Al-Manat
by jirandoust on Tue Sep 25, 2012 08:11 PM PDTSpeaking of Al-Lat and Al-Manat, it may be an appropriate place to bring up Quran verses 53:19 &20 here:
Have ye seen
Lat and Uzza,
And another
The third (goddess), Manat
These are high flying cranes, verily
Their intercession is accepted with approval
The verses later on as you may know referred to as "Satanic Verses". To me personally they are another proof that this was just a power struggle for Mohammad to gain guardianship of ka'aba which brought wealth and power to the family who had that privilege. It had nothing to do with creating a new religion. It was Salman the Persian and his vast knowledge of the other 3 religions, who lead Mohammad into creation of a new religion. But that's another blog all by itself.
vildemose
by Fesenjoon2 on Tue Sep 25, 2012 08:06 PM PDTyour avatar is so colorful and cheerful. I keep noticing it. Thanks for bringing it back :-)