An Interesting Take on Why Religion Is A Creation of Our Limited Intelligence

Anonymous Observer
by Anonymous Observer
08-Aug-2011
 

Here is illusionist Darren Brown's take on the fallacy of "intelligent design," and why our limited intelligence, and our inability to explain things that are beyond our limited experiences, create that concept:

And while you're at it, you should also watch this very funny take on the disasters that are the three Abrahamic religions:

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stavackoli

Truthseeker9

by stavackoli on

The feeling is mutual.  I hope for a fantastic future for Iran as well and I hope we all can get along and it will be a pleasure to "put up with an aberration" like you if you can put up with a different aberration like me!


Truthseeker9

dear stavakoli

by Truthseeker9 on

Truth is I do not care what Jesus or The Bab, or Baha'u'llah have to gain. For all I know Jesus could have been a paranoid schizophrenic high on some sort of weed as Moses was. As for why people tend to follow others, people have different reasons. I don’t care, I think for myself and do not go with any crowd. It doesn’t boggle my mind, because I do not live my life according to other peoples choices.

“As I have said before, I don't care whether anyone believes in God or not, whether anyone believes in any particular religion or not, it doesn't matter, we all should respect each other's views.  “

 

Exactly. And from reading your comments I know you do not mean any disrespect. In fact I really like you, you sound a lovely person. And that is what matters to me in life, not  your religion, etc. If you are a nice person and respect others, I will respect you and stand up for your rights in a future Iran. Likewise I hope you can put up with an aberration like me!    ;D


stavackoli

Reading vs. reading into

by stavackoli on

So, here is my last comment on the blog.  I don't really care who is "ahead" and behem bar nemikhore either.  If people actually read what I have written over the past couple of days, it will save all of us some time.  Your time is precious to me and my time is as well.  I read in people's comments things like "wise men got together and came up with a fairy tale, etc." of course there is proof for that right?  I also ask questions which I have not had any any answers for from you intellectual people.  Questions like, what did Jesus or The Bab, or Baha'u'llah have to gain from "preaching" their message? You have studied and can think for yourselves, right? How did these people gather 6-7 million followers in a span of 150 years, or more than a billion in a span of 2000 years?  How is it that people, not all of whom are stupid (call them stupid and you'd show your own arrogance and stupidity of course), are willing to sacrifice their lives for them, two thousand years down the line? It buggles the mind really, but apparently not your mind.

As I have said before, I don't care whether anyone believes in God or not, whether anyone believes in any particular religion or not, it doesn't matter, we all should respect each other's views.  When I said educate yourselves, I did not mean any disrespect, and I apologize if it came out that way.  All I meant was that while there is no historical proof for "wise men getting together and coming up with a fancy story" there is historical proof for people bringing a new message which guided and caused advancement of people's knowledge for a while.  As I mentioned before, the moslems were the most civilized people on earth for a while scientifically, how does one explain a bunch of bedowine Arabs all of a sudden leaping to the forefront of science?  How do you explain the leap in science between 1844 (the year of declaration of The Bab) and now as compared to the entire human history prior to it?  While it may not be evident to a casual observer, to the historians it is obvious that human beings' scientific knowlege goes through periods of sudden leap and for some reason these periods coincide with the coming of a new religion, strange isn't it?  

So, I have said my peace and will not write on this blog again. Again, I thank you for reading what has been written here in good faith and please do not take any insult from what I write, none was meant. 


Cost-of-Progress

Stavakoli

by Cost-of-Progress on

hala chera behet barmikhore?
George Carlin is not my mentor, but his quote makes a lot of sense, and I LIKE IT, because it is true.

That OK with you?

I have enough facutly to think for myslef instead of relying on fairy tales and books written by faulty humans who fool other humans into believing they were written by this GOD entity - So go educate yourself on that, tavakoli.

PS - you should have stayed away and not posted, you'd have been ahead!

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________


Anonymous Observer

COP Jaan - That's one of my favorite quotes from Arthur C. Clark

by Anonymous Observer on

As Richard Dawkins puts it, I really do not need a fairy tale book (in Islam's case, written by a pedophile itself) to tell me that raping a child or murdering someone is wrong.  I know it already!


Anonymous Observer

Reality-Bites

by Anonymous Observer on

Our intelligence is limited compared to the extent of the universe that we live in.


Anonymous Observer

TS-9 - Very good point

by Anonymous Observer on

Education is exactly what's lacking in religion.  And Exactly HOW are we supposed to "educate" ourselves?  Read the Bible, The Quran, etc.?


Anonymous Observer

You do not have an explanation

by Anonymous Observer on

you have an over active imagination.

 Where does this intellect come from? Can you scientifically explain this? I know you can't, no one can.  I am comfortable with my explanation of it, what is your explanation?

Your "explanation" is nothing but fantasy.  That there is an invisbile being that "engineered" all of this.  Where's your proof?  

Here's my explanation: I do not know.  I also know that there are other things, many things, that I, along with the rest of humanity, do not know.  But we will find out.  That's how things work.  That's how science and discovery works.  We did not know what caused smallpox 200 years ago.  Now we do.  

You should learn humility and be at peace with the fact that there are things that we still have not discovered.  But we will. 


Truthseeker9

Educate ourselves?

by Truthseeker9 on

Unfortunately many people with religious upbringing grow into adults blinded by apparent superiority and assume others lack intelligence/ education if they disagree with them.  Defend your opinion with some evidence, rather than preaching. Not that it is important to me, as I accept peoples beliefs as long as they do not dictate how I live my life or judge me .


stavackoli

Against my best judgement

by stavackoli on

I really had decided not to post anything else here, as it seems to be a waste of both of our times, but as a last word, I feel obligated.  I do see the difference, but I don't think you see it.  Believing in a next world does not give me cart blanche, as you put it, to crap all over this world.  I am taught to treat this planet as a gift and to honor it and treasure it.  I am taught to treat all other humans as equal, no matter what their race, their occupation or their sex.  I am taught to do these things for betterment of the world and for betterment of myself.  I am fearful of losing God's love.  I am not fearful of his wrath.  I do not believe in a fiery hell, or a dungeon or any other scary, made up by humans, physical place.  I am however fearful of being far from my beloved (God) in the next world.  This is a powerful driving force, far more powerful than moral judgement that can be clouded from one day to the next.  The analogy to the cow, despite what you may think is a perfect one.  A cow does not have the power of intellect, yet his brain, the most evolved animal's brain let's say, is not much different from that of yours or mine.  Where does this intellect come from? Can you scientifically explain this? I know you can't, no one can.  I am comfortable with my explanation of it, what is your explanation?

And for the people with the quotes, I didn't know this was the quote day, or I would have brought some with me.  Quoting George Carlin? really? that's your mentor? The guy who couldn't be funny without being insanely obscene? This is your philosopher? I am a fan of George Carlin, may God rest his soul, but I am a fan of his as a comedian, not as a philosopher and would not put much stock in what he has to say about religions and humanities.   Also, please read the entire blog if you're going to comment here.  Religious bloodshed and mayhem is the fault of the people who misinterpret the message, not the fault of the message.  If I call you and tell you to be careful tomorrow because it is going to rain, and then you call your friends and say "I have it on good authority that we should move from this here land cause it is going to flood", and then they call their friends and say the world is coming to an end; it does not mean my original phone call was corrupt or made up, it means your exaggeration of if was unfounded, that's all.  Humans have added, subtracted, manipulated and altered the original messages of all the messegers of God throughout the history through their unauthorized interpretation, and then you come along and blame everything on the original message.  Educate yourselves.


Cost-of-Progress

Here's another

by Cost-of-Progress on

“The Greatest Tragedy in Mankind's Entire History may be the Hijacking of Morality by Religion.”

Sir Arthur C. Clarke (1917-2008)

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________


Cost-of-Progress

One of My Favorite Quotes

by Cost-of-Progress on

“Religion has convinced us that there’s this invisible man in the sky who watches every little thing every one of us does every moment of our lives. This invisible man has a list of all the things you must not do, and, if you do any of them, he’ll send you to the bowels of a place where fire, torture and agony awaits you till eternity……………but he loves you.”

George Carlin

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________


David ET

God created man

by David ET on

and man created religions


Reality-Bites

Question is

by Reality-Bites on

Our intelligence is limited compared to whom (assuming belief in God and religion is all nonsense)?


Truthseeker9

Interesting blog

by Truthseeker9 on

Life is a mystery there are no answers and some need faith so we have religion of all kinds. Man creates god in his own imagination to suit his own needs in order to find a grand purpose for life. I believe that this concept was generated for the good by men / group of wise men, and created in the image and likeness of the rulers of that particular geographic location. What I find frustrating is that children are brought up to believe in god just like they are brought up to believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, and on a concept that is not factual. In my opinion children should be taught morals, and life skills, but religion is not necessary for life. Talk of  "spiritual beings", afterlife and heaven are religous talk. I wonder if there was no religious exposure people would have thought it out for themselves and consider it as objective.


Anonymous Observer

Unfortunately, you seem to suffer from the exact affliction

by Anonymous Observer on

than Darren Brown speaks of.  Reading your comment, one can clearly see that you are struggling to explain things that you (and I) as human beings, are not yet capable of.  Therefore, you create a fantasy world where all of what you do not know are explained without the need for any proof whatsoever.  Two hundred years ago we did not know what an electron was.  Now we do. Eight hundred years ago we thought that the Earth was flat, and for that we had conjured up all kinds of fanatsies as to what the end of the Earth looked like.  Now we know otherwise.  Right now we do not know exactly how the universe began and where it is headed, but a hundred years from now we perhaps will.  I am comfortable knowing that there are questions that we, as human begins, cannot yet answer.  Are you? 

To manufacture fanatsies to substitute for our lack of knowledge is foolish and outright dangerous.  Exhibit "A" of the "danger" is all the crimes that have been committed against human being throughout the ages because of the fairy tales that we call religion.  When you make things up as you go (as in the case of religion), anything goes, and therein lies the danger.

And we are not like cows.  With all due respect, that is a stupid analogy.  Cows don't create art, science and language.  We do.  My view of life is that I am here on this planet for a limited amount of time.  I have respect for this environment because I know that this is the ONLY place I will ever be.  Unlike someone [like you] who believes that he/she will get a second or third bite of the apple, I know that this is it.  This is my ONLY chance to make a good impression with the world at large and to make my mark on this planet.  So, I better use this opportunity wisely.  My "soul" will not move on to a better place, and thus, I do not have carte blanche to crap all over this world.  Someone like me has much more respect and understanding of this world, and this existance, than one who believes in some magical being in the sky. 

See the difference?   


stavackoli

Physical world

by stavackoli on

Unfortunately this discussion seems to be rather one sided. Again, unfortunately, you seem to be living in a very limited and small world.  So, here is another (my last) snippet about how I look at the world vs. how you look at the world.  I believe human beings are primarily spiritual beings who carry this body around for a relatively short period of time, they then shed it and move on.  The purpose of this life is to improve on the tools we have in our possession (tools perhaps like compassion, love, understanding, perferring another person over ourselves, and things like that, I am just guessing, I do not know) and then move on.  A fetus in the womb of his mother has no idea why he is develping legs and arms and eyes and ears and so on, he has no way of knowing it, but if he does not develop them, he will be, physically at least, disabled in this life.  If we do not develop our spiritual qualities, we will be handicapped in the next world, the spiritual world.  That is the difference between heaven and hell, these concepts are not physical, they are spiritual and they can not be explained by physical means.

The way you look at the world, we come here make money, eat, have sex, have children, eat, make money, have sex, make more children, die.  Cows have that perfected my friend.  Why are WE here? Aren't we supposed to be superior to the cow?  What makes us superior? Our intellect? where does it come from? our brain? Is our brain tissue, our genetic code that much different from a chimp? Why did only a group of monkey looking things evolve into humans? Because they were not monkeys to being with.  Because even if they looked like monkeys, their SPIRIT was different from a monkey and therefore their intellect was different.  Monkeys die and nothing is left.  You and I die and our soul moves on.  

I don't have to prove anything to anyone.  Last I checked this was a free country and I am entitled to my opinion, specially when it comes to matters of believing or not believing in God.  God never asked me to prove him to you or anyone and as such, I do not have that obligation, I really and truly could not care less whether you belive in Him or not, you are entitled to your opinion.   

And please, I have been a physician for many years, I know better, that's why I believe the way I believe.  I have seen many things that are NOT explained by the scientific theory, it is afterall a theory.  It changes, it has changed and it changes forever as we evolve.  It can not explain everything, far from it, it barely scratches the surface of what it thinks it can explain.  So, believe in what you want and I will believe in what I want.  Have a great life. 


Anonymous Observer

Physical and not a metaphysical world

by Anonymous Observer on

that's where (or what) we live in.  If I can't see it, touch it or smell it, or otherwise prove (or show) it by scientific methods, it does not exist.  As a physician you should know better.

PS - the burden of proof is still on you, and it has nothing to do with proving it to me per se.   If I claim that there's an apple on my coffe table, I have the burden of proving it.  If you claim that there's a God, you have the burden of proving it, just to show the listener (or the reader, as the case may be) that you're not full of hot air.  If you don't want to be confronted by the listener / reader who demands proof, then don't make the claim.


stavackoli

Burden of Proof

by stavackoli on

Well, my friend here is the problem with your argument.  While in religions past people have tried their best to "convert" people to their religion (again, because they misunderstood their own message), in my religion and my way of understanding, I offer you a point of view, you have the freedom to take it or leave.  I encourage you to investigate it for yourself and I accept your conclusions without quarrel, whatever they may be.  I may not agree with them, but I accept the fact that you may or may not believe in any one thing.  That is called independent investigation of truth, I encourage it, I don't forbid it.  When you look at it that way, I have no burden of proof; you don't believe in God? fine, don't believe in Him.  This is not a cup out as you put it, this is the truth of the matter.  For years, nay centuries, people have wasted their time arguing whether there is a God or not.  Do you really think God cares one way or another, whether you think he exists or not?  If you have some fish in a bowl, do you really care whether they're arguing about your existence or not? (please take from the example what is meant, and don't start arguing that we are not fish and this is not a bowl, I realize that)

As for googling love, I am a physician, I do not have to google it. As a matter of fact I suggest you don't google things you may not understand as there is a lot of misinformation on the web that leads people astray for one reason or another.  There is no scientific proof for love.  Just because some part of the brain lights up on a PET scan it does not mean love resides in that part of the brain or that is the proof for love, description of love is what is beyond our means, not whether we can see evidences of it.  I did not suggest we do not see evidences of it, I merely suggested to describe it fully and to explain it and prove it to a rational human being is beyond our means, that's all. Plus that was only one example, I can give you a hundred examples, can you describe the smell of a particular flower to someone who has never seen the flower? Can you really?  One has to have the means, we do not.  We do not call God The Unknowable Essence because he is easily recognizable, we call him that because we are incapable of understanding, knowing, proving or disproving Him.  


Anonymous Observer

Stavackoli - here's the problem

by Anonymous Observer on

if you, or anyone else, claims that there's a God, or an "intelligent deisgner," whatever you want to call it, the burden is on you to prove it. if I claim that there's the smallest new thing, a bacteria, I will have to publish a paper on it, have it peer reviewed and scrutinzied before it can be accepted.  But religion asks people to accept something as profound as a God who controls everything, just by faith.  No proof required.  That is just insane!  

And the claim that something is "all around you" and "all you have to do is look" is, respectfully, ridiculous and a cop out.  People also used to believe in spontaneous generation.  They believed that flies just arose out of rotting meat.  And the way they reached that consludion was to just look at the rotting meat and see flies coming out it.  Things can be interpreted whichever way a person wants.  Religious people tend to look around and believe that stars were so complex that they must have been "designed" and "created," and that's the whole point of the video.

Religion should be proven like any other scientific concept, and those who believe in the existence of a God have the burden of doing so.

PS- love can also be scientifically proven.  There are many, many scientific studies done on the issue, showing which areas of the brain become active, etc.  Google it! 


stavackoli

Religion

by stavackoli on

With all due respect I find nothing interesting or new about
either of these two videos.  The first,
an illusionist, expects what all atheists in the world expect, physical proof
of something that is not physical.  There
are a myriad of problems with his argument, suffice it to say that since you
can not prove to me, with physical means, that there is something called love,
I can not negate its presence and by the same argument, no one can deny the
existence of God.  No one can prove the
existence of God either of course, but the proofs are all around you, you just
have to open your eyes, and that is not easy to do.  There is a story about Copernicus which may
or may not be true, but it has a point to it so I will repeat it here.  It seems Copernicus was once visited by an
atheist friend who saw in his work room a rudimentary model of the solar
system.  The friend was amazed by it and
asked him where it had come from or who had made it, to which Copernicus
answered, no one made it, it just evolved over time as I was working here.  His friend did not believe him and as the
story goes, Copernicus told him you can not believe the model of the thing
happened by itself, but you believe the real, working thing, that is a million
times more complex happened by itself?  Now
of course that is a simple argument and it is not to prove or disprove the
existence of God, but I submit that it makes you think.  Many more apt and intellectual philosophers
have scratched their head regarding this issue and have not been able to reach
a conclusion.  Perhaps the biggest and
most celebrated one being Immanuel Kant who believed our experiences are made
of phenomenal ones and what our interpretation is of the noumenal (unknowable
to us) things/objects/concepts.  To
understand love for example, we have to translate its meaning and its
experience into finite objects, whereas the thing itself is not an object and
remains hidden from our view.  We do
experience it, however we can never fully describe it.  It’s like trying to describe the taste of a
peach to someone who has never tasted it, you can never do it to its full
extent, one has to experience it for themselves.  So, to Kant, God can not be proven or negated
as God’s existence lies beyond the capabilities of our senses, it is that
simple.  So, the only proofs we have are
the manifestations of God who come to teach humanity about the spiritual
lessons human can not survive without. 
The atheist, will have a problem explaining how it is that a man without
any material means and with, what seemed at the time, all odds against him,
having been crucified at a young age a mere few years after declaring his
message, now 2000 years later has more than a billion followers around the
world? How did he do it? Are we under the impression that he was just a guy
like any other? What was his purpose? What possible gain did he expect? What
gain did he achieve? As opposed to the bloodshed and wars in the name of His
religion, maybe we should look at his accomplishments.  I bet most people do not know that the
Moslems had figured out the circumference of the Earth nearly 500 years prior
to Galileo going on trial for calling Earth round! You see? It is easy to blame
the religion for our own shortcomings, it is not easy to assign blame where it
is due.

 

Which brings me to the problem, and it is not a small one, with
the second video, that of the comedian. 
He, like most other people that think like him, mistake the behavior of
the followers of a religion, for its teachings. 
 Human intervention in the
teachings of a religion corrupt the religion’s message to the point of
obsoletion, if it were not for human intervention and misinterpretation, the
religions of God would not lead to bloodshed and mayhem.  It is the wont of power and the corrupt
behavior of the leaders of a religion that lead to its demise and the need for
the renewal of the message of God.  While
human beings have evolved, so has the religion of God.  This is the foundation of what is known as
progressive revelation.  As we have
learned, through our mistakes of the past, how to deal with the physical world,
the religion of God has been revealed to us through progressive stages and as
we continue to evolve, our understanding of the religion of God has evolved or
has to evolve as well.  We now should
know and believe that the religion of God has one purpose and one purpose only,
the unification of all of Mankind.  We
have to believe that God created us because He loved us and unless we love Him,
His love can in no way reach us.  We have
to believe that if a religion encourages war and bloodshed, then its lack is
better than its existence.  Our
collective efforts should be directed at one goal, the unification of Mankind.  If we can accomplish that, we have succeeded
in our mission, otherwise the whole of humanity will be irrecoverably lost.