Sic Semper Tyrannis

People will react similarly if situation is Iraq

There is nothing special about Iranians or Americans. Given the situation of uncertainty and lack of security things will get out of hand. Specially in a region filled with ethnic groups wanting independence.

I have no doubt that the moment the central system weakens, the Jundallah, Al qaedah, Baluchi liberation army, MKO, Arab/Ahvazi nationalists, Kurdish PKK branches...move to gain grounds. If you think this is far from reality, then you are far from reality.

This is only one side of the situation that can be assumed, surprises will be on the way.

It's not Muslims killing Muslims. Starts with a aggressor destroying a system externally and conquering the land...obviously no military can replace a system in place. Do the same in the US and you'll see [what you would call] Christians killing Christians. What it is, the situation has given room for groups and people up to no good to have a chance to revenge. In my city, if such situation happens, the bankrupted part of the town, which is also very violent, moves in all wealthiest neighborhoods. Who is to stop them if there is no system in place? 

Hope some understand politics and government 101.

Response to "Sargord"

You disgust me because you defend the most repressive and violent regime in recent Iranian history and the Number One killer of Iranian men, women, and children. You do this, not while living under the misery of that regime itself, but in safety and freedom in the U.S. You come online to defend a regime which denies Iranians the most basic freedoms that you enjoy. Okay, now let's hear your "substantive" response to that. I want you to shock me by demonstrating an ounce of intellectual honesty. I look forward to your response, if you have any. Regards.  

You say: "Well, AO, even the Bush administration was forced to concede that the level of street violence was the result of unforeseen repercussions of its invasion."

In other words, Arabs and other Muslims have no responsibility for killing each other, cutting each other's heads off, and sending suicide bombers into crowded marketplaces (just another couple happened yesterday). Arabs are little children, and the Great Satan is the real culprit. How pathetic!

Maturing?

Jenabeh Sargord. You are confusing rotting with maturing. A good wine matures. Bad one goes vinegar.  If IRI had a change for maturing it is long lost. It got lost when Khomeini went  back on his word, interfere with politics impose  hijab.

It got lost when IRI pushed out all the liberal clerics.To be fair there wasn't much of a chance to begin with but it is all gone now. The IRI is a rotting pile of garbage. It will never mature. It will perish and be replaced by only god knows.

Challenging Question But disagree Revolution was Not highjacked

I think in both cases it's been a devastating failure.

Does Machiavelli's Outlook on Politics Prevail to the Iraq scenario ?

HISTORY FORUM: Machiavelli's "The Prince" and the "Art" of Governing

In otherwords that "The Outcome Justifies the Act" :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXL8XHpjfGI

I really Dunno ... I guess that is up to the Iraqis who lived under both regimes and had to put up with this War and it's material and human casualties can answer to this question and not us Iranians or Iranian Americans for that matter who are not victimes nor benefiting from the eventual outcome of this "Pacification War"or "War on Terror" directly ...

However As far as Iranians are concerned to claim that the Revolution of 79 was Highjacked is PURE BOLONEY !

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf8lg91Q18U

That people particularly Women ( many of whom voluntarily put on the Tchador as a sign of Defiance to the Shah who had given them the right to vote even before Switzerland ) realized quickly how wrong they were :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU-Dy53nCNU&feature=related

The Fact remains that Most if not ALL who supported the Revolution in 1979 Supported KHOMEINY to claim the contrary is Intellectual Dishonesty to say the least aimed at soothing one's own guilt in having participated in the demos.

That some hoped for a different scenario and outcome than an Islamic Republic is one thing but to claim that the Revolution was highjacked by the Mullahs is Pure BS ... Sorry for making this blunt statement which is nothing personal against the person's observation (fooladi or Majid).

But back in 79 you were either for the Shah or against Khomeiny ...

The National Front itself was split between Constitutionalists ( Bakhtiar) and Supporters of Khomeiny ( Sanjabi, Forouhar).

People like Shirin Ebadi, Soroush, Akbar Ganji or the Reformists of today are at Best the prolongation of the à la Shariati political mindset and Sanjabi-Bazargan political legacy:

Mehdi Bazargan and the controversial legacy of Iran's Islamic intellectual movement  

and Certainly NOT that of Bakhtiar and other Secularists who represented at best the Silent Majority at worst a  well intentioned minority ( who would have probably been a majority had the Shah named him earlier on but that is an entirely different debate ...). 

Pro Bakhtiar Demos in Support of Maintaining the 1906 Constitution Respected TO THE LETTER and NOT a Revolution:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vas_tvGZgWE

That Bakhtiars Constitutionalist Legacy Prevails More Strongly than Ever today is symptomatic of the fact that his Minority have become Vocal Majority today as never before in the 100th year struggle for Democacy as the Only Coherent and Pragmatic path towards the establishment of a Democratic System of Government which subscribes to Both Our Legitimate Democratic and Human Rights Aspirations but also our Nationalistic Self dignity (Contrary to what Farid Zakaria and his wannabe Iran Expert Maziar Bahari claim as being a Fantasy):

Bakhtiar's last public speech supporting the idea of REGIME CHANGE based On the RESTORATION of the 1906 Constitution:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNBFTWXz5_Q

Proving if Needed that all those who claim that their Revolution was Highjacked are simply Lying to themselves or at worst have alzheimers as a possible excuse in which case they should consult a physician at the nearest possibility:

LESSONS IN DEMOCRACY: Shapour Bakhtiar Interview with LA TV (1987)

Which leads me to conclude that Restoration is the Only Legitimate and Coherent Path left for us to pursue if we hope to EVER implement Democracy in our homeland:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFjjjGwEDkQ

Anything else is at best commendable Wishful thinking but which as time goes by sets any realistic Agenda towards Regime change to another distant future which will alas be out of reach in our Lifetime ...

Knowing us Iranians and IRANICAN's ... I know we will NEVER Get our ACTS Together

A Response to David ET's Blog: "Iranicans" Get Your Acts Together!!!

So My Advice is Stop Fearing ...

Reza Pahlavi won't be King given How Good You IRANICANS are in Getting Your PRIORITIES WRONG ...

So David or others like him who wish to draft a new constitution Can sleep well ... All the more that Sanctions are Not enough to topple this despicable UN IRANIAN regime ...

But My Other Advice is that you Also Stop Dreaming ...

Cause At Best Your Grand Children will see a Free, Democratic and Secular Republic Which Neither Bakhtiar nor any Iranian who Opposed Khomeiny advocated at the time ...

These Stinky Crying Mullahs are Here to Stay for a forseable future I am afraid:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QY1T-2f_KM

But Cheer Up I have heard the Cheese in Switzerland is absolutely Divine:

A Bon Entendeur Salut !

Well, AO, even the Bush

Well, AO, even the Bush administration was forced to concede that the level of street violence was the result of unforeseen repercussions of its invasion. To deny that is to take a position that is even more in denial than that of neocon Condi Rice. And that's totally unrealistic.

Irani

I agree that a great amount of the violence in Iraq, and the resulting deaths, were committed by Islamists and other groups without U.S. involvement.  Suicide bombings in markets and neighborhoods cannot possibly be blamed on the U.S.  The same goes for Afghanistan.  And the interesting thing is that we NEVER see any condemnation of indiscriminate suicide bombings (or of beheadings and stonings) in Iraq or Afghanistan by our resident "humanists" on this site.

Irani

That's your now standard excuse for lack of a suitable counter-argument.

Just admit it: you've nothing substantive to contribute to the discussion. 

Lecturing from non-Persian speaking Cyber Groupie Phoney Sargord

 For the exiles, like the American loyalists exiled after 1780, they have some growing up to do, or eventual resignation to be acknowledged. 

An IRI Cyber Groupie who lives in the U.S., calls himself a Phoney "Sargord" rather than by his real name Mark Pirooz (also spelled Mark Pyruz--he has many identities--all of them pathetic), speaks about 5 words of Persian, and doesn't live in the Islamist hellhole that he is constantly propagandizing and telling ridiculous lies about lectures Iranians. What a farce  :-)

Sort of like asking yourself

Sort of like asking yourself which is better, the American Revolution or the Islamic revolution of 1979. If you're a Cherokee, the answer in 1830 might surprise you.

So it goes with the IR; it has maturing to do. For the exiles, like the American loyalists exiled after 1780, they have some growing up to do, or eventual resignation to be acknowledged. 

Let's keep focused

Of course the war in Iraq was wrong.  But I'm talking about two catastrophic events and I am comparing the eventual results.    One catastrophe (Iraq) may actually result in a forward movement for that nation, while ours has resulted in backward movement for our nation with no end in sight.  

Fooladi

To this point I couldn't agree with you more.

And in Iraq.............that village idiot just wanted to finish his daddy's war and get his second term fixed! 

Not an apple with apple comparison

But this is what I think:

Iranian 1979 revolution was a popular dmocratic solution which was hijacked and later destroyed by Islamists working hand in hand with US and british intelligence services. It was a step forward in the sense it gave the Iranians a taste of the collective will and power and what can be achieved with it. How many steps back? only the history can and will tell.

Iraqi invasion was wrong , wrong, wrong ! 

Anonymous Observer: I agree with your observations...

While I opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq and believe that the U.S. was certainly responsible for some of the deaths there (especially from 2003-2005), we also have to realize that when the Iraqi Sunnis and Shia started killing each other in large numbers from 2005 to the present, that most of the deaths there were carried out by Muslims against other Muslims. When they cut off each other's heads and dump the bodies by the side of the road or send suicide bombers into crowded marketplaces (the favorite Sunni method) or use power drills and torture each other to death (the Shia method), then you have to place a lot of the responsibility for the savagery, death, destruction, and mayhem in Iraq at the hands of the Arabs themselves. Arabs are not little children, and everything bad that happens to them is not the fault of the Great Satan or Israel. They have to start taking some responsibility for the mess that most of their countries are currently lying in, even though I know the IRI Groupies like to blame the U.S. entirely for the situation in Iraq. There are some signs that it may improve, though just today Islamist barbarians blew up more bombs and killed another couple dozen people in Iraq. It's funny that Islamists are doing most of the killing in Iraq, and yet Islamists like to blame others for the situation. And I have yet to see a thread on this website regarding this latest act of Islamist barbarism. Perhaps, the Gaza News Network (GNN) is too busy covering developments in Holy Qods... 

kojashoo deedeen

the US war on Iran is next...... Freedom of Iran is near.....