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Which One Was Worse: The U.S. War on Iraq or the 1979 Devolution in Iran?
21-Jun-2010
At first glance, it may seem obvious. “Shock and Awe”, missiles slamming into buildings, illuminating a dark Baghdad night, pictures on innocent civilians, including women and children, dead and injured, American tanks rolling into the Iraqi capital…they are all images that remind us of the brutality of war, especially a war waged against a neighboring country with which we have so many cultural and historical ties. But let’s take a step back and compare the aftermath of the Iraq war to the aftermath of the 1979 devolution in our homeland.
The Iraq war was the result of a foreign military force attacking the country. It caused massive damage to the country’s infrastructure and resulted in the deaths of more than a hundred thousand Iraqis (some estimate the figures to be in the hundreds of thousands). But seven years later, Iraq has a nascent democracy that has shown resilience even in the face of a less than decisive elections and in even in the face of an ongoing American troop withdrawal. The road will be tough, but all indications are that Iraq will not fall apart as a result of a civil war as some had predicted – or even hoped.
By contrast, look at Iran. Thirty one years after the 1979 devolution and we are in a much worse situation than we were before that catastrophic event. The devastation brought on by the devolution is no less than what happened in Iraq. Tens of thousands of Iranians were executed, hundreds of thousands died in the trenches of the Iran-Iraq war –which would have never happened if Shah had remained in power. Whole cities, such as Khorramshahr and Ghasr-e-Shirin were destroyed in the war, and many others were severely damaged, and Iran’s infrastructure and military were also decimated during the war.
So, the question is: what did we gain in return? While Iraqis can at least look forward to a democratic future, Iranians are still being brutalized by a medieval theocracy. While Iraqis can look forward to a growing economy (albeit some distance away), Iran’s economy has been declining and declining every year, and is going to weaken even further as a result of the impending sanctions. While Iraqi minorities can celebrate their newly acquired rights, Iranian women are still being forced into a mandatory dress code, and are being fined for wearing nail polish. While Iraq has been enjoying a free media, every single opposition newspaper and magazine has been shut down in Iran. While Iraq has an independent body that oversees elections, Iran’s thug in chief, Kahmenei, tells the Iranian people that they will be responsible for what happens to them (meaning we will kill you and it will be your fault) and his thug minions rape, jail and execute Iranians for asking “where is my vote”. And now, 31 years on, they are reverting back to their tactics of three decades ago in harassing the average Iranian.
Now, I know that the IRI lackey’s response will be that “we have independence”. First of all, you don’t. Before the devolution, you were arguably reliant of the “West” (operating word: arguably). Now you are dependent on the Russian mob and Chinese murderers and have to kiss their behinds day and night so that they don’t vote for sanctions against you (which they do at the end).
So, for the past 31 years since the 1979 devolution, we have had every bad thing that happened to Iraq happen to us with the only difference that the Iraqis may get something out of their suffering, whereas we have so far gotten zilch.
Lastly, for all those who still reminisce about the glorious “revolution”, I suggest you take the time to watch the last six minutes of this video (credit goes to David ET for posting it on another blog):
| Recently by Anonymous Observer | Comments | Date |
|---|---|---|
| The 1979 Devolution Was The Perfect Fit For Iranians | 72 | Nov 24, 2012 |
| Bring Dr. Mohandes & Vildemose Back!!! | 31 | Nov 08, 2012 |
| Iranian.com, David Duke or "Storm Front?" | 66 | Oct 12, 2012 |
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Tamanna@Famous quotes
by shamsarefin uddin ahmed on Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:43 AM PST
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You raise a lot of questions in my head; you wrote a good post. This post
creates great impression into my mind, the explanation, content quality, purpose
are very good and very much helpful but this post is also thought provoking,
and I will have to ponder it some more; I will be back soon.
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<a href="//www.great-quotes.com/">Famous
quotes</a>
Psychology with counseling, counseling degree
by shamsarefin uddin ahmed on Thu Dec 23, 2010 03:05 AM PSTI am hoping the same best work from you in the future as well. In fact
your creative writing ability has inspired me.it is best article.i will
performers in world this article.with number of children who died is finding the reason. You take the kid
mortality rate. Before sanctions and after sanctions. Then use that to
arrive at a number. Does that mean sanctions were the cause? Maybe but
not 100%. Were there other factors? I am sure sanctions did not help
but how many is hard to determine.
Sort of like smoking. We know smoking is a killer. How many people does it exactly? That is really hard to determine.
I am sure my reasoning does not make the injured parties feel better. But that is out of my hands.
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<a href="//www.psychology.ie/"> Psychology with counseling</a>
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Anonymous Observer
by Mammad on Sat Jun 26, 2010 05:09 PM PDTSorry for being late, and thank you for your kind words.
I have never expected anyone to take anything that anyone says at face value. Same thing with the number of Iraqi children who died as the result of the sanctions in the 1990s. Just do a bit of research with google.
When we say this or that number of children died, we mean after accounting for the normal rate of infant mortality and things of that sort. In other words, a large number - 500,000 or otherwise - died because of the sanctions.
Mammad
VPK Jaan
by Anonymous Observer on Fri Jun 25, 2010 06:36 PM PDTIn this instance, I would think that since the propaganda value of such tragedy would have been so high for Saddam, he would have meticulously documented every death. However, the fact is that no such statistics exist. Again, I'm not denying that there was suffering because of the sanctions, but to just pull some number out of our hat--especially a number propagated by Saddam without any proof, is just simply improper.
Problem
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Fri Jun 25, 2010 05:34 PM PDTwith number of children who died is finding the reason. You take the kid mortality rate. Before sanctions and after sanctions. Then use that to arrive at a number. Does that mean sanctions were the cause? Maybe but not 100%. Were there other factors? I am sure sanctions did not help but how many is hard to determine.
Sort of like smoking. We know smoking is a killer. How many people does it exactly? That is really hard to determine.
I am sure my reasoning does not make the injured parties feel better. But that is out of my hands.
VPK.
Mammad
by Anonymous Observer on Fri Jun 25, 2010 04:59 PM PDTYou know that I like and respect you. But I got to say, on this whole issue of "500,000 Iraqi children dead", you are just pulling these numbers out of thin air.
You claim that 500,000 Iraqi children died as a result of the sanctions in the 1990's and that the number is "widely acknowledged". By whom? Where is the evidence? This is not like IRI's executions where the government was trying to hide the crimes, and was disposing of bodies in mass and / or anonymous graves. If so many children were dying as a result of the sanctions, they would surely have been the best propaganda opportunity for Saddam, and he would have taken maximum advantage of it through his state controlled media. Where are the pictures? Where are the documents showing the 500,000 figure?
As I said before, I don't doubt that sanctions had a negative effect on the Iraqi society, and that people suffered, but 1) part of that was due to Saddam's misuse of the funds, and 2) if we are talking about an exaggerated figure, where documents should be available, you should present that evidence to back up your statement.
A few responses
by Anonymous Observer on Fri Jun 25, 2010 04:52 PM PDTSorry everyone for late response. Work obligations.
Fair Jaan: Thank you for your comment. The past 31 years have been nothing but a disaster for our nation.
Oktaby: The fact that Khomeini wanted war is no secret. It was God'd gift to the IRI. They could not have consolidate power without it, and they may not have been in charge today had it not been for the war.
On another note, I always say that the IRI is reverting back to its 1980's play book these days. That is why they are seeking a war with the "West" now. The interesting thing is that the IRI is like a little mischievous child. It pokes and creates trouble, and pushes the envelope, and stops just short of firing the first shot. It then allows the other side to fire the shot and then cries foul. That's why it did with Iraq and that's what it's trying to do with the U.S.
These days the IRI is seeing the most significant challenge to its rule since the 1980's. It has gone back to its play book. It has stopped the press, jailed, tortured and executed opponents. All that it needs now is a war to complete the process, and it's doing everything in its power to start a war without firing the first shot.
parlingtom & others can't you wipe Text Abberations Edit button?
by Darius Kadivar on Thu Jun 24, 2010 02:48 PM PDTIn your Threads ...
Something is wrong with editing and you get all the Junk posted under ... At least Wipe it if you can.
Appreciated ...
invest in halton
by parlingtom on Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:18 PM PDTWe don't want wa on world we want peace. who ever guilty on war btween iraq and iran in1979. we should go forward telling the world no more war.
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AO, here is a link related to how khomeini & irr
by oktaby on Wed Jun 23, 2010 04:33 PM PDTwanted & invited the war. Khomeini knew it would strengthen the islamic radicals, hoped for Iraqi shi't support, and was possibly a quid pro quo deal khomeini et al had made to get the British & cohorts help them to power in the first place
//www.iranliberal.com/soton%20e%20azad/Zahedi...
"... هفته گذشته صدام حسین مرا احضار کرد و پس از بیان اعتراض شدید به دخالتها و اخلالها گفت این وضع برای من قابل تحمل نیست. شما بروید تهران و به اقای خمینی بگویید من اولین دولتی بودم که جمهوری اسلامی را به رسمیت شناختم و اگر اجازه بدهند من (صدام) خودم شخصا به ایران میایم تا با مذاکره اختلافاتمان را حل کنیم اگر مایل نیستند با من مذاکره کنند من یک هیئت عالیرتبه به ایران میفرستم و یا دو لت ایران یک هیئت عالی برای مذاکره به عراق بفرستدتا اختلافات فیما بین حل شود زیرا ادامه این وضع برای من قابل تحمل نیست و من برای خاتمه دادن به این وضع به ایران حمله نظامی خواهم کرد. سپس اقای دعائی تاکید کرد که این ادمی است که حمله خواهد کرد.....اما ایت الله خمینی تا سخن او پایان گیرد تحمل نمیکنند واز جایشان برمیخیزند و برای بار سوم تکرار میکنند که گفتم محلش نگذارید "
OKtaby
self proclaimed major
by Fair on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:56 PM PDTYes, the status quo is indeed the status quo- where it is the IRI leaders who
-call the people of Iran "dirt and dust" (name calling)
-execute people without trial by accusing them of "fighting God" (false accusations)
The attempted denial and downplaying of such crimes against Iranians is a clear example of barking by anti Iran cheerleaders such as yourself.
And such barking is itself (unfortunately) part of the status quo.
-Fair
Dear Mammad
by Irani Irani on Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:01 AM PDTI think you make some good points, but I take exception to a couple things:
Iraq did not have that before the invasion, other than the small circle of Saddam trying to kill the Kurd and Shiites.
Well, that's one heck of a big exception, don't you think? (i.e. Saddam's essentially genocidal Anfal campaign against the Kurds, as well as the Baathist persecution of Iraqi Shia, Iraqis of Iranian descent in the 1970s, and in the 1960s Iraqi Jews as well). Yes, there wasn't the kind of "civil strife" that you mention, but there were mass killings by the state. As you yourself acknowledge, Sunni Arab settlers in Kurdistan also played some part in the displacement and ethnic cleansing of Kurds. It seems clear to me at least that it was Saddam's policies that created the condition and was the "root cause" for civil strife (look at the history I mention above).
I do not know why people like you try to exonerate the US at any cost.
Not true, I opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq and believe that the U.S. bears some responsibility--but NOT all. For many years, I have considered myself a leftist or "progressive" (I've read your articles on antiwar.com; I read Patrick Cockburn's articles; his brother's website Counterpunch, Chomsky's books, articles, and interviews, etc, etc). But, I have become disillusioned with large segments of the Left for what I see as some of their blind spots. But, I guess we can agree to disagree...
Irani
by Mammad on Wed Jun 23, 2010 09:23 AM PDT2. The 500,000 dead children is not a propaganda, even though Saddam took advantage of it. It has been widely acknowledged. There was never any malnuitrition among the Iraqi children even during the 8 year war with Iran.
The sanctions on Iraq in the 1990s were much much tougher than anything SA experienced. For one thing, the US and its allies opposed the sanctions and broke it in many ways. The efforts were led by Chester Crocker who was assistant secretary of state for african affairs. Second, when the vast number of dead children became obvious, the UN and outraged world had to intervene and put in the program of food for oil (just do a bit of research on this). In other words, the program came about, after the catastrophe of the dead chidren and Madeleine Albright's infamous interview became widely known.
5. Of course, anyone who kills anyone bears some responsibility, if not all of it. But, my point is (this is not just what I say, but those who are experts and I consider as progressive say), it was the occupying power that created the conditions for the enthnic strife to flare up. Iraq did not have that before the invasion, other than the small circle of Saddam trying to kill the Kurd and Shiites.
7. What you are saying about the Badr Brigade may be true but, (1) by then the civil strife was aleady in full swing, and (2) again, it was the occupying power that created the conditions.
Let me point out one thing that you forget, but even the US has acknowledged doing it and regretting it. L. Paul Brenner, the US pro-consul of Iraq from 2003-June 2004 kicked all Baathists from the bureacracy and disolved the Iraqi army. That was one of the most important triggering point of the civil strife. All of a sudden there were a huge number of people without jobs and any hope.
Then, the US did nothing when the Kurds began expelling the Sunni Arabs from their areas that Saddam had moved there to. And, remember that the Kurds have been the US allies.
Then, we all know about the Faluja, and other Iraqi cities where the US committed all sorts of crimes against the Sunnis. At the same time, the US was supporting the Shiites anmd the Kurds. That was the root cause of the civil strife. Without a full accounting of this, one can never get a complete picture of what happened. I do not know why people like you try to exonerate the US at any cost.
7. Thank you for the link.
Your point about the exaggeration of the IRI is well taken, and have said the same thing myself many times.
Mammad
What's to bark about, Fair?
by Sargord Pirouz on Wed Jun 23, 2010 02:48 AM PDTWhat's to bark about, Fair? The status quo is the status quo, no matter the name calling and false accusations.
Brilliant Summary of the last 31 years
by Fair on Wed Jun 23, 2010 02:35 AM PDTThank you AO for saying it all so clearly and concisely.
Of course there will be those who try to argue that day is night, but by now the people of Iran see clearly the sham that was dealt them, and they have spoken and want change. The propagandists and regime fascist agents can bark as much as they want.
Fair
No, Iranians will help Iran
by vildemose on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:29 PM PDTNo, Iranians will help Iran become a decent country--just as the Koreans did with South Korea (compare that with the Stalinist North Korea). But for Iran to have any opportunity to become a decent society than the Islamist cancer has to be removed--exactly as Nazism was removed from Germany. Islamism has to be strangulated and then killed; howver, your mumbo jumbo "Third Worldism" will leave Iran to remain the rotten place that it is. On the other hand, you can keep fighting the Great Satan...from the U.S., of course.
Best comment on this thread. To think that political/radical Islam a la Khomeini will save Iranians from being bombed or will result in defeating American imperialism (by substituing it chinese or russian imperialism) or will even save the IRI from any external or internal threats is ludicrous and proves the height of blind insanity that has befallen on the leadership of IRI and its apologists.
The regime and its misguided apologists can only expect the same fate as Saadam or Al-Queda, if not worse by continuing to champion radical Islam a la Khomeini.
II, Numbers killed
by Rosie. on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:14 PM PDTThere was recently a very long discussion here about the numbers killed mostly between Jamshid, Q and MM. It begins here and lasts several pages. Focus on 1988 executions but there's more.
//iranian.com/main/blog/darius-kadivar/crown-prince-reza-pahlavi-q-iranians-inside-outside-ianpage4
Mammad was also on that thread. You've obviously done a lot of research but who knows, there may be something interesting for you. And at any rate, being that Jamshid and Q are participants, at very least it's a 'colorful' read.
Amazing
by TheEnemyHateMe on Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:32 PM PDTSo, blaming it on the ones who threw the bombs is wrong.
منزجر کننده Saddamist حتی نمی تواند فکر می کنم
Mammad, please read my response
by Irani Irani on Tue Jun 22, 2010 09:52 PM PDT2. If Saddam was responsible, why did that not happen even during the war with Iran?
I think AO's response is good, and I'll just add a few things. The sanctions certainly caused hardship, but Saddam's regime did not mitigate those hardships for this own people. Instead, they reaped the propaganda benefits of "500,000 dead children". Once again, how many deaths did sanctions against S. Africa or the embargo on Cuba cause? Saddam's regime was far more ruthless than either of those regimes (as bad as they were) and had no problem causing his own people to suffer for purposes of propaganda.
5. As Collin Powel told Bush, "when you destroyed it, you own it." The U.S., as the occupying power, is and was responsible for the safety and security of Iraq. This is not a claim, but what the Geneva Convention says. So, blaming it on the ones who threw the bombs is wrong.
I know what the Geneva Convention says, but are you seriously stating that Muslims who murder other Muslims in Iraq in the most heinous ways bear no moral responsibility for their actions? Do you really believe that? That is a simple moral truism.
6. We are talking about what happened to Iraq due to the war that began in 1991. Blaming Badr Brigade, for example, is again wrong. See 5.
The Badr Brigade was part of the process of ethnic cleansings and sectarian killings that constituted the height of the atrocities in Iraq in 2005-2007. I'm not saying that the Badr were the worst actors (in fact, it was the Baathists and Sunni Islamists), but the Badr were involved too--including driving Palestinians out of Baghdad since they were deemed Saddam loyalists.
7. I would like to see the link to that article, because I have followed the Cockburn brothers (Alex, Andrew, Patrick), and do not recall Patrick saying that.
Here's the link to the article by Patrick Cockburn:
//www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/rush-for-iraqs-oil-in-defiance-of-bombers-1838778.html
It starts: "Iraq is on course to become one of the world largest exporters of oil after international companies caved in yesterday by accepting low fees to develop the country's vast unexploited crude reserves."
The big winners were Royal Dutch Shell, as well as Total of France and Malaysian and Chinese companies--NOT British or American.
The number of over 12,000 MKO killed between June 1981 and June 1985 can be found on page 129 of Ervand Abrahamian's book "Tortured Confessions". About 2,000 or so people (I think just under 2,000 but over 1,500) were killed in 1979-1980 (former members of the Shah's regime, drug addicts, prostitutes, madames, Jews, Bahais, rebelling Kurds and other minorities, etc). A rather conservative estimate that I've seen put forth for the 1988 killings is about 5,000 killed (I've seen others that state 12,000 were executed in all of Iran in that period). The IRI executes several hundred people on an annual basis, year in and year out. Even if we take conservatives estimates, that puts the number executed by the IRI at 20,000 (i.e. tens of thousands). And does Khomeini bear no blame whatsoever for the Iran-Iraq War? Was he blameless for its protracted 8-year course? And what of the IRI's penchant for using 12-year old boys as human mine sweepers? Is there no moral responsibility for those many deaths?
But if you want to talk exaggeration, well then okay. How many were killed in Jaleh Square (the IRI claims that 15,000 were killed and injured. The true number was 88 people)? How many were killed in the entire Revolution of 1978-1979 (60,000 as the IRI claims? Nope, their own Martyrs Foundation puts the death toll at about 2700, and remember that the Cinema Rex fire started by the Islamists was the single deadliest incident--killing 400 people). The Islamists and their leftist Fellow Travelers absolutely cornered the market on the most astronomical exaggerations about the number of people killed by the Shah's regime. Certainly, you don't dispute that the number of people executed in the first few years of the IRI was exponentially greater than the number executed by the Shah's regime in 38 years? I look forward to your response.
Minutes 7:13-7:26 of the video
by Onlyiran on Tue Jun 22, 2010 09:28 PM PDTencapsulate IRI's existence...this anti-Iranian, and really, anti-human entity.
Great blog, BTW. I agree with the ones who said that the revolution was a bigger disaster. 31 years on and we are back to square one. 62000 warnings have so far been issued to women in Qom for "bad hejabi".
Khak bar sar-e kasi keh az een regime gheir ensani tarafdari mikoneh.
//www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2010/06/100621_u04_hejad_qom.shtml
Everyone else
by Anonymous Observer on Tue Jun 22, 2010 09:00 PM PDTI will respond to other comments tomorrow.
Oktaby
by Anonymous Observer on Tue Jun 22, 2010 08:56 PM PDTVery well said here:
They were both brought to where they are driven by same set of 'old suspects' that include Kissinger, Cheney et al. but via different routs. I think one can readily argue which is more miserable and damaged but both nations long for previous systems and regimes that while undemocratic, were secular. ....... The 'dual containment policy' was successful beyond the wildest imagination of its creators. That success fed the kind of power we see in military industrial complex, zionism and ...As joker (Jack Nicholson) said: 'what this country needs is an enem(y)a.
Nicely done. Superb analysis.
Again, as I mentioned earlier in a comment, I look at the two events as two catastrophic events and look forward from that point on. But, you do have a point that the those two events were results of long standing parallel plans for the two nations.
Mammad
by Anonymous Observer on Tue Jun 22, 2010 08:58 PM PDTOthers have responded to some of your points. I will respond to a few.
1. The number of Iraqi children who suffered as a result of the sanctions is vague and it is, when looked at in its totality, a dubious extrapolation of what happened as a result of the UN imposed sanctions against Iraq. First, the 500,000 thousand dead Iraqi children is a completely arbitrary and manufactured number that cannot be verified with any reliable evidence. The fact remains that money was available for food and medicine purchases and those items were allowed into Iraq during sanctions. Saddam built at least two of his multi-million dollar palaces during the sanctions period. Second, you completely ignore the fact that he was skimming Iraq's oil money, which was designated for food and medicine purchases. Did Iraqis suffer as a result of the sanctions? I am sure they did at some level. Was Saddam just as responsible for those sufferings as the people who imposes them? You bet.
2. Are you seriously claiming that Iraq would have attacked Iran if Shah had remained in power? Shah had the 4th most advanced and well equipped military in the world with full U.S. support. At the time he left, Iran was supposed to take delivery of 4 half nuclear powered submarines, 78 F-16's, multiple naval ships, attack helicopters, and many, many other advanced weaponry. Just five years earlier, in 1975, on Shah's orders, the Iranian military advanced well inside Iraqi territory and forced Iraq into a humiliating peace treaty. Do you really think that Iraq would have attacked Iran if Shah has remained in power?!!!
3. The number of Iranians executed is well over ten thousand. We cannot rely on IRI published figures for a total number. But even one thousand is too many.
4. Iraqi Kurdistan is not independent from Iraq. Iraqi Kurds have unprecedented involvement with the Iraqi central government, and all indications are that they will remain a part of a united Iraq, which, in and of itself, is remarkable given the artificial nature of the Iraqi union and the ethnic differences between them and Arab Iraqis.
5. Permanent U.S. bases are irrelevant to the creations, existence or continuation of a democratic system of governance in a country. Examples: Germany, Japan and South Korea.
IRI (I mean the screen name, not the Regime).
by Rosie. on Tue Jun 22, 2010 08:58 PM PDTThis the comedy show by the best known traitors of third world countries.
Could well be, IRI. Let's wait and see.
and the rest of traitors who gather in the room with no name or face say bah bah, dorost migi dadash.
But you, IRI, use your real name! And that's a very attractive photo of you too.
Then the flip flop chickling called Rosy, the master of following traitors pats them on the back.
You singled me out out of all the people on the thread! I'm blushing.
keep writing. If you dare come with your real name and say what you say.
Did you change your name legally or is IRI on your birth certificate?
Bet none of you dares to say what you are saying here with your real names on the line, know why? because it's stupid, traitor, and pitiful. Sickening.
Well put! Sickening!
Yes, I could be the supporter of a regime that you don't like, but never in my life you see me do what you do. NEVER. Shame on all of you. That's all I have to say.
Just sickening.
______________
Yep, you were right, IRI. Definitely the best comedy show ever! Kind of like Saturday Night Live meets The Twilight Zone.
ps It's Rosie with -ie, not -y.
Mammad
by maziar 58 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 08:36 PM PDT10- IF THERE IS A PROSPEROUS FREE IRAN
healthy,rich as a land of greater opportunities NO ONE will even dream of going OUT of it.
The BAD is for now we're stuck with this backward regime. Maziar
Maziar
by Mammad on Tue Jun 22, 2010 08:04 PM PDTI did not take any position regarding whether Iraq is better off or not. I have no doubt that at least some Iraqis think they are better off.
I am deeply sorry for your loss. My immediate and larger families and I lost lost 4.
10. Precisely. So, the question is, from an Iranian perspective, is it good or bad?
Mammad
Irani
by Mammad on Tue Jun 22, 2010 07:58 PM PDT2. If Saddam was responsible, why did that not happen even during the war with Iran?
5. As Collin Powel told Bush, "when you destroyed it, you own it." The U.S., as the occupying power, is and was responsible for the safety and security of Iraq. This is not a claim, but what the Geneva Convention says. So, blaming it on the ones who threw the bombs is wrong.
6. We are talking about what happened to Iraq due to the war that began in 1991. Blaming Badr Brigade, for example, is again wrong. See 5.
7. I would like to see the link to that article, because I have followed the Cockburn brothers (Alex, Andrew, Patrick), and do not recall Patrick saying that.
Regarding the number of executed: I do not know. The ones that I trust, including human rights activists inside Iran, put the number around 10000-12000 total. I have a world of respect for Professor Abrahamian, and have read his book about MKO. But, if he said what you say, it could be true, although I remain skeptical.
But, even if we assume that what Prof. Abarahamian says is correct, the total number would rise to about 18,000, certainly not "tens of thousands." The total numner of executed of other groups is about a few hundred; I know that for sure. I emphasize that the point is the exaggeration; otherwise, obviously even one executed is too many.
Mammad
Mammad khan I 've a lot of
by maziar 58 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 07:54 PM PDTMammad khan I 've a lot of Iraqi friends ,for as sad the mentioned figures are none of them are against the situation,actually they're greatful that saddam and baathis are eliminated.
from their own prespective and measure of happiness they claim to be in a much better place,hence they all moved here after the 91 desert storm some spending 4-5 yrs in aal rafaah refugee camp,saudi Arabia living in a tent.....
Back to your comment ..
2- could be an inflated number
4- Brain drain has more to do with the avail .opp. in their own country.
5- how about all the one in our own Iran during 80-88 ?
they're already dead including 3 in my own family.
8- It paid back IN FULL the kuwaiti damages ,thanks to the u.s efforts,have they paid any $ to Iran ?
10- BEWARE it may later on escalate to other kurdish regions wanting INDEPENCE. Maziar
Mammad: My response to a few of your points
by Irani Irani on Tue Jun 22, 2010 07:27 PM PDTYou raise some valid ones and some not.
2. At least 500,000 children died in the 1990s by malnuitrion that was a result of the sanctions imposed on Iraq.
Many countries have had sanctions imposed without such a death toll, e.g. S. Africa, Cuba, etc. Is it possible that Saddam and his family who ruled Iraq bore a large share of the responsibility for the deaths or were too they humanitarian to do such a thing?
4. Just as Iran is experiencing a great brain drain, so also is Iraq. Statistics by Iraqis themselves indicate that of the few million elite Iraqis that left Iraq before and after the invasion, few have returned.
I don't know the Iraqi case as well as Iran's, but certainly a lot of the brain drain in Iran occurred as a result of the repressive IRI regime.
5. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children have permanent psychological and physical war scars.
Could some of these scars be the result of suicide bombers being sent into crowded places (another two went off just yesterday)? What about the unbelievable savagery practiced by Arabs upon other Muslims in Iraq (chopping off heads, torturing each other to death with power drills, etc)?
6. The number of innocent Iraqis killed after the invasion is far larger than 100,000 that you quote. Quite frankly, I trust and respest Lancet, the prestigious medical journal, that put the number up to the end of 2006 at over 500,000.
Estimates vary. Certainly the U.S. bears some of the responsibility. But what about the Iraqis themselves? What about the Sunni jihadis from other Arab countries? What about Saddam's followers? What about the IRGC-trained Badr Brigade which ethnically cleansed Palestinians and other Sunnis? What about Sadr's followers? Why do we treat Arabs like children and always hold the Great Satan responsible for everything?
8. Control of Iraq's oil is in the hands of US and British corporations.
Not even remotely true. Please read the reports by Patrick Cockburn of The Independent. Cockburn is from a famous family of leftists, a highly experienced and acclaimed journalist, and has been VERY critical of the war. In actuality, the Iraqi governments latest deals represent some of the most favorable ever by a producing country--Iraq has the potential to profit very, very handsomely from these deals, and the oil companies stand to receive a lot less than they do in other countries. I would think that "progressives" would consider this a definite step in the right direction for oil producers.
10. Kurdistan is a de-facto independent nation.
Is that necessarily a bad thing? I guess it's debatable.
11. The jury is still out on Iraq's democracy.
True. As far as your claim that "the most reliable sources put the number at 10,000" regarding the IRI's executions, Ervand Abrahamian cites a figure of over 12,000 members of the MKO alone killed (a large majority of whom were rounded up and executed) from 1981-1985 alone. That doesn't include all the non-MKO people that were killed in 1981-1985, or all the people executed in 1979-1980, 1986-1988, and to this very day (Iran is the leading executioner in the world, per capita).