Ari Siletz

Ali Jaan

by Bavafa on Sat Apr 16, 2011 04:38 PM PDT

"Foreigners, everywhere in the world, are entitled to less civil liberties, as the natives are"

But this law is not targeting foreigners but Muslims, which happen to be vastly first and second generation French citizens.

Furthermore, at one point one is not a foreigner any more? Doesn't granting citizenship entitle that person full rights and equal treatment.

"What personal freedom is a masked person looking for"

How about the freedom to wear her mask freely?

Are we suggesting that any one that wears the mask does not strive for any [other] freedom or ought to be absent of any personal freedom?

Would a French woman breaking the law by wearing sun glasses the size of a dinner plate and surgical mask?

Mehrdad

Bavafa

by Ali P. on Sat Apr 16, 2011 04:22 PM PDT

Good point.

I wonder how many are native French citizens.

Foreigners, everywhere in the world, are entitled to less civil liberties, as the natives are.

Why would a masked person move to France, in serach of more personal freedom? What personal freedom is a masked person looking for, that in her native country is not offered, but is offered in France? Freedom to change her religion to, say, Christianity, while exercising her freedom of outfit?

Dear Ari,

by Bavafa on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:41 PM PDT

I am delighted to here your voice/reasoning on this and I admit, it has been the most rational voice so far trying to justify this course.

Like yourself, I did much soul searching about this as my beliefs, up bringing and social tendencies goes counter to such practices. Having said that, I am unconvinced by your rational as I do believe despite the strong contrast between the two cultures, specially given the few numbers who practice such Hejab, it is totally counter productive and harmful to their own culture/democracy and also by extension setting up examples for those nations who look up to the Western world in establishing a more tolerant society.

I can not say it better then you have already expressed, that is...

"Without a stronger case, the ban sticks out as an ugly exception to the ideals of freedom"

And unfortunately, a stronger case has not been made so far.

Lastly, I do agree with your last paragraph and I believe this has brought such condemnation from me since they do behave as they are a perfect case of democracy yet proving totally otherwise by implementing such laws. The hypocrisy shades their democracy

Mehrdad

Did a lot of soul searching...

by Ari Siletz on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:19 PM PDT

...on this issue. And still searching. Bavafa, the French Burqa ban issue is a very hard test of our belief in the freedom of expression. So much so that I wish the ban hadn't happened and the problem had been swept under the rug. Having been forced to face it, however, I feel I should help the French case by building a stronger argument in favor of their action than they have given. Without a stronger case, the ban sticks out as an ugly exception to the ideals of freedom. I'm sure you agree with the second clause in the last statement. As to why I would defend the French action, it has to do with feeling as much sympathy for their culture as I do for the Burqa women. The poor French had no idea what they were doing when they allowed such large numbers of Muslims to immigrate into their country.

In an old blog exchange with Danish social economist Dr. Christian Bjornskov in these pages (see here) here's what I wrote to him:

" [your analysis] reveals an underestimating of Islam's sophisticated mechanisms for social cohesion... If social scientists in Europe had a less dismissive view of Islam , they would certainly have taken better measures to avoid the assimilation problems Europe now faces."

We tend to demand more from Western democracies than they are smart enough to handle, even though they are geniuses at it. After all, democracy is a human made tool subject to operational limits, not a divine gift where we can expect perfection and magical immunity to reality. 

Ari jaan, "where are my civil rights?"

by Bavafa on Sat Apr 16, 2011 08:47 AM PDT

You are a Muslim and asking for your civil rights during times that being a Muslim constitute a second class citizen.

Ali P. jaan,

Could it be that they moved and settle there for a hope of a better life, which also included personal freedom? What if this act is exercised by a native French person? Where do you suppose that person should move to, for wanting to exercise her choice to dress?

Mehrdad

What I don't understand...

by Ali P. on Sat Apr 16, 2011 08:16 AM PDT

is that why would anyone who wears a mask, would want to live in a society like France.

 

If I had moved to a nudist community, and their city council had passed an ordinance, requiring everyone to be naked- and assuming I don't want to put all my goods on display- I would just leave, and exercise my clothing preferance elsewhere. 

No Civil Rights For Anti-Civil Rights Fundamentalists

by Azadeh Azad on Sat Apr 16, 2011 01:57 AM PDT

.

. 

 = No Political Party with the Goal of Establishing a Dictatorship Must be Allowed to Participate in a Free Election

................................................ 

Covering the head/hair but leaving the face uncovered is not a security threat and could be chosen by women:

//iranian.com/main/2011/apr-23#comment-398336    

 

Covering the face with a mask / niqab that cannot be taken off in public (= strangers)  is a security threat. Plus these fundamentalist women are going to push for Sharia Law if they are allowed to practice their  Anti-Civil Rights Fundamentalism:

//iranian.com/main/blog/azadeh-azad/masks-niqabs-are-not-everyday-public-clothing  

Cheers,

Azadeh