ariane

Ariane

I agree we should stop this argument because it is not getting anywhere. But let me finish my discussion.

Before I proceed I want to apologize if I gave you offense. I was deliberately showing where those generalizations lead to.

I know what things in Iran are like. It is hell on Earth. We should also criticize ourselves no argument there. But the criticism should be based on reality. It does sicken me to see people gather to watch a hanging. But I do not automatically say it is an Iranian cultural flaw. It is a flaw in a subculture of those people. I live in America and there was an execution of a particularly nasty person. It happened in Florida. There were people celebrating his death all over. But I do not say all Americans celebrate executions some do. Many do not. Iranians are like anyone else. We got honest; dishonest; kind; mean; smart; dumb; religious; agnostic; moral; you name it. 

Any generalization is dangerous because it puts blame on innocent people. Plus if Iranians are as you said how is it that the almost one million Iranian Americans are so well behaved. Is it that they suddenly change in America. You don't just get off a plane and become a different person overnight. The counter argument is that only the best come in but we are not talking about 10 or 20 thousand. We are talking big numbers. You simply do not get that many "top quality" people without a good culture. The underlying Iranian culture is great. That is what is making these people so successful. A love of education and self reliance. That and a culture that does not expect the government to help it. Those are the good points.

The bad points that I see are these:

• We do not work together. Rather fight as shown on IC.
• We are not politically organized. The one organization we do have NIAC is on the receiving end of constant attacks by other Iranians.
• We are afraid. For generations we have been persecuted by our own governments. Whether it be Shah or IRI. We are so used to being attacked we are naturally on the defense. We don't trust anyone.
• Lack of self confidence. As evidenced by self bashing. Some do it literally as in Ashura. Others verbally in form of "criticism". We tend to consider outselves less than Westerners.
• We put too much faith in a grand "savior". Whether it be Khomeini or Imam Zaman. This goes back to pre-Islam idea of "Sayosant". The savior who would fix all our problems. A bad idea that keeps us from acting.
• We put too much faith in the West. I still read people asking America to bomb the Mollahs out. Folks if America wanted the Mollahs gone they would not have installed them in the first place! 

Anyway I think we are probably closer to the same idea than you think.

Best,

VPK

As much as I want to

As much as I want to continue this arguement, I abstain! You're neither accurate or consistent! Don't confuse criticism with racism, fascism, ....

It is our responsibility to crtiticise ourselves. Absolute responsibility! I may, just may, at some point make us wake and become better people!

I suggest you go and live a year or so in Iran, and comeback! We'll have a coffee then and restart this argument. That might give you a better perspective!

Re: Why else should we brand each other a Nazi based on one comm

When someone makes a comment condemning a whole race that is racism. Go look up the definition. 

It is not the truth

First of all I don't agree with your premise. The facts do not bear it. There are about a million Iranian Americans. If what you claim was true there would be a large number of them in jail. There are not. 

Quite the opposite most of us are law abiding citizens. Iranian Americans do not go around murdering any more than other groups. Nor do they break the law in any greater proportion than any other group. Hence you are flat out wrong.

Next to you statement. I did not say you are proposing anything. I said it is the logical conclusion of the argument. If a people are bad and unreformable then waht do you do? 

• Do nothing. That sounds irresponsible.
• Have separate schools and areas for us. They tried it with blacks in the South.
• Isolate them in camps as was done with Japanese in WWII.
• Isolate them in reservations as they did with Native Americans.
• Refuse them entry to "civilized" nations.
• Don't hire them.
• Don't let your kids hang out with them or marry them.
  
• Don't do business with them.
• Final solution.

They are all different degrees of discrimination from nothing to ultimate. It is self defeating. Will not result in improving us but instead in discrimination against us. The shameful thing is this is promoted by many Iranians. Specially on IC. Making it the biggest anti-Iranian hate site. Far worse than neo-Nazi sites like Stormfront.org and so on.

I'm sorry if you're

I'm sorry if you're offended but it is the truth.

don't go overboard with holocaust analogies. Not fair! I'm not proposing any solutions. There simply isn't one, or at least a short term one! We are who we are and we know it! And borderline anarchism is just one of our wonderful traits. I'm simply root causing to see, what happenned to the society I knew as child? Having lived in Iran as a child and as an adult, I believe the problem lies within the Iranian character traits, and yes that includes you and me! Why else should we brand each other a Nazi based on one comment?

Dear Ariane

Borderline Anarchists, that's what we are!

Generralizing aren't we? Maybe you should speak for yourself. I am sick of hearing "we" are this and that. There is no "we". People are individuals. If your argument was to be taken seriously then why not put all Iranians in gas chambers? It is exactly your kind of argument that led to the "final solution".

Mash Ghasem

Long story short: OK.

Culture is not an stagnant phenomenone, but a process in which

values, methods and world views are shaped, formed and reformed.

All and all it's a very complex process. 

What you (ubermensh) as one of the resident apologist of IR forget to take into consideration is the fact that Iran is  a THEORCRACY, ruled by a bunch of blood thirsty mullahs.

IR is not a child of Iranian Revolution. THIS CHILD WAS DEAD ON ARRIVAL. We have been living with a still-born "child" for 32 years now.

Once the Shah's regime was replaced by a caste of clergy, once we had Islamic Republic in power, all that glorious movements against Shah was nought.

Culture in a sick society , based on theocracy is sick.

Culture in a sick Moarchy imposed by foriegners is sick.

Culture in a free society, of the people, ruled by the people, for the people, might have a chance of survival. 

It is NOT the state the [that] forms, shapes, produces

This is not a correct statement: "forget is the fact that : It is the state the forms, shapes, produces and reproduces social norms, ethics and morality on a daily basis, and not the other way arouund."

Perhaps it is possible to make an argument that state can somewhat influence norms, but certainly not produce.

You can broadcast and promote values that are not a part of the culture and it will be rejected. People used to blame Shah for bringing foreign values into Iranian system. Same would happen again by the majority, if society is not grown to accept otherwise.

As mentioned before, IRI is a child of Iranian revolution and social values. They are there because big parts of our culture are so. The people in charge are the ones with the opportunity while others may complain. Others given the opportunity will be in charge and will act the same. Simple as that. 

One of the biggest flaws of Iranian opposition is lack of understanding about Iranian social culture/cultural mix. I believe it is called denial. Ranges of denial vary. Denial could be racial, social, national, or cultural. I see that a lot debating with different people.

THEOCRACY is the name of the game

In neither of the countries you mentioned there's a caste of Clergy ruling in the name of god.

As far as social justice: just  compare income distribution and class polarization in Iran US and Switzerland. Islamic Republic of Hell is the worst when it comes to distribution of wealth and social services. On top of  unjust (to put it mildely) wealth distribution, we have a thoroughly sick social Islamic ethics that basically leaves no room for morality, ethics or good bahaviour.

Now we're suppose to forget all these crimes of the state, how they steal money from people everyday, and  how they impose and reproduce on a daily basis an ethics of jungle, dog eat dog.

What you forget to observe is the fact that: there's a very well organized, well financed machinery behind all social pathology in Iran. It's called the state apparatus.

I have no illusions about the limitation and shortcomings of Iranian people, or any other people on this earth. But what you and others forget is the fact that : It is the state that forms, shapes, produces and reproduces social norms, ethics and morality on a daily basis, and not the other way around. 

Until and unless you realize this fact, you're condemned to remain an apologist for the State and all its crimes: in this instance Islamic Republic of Hell

P.S. US has a population of almost two millions in its jails. It's probably the worst in the world, in that case, not something to look up to!

MashGhassem

I love your poems! Have to disagree with you on the "dont blame people" concept though!

Should we have been a deeper thinking, more reflective, more respoponsible people, such occurences would not have happenned.

We shouldnt compare Iranian society and people with US, Swithzerland,...., It's academically and systematically a non-starter. These nations, at some point, thought and acted alot better than us in crucial interchanges of their history.

We, on the other hand,  have a habit victimizing, blaming others for our misfortunes, just like your namesake, Mashghassem!

Not a healthy habit!

The state is the one organizing the society and its people, not

the other way around.

Like wise before sticking a lable on people's forhead as 'borderline Anarchist' (and what's wrong with that, US was created by a bunch of them), think about the massive state machinery and apparatus that goes to wotk every day, seven days a week, 24 hours a day. And what kind of utter garbage they put out into people's head: since the moment they wake up in the morning to the moment they go to sleep at night, and then you might, just might figure out what's the source of all these social  pathology in Iran: Islamic Republic of Hell

State has the ability to organize society: either into barbarism or civilization .IR and monarchy organized on the basis of barbarism. Don't blame the Iranian people.They've brainwashed you so well, you can't even see who's the main, ultimate culprit for all these crimes in Iran.

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ﻣَﻬﺘﺎب

ﻣﯽَﺗﺮاوَد ﻣَﻬﺘﺎب

ﻣﯽدرﺧﺸﺪ ﺷَﺐْﺗﺎب،

ﻧﯿﺴﺖ ﯾﮏْدَم ﺷِﮑََﻨﺪ ﺧﻮاب ﺑﻪ ﭼﺸﻢِ ﮐَﺲ وﻟﯿﮏ

ﻏَﻢِ اﯾﻦ ﺧُﻔﺘﻪی ﭼﻨﺪ

ﺧﻮاب در ﭼﺸﻢِ َﺗﺮَم ﻣﯽﺷﮑﻨﺪ.

ﻧﮕﺮان ﺑﺎ ﻣﻦ ِاﺳﺘﺎده ﺳَﺤَﺮ

ﺻﺒﺢ ﻣﯽﺧﻮاﻫﺪ از ﻣﻦ

ﮐﺰ ﻣﺒﺎرکْ دَمِ او آوَرَم اﯾﻦ ﻗﻮمِ ﺑﻪﺟﺎنْ ﺑﺎﺧﺘﻪ را ﺑﻠﮑﻪ ﺧﺒﺮ

در ﺟﮕﺮ ﻟﯿﮑﻦ ﺧﺎری

از رَهِ اﯾﻦ ﺳﻔﺮم ﻣﯽﺷﮑﻨﺪ.

ﻧﺎزُکْآرایِ ﺗﻦِ ﺳﺎقِ ﮔُﻠﯽ

ﮐﻪ ﺑﻪ ﺟﺎﻧَﺶ ِﮐﺸﺘﻢ

و ﺑﻪ ﺟﺎن دادﻣَﺶ آب

ای درﯾﻐﺎ! ﺑﻪ َﺑﺮَم ﻣﯽﺷﮑﻨﺪ.

دﺳﺖﻫﺎ ﻣﯽﺳﺎﯾﻢ

ﺗﺎ دری ﺑﮕﺸﺎﯾﻢ

ﺑﺮ ﻋﺒﺚ ﻣﯽﭘﺎﯾﻢ

ﮐﻪ ﺑﻪ دَر ﮐَﺲ آﯾﺪ

در و دﯾﻮارِ ﺑﻪﻫﻢ رﯾﺨﺘﻪﺷﺎن

ﺑﺮ ﺳَﺮَم ﻣﯽﺷﮑﻨﺪ.

ﻣﯽﺗﺮاود ﻣﻬﺘﺎب

ﻣﯽدرﺧﺸﺪ ﺷﺐﺗﺎب؛

ﻣﺎﻧﺪه ﭘﺎی آﺑﻠﻪ از راهِ دراز

َﺑﺮ دَمِ دﻫﮑﺪه ﻣﺮدی ﺗﻨﻬﺎ

ﮐﻮﻟﻪﺑﺎرش ﺑﺮ دوش

دﺳﺖِ او ﺑﺮ دَر، ﻣﯽﮔﻮﯾﺪ ﺑﺎ ﺧﻮد:

ﻏﻢِ اﯾﻦ ﺧُﻔﺘﻪی ﭼﻨﺪ

ﺧﻮاب در ﭼﺸﻢِ َﺗﺮَم ﻣﯽ ﺷﮑﻨﺪ.
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//www.parand.se/tr-nimay-yoush.htm

Abarmard!

I'm sure our paths have crossed in that part of the world!

I couldn't agree with you more! It's the people! That is the problem! Like dirty laundry, Pahlavi regime managed to hid the dark side of iranianism for a while, but it came back and bit him in the back side.

Borderline Anarchists, that's what we are!

The ethical

The ethical landscape of the nation did not change. The garbage took over. The Marxist idea of "power to masses" won! Now masses aka garbage run the nation. The educated; the talented and intelligent are out. The stupid; the uneducated and ignorant are "in". The dumber you are the more you are appreciated. By the way this was the gift of our an-tellectuals. They while financed by Pahlavi grants turned our universities into a cesspool of hatred. JM; MEK and Islamists all joined forces. To bring us from civilization into crap. Thanks guys. Thank you my dear students and professors. Thanks Dr. Shariati; Al Ahmad and Golesorkhi, Good job; Afarin!

The *** holes took a great nation and brought out the worst. Yes we always had these negative parts. But they were dormant. Sort of like a virus waiting to come. Once the breaks aka Shah was gone they came out in force. 

After seeing what happened in Iran I hope masses never get power. *** the masses. They should be subservient to their betters. If you let the trash run the house this is what you get. Am I really angry: yes. 

Better rulers

I agree that having better groups of leaders can ultimately help society to advance. But more often than not the result is not what we expect.

In most cases if the brighter or "modern" (in case of Iran) groups takes charge the result is a more corruption. Here is the reality. Corruption and robbing a nation is not exclusive to a group or class in a society. It comes from societies that have not been upgraded. Those necessary advancement that helps a society to reach higher sense of humanity needs to come from lower levels of social classes. It’s a bottom to up kind of movement required to change a social behavior or understanding. The challenge for Iran resides in its diversity, which also is its strength. For social change that diversity currently is weakness and unifying ideology is religion. If this fails then the country will divide. I hope that we can work to gradually change and make it better.

After many wars, discriminations, tortures, and despotic regimes, most of Europe today is better than average. It may take a bit longer for Iranians to reach higher stage of being but perhaps not as long as it would take for culturally challenged societies. We do have a strong base and hopefully at some point in the near future we will reach our better potential.

For now, step by step climb is better answer than any jumps that could drop us to the bottom, just like the previous revolution.

Sad!

Shame on us, as a poor Nation.

Thanks for this heartfelt blog.

جانیان کوچک

//www.avayeazad.com/foroogh_farokhzad/tavalod...

One more thing

I used to live in North Tehran. My neighbors caught a thief once. All the kids in the neighborhood begun beating him. The poor bastard was begging the police to take him away. If not he would have been dead.

I was one of the few who was not beating him although I did have the chance. Figured jumping over a wall was not a capital offense. Pretty sickening for us to do it but did not stop the people. 

Abarmard & Maziar

The IRI is a representation of the lowest of our culture. We are never going to fix those vile urges in us that make us kill. Those that make a normal man become a murderer or a criminal. Rather we need to control it.

No society is without its psychopaths. All humans have the dark parts of their minds. Yes we have to shove it under the rug {a nice Tabriz will do!} and forget about it. That is why we need laws to keep us from misbehaving. That is also when religion acts its best. Preventing us from doing the worst: Ten Commandments that kind of thing. But it is the system that allows us to exercise our worst urges. A good system would discourage it;

IRI does the opposite. It promotes them.

Maziar Jan:

If America gets its way the "Kaboos" will get a 100 times worse. They have our worst in mind. You want President Rajavi? That it what they want: a mental case for us.

*** America and EU. No thanks and we don't need them.

We always were like this

Islamic Republic and its people are "very Iranian". Their character, lies, exaggeration, politics is our culture. When Ahmadinejad talks I feel like I am talking to a guy in Tehran, be it a cap driver, engineer, or merchant.

The Islamic Republic is the creation of Iranian people and it is Iranian in nature. All the flaws of this government are directly related to our culture.

Ariane, as a kid passing through Golshahr or Mehrvilla area, I witnesses a killing of a man who was caught attempting to have sex with a girl. The people got him in a corner and everyone participated throwing a kick to his face. It was one of the scariest images a child could see. This behavior has been transformed and the system punishes based on what people desire.

Today if you get caught with the same "crime", your punishment is different depending where you get caught. Some people here blame the system not realizing that the backward guy who runs the system is his own neighbor, uncle, friend, merchant... These are Iranian people. My argument has been that we need to fix our attitude and social flaws rather than system alone.

In most cases if the government doesn’t punish harshly, the people will. That’s why you see people gather to watch a “criminal” get hanged. To them justice is being served and nothing more.

KABOOS

for all the past 3 decades hopefuly be over with.

some times I dream of july 80 my last summer vacation from Rome to .....

And wish that I never left .

Maziar

Dear Ariane... I remember all those nice little suburbs...

I probably went to high school with many of your neighbors....Babak High School...

The barbarics have always been there, Ariane. They were confined to Deh'e Karaj (south of Karaj), Zoorabad, and many other townships that housed poor, uneducated, backward, and clients of mullahs...

In one word, Islam! That's what transformed Iran to the cesspool of the humanity that it is now...

Not a dream

Which was a dream and which a nightmare you pick. I remember all of it. Does sound like a dream but it wasn't. Honest to goodness I sometimes wake thinking I am back home. Revolution never happened and Shah is there.

And then that reality hits me like a hammer in the head. I wake up feeling like sh***. Wishing I was back dreaming. I know dreams may be recreated. It is the turn of the wheel. As Ferdowsi said "Tofoo bar to ay charkhe gardan tofoo". 

I agree with COP! The

I agree with COP! The problem is much deeper than to be modified overnight!

Iranias, in general, and in masses, have a phobia for discipline! It's hard work and we are short term short cut type of nation! The revolution has intensified this by making shabiness institutional!

So COP, you're right in saying that what we lived was the dream and this is the reality! But the heroes of my dreams and peole of my childhood, were kind hearted, compassionate, Iranians, real people! Where did they go?

No VPK

When there is a fundamental problem, "crawling under the rock" only hides the root cause. It will actually make things worse as is the case with what we see today in our ancestarl land. Let's not hide the issues we have by blaming only a "group" of people pretending that 70 million are hostage to a handful. It is actually the other way around.

bee tamadoni (ye moghe daashtim, vali dige nadarim mesle inke), bee savadi, khorafat kasife deeni, are a few basic reasons why we are where we are today.

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IRAN FIRST

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No COP

We always had both kinds of people just like anywhere. It just happens that the nuts got out and are running the show. It is partially our fault. Some for not fighting. Some for supporting the IRI. Others did oppose it and are not at fault. It is a disgrace and sickening. But it will pass and be replaced with something better. That will happen. It is just a matter of time.No despot or dictator has managed to keep power forever. Then the same gang watching it will crawl back under rocks.

Dear Ariane

I was in Mehrshar just back in June. It still is a nice place to live although you are right about its transformation.

you ask:

"How did a compassionate, fun loving, and easy going nation turn into such a godless barbaric lot? How could a nation, who can never arrive for any appointment on time, wake up to see someone die at 4:30 AM? How did we get to become so fucked up??"

It seems that we may be seeing what is REAL now and what you and I were exposed to as teenagers and kids was the dream. Hard to believe that people can change that much; except perhaps having the perpencity for barbarism to begin with.  

The people today who are at the helm of our nation have been "Allowed" to do the things they do by the same people who gather at 4:30 AM for the "show". 

Everyone says that it was the people who wanted a revolution: well they've got it.

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IRAN FIRST

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Thanks Ariane for a great blog

Very sad but the answer to your question needs more than a comment or two. Books should be written about this question, or maybe at least articles can attempt to answer it.

Dear ariane

Thanks for this blog. It's unfortunate what has happened to that wonderful area. We were neighbors, we lived in Mehrshahr.