You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus!

IRANdokht jan: Here's my explanation for whatever it's worth

by Monda on Thu Dec 17, 2009 04:57 PM PST

Referring to your:

"Our choices aren't to be a US-sixties style feminist or anti-feminism. There are better ways to fight the inequality and Iranian women are doing just that in Iran! The sixties are gone! the mentality is not the same even here, and it was never ours to begin with. The women's role in Iran is important and they're fighting the regime a lot harder than men have in the past 30 years."

I don't label Azadeh's stance or effort through her expressive art as only "feminist", let alone the 60's version of it or the American model of it. Please You don't lecture me (on feminism) either. I appreciate and respect Any Action by Iranians in diaspora that promotes the much deserved attention to the horrific civil rights issues in Iran. As I said, This Is the Time to be Very Vocal in any shape or form. As much as One Can. Azadeh does it Best in her own style, whether it triggers you as purely "feminist"/ too ideological, does not matter in the big scheme of things. As you said women inside Iran have had much more important tasks at hand, and they have accomplished many monumental tasks while we only vented on iranian.com.

As far as the meanings and values assigned to women in Dehkhoda which we know has been only one valid source of reference for decades, I believe as I said. On the way to shifting perspectives on human rights, there is a much urgent call for review of assigned values to our gender. You or I are far from those definitions. That's as far as Dehkhoda debate matters to Me. Modifying the language Will help with modifying the actual positions. Chomsky has sensible things to say on the topic. I'm sure you know.

And here's my honest feedback on the possibly upsetting tone that I used in my previous comment to you. I admit that I was triggered by you agreeing with jaleho's condescendingly undermining Azadeh's intension as well as the Men's in Solidarity campaign. I have read JalehO's hateful and uncivilized manner in which she feels entitled to while expressing her opinions on blogs. This is an open forum, I accept her views and some times even respect her source of passion for knowledge. Even though I can't Always trust her sources or intensions.

I think this an appropriate space to share about my disappointment with Jaleh (thus you can see more clearly why I get triggered when you join her tone). I have practically known her most of my life. I cherished our friendship and respected her views until her arrogant insensitive remarks (read anger) to me emerged, recently, in person, directly through conversations, or through mutual friends and of all places on iranian.com! My last straw was when she accused me to be naive enough to celebrate those young people's' deaths and tortures during their immediate post- election protests. [On that thread I had a left a quick comment about the emotional impact (despair mixed with exhilaration) I felt by the revolutionary shoaars rampant on the streets of those days. So that's that.

You know IRANdokht, I am not completely accustomed to this virtual communication thing at all. I mean I can't write worth anything on top of it with things going on in the background i often comment out of my appreciation for the blog/effort/action as it touches me in my core. If something doesn't hit me where I need it, I let it go. That's just my style. I don't lecture, I don't condescend and my life's goal is to be as authentic and present as I can ever be. I would not leave a comment about how stupid, useless, naive or banal people are, anywhere, not only iranian.com. I think my job is to only show appreciation when I truly feel it with all my heart and soul. And I have felt blessed with all the Amazing material I read on iranian.com. And not so blessed with some boring, nonsensical, repeated to death, or simply out of the range of my interests. In which case I don't bother to vent about or put down.

Now... I'm done with my dose of iranian.com for now :o) but i will check back tonight, looking forward to reading your acknowledgment of what I just wrote to you here.

P.S. as technically-challenged as I am, I have no clue as to why my previewed comment is so uninterrupted/jammed. Oh well, I hope you can still read it without too much pressure on your eyes.

P.S.S. I just read your reply. Either you didn't read me well enough or you chose to ignore my main points. I do not care to be in anyone's Hate Club, no matter how popular it may be. I simply do not care for the styles of venting "misplaced anger" in a public domain.

Monda jan

by IRANdokht on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:43 PM PST

I am so glad that you admitted your tone and the hostility had a personal/emotional reason behind it. When I explained that I am not seeing what it was in Jaleh's use of "mardanegi" and "namard" to prompt such personal and hateful comments from Azadeh, you took it as my "hambastegi" with your ex-friend and that initiated the pep-talk on feminism...

(thus you can see more clearly why I get triggered when you join her tone)

Well I don't know what "tone" it was but thank you for being honest. 

Speaking of tone: Now if you go back and read Jaleh's first comment and then follow it up right away with Azadeh's comment, if you set aside your personal issues with Jaleh, you'll find Azadeh's assumptions and emotionally charged comment over the top too.

Jaleh: But I hear your too Azadeh jan, it is high time that Iranian men, inside and outside of Iran show real "mardanegi" and fight some in solidarity with Iranian women. Compared to what Iranian women have offered in the battle, many Iranian men should look at themselves as "namards."

Azadeh: a "Naamard" which means "A WOMAN, a NON-MAN, a DISHONOURABLE person."
...the misogynistic concept of Mard (Man) as an Honourable individual versus NAAMARD (WOMAN, NON-MAN) as a Dishonourable one.

Then later Jaleh writes a short comment and criticizes Azadeh's method and understanding of the way Iranian women fight for their right.

Azadeh loses her temper and starts her comment with a completely personal attack:  
1)Do not call me "jan" or "dear," as these words coming from you (and the readers know who you are) make me sick in my stomach.

Monda jan, you are absolutely free to witness this exchange and how it's escalated to this level and even take the side of the person who has lost her temper and is attacking the other one simply because you disagree with her too. 

I won't agree and condemn what I perceive as the truth too, just because it's fashionable to hate Jaleho! I was called a hezbollahi by one of the oh-so-sweet-poets on this site when I asked people not to insult Jaleh and instead, learn to debate her if they think she's wrong and they're right. I have seen how some people on this site are doing whatever they can to fit in and buy themselves some compliments too. I was insulted privately and publicly for standing my ground for what I think is right.

I know Jaleh pretty well by now and I know she doesn't hold my views and beliefs against me. I also know she still has many friends who are anti-AN and anti-IRI. I admire her for keeping an open mind and not allowing her views on Iran politics change her personal relationships. One thing I also understand is that she's passionate and very capable of making her point, so when she's insulted, I don't expect her to turn the other cheek. 

Best

IRANdokht

IRANdokht jan: Here's my explanation for whatever it's worth

by Monda on Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:06 AM PST

Referring to your: 

  "Our choices aren't to be a US-sixties style feminist or anti-feminism. There are better ways to fight the inequality and Iranian women are doing just that in Iran! The sixties are gone! the mentality is not the same even here, and it was never ours to begin with. The women's role in Iran is important and they're fighting the regime a lot harder than men have in the past 30 years."     I don't label Azadeh's stance or effort through her expressive art as "feminist" let alone the 60's version of it or the American model of it.  Please You don't lecture me (on feminism) either.   I appreciate and respect Any Action by Iranians in diaspora that promotes the much deserved attention to the horrific civil rights issues in Iran.  As I said, This Is the Time to be Very Vocal in any shape or form.  As much as One Can.  Azadeh does it Best in her own style, whether it triggers you as purely "feminist"/ too ideological,  does not matter in the big scheme of things.  As you said women inside Iran have had much more important tasks at hand, and they have accomplished many monumental tasks while we only vented on iranian.com.   As far as the meanings and values assigned to women in Dehkhoda which we know has been only one valid source of reference for decades, I believe as I said. On the way to shifting perspectives on human rights, there is a much urgent call for review of assigned values to our gender.  You or I are far from those definitions.  That's as far as Dehkhoda debate matters to Me.  Modifying the language Will help with modifying the actual positions. Chomsky has sensible things to say on the topic. I'm sure you know.    And here's my honest feedback on the possibly upsetting tone that I used in my previous comment to you.  I admit that I was triggered by you agreeing with jalehO's condescendingly undermining Azadeh's intension as well as Men's in Solidarity campaign.  I have read JalehO's hateful and uncivilized manner in which she feels entitled to while expressing her opinions.  This is an open forum, I accept her views and some times even respect her source of passion for knowledge.  Even though I can't Always trust her sources.   I think this an appropriate space to share about my disappointment with Jaleh (thus you can see more clearly why I get triggered when you join her tone).  I have practically known her most of my life.  I cherished our friendship and respected her views until her arrogant insensitive remarks (read anger) to me emerged, recently, in person, directly through conversations, or through mutual friends and of all places on iranian.com! My last straw was when she accused me to be naive enough to celebrate those young people's' deaths and tortures during their immediate post- election protests.  [On that thread I had a left a quick comment about the emotional impact (despair mixed with exhilaration) I felt by the revolutionary shoaars rampant on the streets of those days.   So that's that.     You know IRANdokht, I am not completely accustomed to this virtual communication thing at all.  I mean I can't write worth anything on top of it with things going on in the background i often comment out of my appreciation for the blog/effort/action as it touches me in my core.  If something doesn't hit me where I need it, I let it go.  That's just my style. I don't lecture, i don't condescend and my life's goal is to be as authentic and present as I can ever be. I would not leave a comment about how stupid, useless, naive or banal people are, anywhere, not only iranian.com. I think my job is to only show appreciation when I truly feel it with all my heart and soul.  And I have felt blessed with all the Amazing material I read on iranian.com. And not so blessed with some boring, nonsensical, repeated to death, or simply out of the range of my interests. In which case I don't bother to vent about.   Now... I'm done with my dose of iranian.com for now :o)  but i will check back tonight, looking forward to reading your acknowledgment of what I just wrote to you here.   

P.S. as technically-challenged as I am, I have no clue as to why my previewed comment is so uninterrupted/jammed. Oh well, I hope you can still read it without too much pressure on your eyes.
   

Language, thought, culture, history

by Princess on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:27 AM PST

Azadeh jaan,

The self-proclaimed Mr/s Dehkhoda seems to be surprisingly unfamiliar with how the Persian language works. The fact that often in Farsi things are not spelled out but are implied seems to escape this esteemed gentleman/woman.

The fact is history and context of words and how they are used are very important. The relationship between language, thoughts and cultures is not a one way relationship. Of course, words are formed to express ideas and languages are developed around cultures, but in the same way, thoughts and cultures are formed as a result of how language and words are composed and used. 

Your example of Rumi's poetry and how he defines "zan", as well as the example you provided about how in everyday language "naa-mard" is equated with "zan" are points in case. The fact that in high literature one might not find an example where "naa-mard" is explicitly defined as "zan" is almost irrelevant. Anybody with a little bit of knowledge of Farsi would know exactly what you mean.

Further, I still have not seen anybody provide a reference in our literature or elsewhere where the term "naa-mard" is used by a man to address a woman. Is that because women are incapable of being cowards? Surely not!

Thanks for your efforts to challenge such concepts that have become so engrained in our culture that even people with the best intentions do not realise what they might be re-enforcing by defending them. 

 

Azadeh,

by Dehkhoda on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:32 PM PST

.

.

1- If someone wants to find out the meaning of the word "unman" in Merriam-Webster Dictionary, or any other dictionary, they will open the dictionary and go to the word "unman".  They will not go looking for "unman" under the word "woman", or hundreds or other words that they might think "unman" might mean.  Once they go to "unman" they will find out that it means "to deprive of manly courage..."

Similarly, if I want to find out what "naamard" means in loghatnameh dehkhoda, I will go to the word "naamard"; I will not go to "zan", or any other words that I might think it means.

2- Under the word "naamard", there is one entry with several definitions, which all of them relate to "coward, cowardice, and cowardly".  But, nowhere in loghatnameh dehkhodah under the word "naamard" it says that it means "zan".

3- You said "naamard" means "a woman", and mentioned that there are thousands of places that support your claim.  I asked for a few references.

4- You gave one reference, loghatnameh dehkhodah, for the definition of "zan", which I discussed before regarding the problem in looking in "zan" to find out what "naamard" means.

5- Of the thousands of places that you mentioned that it would support your claim, you referenced only one poem from Molavi that talks about "zan" and "nim zan", and nothing about "naamard".

6- As far as I can remember, going back to elementary school, any time anyone said "naamard" it meant "coward" to boys who heard it.  If I betrayed my schoolmates and they said "vagha'an khili naamard hasti", it meant that I was coward, and not that it meant that I was a woman.

7- In loghatnameh dehkhodah, it is very common for some words that have several deferring meanings to have several entries.  For example the word "ghazi" has twenty-two different entries to define the word, and at least a couple of hundreds of other entries with its combination with other words, or as names.  "naamard" has one entry, as I discussed before.   

8- loghatnameh dehkhodah is being continuously updated.

9- New definitions, or new words is continuously being added to loghatnameh loghatnameh.

10- If you feel that one of the meanings of the word "naamard" is "zan", you may want to suggest it to the loghatnameh dehkhodah, without calling them chauvinist, and they might include it to the loghatnameh.

11- loghatnameh dehkhoda is "the largest Persian dictionary ever published. The complete work is an ongoing effort that entails over forty-five years of efforts by Dehkhoda and a cadre of other experts.  It was first printed in 1931. Dehkhoda also was helped by prominent linguists Mohammad Moin, Jafar Shahidi, and Dabirsiyaghi.  The work became so significant that in 1945, a bill was proposed in the Majles, signed by numerous Members of Parliament, including Mohammed Mossadegh, to allocate a special budget and staff to completing the project."

To say that "It is silly to think that Dehkhoda needed to say: NAAMARD = ZAN (NON-MAN/COWARD=WOMAN)..." is unconscionable.  Also, it is insulting to say that "all we have to do is to use our brain...".  Whereas all I asked you do was to provide some references that would show "naamard" means "zan", and nothing else I asked of you.

Thank you Azadeh.  Keep up the good work. 

IRANdokht jan, I will have to re-read your comments

by Monda on Wed Dec 16, 2009 03:56 PM PST

when I can focus better.  I may have very possibly misunderstood you. For now I'm sorry if my tone was hurtful.  I would never dare to outcast anybody!

I do know about myself that temperamentally I am highly distractible (read my temperament comment on the whore-mother blog, if you want).

I need to get back to work.  So I will be more thoughtful next time I write here -  If in fact I do find my comment inappropriate or in-genuine.

 

Monda jan

by IRANdokht on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:37 AM PST

I guess you misunderstood what I was saying and maybe other people's stance too. Maybe you should read them more carefully. Please don't go lecturing me as if I am against women's rights in Iran or anywhere else for that matter!  I am really surprised that you would take the comments Jaleh and I have made as anti-"feminine movement".

There is no doubt that Iranian women have fought and still fighting for equal rights (thanks for giving me examples of the discriminatory laws!). Who argued with that fact?

Our choices aren't to be a US-sixties style feminist or anti-feminism. There are better ways to fight the inequality and Iranian women are doing just that in Iran! The sixties are gone! the mentality is not the same even here, and it was never ours to begin with. The women's role in Iran is important and they're fighting the regime a lot harder than men have in the past 30 years.

What you're seeing with the Majid Tavakoli line of protest is not a protest against hejab. I am sorry if a lot of women have misunderstood the point. This solidarity that men are showing by wearing hejab is not a woman's movement. Even some of those who forced themselves to take a picture with some sheets over their head, consider wearing women's clothes a humiliating experience and want to show sympathy for their brother who was forced to do so.

Besides all these facts, my objection to the tone used in Azadeh's comment still stands. The other issue was nitpicking on old texts and expressions and trying to read too much into words like "mardanegi" and "namard". Dehkhoda proved that namard does not mean that women are of a lesser moral standing.  Attacking Jaleh for using those words which she did using quotes was totally uncalled for and too emotionally charged. I am sorry if you see a call for less emotions and a more civilized approach as being "undermined, teased and harassed or being labeled". 

Please go back and read the comments and tell me which part of what I said made you think I am against equality for women or was disrespectful to you or Azadeh to deserve being outcasted by you.

Iranian women have bigger fish to fry than sit there and pick words out of people's expressions or old poems and cry about it. They're shirzan and their method of fighting for their rights takes a lot more courage!  ;-)

Thank you

IRANdokht

Reading Dehkhoda Dictionary intelligently

by Azadeh Azad on Wed Dec 16, 2009 01:11 AM PST

|| ازدواج .
- به زنی آوردن ؛ ازدواج کردن . نکاح بستن . (ناظم الاطباء). زوجیت . (یادداشت بخط مرحوم دهخدا).
- به زنی خواستن ؛ خواستگاری کردن .
- به زنی کردن دختر یا زنی را ؛ او را به زوجیت گرفتن . ازدواج کردن با آن زن یا دختر. (یادداشت ایضاً).
- شاه زن ؛ ملکه . (فهرست ولف ).
- شیرزن ؛ زنی چون شیر توانا و بی باک .
- مرد و زن ؛ مذکر و مؤنث . (ناظم الاطباء).
- ناپاک زن ؛ زنی بدکار و ناخویشتن دار.
- نیک زن ؛ زنی نیک و پارسا.
|| نامرد. جبون . ترسان . بیدل . کم جرأت .(ناظم الاطباء).
- زن بودن ؛ کنایه از حقیر و کم مایه و بی ارزش بودن :
آنکه نه گوید نه کند زن بود
نیم زن است آنکه بگفت و نکرد----------------------------- مولوی   ------------------------ //www.loghatnaameh.com/dehkhodaworddetail-4fa22697cceb41ebba562c11cf0bd01f-fa.html -------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- ------------------------------- There is a reason why the word NAAMARD /NON-MAN is defined on a page about ZAN / WOMAN, otherwise it would be completely meaningless and absurd. As the reader can see, immediately after the definition of NAAMARD, we see the definition of ZAN, and then a poem by Mowlana that clearly connects the two definitions. It is silly to think that Dehkhoda needed to say: NAAMARD = ZAN (NON-MAN/COWARD=WOMAN) for this widespread cultural idea to be proven to exist, when all we have to do is to use our brain and not to be in denial of the male chauvinistic nature of the Iranian culture. --------------------------------- Azadeh 

IranDokht jan, They do have way bigger fish to fry But

by Monda on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:29 AM PST

If the Iranians in Iran could let the old gender-stereo-typing "just let it lie" paradigm linger, they would have! However, it seems to be very appropriate time to cleanse the system from Hejaab and other male-oriented Islamic/religious nonsense.  This is the time IranDokht to speak out about all the maltreatments that women have endured since Islamic Dictatorship came to power.  Hejaab being only one issue, Then permission from husband or father for major decisions in a human's life, such as aborting a baby resulting from rape by the brother or that very father to being valued half of a man in legal matters to being stoned to death for being in love, begir or boro ....

The savage treatment of civil rights by IRI has inherent within it the Women's Rights as well.  You see that Right?

Do you also see that Any paradigm shift by a culture can only occur by correction of values assigned to its Citizens? 

My scale of importance on equating zan with weakness, zaleel, etc. (covered in Dehkhoda) may sound redundant to you and your (on this issue) like-minded friends on this site.  However, the fact remains that I am entitled to my beliefs as Azadeh is to hers, without being undermined, teased and harassed or being labeled "feminist".  To be honest, feminist or not, fact remains that inequality happened under our nose for many generations and not many of us took it seriously.  

But only Now is the time to take All civil rights issues Very Seriously. A) Please explain to me how could assault of women due to their looks and gender be any less important than poverty, in my stance in diaspora. (I send little bit of money to the poor and the neglected when I can, Big Deal. But I mention it to let you know that I am aware of the more "Real Issues" in Iran.  I am a human and I feel those too even from this distance, as many of us do.  We do what we can.)   

B) If you and I were in Iran, wouldn't we be fighting for our rights as humans?

Regretfully we can't. (I have adjusted to that justification with much difficulty, believe me.) 

If you and I were poor, in terms of basic survival means, then you and I and Azadeh would be voicing Those Issues on this site.  Right?

We do on this site and with our energy, What We Can.  Nothing more. What do you say aziz?

 

 

Dear IRANDokht,

by Jaleho on Tue Dec 15, 2009 09:50 AM PST

Thanks for catching the quotation marks, and appreciating REAL Iranian culture!

Foozul jan, right, to each its own level of intelligence :-)

 

Jaleh khanoum - dam-e shoma garm

by Fouzul Bashi on Tue Dec 15, 2009 09:43 AM PST

Iranian women fight like LIONS, they don't get into silly western feminist CATfights!  

 

Monda jan

by IRANdokht on Tue Dec 15, 2009 08:46 AM PST

Using two words to define the two genders is not "promoting gender segregation"! I am really surprised at all this nonsense and feminism BS. Iranian women have bigger fish to fry and they are fighting for their rights instead of being hung up on a few words and ancient concepts.

IRANdokht

Azadeh I love your art work and ...

by Monda on Tue Dec 15, 2009 07:40 AM PST

your intention behind it.

I also appreciate Dehkhoda's time in clarifying the archaic Iranian cultural delusions promoting gender segregation. We do know better!

Azadeh,

by Dehkhoda on Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:02 AM PST

.

.

I have copied and pasted the related section from loghatnameh dehkhoda

 

ازدواج .
-به زني آوردن ; ازدواج کردن . نکاح بستن . (ناظم الاطباء). زوجيت . (يادداشت بخط مرحوم دهخدا).
-به زني خواستن ; خواستگاري کردن .
-به زني کردن دختر يا زني را ; او را به زوجيت گرفتن . ازدواج کردن با آن زن يا دختر. (يادداشت ايضاً).
-شاه زن ; ملکه

. (فهرست ولف ).
-شيرزن ; زني چون شير توانا و بي باک .
-مرد و زن ; مذکر و مونث . (ناظم الاطباء).
-ناپاک زن ; زني بدکار و ناخويشتن دار.
-نيک زن ; زني نيک و پارسا.

نامرد. جبون . ترسان . بيدل . کم جرات . (ناظم الاطباء).
-زن بودن ; کنايه از حقير و کم مايه و بي ارزش بودن:
آنکه نه گويد نه کند زن بود
نيم زن است آنکه بگفت و نکرد

 

As you can see, under the bullet ezdevaj, eight vaajeh are defined. Words that are being defined are in bold

Under the bullet naamard, jeboon, tarsan, bidel, kam jor'at; one vaajeh is being defined, zan boodan.  In here zan boodan, is being defined, not naamard 

naamard itself is defined somewhere else.  naamard definition  was copied and pasted in the previous comment, which does not say naamard means zan

Source:

//www.loghatnaameh.com/dehkhodaworddetail-4fa22697cceb41ebba562c11cf0bd01f-fa.html 

Azadeh, you seem angry for not being sophisticated

by Jaleho on Tue Dec 15, 2009 05:54 AM PST

enough to note that the terms "namard" and "mardanegi" were put in quotation marks precisely because that reaction was EXPECTED from YOU! Most readers in this site know that as well, not just me.

And even after you had time to calm down from the expected "shock," you're still not sophisticated enough to notice that I was not backing off from the use of those word the way I believe it is used in Iranian culture (as Mr. Dehkhoda tried to make it clear to you). Rather, I was trying to emphasize how off your type of old and stale western feminism is from the vibrant Iranian feminism of today's Iranian fighting women inside Iran.

Sorry, the young women fightig in street of Iran are more the type of present day moive makers, scientists, actresses, and journalist (some like Massih we have seen in this site too). They don't waste their time by fighting what Molana, a revered poet by all Iranians, might have said in the poems written a thousand years ago, and poems that has formed our culture! Believe me, 99% of Iranian feminist don't give a shit about the words "namard" or the use of "mardanegi," they care about how many women get to go to universities (hopefully without hejab, or else with it), have equal rights in the work force with men, and have equal rights in divorce and dress codes.

Your trying to fixate on some harmless word which are engraved in our culture is pretty silly actually. But more imortantly, it shows that you're delusional if you think your fight is THEIR fight.

Azadeh jaan,

by Princess on Tue Dec 15, 2009 04:18 AM PST

Very interesting point. Thank you!

Just out of curiosity, to those who say the term "naa-mard" does not necessarily equate women and cowardice, not even implicitly, I wonder how often we hear the term "naa-mard" addressed to a woman in our culture. I am just curious, because I don't recall ever having heard that.

... and how often do we hear a particularly "baa orzeh" or accomplished woman being referred to, "Yaroo khodesh yeh paa marde!" or "She doesn't need a husband, she needs a wife." As if the ability to take care of oneself and others is the monopoly of men only. The sad thing is that I have even heard this coming from women!

Of course, that does not mean every Iranian man or woman thinks that way, but one cannot deny the bias in the historical and larger cultural context both as reflected in our literature and in everyday usage of the language.

I wonder if anybody can share the etymological information on naa-mard.

with or without pink hedjab ;)

by Fouzul Bashi on Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:55 AM PST

 

While the diasporic fighters are at it, it wouldn't be a bad idea to raise their voice against sanctions too, which - Never mind the hedjab- would take the PANTS off the fighters in Iran!  Pink Hedjab is optional, though welcome if it attracts attention to diseased bodies and empty stomachs ;)

From Farhang-e Dehkhoda

by Azadeh Azad on Tue Dec 15, 2009 01:58 AM PST

|| نامرد. جبون . ترسان . بیدل . کم جرأت .(ناظم الاطباء).
- زن بودن ؛ کنایه از حقیر و کم مایه و بی ارزش بودن :

آنکه نه گوید نه کند زن بود
نیم زن است آنکه بگفت و نکرد

مولوی .

.  .  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  As you see here, NAAMARD (NON-MAN) means COWARD as well as BEING A WOMAN. And the above Rumi's poem clearly expresses the idea that a person (read: a man) who doesn't talk and doesn't act, is A WOMAN. And a person (read: a man) who talks but doesn't act, is HALF A WOMAN. -------------------------------------------- Also, it is the SPIRIT of the words and expressions WITHIN THE SOCIAL CONTEXT that needs to be considered, not the word in isolation or even when the roots of the word are forgotten. ------------------------------------------------  It is true that often a person who uses the word NAAMARD does not mean to say WOMAN, but the historical root of the word as well as its usage and applications in older times, reveal its true meaning. The true meaning of the words like NAAMARD remain in the collective unconscious of a people even if it's obvious meaning has been shrouded by habits and repetitions and over-use.  ---------------------------------------------------------------------- And why going too far: those of us who have lived in Iran for a long time, remember people of urban lower classes using the expression, "Folaani (the guy) is not a man; he is woman" when they want to put down a man for whatever reason (usually when the man is timid or cowardly.) -------------------------------------------------------- ----- It's now one o'clock in the morning and I have to go to bed. If I find some free time tomorrow and if I perceive that the readers are receptive and honest (with themselves), then I might write some more. ------------------------------------------------ ------------ ----------- ----------- Azadeh

آزاده،

Dehkhoda
Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:58 PM PST

کجا گفته شده <نامرد> یعنی <زن>؟

لطفاً از آن هزاران نوشتجاتِ فارسی، فولکور، و مترجمات که ذکر کردید پنج تا را در اینجا با ذکر منبع نشان دهید.

Other references:

by Dehkhoda on Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:37 PM PST

.

.

Farhang Moaser (Haim) English-Persian

coward- (آدم ترسو، نامرد )

Farhang Moaser (Haim) Persian-English

نامرد- coward

فرهنگ فارسی عمید
نامرد-  ترسو، بی غیرت 

 

نامرد

Dehkhoda
Tue Dec 15, 2009 07:31 AM PST

.
.
نامرد. [ م َ ] (ص مرکب ) بی مروت . (آنندراج ) (فرهنگ نظام ). || ناکس . بی غیرت . (ناظم الاطباء). بی حمیت . بی عار و ننگ . بی تعصب . بی رگ . بی درد. بی عار. که مردانگی وشجاعت و دلیری ندارد. دشنام گونه ای است :
 
دمان طوس نامرد ناهوشیار
چرا برد لشکر به سوی حصار.

فردوسی .

فردا که بر من و تو وزد باد مهرگان
آنگه شود پدید که نامرد و مرد کیست .

ناصرخسرو.

به نزد چون تو ناجنسی چه دانائی چه نادانی
بدست چون تونامردی چه نرم آهن چه روهینا.

سنائی .

و این مشتی بازاری غوغائی خارجی طبع ناصبی ... نامرد را چه محمل باشد.(کتاب النقض ص 415).
بر چنین قلعه مرد یابد بار
نیست نامرد را در این دز کار.

نظامی .

اگر غیرت بری بادرد باشی
وگر بی غیرتی نامرد باشی .

نظامی .

هرکه بی باکی کند در راه دوست
رهزن مردان شد و نامرد اوست .

مولوی .

تا بدین دام و رسن های هوا
مرد تو گردد ز نامردان جدا.

مولوی .

عهد کردیم که جان در سر کار تو کنیم
گر من این عهد به پایان نبرم نامردم .

سعدی .

دنیا که در او مرد خدا گل نسرشته ست
نامرد که مائیم چرا دل بسرشتیم .

سعدی .

نامردم اگر زنم سر از مهر تو باز
خواهی بکشم به هجر و خواهی بنواز.

سعدی .

|| بزدل . (آنندراج ). ترسو. (فرهنگ نظام ). ترسو. جبان . (از ناظم الاطباء). بددل . ترسنده . بی ثبات و بی استقامت :
مرد جانان نه ای مکن دعوی
زآنکه نامرد مرد جانان نیست .

عطار.

گر کار جهان به زور بودی و نبرد
مرد از سر نامرد برآوردی گرد.

پوریای ولی .

|| حریص . آزمند. (از ناظم الاطباء) : نامردان پای آبله کردند و مردان تن آبله کردند. (کیمیای سعادت ). || آنکه بر زنان قادر نباشد. (آنندراج ). عِنّین . (منتهی الارب ). مردی که قادر بر جماع نباشد. (فرهنگ نظام ). کسی که با زن نزدیکی نتواند. (ناظم الاطباء). که مردی ندارد. که فاقد رجولیت است . که بر انجام دادن وظایف زناشوئی توانا نیست :
 
خاطرم بکر و دهر نامرد است
نزد نامرد بکر بی خطر است .

خاقانی .

با دانش من نساخت دهر آری
دانش بکر است و دهر نامرد است .

خاقانی .

آنکه مرد نیست :
نه هر کو زن بود نامرد باشد
زن آن مرد است کو بیدرد باشد.

نظامی .

Source:

//www.loghatnaameh.com/dehkhodaworddetail-7530c8fee5f64e95845de598830b6edb-fa.html
 

with all due respect

by IRANdokht on Mon Dec 14, 2009 09:59 PM PST

When someone puts quotes around a word, they are most likely using someone else' words, mostly to make a point.

All the insults and animosity here seems unnecessary and over the top.

Men who think wearing women's clothes degrades a man, will only understand the concept if it's put into words they are accustomed to i.e. "mardanegi" and "namard".

That was how I understood Jaleho's comments.

IRANdokht

JalehO

by Azadeh Azad on Mon Dec 14, 2009 09:20 PM PST

1)Do not call me "jan" or "dear," as these words coming from you (and the readers know who you are) make me sick in my stomach.

2) The words "NAAMARD" and "MARDAANEGI" were uttered by you because you believe in this rubbish,  because your mind-set belongs to the Dark-Ages, to the Islamic Military Dictators of Iran.

Once you found yourself cornered by my logical and rational explanation, you had no choice but to resort to the absurd and childish tactic of pretending to have deliberately used these words to prove that I am out of touch with the Iranian people! What an utterly stupid and childish thing to hear from the mouth of a grown-up woman!

3) Do not insult the Iranian culture by equating it to your backward values and those of your Military Dictators in Iran. My feminism and other progressive views are quite up-to-date and in harmony with those of my daughters and sons inside Iran.  The Iranian youth, whose values I share, are changing the Iranian culture and history at this very historical moment. They are questioning out-dated expressions, Islamic values and especially Sharia Law, as I do. If anyone is out of touch with our dynamic Iranian culture, it is you, AN, Khamenei and Basiji rapists. You are indeed on the wrong side of history!

I wrote enough for the benefit of the readers. I won’t be wasting my precious time any longer, exchanging with a desperate woman who knows the end of her Islamic Military Dictatorship is nigh.

Azadeh

Dear Azadeh, I guess I was successful

by Jaleho on Mon Dec 14, 2009 07:14 PM PST

by my intentional use of the words "namard" and "mardanegi" to show how your type of arguments completely lacks the undestanding of cultural intonation of those words in Iranian culture.

You have lived isolated from realities of Iranian culture, and your feminist "push" although very old in the west, is too unrelated to "Iranian feminism." That makes your kind of claim of aligning your casue with the casue of those who fight INSIDE Iran very artificial.

....

by yolanda on Mon Dec 14, 2009 07:10 PM PST

 Hi! Azadeh Azad,

      Thank you for your post! Thank you again for your blog!

Delaram Banafsheh (Yolanda)

"Cactus in the Desert"

JaleO

by Azadeh Azad on Mon Dec 14, 2009 07:15 PM PST

Majid Tavakkoli, a brave student, who spoke against the Islamic Military dictators of Iran and For Freedoms, Democracy and Iranian Republic, was arrested, tortured and forced into a female Hijab to be photographed, because the Fascist Rulers of Iran believe that wearing women’s clothing of any kind belittles a man, turning him (in their own stupid mind) into a "Naamard" which means "A WOMAN, a NON-MAN, a DISHONOURABLE person." This male chauvinistic, sinister idea belongs to the Dark Ages, of course!

By wearing women’s Hijab, the progressive Iranian men in Diaspora not only demonstrated their solidarity with this brave male student, but also implicitly rejected the misogynistic concept of Mard (Man) as an Honourable individual versus NAAMARD (WOMAN, NON-MAN) as a Dishonourable one.

You, JaleO, who support the Islamic Military Dictatorship of Iran, have made an utterly reactionary and misogynistic comment, asking the rest of the Iranian men to SHOW REAL MANHOOD (Mardaanegi) and declared that those progressive men in Diaspora who wore Hijab "should look at themselves as NAAMARDS (=WOMEN, NON-MEN, DISHONOURABLE!)

I’d like to point out to you that the belief in the above sinister concept demonstrates your utterly reactionary mind, shared by the Fascist Islamic Military Dictators of Iran. "REAL MAN" and "REAL WOMAN" are constructed by forces of domination and oppression that wish to keep both genders in-chains and powerless!  

I'd also like to point out to you that it would be an HONOUR for any intelligent, mature and progressive man to be called a WOMAN or NAAMARD, as not only the Iranian women are the forth-runners of the fight against your Islamic Military Dictatorship in Iran, but also in the 21st century, the forces of the Feminine Principle (which exist in both males and females) are precipitating a dramatic change in the world for the better.

I'd like to finish by stating that there are individuals who pretend that the word NAAMARD does not mean WOMAN. However, they are unequivocally wrong! There are thousands of instances in the Persian Literature, Folklore and Traditions that support my understanding of the word "NAAMARD" as "BEING LIKE A WOMAN!"  No one who is for the Women's Rights ever uses this word for belittling people. 

Azadeh

Mally-Jack and the sad truth!

by IRANdokht on Mon Dec 14, 2009 06:25 PM PST

Ms Azad thank you for asking the question that's on my mind for a few days already "After showing their solidarity with detained male student, Majid Tavakkoli, will the Iranian men in Diaspora finally wear the Pink Hijab in solidarity with millions of oppressed Iranian women inside the country?"

Here comes Mally-Jack with a comment titled "Never" and then he starts throwing a fit with a few anti-hejab slogans only to send the women in diaspora to the streets to wear hejab for one minute and then take it off?  Oh brother....

Mally jan

May I ask what you suggest the gentlemen be doing while the women in Iran and outside Iran continue to fight? 

Would the Iranian men ever show solidarity with the Iranian women? If they think like Mally-jack does, then most likely NOT!

IRANdokht

Dear Abarmard,

by Jaleho on Mon Dec 14, 2009 05:59 PM PST

I hope you are as well balanced and fine a personality as you come out of the screen! It is always a pleasure to read your comments.

Regards.

......

by yolanda on Mon Dec 14, 2009 04:17 PM PST

Thank you for your cartoon and proposal! Thank you for using your talent to make a difference!!! I am glad that the hejab campaign is so successful!!

Take care!!!! 

Delaram Banafsheh (Yolanda)

"Cactus in the Desert"

Pressure is always good

by Abarmard on Mon Dec 14, 2009 03:32 PM PST

As long as the nation doesn't lose sight of the possible foreign plots. As we fight for our rights, we also have to watch not to be used. We have to care about the entire population and realize what it is that the people want.

Other than that I believe that Iranians showed a lot of class during their disagreements and demonstrations. These events will certainly be beneficial for the entire society and hopefully we can leverage the experiences to move forward.