You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus!

Azadeh jaan my argument is within context.

We're talking within the context of prostitution where it is illegal and where it is legalized or decriminalized.

I'd agree that the researchers have spent time with the prostitute and have concluded that 99% of prostitudes do not want to remain prostitute.

I'd also presume that these are more or less the prostitutes who started in prostitution as an illegal activity and then later moved into the legalized/decriminalize part.  Or they never even bothered.  There is so much stigma for a prostitute as well as having a record if you're ever arrested.  So once you get into this business it's very hard to get out even if you wanted to.  Presumably this is one of the reasons and the human rights violations that is causing countries to legalize/decriminalize prostitution.

I'm not trying to belabor the point but in a legalized "business" I can see women wanting to do this type of work.  I can tell you that 99% of people want to have a great life!  Many don't want to work in cubicles all day or shovel for living for meager money or clean up toilets or other kinds of work or perhaps work in unsafe working conditions but they do because it's a way to make a living.  Humans were not born to work!

So bottom line my point is there is a difference in countries like Germany or Sweden, although I don't know if it's nationalized or not, where one can argue there is a better "choice".  This is not going away no matter what you do.  So you try to make it better.  Like lottery for example, gambling is bad, but they've made lottery legal and they're making lots of funds for education, etc.  Drugs is bad but it is legal in Amsterdam and people can go and try which means less usage and becoming counch potatoes/pot heads 24/7 like in US!  And no beheadings for drugs ala Mexican drug cartels.

It's ok to disagree but the different arguments remain valid. 

PS these dicrimilalization/legalization words are a mouthful, sorry if I mispelled them along the way!

Everything is sacred

Dear Esfand

You say: 

"...about judging the prostitutes, I meant why it's NOT ok for chauvinists to paint prostitutes as lazy, dumb, etc. but it is ok for others to judge them because they don't realize their human rights are violated?"

Those others do not judge the prostitutes' situation. They have worked with them for many many years, have done research work among them, and have tried to help. 99% of the prostitutes do not want to remain prostitutes. There are reasons for that. These reasons are not articulated as "my human rights are violated," but they mean the same thing. 

Based on the above fact, your assumption about the others judging the prostitutes and their situation is wrong.

Your argument is very weak, because you can say the same thing about the great majority of the people of the world regarding their poverty. They do not articulate their inhumane conditions as "violation of my human rights," but they do know that the way they live is not tolerable.

Cheers,

Azadeh

Esfand jan, so you think you know me better

than I know myself? If I say that I have elements of shyness, then I must really have. Otherwise, why would I say it? Any way, it does not matter. A person shyness or assertiveness will not change by what others will write in a comment. Also everything is comparative. Like growing up twin, I though I was not assertive and when I told that to an old classmate, she said that she though I was. I was comparing myself to my twin and she was comparing me to average student. 

I didn't mean all 10 men!

I meant you ask the first guy and he could say yes and that's it you're done!  If the 1st guy said no but the 2nd guy said yes that's it you're done.  This goes on until the 7th guy say yes!  I meant the chance of a woman is 70% vs man that is less than 0.01%!

Anyway, if you "think" you're a mixture of shyness and assertiveness then you're kidding yourself!  You're not shy!  Focus on the assertiveness!  Good luck!

Everything is sacred

Ok Esfand jan, I agree that

A shy person will take chances. I have even seen it happen but asking 10 men in bar for sex is a big chance. You are correct about going back to shyness. Now what is worse than shyness is when a person is a "maajoon" of shyness and assertiveness. This is worse since others have hardly any idea how to deal with this one. I think I am more like this. I have even had a previous boyfriend tell me that I am like this.

Anahid jaan out of desparation shy people take "chances".

A shy woman or man will eventually take a chance and still remain shy afterwards.  S/he will have sex but will go back to being shy afterwards.  When push comes to shove everybody takes a chance!  Even having sex with a prostitute is taking a chance of contracting STD but the sexual desire and nature is very strong. 

Everything is sacred

Esfand jan, about the shy woman in your comment

Esfand jan, in your last comment, you write about a shy woman who goes and propositions 10 men in a bar for sex. Such a woman is not shy.There are other adjectives for her but shy is not one.

Taking chances on shyness.

Azade jaan I said in the context of law and "crime".  That means all kinds of crimes whether it is property or human beings.  Accessory to murder is a crime too and it involves human beings.  The point is prostitution is either a crime or it isn't.  Is it?  If your answer is that it is a crime perpetuated by men against women and it is the men who should be punished then I'd say that'd be fine as long as women don't engage in the crime.  We may never see eye to eye on this and that's fine.  My point is the definition of the crime in the context of law.

As far as loopholes and sex trafficking for example sex traffickers can train women in these countries and once "trained" ship them to other countries with horrific consequences.  Or they can forge documents and make underage girls into prostitution in these countries.  And other loopholes that the criminal minds can find!  Once you have an imbalance law the sky is the limit!

As far as shy men vs shy women, well I asked the question in the other blog but no one responded!  I said I just don't know.  In US young girls find boyfriends one way or another and by and large women have their first experience no later than their early 20s.

Give you an example, if a guy goes to a bar and propositions sex to 100 women in that bar and he is not good looking, chances are he'll struck out on all 100.  If he does it again night after night, he may end up with one acceptance!  Maybe!  Now if a woman propositions sex to 10 men, chances are 7 of them will say yes.  So between a shy man and a shy woman, a shy woman has this option that the shy man doesn't.

By the time we get to a society that men and women in large numbers see psychologists and seek psycotherapy we have reached eutopia and don't need to worry about prostitution!  That's not going to happen so I don't see talking about it for the society at large.  For one thing they rather spend the money that they don't have on other things.

Now about judging the prostitutes, I meant why it's NOT ok for chauvinists to paint prostitutes as lazy, dumb, etc. but it is ok for others to judge them because they don't realize their human rights is violated?  That there may be some who are dentists, lawyers, teachers and other well educated women and consciously decide to become a sex worker?  If there are some, albeit a small minority then they have a right to choose this profession and not be judged one way or another.

Bottom line once we're talking about legalization and decriminalization we're walking away from the argument of 100% violation of women's human rights.  From that point on we should see the pros and cons of these two practices.  In legalization I don't like the idea of part time prostittes having hard time paying taxes and bills.  I think the luxury tax should be paid by the Johns.  Also, prostitutes shouldn't pay more taxes because of their profession.  If they make more money they shouldn't be penalized for it. Their work is more difficult than being a minimum wage type work.

BTW Bavafa jaan the American model is Nevada and legalized prostitution except it is not nationwide.  Although, the German model is not nationwide either.  The Iranian model is 100% shameful and gender apartheid.

Everything is sacred

"prostitution is a practice which leads

to serious ...... blah, blah."

And I'm Mary Magdalene.

Why Can’t Shy Boys be thought of like Shy Girls?

Esfan jan, 

Your examples of drugs and stolen goods do not apply to prostitution for the obvious and simple reason that unlike Stolen Goods and Drugs, Women are human beings and not merchandises.

I do not agree that the Swedish model would lead to loopholes and helps bring worse human trafficking. And you did not explain How?

I do believe that Decriminalizing Johns, as you are suggesting, would lead to trafficking, because pimps and traffickers contact the prostitutes and the potential prostitutes as Johns.

It is obvious that you agree more with the German Model than the Swedish Model, albeit with the same job re-training of the prostitutes as the Swedish Model requires.

You say, “Who needs it (prostitution)?  Those who are shy, want to have sex but don't know how, divorced men who can't or don't want to find another wife, those who want to remain single but want to have sex. “

And my answer to you is this: Regarding the need for sex, what do Shy Girls, girls who want to have sex but don't know how, divorced women who can't or don't want to find another husband, those women who want to remain single but want to have sex, do?

Why are you adopting this double standard? I think you have unconsciously fallen into fallacious patriarchal reasoning without realizing it.

What is the solution that I offer? For both groups of shy girls and boys, I suggest visiting a psychotherapist, a sex-therapist, or a friend, and after overcoming their shyness, I suggest looking for a love partner.  For divorced men and women, I suggest one - night stand or a relationship with someone who agrees that there won’t be any commitment. There are plenty of women out there who hate to commit.

Finally, I have not judged prostitutes in any negative way. So, why are you responding to something that no one has implied and I have never said? Being against the violation of the prostitutes’ rights as human beings does not constitute a negative gaze. None of the people who are looking for a solution to the issue of prostitution judge the prostitutes, except the religious moralists, atheist moralists, male chauvinists and Johns themselves. Research shows that 99% of prostitutes prefer not to do sex work or to do something else.

You speak of a kind of prostitution where there is no abuse. My position and that of many who bring up the Swedish model is that prostitution is the emotional abuse of the prostitute. I know that there are female masochists out there who love to be humiliated, but the society should help them find a shrink instead of using these vulnerable women as men’s garbage can.

Yes, there is no perfect solution. We have to be satisfied with the best solution, which is, from the point of view of the prostitutes and women’s interests, the Swedish Model.

I am waiting for your response regarding Shy Girls. Why not think of Shy Boys the same way we think of Shy Girls in most societies?

Cheers,

Azadeh

Well written and very educational

Admittedly, neither solution is perfect and short of castrating all those offenders, there might not be a perfect solution to rid the world of this problem but till then ...

Based on this info (emphasizing the facts provided here only) I like the Swedish model better then the German model but arguably the German model is far better then the US or Iran model.

Mehrdad

Azadeh jaan in the context of law this is not fair.

When something is "illegal" both the perpetuator and the outlaw are commiting a crime.  They call it being an accessory to a crime or obstruction the justice. 

When a thief is selling a stolen good and someone buys it both are committing a crime.  When a drug dealer is selling drugs and someone buys them both are committing a crime.  Same goes for other crimes and the "crime" itself is not the issue the fairness of the law is.

I can also see that this could lead to worse human traffickings using loopholes.

I'm all for educating prostitutes to learn other trades, education, healthcare and basically a better future.  You are still viewing this as human rights violation which it does not have to be.

If the idea is to abolish prostitution then by all means make it a penalty for Johns!  That'd solve the problem in no more than a few months!  

In my view the idea is to address it and make it available for those who need it.  Who needs it?  Those who are shy, want to have sex but don't know how, divorced men who can't or don't want to find another wife, those who want to remain single but want to have sex.  Plenty of people who are not there to abuse anyone's human rights.

And the prostitutes well, do we have to judge them?  Do we have to say she does this because she is poor?  she is dumb?  she can't find a job?  she is lazy?  Is it always one or two reasons?  If the answer is no and there is even one person who wants to do this because she likes it then making it a crime for a John to be with her is not right.

I don't think there is one magical solution because if it was all countries would follow it.  The fact that different countries have different solutions says enough about the fact that at least they're trying different solutions for the human race at large. 

Everything is sacred

Esfan Jan

"the prostitutes are not prosecuted but the Johns are!  So who are the prostitutes supposed to do business with?!"

The answer: With whomever takes the risk of being caught!

The whole point of the above law is to diminish / eradicate prostitution by telling men: hey, you can't get satisfaction on the suppression of another person's human rights!

This law comes with re-education, drug and psychological treatments and re-integration of the prostitutes into other occupations.

Do you still see a problem in this model?

 Azadeh

Yes there can be holding areas for up to 10,000 Johns!

The key is to line up like sheep and behave!

Everything is sacred

Esfand Jaan, after they are done

these Johns, will they be able to catch a game between Esteghlal and Perspolis too?

Looks like both decriminalization and legalization have problems

I think decriminalization sounds better but the biggest problem I see is that the prostitutes are not prosecuted but the Johns are!  So who are the prostitutes supposed to do business with?!

Legalization sounds too restrictive and as the other blog said a part time prostitute will have problems paying all the fees and taxes and stuff.

Perhaps a hybrid of legalization and decriminaliztion would be better.  Like men could go into these places like stadiums or bus stops and line up like sheep!  Then the prostitutes can walk and choose their Johns.  The John can accept or deny an offer but when they get out of the holding area the John can pay the tax and then the two of them can do their business! 

Everything is sacred

Excellent Model

Thank you for the information.