Azarin Sadegh

Re: Sasha nad Rosie

I think I'm being garevly misunderstood.
I think the major contribution of mankind to civil society is establishment of Law & Order. The stronger the rule of Law is, the more stable a society is. I wholehearterdly believe in it. My point is a general one as it relates to justice. Unfortunately, there's no good definition of justice in today's world. There's always a conflict of interest between individual justice and social justice. I do not want to get into this discussion which is a major topic, but I humbly request you paying attention to two questions I have:
1. In heneral, Do you think that the punishment for teens promote or prevent teen rage and violence?
2. Please elaborate on Ali's situation so everyone knows the circumstances we're dealing with. What is his story, what is victim's parents story and what is Cour findings? (Until I knwo these, all I can want for Ali is patience, the Authorities to respect International Law, ask God to give him peace, and You & I to pursue justice on earth.

...

I'm not trying to justify what is happening in IRI.......I think lots of attrocities going on in Iran are based on dogma and stems from being at odds with and in defiance of "West". This is not only fair or just but also it gives a black eye to Islam. The establishment is very complex in IRI and justice is a very subjective element based on some individuals' mindset.

LostIdentity

A signatory is a signatory.  Once they sign they must enforce.  If they don't enforce and you support that then you say  they are COMPLETELY above ANY law.  And then you have Zahra Kazemi. 

Humans never know all the facts about anything.  Until recently we thought the world was flat and the sun revolved around us.  Concepts of modern physics erode every possible conception we've ever held about the nature of truth.  Still we must function as social beings within a consensus reality.  Politically that is called law.  If a nation agrees to a law and violates the law, the nation then is declaring itself above ANY law.

This holds for every nation, US, Iran, France, Malaysia, Congo, Guayana, Tahiti.  It IS the global perspective. It really is that simple.  Can't you see it?  It isn't nuanced. 

If Iran were not a signatory the argument would be different.  Iran is a signatory.  Ali can't be executed. I'm sorry but there's just no legitimate way to counter this argument. 

LostIdentity.........Global.........subjective

 LostIdentity: "Judging is a major flaw in my system of thought

                   unless one knows all the facts, and that is

                    impossible."

Sasha:  It seems that in the case of Ali the same case exists.

              Did they really know all the true facts when they

             imposed the death penalty on him?

LostIdentity: "My stance is a more of a global than a subjective

                   one"

Sasha:  You do realize that the more global stance is not

             too impose the death penalty which is due to many

             countries signing the United Nations Convention on

              The Rights of the Child, which I do believe

              Iran was a signator.Also, a more objective

             view would be to ban all death penalty. A

              subjective view would be to pick and

              choose who gets the death penalty and

                who does not.

solh

Dear Rosie, My stance is a

Dear Rosie,
My stance is a more of a global than a subjective one. Let IRI aside, I am talking about justice and accountability. I think it's not fair to society (and the unfortunate souls who get terminated blindly or knowingly) to promote teenage rage. Hope my point is clear.

Judging is a major flaw in my system of thought unless one knows all the facts, and that is impossible.

Azarin.........it is complete and I have submitted it.

 As per my word I have completed the blog and I have submitted it. Rosie T. thanks for everything. :o)

I will continue to pray for Ali.

 solh

It is not hard to judge and it should be judged

There is "nothing sacred" about the age of 18 except that it is a line in the sand that is drawn to somehow distinguish between children and adults, and is becoming more and more recognized world-wide as the "age of majority."  Let's leave Ali aside for a moment.

Iran is a signatory to a UN agreement that this line in the sand should be respected so that children aren't executed.  IRI is very sleazy because they keep teenagers in prison when they are charged with crimes at the age of minority and don't condemn or execute them until they are majority age, so that it goes under the radar of world opinion. Because to execute an Ali at 16 would cause more outrage than to wait until he's 21. So they keep the teenager rotting in jail for five years, then execute.  But the UN agreement theIran is  signatory to says no executions for crimes COMMITTED under 18.

 So if you sanction this execution (even if Ali is guilty as sin...) you are saying that IRI has no obligation to observe ANY laws, international or national, that it legislates or is signatory to.  You are.  You either accept the whole package or not.  If you say IRI has a right to do this, you say Zahra Kazemi was justified, Atafeh was justified, internment of numerous journalists is justified, stonings are justified, you justify the whole nine yards.  You have to buy the whole package.  Either they have to respect the law or not.  And Lord knows Shariah law in Iran is stringent enough; if they don't have to respect this UN law, they don't even have to respect ThAT.

Same holds for my country.  Bush entering Iraq without UN approval paved the way for Abu Ghraib, plans to attack Iran and much more.

 What is sacred about drawing a line in the sand is that it provides structure which we in the ever-changing flux of human existence  can observe to function as social beings.  That's what law is based on.  Drawing lines in the sand.

International law is the best we have to offer so far. Anyone who cares to disagree me on that or call me a cultural Imperialist, I invite you to choose whether you would prefer your child to be stoned or hanged from a crane in a public square.
Robin

Re: No need to Judge

David,
Not so easy;
You already judged by saying that. You have neglected the value of life of a victim. The kids these days are very smart. They know what they are doing. It will be easier for them to do more killing if they know there's no payback. Have you seen less shootings in States?

What is so sacred about age "18"?

I feel for Ali's life but "fairness" is an independent state of mind!

No need to Judge

ALI WAS 16 AT THE TIME AND SHOULD NOT BE EXECUTED. NO NEED TO JUDGE. PERIOD.

Things like this is hard to

Things like this is hard to judge. We hear all this through media and I'm not sure how much of it is truth and how much of it is based on sentiments. It's so hard to see loss of life of a human being. What system of values one need to employ to judge?
I mean, Ali has caused someone die; He does not accept it. How can we judge what is right without knowing details?
Well, we really don't want to see another life lost, but it's easy for us, bit I bet it's not easy for the other boy's parents.

I would rather leave myself out of it since I can not deliver justice. Does that make me a less responsible human? The question is: Is human life sacred? Or, delivering justice is sacred? Or, "Nothing is sacred"?

How you can help:

Please refer to the two urgent action calls by :

Stop Child Executions Campaign  and  Amnesty International

and here is more information about How you can Help.

Thank you for Caring

SCE Campaign

SCE Campaign blog had the following listed......

APPEALS TO: Head of the Judiciary His Excellency Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi Ministry of Justice, Panzdah Khordad (Ark) Square, Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran Salutation: Your Excellency Email: info@dadgostary-tehran.ir (In the subject line: FAO Ayatollah Shahroudi) Fax: +98 21 3390 4986 (please keep trying, if the called is answered, say "fax please") Leader of the Islamic Republic His Excellency Ayatollah Sayed ‘Ali Khamenei, The Office of the Supreme Leader Islamic Republic Street - Shahid Keshvar Doust Street Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran Email: info@leader.ir Salutation: Your Excellency COPIES TO: President His Excellency Mahmoud Ahmadinejad The Presidency Palestine Avenue, Azerbaijan Intersection Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran Fax: + 98 21 6 649 5880 Email: dr-ahmadinejad@president.ir E-mail: via website: //www.president.ir/email/ Director, Human Rights Headquarters of Iran His Excellency Mohammad Javad Larijani C/o Office of the Deputy for International Affairs Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Justice Building, Panzdah-Khordad (Ark) Square, Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran Fax: + 98 21 5 537 8827 (please keep trying) and to diplomatic representatives of Iran accredited to your country. PLEASE SEND APPEALS IMMEDIATELY.

solh

Rosie T. ......So glad you asked.........

 Azarin and those on this thread, what has been done in the past that has proven to be successful in helping someone on death row in Iran to be saved from execution? We need real solutions.  

solh

David, and others / Ali

I'm glad you weren't talking to me.  It wasn't at all clear because of the sequencing of the posts.  I ANSWERED Justice's post and was criticized for my reply.  Also, I am not infrequently accused here of being an agent of the IRI, as ridiculous as it may sound to you. So it wasn't at all clear but that's the nature of I'net so sorry for the confusion.
I haven't forgotten at all aboBut ut Ali.  So, WHAT SHOULD WE ON THIS WEBSITE DO?  NOW?  TODAY?  TO SAVE THIS YOUNG MAN?
SUGGESTIONS?

Robin

To Rosie

NO,If you simply looked at the subject of the first post "Iranian system is the best", by "JUSTICE"!!! , you would have easily known who I am referring to without asking me!

But having said that, I am reminding you and others that those who support IR tend to change the subjects that they don't like discussed with matters unrelated to the posts/discussions/objections/etc.. (even if they have to resort to profanties) and often I see readers totally forget what the post subject was about and start arguing a whole new subject/trap that was intentionally created ....

It is a tactic that has succesfully been used in Iran and abroad for years to distract and divide.

I am just reminding readers that the subject of this post was a child (and 170 others at least) who are facing execution by IR and that these kids need our help NOW

Now of course you are free to talk or argue about US , Palestine, Latest Fashion or car model.. and I am happy that you are among the lucky humans who are FREE to express your opinion !

To David

Are you accusing me of being an IRI supporter intentionally distracting from core issues?  If I ignore you your seeming accusation stands, and if I don't ignore you I "prove" you right, because I'm distracting again...so....let's be brief:  Were you  referring to me?  Yes or no?

To aaj sr...

I'm Ddoing what I'm doing about it.  I'm addressing "Justice" and people WITHIN the IRI (and without) who support the regime and trying to tell them I HEAR them and I UNDERRSTAND WHY they are against the US system of justice, but that they DON'T HAVE TO GO the other way and support the same and worse abuses in the IRI.  That is my point and that is what I'm doing...my post was addressed to Justice.

For anyone who chose to read it (I mean READ it not scan it) beside Justice, my point to YOU is that you should ALSO understand where these people are coming from when they voice opinions which SEEM so absurd, such as "US should adopt IRI system."  It's a REACTION to the HYPOCRISY of the Western legal system and its abuses. 

It DOESN'T have anything SPECIFICALLY to do with Ali's imminent case, but it has EVERYTHING TO DO with the overarching issue. I can join Amnesty International, I can join many organizations.  I am a member of Greenpeace, Planned Parenthood, and the ACLU.  In the Iranian context, what I choose to DO lately is attempt to dialogue with those whose opinions oppose mine and persuade them that perhaps I'm right after all.   Nine out of ten won't listen but the tenth might, and how do you know that one won't try to effect change WITHIN the IRI structure?  Or shift "sides" altogether? Or spread the good news?  How do you know? Do you have a crystal ball?

I hope that explains things for you.

To Rosie T: What's your point?

Azarin and thousands others fighting to put their last final pressure on IRI and justice department, for hope of stay of execution of a child's life and you are writing an essay about something not much relevant to the core issue AT THIS IMPORTANT MOMENT. Flatly, and with due respect; if you disagree with execution of minors, then come forward and do something about it.
You can write to authorities inside/outside Iran, ask your people to do the same IF you agree with the cause. There are agencies like Amnesty( www.amnesty.org ) , Human Rights Watch ( www.hrw.org ) www.stopchildexecutions.com plus a dozen more organizations including UN's, where you can voice your support. Every step makes a big difference

"intentional distractions" : a commercial break by IR supporters

...AND NOW: back to our regular programming....

 and the subject of this post which was about Ali Mahin-Torabi facing imminent execution !

To Justice....

The "West" is out of control.  In the past week we had two public shooting sprees in the US, in one of which the shooter left a note saying he did it to become famous.  In my opinion, a lot of the movements in developing countries that are anti-"western" developed in response to a deep understanding of the utter decadence and chaos that the "West" has wrought upon itself and the world; the violence, the war, the rape of the environment, in general what seems to be a collision course to planetary destruction. The legitimacy of such reactions to the dangerous excesses of the West must be openly scrutinzed and discussed in the light of day; otherwise no solution is possible.  And so in this way you make an important contribution by stating your views here on a forum where you know they will be very unpopular.

Nevertheless, movements in developing countries which would seek to counter the violent excesses of the "West" through a return to Medievalism and tribal norms of law cannot be construed as anything but a REACTION.  It is important, inasmuch as a REACTION sheds much light on what it is REACTING TO, but it remains nonetheless a reaction.  A reaction is dependent on what it reacts TO; it has no autonomy and agency of its own. 

Actually it seems it was the ancient Sumerians who first established a judicial system whiich separated law enforcement from personal (family, clan and tribal) norms of retribution.  They had this marvelous insight several thousand years ago that justice CANNOT be "personal." However, the Assyrians and Babylonians who followed them and adopted a lot of their culture, rejected this concept and returned to the "more klan-based systems.  So this is a very OLD discussion. And anyway you can't separate this ONE issue you mention from the whole package...that is, the entire IRI system of "justice." 

So, if you seriously posit  the IRI's "justice" system:  stringing children from cranes in public squares, beating women for showing strands of hair, imprisoning homosexuals and dissidents. making women's testimony count less than a man's in court, stoning people, etc. is an ANTIDOTE to the dangers posed by the West, I respect your views and ask you...may I stone you or would you prefer I string you from a crane?  I only want to make you happy.  Your fulfillment is my goal.

Truth is truth.  It obeys no ideology, no religion, no government, it is simply truth.  It is simultaneously far more complex and far more simple than the categories we humans have created to forge a social existence in the world.

And so it is true that the attrocities of the West are attrocities, As it is also  true that attrocities of the IRI are attrocitties, it  And that is that.  It is REALLY that simple.

And yet it makes the current political situation that complicated.  In the short run.  But not in the long run.

If each person, one by one, wakes up and stands up, willing to speak the Truth in ALL situations, there can be only one eventual outcome:

The truth will set us free.

Signed,
Atafeh

(beneficiary of

IRI justice)

azarin sadegh

that's all they have in iran, stupido! you and you are kind sang -e- arbaabaanetoon ro beh sinne mizanid.
you don't give a damn about iran and iranians living in iran.
get a life, woman.

nazar

Bebakhshidesh va az edam gelogiri konid.

to justice or injustice?

You should be kidding...right? Imagine the case of prisoners in Guantanamo. What if the justice was supposed to be in the hands of the 9/11 families? Do you think if any of those prisoners (that you sound like someone who should have sympathy for them!) --guilty or innocents-- would have had any chance of survival? How about the murderer of Kurds in Germany, who went back -- alive --to Iran and received official welcome?

If Ali’s case was tried here, he would have been released in his first trial, for the lack of evidence. No DNA trace was found on the knife he had in hand. And there are witnesses who testify for his innocence during the fight. And still he has spent his last 5 years in jail, and he could get executed this week.

 And you, Mr or Mrs (In)justice, you dare talking about the justice in Iran? You are just showing us the degree of your cruelty and blindness.

Azarin

Iranian system is the best

موج انسانى و خيرخواهانه مردم براى نجات جوانى از اعدام به راه افتاد

I consider the Iranian system to be better than those in the western countries. A few years ago on a similar case in UK, the accused was released from Jail after 2 years and left the parents of the victim and public in shock. Here in Iran at least the accused must obtain the approval of the public and the victim's parents ( or relatives) before being freed. This undoubtedly reduces crime. Similar incidents have happened in Australia over the past couple of years, which have resulted very little to contain the aggression or to reduces crime. No wonder why such crimes are on the increase in the west.

It is about the time that West adapts the Iranian system.