Bavafa

One thing to add, universal, not IC

In this virtual world, we often come across people we agree with on a lot of issues. And then, all of a sudden, paffff, one issue we disagree on rather strongly. People tend to say: But I've always supported you.

Hey, don't suport ME, you don't know me. You agree or you don't with my comments, opinions, facts and figures. Nothing personal.

Some people do take it personally, though. And from your best virtual friends they turn into your worst virtual enemies. Hating you even more than those you've never agreed with on anything before. 

That's my experience, my 2 cents. ;o)

It's good to gossip from time to time ;o)

It's like a collective therapy.

Yes, VPK is one of my favourites. Reasonable, patient and knowledgable. Willing to agree to disagree without insulting. I call it d quality.

And no, IC is not less polite than other sites I know, quite the oposite. Now, go imagine the other sites (Croatian) I know, he,he.

Dear comments: Excellent points which I think merits a blog by U

- That as one grows and learns more our perspective may change respectfully and the fact is that events are fluid, thus our perspective on things need to be.

- Second thing is that our support or disagreement ought to be about the content and not solely about the individual who delivers it.

'Vahdat' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

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Shepesh, I will do as you ordered - Not.

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In support of Bavafa:)

Shepesh: Individual's perspective changes with time, which is positive and a must.  We don't live in the stone age any more that everybody has to keep his perspective since he was 5 years old. 

On the other hand, when one comments and shut up another person, it does not mean that they shouldn't communicate for the rest of their life.  You can make someone quiet, and immediately embrace his other ideas in the neighboring blog.  We call this "communications" these days.

Dear Shpesh: I agree, lets move on

There is nothing on my side to have a need to be taken up with Admin. Have never done it and hope we can conduct ourselves in manners that will not have a need for that.

Cheers

'Vahdat' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

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Dear Shepesh: When one gets to my age...

Two things happens, first you lose your memory and I can't remember the second one :(

So, I do remember Shah Gholam (what happened to him any way) but I don't remember the endless Israeli/Palestinians news item from him, but this is not to say it was not, I just don't remember.

However, I do support and encourage all kinds of news & blog item specially if it is about freedom from tyranny and dictatorship, this includes Israeli/Palestinians conflict, Syrians, Bahrainis, Saudis and most importantly Iranians.

What you failed to read in that blog was about spamming and about alleged 'professional writers', mind you I specifically mentioned on both sides of the isle (far right and the other far right) without referring to any specific user name.  Also, no where in that blog was suggested to shut them, only if IC should have different guidelines for them.

The second thing you failed to notice is that I am not excluding myself from any criticism and already admitted that I am not fault-free and only human as any body else. The question is if we are going to accept and learn from our mistakes.

Regarding Anahid's point, which I fully agree with (thank you Anahid jan), it is not that one is merely referring to old blogs and comments. The point is that in each of your comments here you have aimed, and I can say insincerely by cherry picking, to find faults with me. The insincerity in your intention is the part that draws such conclusion.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity.

'Vahdat' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

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Shepesh, some Iranians suffer

From always trying to find faults in other blogs by digging into old ones. Give it up. In your comment before your last one, you noted that you were going to part. Then part.

One thing I do want to ask out of curiosity Bavafa

I remember when I joined IC you strongly supported Shah Gholam and his daily Israeli/ Palestinian news items. But now just a week or so back you wrote a blog here slamming people like IMF who do the same?

//iranian.com/main/blog/bavafa/what-should-guild-lines-be-professional-contributors

This seems a strong turnaround in you in attitude. What was it that prompted this change?

Now it is you who brings about subject of MPD. So what do you conclude, do you think Iranians suffer from MPD?

Thanks for the comments

Dear Shepesh: Thanks and we will do so

Cousin Faramarz: I would have hoped you reserve your Fetwa for juicier topics. Nevertheless, I agree that IC has improved significantly after the last new-sheriff-in-town Fetwa. It apparently got some folks attention and those who were just not conforming had to leave. I also feel your irritation about the ever so nay-sayers or diversionist, but if we are going to be honest, those folks exist on both side of the isle. For the IRI hard core folks Israel is the scapegoat, for the far right (bomb bomb, airtight sanction) folks "NIAC" often is the key word for diversion. Anyway, I believe tolerance is the key if we are going to get any where.

Dear comments: I agree with your general sentiments with minor reservations. I agree that we might not have learned it in our mother-land but the hopes are that after living here for as many years as some of us have lived, would have learned that by now. I also agree against being TOO polite. I know at least a couple of members (one female) that was extra polite, yet much rude comments were leveled at her. Sadly she was not even political and no longer on IC as a result.

Dear Latina: You are correct about politeness with others and not so much with family in every culture but Iranians have taken this to a whole new level. This is, I believe, much more exaggerated and pronounced after the Shah, the rudeness among some folks with shouting is simply unbelievable.

'Vahdat' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

.......

Sadly this be polite in public but almost anything goes with the family is not part of one particular culture. It seems to be more of a "human nature" approach.

 Of course, there are exceptions to any rule. :o)

The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants (2005).

I am thrilled with Iranian culture in IC.  Some IC fans are so supportive of each other.  I realized that Bavafa and VPK are so supportive of each other.  That's also true for Shazde.. and Pendare Nik as well as Faramarz and Soori.  Good for you sisters.

I am supportive of the blogs that I present.  That's my share......

A different approach.

Some of us are always nice.  They Taroff, and at the same time they respect all.  What we are not good at is the "debate".  We never learned, and we never knew such a skill exists.  Because we thought / were taught "debate and discussion" are individual's instinct or a given gift. I don't agree that we should be too polite all the time, and don't oppose the ideas.  My experience in outside of Iran taught me the moderation.  I try to be slightly aggressive when needed, but always have my mood carefully controlled.     

A Fatwa from My Office!

Cousin Mehrdad

I think that overall there is an excellent level of civility on Iranian.com and the regular bloggers and contributors are self-policing rather well. As always, there is some level of self-righteousness, repetitiveness and self indulgence, but such as life.

My only problem is with the Regimi crowd that really don’t have anything positive to contribute to the conversation, drag Israel/Palestinian issues into our conversation and then run away with their tails between their legs until the next blog. And if you click on their names, you will see that they haven’t written anything since they have come on-board here. What a bunch of “Jacque Asses!”

I also would like to say that I truly appreciate the folks who spend a good amount of time writing something in Farsi or write poetry or use the arts to make their points. Thank you.

Dear Bavafa

Yes, we do have different notion and understanding of a polite and civil discussion.

Dear Shepesh: فرق بین "بشین" و "بتمرگ"

Dear Shepesh:

Your selected quotes without providing the statements that drew these responses are in fact cherry picking and not sincere, still I would call them very civil.  Maybe we just have different notion and understanding of a polite and civil discussion. Telling some one that his statement is incorrect/inaccurate, is a polite and civil way of saying he is lying without an overtly implicating of an insult where as a charge of "idiot" or "liar" is an overt way of insulting your opponent.

Also, I don't claim by any means that I can be civil all the time. Harsh attack on me has and probably will draw in kind response. As any human I have my own faults and corks, but willing to face them and accept where I am wrong. Your selected quote from cool Basiji is an unkind statement by me, but in it is not in a discussion with a Basiji, merely my feeling for the thugs in Iran who are bringing much death and destruction to Iranians.

'Vahdat' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

Bavafa

I do not see the examples I quoted as polite and civil. And nor do many others. Saying someone has lost or sold their soul is a huge insult and is as bad as calling someone an idiot , liar, an insult in manys book. Attacking someones integrity and honesty is calling them liar. Then when the other person responds with examples of dishonesty of the accuser do not be surprised. MK is one of the most patient people on this site but perhaps he also can only take so much before he says some home truths.

And I suggest you read more blogs where the person(s) you have mentioned have taken part. You will then see the point I am making.

I also remember an occasion where you made a comment "the only good basij is a dead basij". Do you think that is civil or violent?

Cool Basiji

Thanks folks, appreciate all your thoughts and comments

Anahid Jan: Even though VPK is not the only recipient of such insults, his consistent polite demeanor makes such attack even more shocking.

MM jan: Great quote and so true. Appreciate your thoughts here and else where.

Roozbeh jan: I have little to no doubt of MUID, specially when one of those individuals is kicked out only to come back with a new UID. I would also not be surprised if some of the individuals are professional contributor (work for an entity on both side) yet I believe, for our principal, we ought to do our outmost not to give them the very excuse/reason they need to point out to our anti-democratic way of approach which could be called hypocrisy. My approach to those is to ignore them as much as possible but I also understand our emotions and that it is not always possible. Anyway thanks for the comment.

Dear Amirkabear4u: I most often agree with your thoughts and comments, including your first point here but I sincerely have not seen the kind of "bullying" personality from VPK. In fact I believe his overly politeness invites some of these "bullying". But I don't read every blog/comment so I may have miss it :)

Dear Shepesh: I am failing to see the point your trying to make. You are bringing examples of polite/civil exchange only to dismiss them later. I agree with you regarding "loyalty" of the members to each other, only natural, but we are hoping to have enough integrity not to stay on the wrong side just to remain loyal to those members who we see ourselves ideologically aligned to.

I have some ideological disagreements with VPK and have written in support of many who I had strong disagreements (ie. Sargord Pirooz, Fessenjoon) and will hope those who disagree with me one day just to come to my defense if my voice is being forced to shut.

'Vahdat' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

polite member?

I read the blog you mention and saw before any comments you are describing this type of exchange first:

<<<<

VPK jaan: Agreed, I am done with it

by Bavafa on Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:16 AM PDT

 My last comment was really to recap what I have learned about Masoud's logic, ethics and mindset. It is certainly very revealing about his position, affiliation and priorities vise a vie Iran and Iranians. Now only if one could get Fred to engage in a debate as he is much savvier and seasoned to reveal any of his/her true motives. Also, appreciate every one's support, thoughts and opinions. 'Vahdat' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

Mehrdad

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:52 AM PDT

 Leave MK alone he needs to think of his grants. They do not come cheap and sometimes cost ones' soul. >>>>

He was also rude to areyo barzan  who showed him a lot of patience.

This place is firstly a social website where groups of people who know each other huddle together and defend each out of loyalty, despite what is true. This is something that people who do not use this site for social purposes find a negative aspect. Please do not think people cannot see what is written and when people decide to speak up or leave posts. There is a lot of bullying by all sorts of people here. There is even snobbery where if you are not a "friend" you are not spoken to or are mocked because of your avetar. So please ... these types of blogs have no purpose other than to show loyalty.

3 points Bavaf

1- No nation is fault less.

2- VPK is only 'polite' when one agrees to him. In fact HE IS a living example of your comment.

3- You are correct saying, "this type of bullying comes from the very same people that have been beating the drum of democracy, freedom in Iran."

Fairness and Equality in Justice

Disorder seem to be of MUID than MPD type.

MUID standing for Multiple User ID.

a handful of members of  this site (translated into two dozen or so user ID's) suffer from severe case of this mental disorder. these user ID's insult, muck and attack members whom they disagree with one user ID. Then they come back with another user ID congradulating their other ones for this act of cyber thuggery. Why do they do it? I am not a psychiatrist expert, but I guess it would give them the attention and recognition the lack in their real life. 

But this is only an "internet thing", less to do with our culture, more to do with the anonymity and safety that an internet forum such as ours  offers to an otherwise nobody, a coward, a failure claiming to be a prince! The real people behind these user ID's would not dare to abuse anyone in real life, as they know well of consequences.

VPK is an utterly decent guy as is masoud.

Thank you very much for this timely blog

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

Teddy also set the pace here

I was told that Teddy Roosevelt once said that "if you are right, speak loudly, if not, still speak loudly but also pound really hard on the podium".  Analogously, some folks think that because they talk in a condescending tone, insult or write a mile, others will lie down and play dead. 

Civil society starts with a civil conversation, and many of us here subscribe to it.

I respect VPK too, Mehrdad jan

I have found VPK a polite person and valuable member of IC. I also saw the insults to him and was disappointed at the people who have insulted VPK. VPK is actually one member who is receptive to discussion and is not stubborn about his ideas. People who attack VPK are on the other hand usually inflexible contributors who are self-righteous. Thanks for writing about this.