Capt Ayhab

Dear Anahid

You don't really need to debate the merits of monarchy with me since my vote is for a republic and so we are on the same boat. I agree with what you said about criticism of RP. Further below, you can read some of my criticism of RP, for which I am yet to read a response.

Dear Jamshid, thanks for your comments to me

Dear Jamshid, thanks for your comments addressing me.  I do not want to get too much into debating whether in 1357 monarchy could have been saved.  Like you, I participated in demonstrations at that time even though I was a high school student.  I just don't see why we have to go back to monarchy.  Most countries in the world have rejected this form of government and even if RP is great, he can be president, why does he have to be king?  Again, I am really not interested too much in debating merits of monarchy, but I clearly don't see why RP can not be criticized just like so many other ones are.  Maybe people can be more respectful in their criticism but even if some are not, it is not a big deal. As a politician, he should be prepared to have people who worship him, thsoe who see his good and bad and those who may hate him for reason or not. Mark of a great leader is to rise above criticism and show by her/his actions that he/she clearly has much to offer.

Thank you. / edited

Please continue with the debate. It's a big success that at least we were able to get something serious going instead of just the usual mudslinging on Ayhab's blog. That's positive. 

I will be reading the debate quietly and also looking at the trajectory of the thread to see what we could all get out of it that would be good for community-building in the future.

Maybe if you have time, some of you could do the same and think about it a little. Ayhab, I even invited people here to see how the conversation was reaching out to different people in different factions. That new blog of yours is ridiculous and I wish you would delete the damn thing.

Ben, stop busting my chops please.

agreed

If rosie is rooshan I know her too an iran passionata of our cyber world. Maziar

کاپیتان

با این بلاگ اینا رو روانی کردی داداش!

rosie, check your yahoo email address

in your morning (it's already almost morning here)

rosie, check your yahoo email address

in your morning (it's already almost morning here)

Vildemose, Rosie

Vildemose: Thank you dear.

Rosie: You wouldn't need anyone to come to your defense, you have proved me many times that you can do a better job than anyone!

benross: You might be too new in this site to know about Rosie's love and passion for Iran. I am certain she cares more about Iran than many of our fellow regime supporter Iranians in this site whose names I don't need to mention.

VPK: Absolutely, Rosie is a

VPK: Absolutely, Rosie is a breath of Fresh air on this site and she doesn't have to be Iranian to care about Iran. Her perspective is unique and original. I always learn something new when I read her comments though sometimes they are longwinded....

Rosie' s right

Then whom, and what does Rosie represent? Freedom of speech rhetoric aside.

Rosie has

a right to her opinion and we should pay attention to it. We might learn something. The future of Iran will not be dictated by any of us. However it behooves us to listen to a wide range of voices including that of Rosie. It is short sighted to disregard a person just because they are not born Iranian. 

Rosie is obviously interested in Iran and that counts for a great deal. It beats a lot of Iranian born people who come here and never show any interest.

I hereby officially go on the record defending Rosie and her posts. May not agree with her always but do value her point of view. 

VPK

sorry rosie - did not know you are not Iranian

so, ben's comment did not make sense.  of course, now it does make sense, and it is a bid condescending.

Lovely Mehraban

PS.  I, in good conscience can not have solidarity with any group that would not put a Secular Republic as an option to be voted on by the people of Iran in a referendum, etc.   

Hear, hear. I second that motion. 

Ben, Edit

you're illogical and rude and inconsistent and arrogant.

I'll work the rest of this out tomorrow.

Jamshid jan, once again, you

Jamshid jan, once again, you said it brilliantly. Thank you.

Jamshid - I disagree with a limit

You are selling the Iranian people a bid short by saying that they do not have the mental capacity for that kind of criticism of their elite.  We do not know.

How about the clerical elite?  There are those who get angry if you make fun of Khomeini or one of the Ayatollahs.  Should there be a limit or their criticism/cartoon?  How about other faiths.....etc. Before you know it, the list will be up there.

MM

"people will look at it and tell the creator of the cartoon that it sucked."

Sorry, but you are wrong, unless you are referring to the English people. In Iran, people would look at it and get angry and demand justice or even cause a riot.

And that is the truth about our culture today. What you say can be an achievable goal for the future, but won't work today.

"If one tries to limit the extent of criticism, where will the limitation end and who determines that limit?"

I don't know the answer. Perhaps a future democratically elected parliament could decide and pass laws that would be healthy for our culture.

Anahid

"Revolution in 1357 was rejection of monarchy"

Yes, but one could argue that it was also the acceptance of an Islamic Republic, not a seuclar republic.

We can't be selective on this issue.

I don't know your age, but I was present in the streets during the revolution and contributing all I could so it would succeed. Looking back today, besides not being proud of my actions, the one thing that I see clearly and without any shadow of doubt is that a big part of the revolution and people's opinion was based on outright lies against the Pahlavis and even worst lies and false promises for the future.

Had Bakhtiar been given more time to expose the charlatan that Khomeini was, had he succeeded to create an atmosphere of calm and second thinking among the population, the Islamist thugs and "hochigar" would not have been able to so easily manipulate people's opinions during the fever and exitement that was blinding us to so many other things. And so there would be a strong chance that people of Iran might not have voted against Monarchy, and instead might have only voted for its reform.

In short, people's manipulated opinions and therefore their vote for a mass suicide in 1979 cannot be considered as basis for today.

Ahanid and Videmose

Excellent comments on RP and Monarchy.

The issue with RP is not really whehter he is king or a legitimate heir to the throne, etc. At least not while the IRI is in power.

The only issue revolving around RP today is, and I would like our Monarchist friends to take note:

"What has he done? What vision has he layed for the opposition? What details has he discussed with the Iranian people? What guarantees has he offered for upholding democracy? What blue prints does he have for the future of Iran?"

I guarantee you that in this site. you won't find a pro-republic individual who is as fair and unbiased towards the Pahlavis as I am. But if RP has failed to even attract the likes of me, then what?

But, I also want to say that I cannot draw even a simple cat on a piece of paper, or a tree. I just don't have the artistic talents, and it has nothing to do with me, most likely it has to do with my genes.

And I think RP doesn't have the genes in being an opposition leader either. I do believe he is a good man and has good intentions and loves Iran just as the next Iranian, and has many talents in other areas, he could make a fine king or president, but he hasn't got what it takes to fight againt an entity such as the IRI. No guts, no creativity, no charisma, and that is not his fault, as these traits are mostly genetic and can't be learnt, and as we all have strengths and weaknesses in different areas.

And here I'd like to ask our monarchist friends (which I do respect a lot by the way), wouldn't you have loved to have the opportunity to "elect" your king? I for one believe that there are many gutsy, fearless, talented, creative and charsimatic natural leaders among the Pahlavi family who could have done so much more for the oppostioni than RP has.

You see, this has nothing to do with what all the good things he believes in, neither with the good human being that he is, but rather with his ability to reach to our psyches and hearts. For god sake, he does not even have the talent to deliver a firey speech that would move us and bring some sort of exitement and hope to our plights against the IRI.

My monarchist friends don't have to answer this question, but haven't you secretly wished RP had more natural guts, charsima and people skill, even at the cost of his well-cultured-ness?

Jamshid - it is about freedom of expression

If a cartoon is in bad taste, as the one you mentioned, or royalty being compared to horses, people will look at it and tell the creator of the cartoon that it sucked.  But, if one tries to limit the extent of criticism, even if expressed in a tasteless cartoon, where will the limitation end and who determines that limit?

Jamshid

You are right of-course. But I don't believe DK or other monarchists presentation is for copycat. It's for demonstrating that monarchy and democracy are compatible. Some refinements are lost in vulgarization.

Actually success or failure of democracy has nothing to do with monarchy. It has a lot to do with democratic consciousness of society. These are things that should be discussed in free Iran. But respect for monarch is a good thing in general and very important thing for monarchists.

Why should it matter Rosie?

Why should it matter Rosie? It's for Iranians to choose. The rest observe. I welcome your observation.

vildemose

I have no contact with RP whatsoever. What would I know what he is up to. But there was an interview in Germany, reported by David I guess, that was pretty good and fairly clear.

Well, I think RP did not move decisively and he should have been in better position now than where he is. I guess he has also a lot to say about me and likes of me leaving politics for so many years! I feel guilty as charged. Having said that, his inefficiency is coming from the fact that he is downplaying his title and position. One of the reasons for that, is precisely to protect the monarchy. Monarchy is a big ship that should navigate with a lot of care. I can come here and throw some jabs at assholes like Captain Worm. But he can's show himself and be faced with such predicament, just only to be noticed. He will be noticed but in a very unhealthy environment that is very damaging for monarchy, his position and his efficiency in taking us out of this nightmare. The assholes know what they are doing.

On the other hand, what is the incentive for RP to come forward at your request to expose his intentions? Why do you ask RP to come forward 'as a politician'? Why don't you go find another 'politician' to represent you?

You see where I'm getting at? As long as this has not been established (and assholes don't want it to be established) that you ask for RP because he is the king of Iran, his move will not be sufficiently efficient to challenge IRI. 

benrsoo and MM

There are problems with both of your comments.

benross writes, "We don't copy-cat whatever is happening in England or anywhere else for that matter."

Then why do monarchists keep using England/Spain/... as a prime example of successful monarchy? Isn't that the same?

MM writes, "In England, I have seen cartoons of the royalty..."

Assume that a democratic regime has replaced the IRI. Would the followers of the then free and secular Ayatollah Boroujerdi tolerate any cartoons comparing him to horses? There would be a riot in the streets.

What about a staunch monarchist comparing Mossadegh to a pig in a cartoon? In all honesty, do you believe that our Mossadeghi friends will take that lightly and just laugh at it? 

The same example could be said about a Shah.

Our country is not ready for these Western ways. Even some of us who have lived in the West for a long time may not be ready for them, let alone the average Iranian.

In my opinion, we should aim for democratic values, but we should also shift our practical gear in and restrain ourselves from wanting some of the Western ways that may be impractical at this point in our history.

Excuse me, Ben?

Why doesn't my position on Monarchy matter?

Mehraban

You had this question in another blog and I responded there.

Rosie

Your position on monarchy doesn't matter. It doesn't need to be clarified.

On Captain Worm, I never read his blogs. I just grab few points and expose his shenanigan. I prefer nobody participate in the blogs of this bunch altogether.

Vilemose jaan :-)

I know that you know what a Constitutional monarch does.  You are one heck of a intelligent lady (I mean it ) and I did not mean to be patronizing.  The way I see this working for RP is that there is a referendum before him going to Iran and let's say people of Iran choose Constitutional Monarchy and RP as a Monarch and then he goes to Iran.  

Okay maybe there is another way like maybe he could go with a vision and leadership and an army and take over and establish a Constitutional Monarchy and invite the people of Iran to vote for an independant Prime minister.  But what are the chances of that?  Vitually none :-).  

But you may be right, in the interest of civility, we should ask (RP) these questions as you have.   

PS.  I, in good conscience can not have solidarity with any group that would not put a Secular Republic as an option to be voted on by the people of Iran in a referendum, etc.   

Captain, thanks for your comment. I also like Huffington Post

Captain, thanks for your comment about heart but I just wanted to clarify.  My liberal site of choice is also Huffington.  But recently, I have not visited it much.

not that one

and behave lol

my liberal site of choice is Huffington post.

-YT