darius

Yinzer

Re: Yinzer

In the short term, I think Iran is looking like a hypocrite. Read this article:
Iran gambles over Georgia's crisis
By Kaveh L Afrasiabi

Yet, the immediate gains for Iran may not exceed the net losses in the long run and Tehran may have blundered by not forcefully criticizing Moscow's violation of Georgia's sovereignty. Iran and Georgia have strong historical connections: Iran was in possession of Georgia for some 400 years until the humiliating defeats at the hands of tsarist Russia in the early 19th century, culminating in the Russia-Iran Treaties of Gulistan in 1813 and Turkmanchai in 1828. Under these, about a third of Iran//www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JH16Ak01.html

Long-term:

Once the US is out of the Middle East, and the rising powers, namely, Russia and China, find no more use for the Islamic Revolutionaries of Iran, they will be exterminated like termites.

China and Russia will never allow muslims to have any meaningful power of any kind anywhere in the world. Just look at how the muslim minorities in China and Russia are treated today.

Human Rights Watch has been keeping a close eye

"Human Rights Watch" has been keeping a close eye on events, checking in with hospitals etc. From the data they have gathered, the "2000 dead" is more like 50 dead militia personel. On the other hand, the damage to buildings and infrastructure is very real. The point is, I'd be very hesitant to believe press reports from Georgian and Russian sources at this point in time.

Anyway, the question is, what does this conflict mean for Iran? Should either Russia or Georgia be supported? Would the annex of SO by Russia be the preferable outcome to the conflict?

Putin, Czar of the left

I keep reminding myself that the Iranian diaspora has a large quotient of mindless leftover Stalinist/Marxist automatons among their readership of this site .

No mention is made by the Marxistist/commies of the BTC pipeline threatened by the Soviet invasion which serves as the only outlet of Central Asian oil & gas...

Just imagine if there was no US in the world and the likes of corrupt and fascistic Russia and China were the main super power, totally unchecked.

Scary thought for all of us, particularly the Islamist revolutionaries.

How do you think Russia and China will deal with Caliphate-building aspirant muslims revolutionaries??? Not a pretty picture...

what a fabulous world it would be if everyone lived together in one glorious state, marching lockstep towards the only true goal of human society - "glorious world communism/socialism"!!!

Human Rights Watch is having trouble finding anything like the figure of 2,000 civilian victims of the Georgian military that Russia keeps repeating:

Meanwhile, investigators began to look into allegations of atrocities committed in the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, where the war erupted on Aug. 8. Human Rights Watch reported that researchers witnessed “terrifying scenes of destruction” in four deserted ethnic Georgian villages, and said they the villages had been looted and burned by South Ossetian militias.

Anna Neistat, one of the researchers, said by telephone from Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, that they had found no evidence so far to substantiate Russian claims of widespread brutality by Georgian troops.

Human Rights Watch has been able to confirm fewer than 100 deaths — a far cry from the death toll of 2,000 regularly cited by Moscow.

“If the Russian government continues to claim that 2,000 people were killed as the result of the conflict, it’s time to provide some evidence, it’s time to provide some data, name, age, gender, the circumstances of death,” Ms. Neistat said.

//www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14g...

PC

European colonial powers??

PC: They were not Europeand colonia powers. They were Russians.

Treaty of Golestan:
Russian encroachment in the Caucasus ( in Transcaucasia, history of: Russian penetration )
...of tribes in the middle Caucasus then acknowledged their subjection to the Russians, the Ossetes in 1802 and the Lezgians in 1803. Mingrelia fell in 1804 and the kingdom of Imereti in 1810. By the Treaty of Gulistan in 1813, Persia ceded to Russia a wide area of the khanates of the eastern Caucasus, from Länkäran northward to Derbent. Russia had little difficulty in acquiring by...

Russian encroachment in the Caucasus ( in Transcaucasia, history of: Russian penetration )
...of tribes in the middle Caucasus then acknowledged their subjection to the Russians, the Ossetes in 1802 and the Lezgians in 1803. Mingrelia fell in 1804 and the kingdom of Imereti in 1810. By the Treaty of Gulistan in 1813, Persia ceded to Russia a wide area of the khanates of the eastern Caucasus, from Länkäran northward to Derbent. Russia had little difficulty in acquiring by...

Derbent. Russia had little difficulty in acquiring by...

in Azerbaijan: Russian suzerainty )
After a series of wars between the Russian Empire and Iran, the treaties of Golestān (Gulistan; 1813) and Turkmenchay (Torkmānchāy; 1828) established a new border between the empires. Russia acquired Baku, Shirvan, Ganja, Nakhichevan (Naxçıvan), and Yerevan. Henceforth the Azerbaijani Turks of Caucasia were separated from the majority of their linguistic and...

//www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/249210/T...

PPS

Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia used to belong to Iran just a little over 100 years ago. You are embarrassing yourself.

Iran was occupied by European colonial powers 100 years ago. So, I'd guess it isn't me that is embarrassing myself! Unless you have have a very strange notion of what "belonging to" means! :D

BTW

So is it OK to beat my wife and kids because they are in my household ?

If they were stealing from you, were violent towards you, refused your authority, etc... then yes, it'd absolutely be OK to beat your kids.  In my opinion. Unless you prefer to let them beat you?

Yet no answers?

I see no knowledge on your part. Only some vague questions trying to
sound like you actually understand this situation. Most Iranians know
about this real well.

You know it so well! And yet, you declined to answer any of my questuions? lol. Well, I'll return the favor!

Cute how you turned it into a referendum on Israel. Surpruised you didn't find a way to mention Iraq!

And i wouldn't be so quick to talk about ethnic percentages if I were you, seeing as how Iran is barely 50% Persian... this could beyour country and not georgia taht we are discussing in the near future. Remember what your position now was, when that time comes.

Dear, Programmer Craig, you are stretching for a good argument

What you say does not sound convincing at all. I see no knowledge on your part. Only some vague questions trying to sound like you actually understand this situation. Most Iranians know about this real well. Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia used to belong to Iran just a little over 100 years ago. You are embarrassing yourself.

So is it OK to beat my wife and kids because they are in my household ?

South Ossetians definitly call where they live a country. A country doesn't have to be sovereign any way.

"Ossentian rebels" are 99% of the population. What do you want them to do? Repeat Stalin's mistake and forcefully migrate them to central Asia somewhere? What happened a 100 years ago doesn't take away Ossentians' right to self rule. 100 years ago Serbian Christians were a clear majority in Kosovo. Does that mean it's OK for Milosevic to invade "their own country" ?

The best part of your argument which I hope people will remember is this:

In SO, what was the percentage of the population that was ethnically georgian 100 years ago? How about now? Have you looked into how drastically the population of that province has changed in recent years? Have you looked into how that came about? Have you thought about how Ossetians came to be on the wrong side of the caucausus Mountains?

I assume you don't support the State of Israel? What was the percentage of Jews in Palestine 100 years ago?

You need not to answer, we know you are a hypocrite, just like Anonymous8 proved.

Here

By the way, 20,000 troops invading a country that has only 100,000
people is a lot of troops. Would you make fun of an invasion of 60
Million people into the United states (population 300M).

This is an example of something you are wrong about! South Ossetia is NOT A COUNTRY. It never will be! It has 100k people, you just said so! That's not even neough people for a LARGE TOWN in the United States. And Goergia "invaded" a province in their own damn country. It was Russia who invaded a sovereign state. In SO, what was the percentage of the population that was ethnically georgian 100 years ago? How about now? Have you looked into how drastically the population of that province has changed in recent years? Have you looked into how that came about? Have you thought about how Ossetians came to be on the wrong side of the caucausus Mountains? On the GEIORGIAN side? In the first place? No. You haven't. Instead, you've decided to go with the Soviet (ooops, sorry! Russian!) party line about everything. And then you turn around and insult people who actually ahve some knowledge about what is really going on for being dishonest. It is you who is intellectually dishonest, for continuing to argue these points without ever bothering to go learn teh facts. The government of Georgia made a foolish mistake, but that doesn't put Ossetian rebels on the right side of the issue... nor does it give teh Soviets an excuse to do what they have always done best, namely brutalizing their neighbors!

And I still find it mind boggling that you can refer to a 20,000 man military as "massive". It's not a matter of scale. That si one of the smallest military forces in the world.

PC, I expected just this from you

you haven't shown ONE SINGLE THING to be wrong in my statement but now you don't have enough time to show me whee I have been wrong? That's too opportunistic not to be laughable.

All sizes are relative. If you are a programmer, you should know this. It's not just numbers of troops but the sophisticated weapons and military spending. Look at Israel versus Arab states. I also don't want to talk to you, it's clear you have no real information.

it was in the news

also: your video clip is accurate about the flow of the events, and frankly, it makes too much sense to me.

but then again I believe most conspiracy theories I hear :0)

Fighting Rages In South Ossetia

by Gregory Feifer

Listen Now add to playlist

All Things Considered, August 8, 2008 ·
Georgia launched a major offensive to retake control of the breakaway
region of South Ossetia. Fighting raged in the region's capital,
Tskhinvali. There were reports of civilian deaths. Georgia says Russian
warplanes dropped bombs in retaliation.

IRANdokht

Iraninejad

I don't watch FOX News, nor do I adhere to Wikipedia.

Anonymous8

Most of what you belive to be true, isn't. I suggest you do some research before pontificating on this further. I don't have time to correct akll of the incorrect statements you make... and I'm disinclined to anyway, since you haven't ackowledged that any of the previous claims you made were wrong.

This video is blatant propaganda. It becomesobvious in the at 37 seconds in, when they start talking about a "massive" Georgian military buildup. Georgia has ~20k troops. tell me on what planet a country with 20,000 military personnel is engaging in a massive military buildup? That's so blatantly dishonest, it is almost funny.

If you liek to watch this kind of Soveit era propaganda that is your business. Just don't expect to eb able to pawn it off as fact.

PC, you are too blinded

Their international status was called de-facto autonomous. They had their own elections, they ran their own economy and paid no taxes to Georgia.

The people of South Ossetia 99% voted for INDEPENDENCE. Only dictatorships can ignore this and force people to subjugate.

There has been not one place in iran where such a thing have happened. Not even the wrost so-called "tajzieh talabs" have over 25% support in any province. If any of them were as clear-cut case as SO, US WOULD definitly support them.

The majority of SO residents of Russian citiznes. This is a moot comparison and it does not excuse the Georgian military aggression and KILLINGS.

By the way, 20,000 troops invading a country that has only 100,000 people is a lot of troops. Would you make fun of an invasion of 60 Million people into the United states (population 300M).

I'm tired of your selfish justifications for why Russia is the bad guy.

The path SO has followed toward independence is just like Kosovo, Bosnia, Slovakia, and Georgia itself.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either SO should be independent or all of Georgia should be given back to Russia. If you are not a hypocrite you would understand the ethical choices.

Anonymous8

South Ossetia and Abkhazia have been def-facto autonomous.

What does that mean? For what reason were they ever considered autonomus? If anyone in any country wnats to declare themsleves to be autonomus, they are allowed to? I find the comparisons to Kosovo sickening. There was serious and well documented ethnic cleanisng in the Balkans, and Kosovo was oen of the victims of that.No such thing happened in Georgia. If anything, it was ethnic Georgians who were forced off of land that ha shistorically been theirs. Read the history.

SO has
voted twice to be independent. Majority of the population does not want
to be a part of Georgia (nor Russia).

That is blatantly untrue. They make no secret of the fact they want to eb part of Russia. They can't viably be independent anyway. They are too poor and too small in population to be independent nation states.

Georgia had promised the EU that
it would resolve the crises by peaceful means, it had no troops in the
region. Georgia escalated the situation by making an armed invasion and
killing estimated 2000 people. (The most deaths of the conflict so far)

And you are ignoring what the Russians and the SO seperatists have been up there for years. 

Try not to be so obviously opportunistic about your positions. It's not like Kurdistan, it's more like Serbia/Kosovo.

See my above comment. The Serbians weer the murderous thugs in teh balkans. The Russians (who are coincidentally Serbia's patron!) are the murderous thugs in the current crisis.

Whatever we feel about Iran, I can guarantee you the American
position would be pro-seperatists if that region had been in Iran. No
doubt about this basic hypocrisy.

You are probably right... but for different reasons. We make no secret of our desire to topple the IRI. And we have no imperial ambitions in Iran, despite what many people claim.

But, bottom line, the US has not done this. The US has NOT sponsored break-away republics in Iran. The US has NOT done what teh Russians did. And we (the US) have had ample opportunity if we had wished to go that route. Do you ackowldge that much?

That's what you get

When the entire focus of this administration becomes Iran, a country that could actually help the US in her agenda in the ME, and leave the real threats alone, such as China and Russia, this is exactly what we get.
If we were getting our information from our sources and cared about OUR national security here in the US instead of the ones from Israel, we would be in much better shape.
I am not sure how long we have to wait to have the American politicians actually care for us rather than some rich agencies in the ME who buy them.
It worries me to see the world changing and we have no clue what to expect.

Kaveh jan, please turn off FOX NEWS

The war began after a ceasefire agreement when Georgian Army launched a surprise military attack against the Separatism of South Osseta, sending a large force and reaching the capital Tskhinvali. The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia said the operation was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government said the troops were "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians". Russia responded the next day by pouring troops and armor into South Ossetia, in which the majority of citizens hold Russian passports, quickly driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali and taking complete control of the region. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated that their goal was "to force the Georgian side to peace".[21]

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

PC, of course that is exactly what happened,

ramifications are no reason to hide the truth. The video is absolutely right.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia have been def-facto autonomous. SO has voted twice to be independent. Majority of the population does not want to be a part of Georgia (nor Russia). Georgia had promised the EU that it would resolve the crises by peaceful means, it had no troops in the region. Georgia escalated the situation by making an armed invasion and killing estimated 2000 people. (The most deaths of the conflict so far)

Try not to be so obviously opportunistic about your positions. It's not like Kurdistan, it's more like Serbia/Kosovo.

Whatever we feel about Iran, I can guarantee you the American position would be pro-seperatists if that region had been in Iran. No doubt about this basic hypocrisy.

I See This Video

and I can't help but think of the film "Wag The Dog".

Anon8...Georgia did not attack first. That's why no one mentioned it. It is in fact Russia that attacked first. I don't know here you heard otherwise, but anything else is patently false. There are Girl Scout Troops that outnumber the enitire Georgian military.

Anonymous8

But I find it difficult to believe that NO ONE from the western media even mentions that Georgia attacked first.

That's because that isn't what happened. Russia has been fomenting violnce in both of those breakaway provinces for years, including the "ethnic cleanisng" of Georgians. Those provinces are not part of Russia, and they never have nbeen. they are part of Georgia. So when you say the "georgians attacked first" who did they attack? Georgian rebels? If the Kurds in Iran declared autonomy and Iran sent in troops, would iran have attacked first? What about if the Kurds started "cleansing" other iranians from their areas? Think about the ramifications of what you are saying...

What!?

"Georgia builds it's armed forces" lol. Georgia has 20,000 troops in it's entire military. The police department of the City of Los Angeles could invade Georgia. Why are you so quick to believe this garbage?

This Russian aggression against a former satellite state is going to have a long lasting impact:

//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7561926.st...

Poland has signed a preliminary deal with the US on plans to host part of the controversial US defence shield.

After Russia's involvement in Georgia, Polish officials said, Washington has come round to their way of thinking.

Unlike the US, Poland sees Russia as a bigger threat to its security
than so-called "rogue states" such as Iran, our correspondent adds.

It's not the same world today that it was last week. Everything has changed. And anyone who thinks they know what will happen in the near future is deluding themselves.

all the facts are true

I don't know if that means there was a big conspiracy theory. But I find it difficult to believe that NO ONE from the western media even mentions that Georgia attacked first.

very interesting and

very interesting and informative video. I am a little weary because of how well this video was made with all those up-to-date pictures etc... usually uncovering conspiracy is not that clearly done and documented, but then again, the involvement of CIA sounds just very possible.

Thanks for posting this video

IRANdokht

PS: please add the link here too

//www.liveleak.com/view?i=8bf_1218721868