www.facebook.com/iransecularii

Same applies

Good or bad is not the subject in that sentence. ready for whatever, the teacher of that will appear!

Could be Mandela, could be Gandhi or could be hitler or Khomenei

31 years later hopefully we are smarter and also that is the reason beyond:

                                www.iransecular.org

What would have Buddha said ...

when the students found their teacher back in 1979? I wonder! These words, so familiar, were equally applicable then:

It can take one day and millions and millions of people believing in themselves and believing in a common good simply walking towards the centers of power...

There is nothing as powerful of ocean of masses and masses of people.

 I wonder what makes you think, it will be different this time round?

Farah

ps - Hovakh, no kerosene is needed please :o)

Hovakhshatareh

Let me give you an example:

This constitution or its summary has reached maximum of 5000 people at best...and majority out of Iran. 

I placed an ad running for one month starting last night in facebook, showing iran secular, its logo and a sentence on about 20,000 member pages a day targeted to Iranians (Iran is not among the facebook countries), so I targeted other countries where Iranians are...and monthly budget I allocated was $150

The facebook page has only 77 members as of now! 

My point is, this little task of spreading the word has not been successful YET...

One reason is we each have become our own islands with our own unique views, blogs, pages, sites, magazines, radios and TV's each unwilling to join one another.... 

We need to start somewhere and when we can organize and unite around something of value, then we can work with that network, until then... like you said rest is mostly words

At the same time I must add that it is through these clicks that news gets from one part of Iran to another and to the world...

The true struggle will remain in Iran and we can only  be mirrors and their voices and info and news sources sending it back in this information cycle that has been created...  

But once the dangerous game of arm struggle start in a country like Iran begins, noone knows where that might lead or end or if at all and that is an unknown and a very dangerous path to take . 

Buddha Says

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" 

 * * *

The DAY , The People "believe in themselves"; this presumed to be strong enemy of the people will fall like a light deck of cards.

It can take one day and millions and millions of people believing in themselves and believing in a common good simply walking towards the centers of power...

There is nothing as powerful of ocean of masses and masses of people. No pasdar, no basijee can stand to that wave 

and to reach that day, we each must become leaders  

and when the people are ready, the leader will appear  

Lets talk about what we agree on and then differentiation

of short vs. long term and strategic vs. tactical.

We agree on peace, unity, secularism, education and organizing.

We differ on what it takes. David, you are right about this taking a long time but what should take long is the process of repair not dismantling of IRR because time is not on our side. It is working day and night at dismantling anything that is/was what we know as Iran right down to the colors of the Flag. It took the diaspora 30 years before it found a rallying cry but it has not found a voice or direction. MM, has a valid point with patience running out and that is an energy to be tapped inside and outside Iran. Suggesting preparation for armed struggle is not a reference to Che style movement. It is about dismantling and attacking the power Grid, terminating key targets, and many other things that youth in Iran are fully capable of, with proper support from diaspora. That is a strategic move to divert and dilute IRR resources and attention while the peaceful movement goes on, and benefits from alternative actions. I have previously written and warned about falling into the Ghandi movement trap. This movement in Iran will be writing new chapters and perhaps it would be an intelligent and timely mixture of peaceful, disruptive and destructive as parts of a unified strategy. Absent this, what you will see is the fizzling of the movement in stages, hope for foreign intervention in the form of precision or broad attacks, or various embargoes, as people feel unable to upend this regime; all of which will end up working against the movement. Simply put actions speak louder than words. With IRR words simply do not work. If the diaspora is not ready to give blood and sweat, it will not be of much use to Iranians inside. Clicking is not activism or fighting for your country. It is just satisfying one's feelings. The question is what will it take for the diaspora to truly rise and show they mean business. I tend to think diaspora like the rest of the west has become too comfortable and lazy and IRR knows all it has to do is contain the peaks and they will have won the day.

David, we believe, we are organizing, but..............

But, there are too many divisions in the ranks of even the readership here at IC.   While I still believe in the comment I wrote regarding the 4 ways of dealing with IRI, many are just fed up, and sometimes I do not blame them for being so sour after 31 years. 

We, again, desperately need a way to unite, and I really think that this could be done via a leader.  And, I am looking for a way to identify, select, elect, wink at or give birth (as Hovakhshatare called it) to a freaking leader who can give real organization, direction and set goals for the opposition movement.  Even if this leadership is through a leadership council made up of various factions, to begin with.

As long as we go on with the current divisive/fragmented state of affairs in the opposition, no significant goals will be achieved. The leadership in Tehran is in the process of presenting menial progress which will be dressed as democracy in Iran, greens (Karrubi/Mousavi) will declare victory and things will go back to as usual.

In the past several years, the only real change I have seen abroad is the secular democracy constitution, and even the spread of this thing is going sooo slow.  Meanwhile I am getting very tired of long blog arguments over the smallest issues, even with folks that I think are on my side.

Doostan!

I think, the path to democracy with or without IR is through education and information and is a long one or is not lasting. My goal is to learn and inform by communication and education and easy to understand solutions. Not necessarily about how bad IR is as we have passed beyond that...

I believe if people get informed the words will pass along. 

Armed struggle is not the way in my book either. I think we should bring more and more people under the same umbrella instead of falling in to the division that IR since day one has caused among Iranians. (divide and Conqure has been IR's strategy)

More than a year ago and before all this, I wrote:

believe in ourselves

Unite (on common goals)

Organize

I still think the same.

visit: www.iransecular.org

MM,leaders speacially for times like this, are born not assigned

I see desperation in some of these threads not solutions. Nor do I think lack of leadership is the problem right now. Ebadi has defended isalmic system on many occasions. She is a reformist and has never shown leadership skills or even desire. My previous comment was not a statement on a whim but it will get much uglier before we all agree.

Reformists

Reformists are one of the most bankrupt, failed and damaging episodes of Iran's history. This expression defines them well:

roo ke nist, sange paaye ghazvineh.

They keep failing and in the process causing assorted types of grief and loss among the Iranians, only to come back with "por rooyi har cheh bishtar", to claim that they are still the answer.

This "por rooyi" is a tardemark of reformists.

hovakhshatare, we desperately need a leader

hovakhshatare,

This is an interesting discussion as what to do next.  In Fred's blog in the last few days (Bringing a knife to a gunfight), we had a heated discussion as what is a proper response, now.

* mahmoudg wants surgical strikes and/or military invasion by whoever (Can we all get along?).

* Fred is adamant about choking/airtight sanctions.

* Veiled Prophet of Khorasan, Mardom Mazloom and I had various non-violent suggestions to begin with (see Fred’s blog, Bringing a knife to a gunfight).

In addition, other opinions are also out there:

* Nuts like John Bolton want US or Israel to bomb Iran, and have even suggested nuclear strikes on Iran by Israel.

 * Non-compassionate foreigners like Jerusalem Center for Public affairs writers have a 5 step plan (Is the Iranian Regime Collapsing?) that involve inciting ethnic divide/violence, choking sanctions on the people as well as lining up military hardware an inch away from war. 

The reason I am listing all actions is to demonstrate that people are just tired of the status quo, some more than others, but the ideas are so widely separated that no one can come to any conclusions that could be followed by consensus action-points.  As a result, we are all fragmented.

What the opposition really needs is a leader who is respected by the Iranian Diaspora as well as the Iranian people inside Iran. This leader can unite all different factions, and suggest action-points.  My suggestion is to nominate ca. 10 people (like David or you, excluding me) and see if any one cut the mustard as the leader inside & outside of Iran.  I am not sure how to identify secular leaders inside Iran, though!  Or, even how to set the bar for this leader!!!  But those points are also up to a discussion.  Once identified a leader, then, we can discuss action-points.

Maybe you can put up a blog to call for leaders? 

BTW, I nominate Shirin Ebadi who has impecable credentials in human rights and is well respected inside and outside of Iran.  But, I do not know about her opinion on the question of separation of religion and government and I hear that she may not be interested.  Nonetheless, she will make a fantastic choice as the head of an interim Iranian government/opposition.

There is actually only one way and that is away from IRR

and anything related to it. Unconditional Secular is the only option. The unknown is whether it is attainable via peaceful means?

Perhaps it is time to start figuring out how to organize armed resistance and all that goes with it. 

Election is over and path & the goal still remain the same:

Are you talking about Mousavi/Karroubi too?

If so, sounds like a U-turn.

Farah

There's NO WAY

that the clergy establishment will go quietly into the night!

Reformists and hard-liners are all the same: Mullah and Mordeh Parast determined to finish the 2nd Ghadesiyeh!

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

no maas - go back to your cubicles in mashhad, najaf and ghom

Minimally, we want the next government to support and implement:

* separation of religion and government

* full implementation of the charter of the human rights

For an example of a constitution that supports those basic principles +..., see: www.iransecular.org whose beliefs are summarized in the categories of: Territorial Integrity, Independence, Separation of Religion and State, Freedom of Expression and Information, Gender Equality, Human Rights and Environment.