www.facebook.com/iransecularii

Faramarz jan

I conquer with you but in 'neocon' language, these are "facts on the ground".

This is a form of culture and it takes generations to totally wipe out a culture. Even then you will begin to have extreme forms of it. Shah's father stripping women from their covers and attacking mullahs have led to this situation, not to mention Taliban, or Saudi shiekhs, etc, as forms of revolution. Only evolution can lead to prosperity in humanity.

A human being who speaks the truth should be supported and commended regardless what background they come from. Theology is widely accepted in modern universities as a subject with PhD recognition. In Muslim societies, shiekhs and ayatollahs are positions granted by such schools and the people decide who they should give their allegiance to. So, it is the people who need to be informed. This takes time but it will surely happen faster given todays technology.

I long for an Iran where everyone is free to practice their own faith or lack of it without attacking anybody else OR being attacked. With the history and culture that the land has, this is very much possible. Then we can be an example of a true modern society not only for the Middle East but also for the world, where we welcome anyone with an open arm and heart and share our unique hospitality and the highs and low of our history, where we have learnt from to become a better nation. 

Nothing is right or wrong. It just is. The test is when someone else gets hurt because of our actions or lack of them. We must strive to remove hurt from our societies. Everyone has the right to free choice and respect.

I see a beautiful Iran in the making. Things are going along perfectly except sadly many have given their lives in order to get there. It is for them that we should do whatever possible to remove the fear and hurt for the current and future generations. We owe it to them.

I love you ALL, from your food to your poetry to the earth that we live upon. We are blessed to have such brave men and women amongst us. Long they may live to change this world for a better place.

Ahmed from Bahrain

D.W. Duke & Benross

 
How did a guy who was 20 at the the time of revolution and was against the IRI become a grand Ayatollah?!  Someone had to bestow that laghab to him right? 

I object to the whole idea of marja' taghleed.  Today's man does not need Akhoonds, Sheikhol Islam, Hojjatollah or Ayatollahs.  The idea of a man being the intermediary between me or you or anyone and God is ludicrous.  Unless you an uneducated choopan in a village in Iran who cannot read or write.  Even then, this is a dangerous idea.

The same applies to Priests, Bishops, and the Pope.  These people are the source of corruption. 

We should stop this nonsense of pick and choosing amongst religous clerics. None of them are to be allowed to play a political or cultural role in Iran's future. 

Faramarz Fateh

In 1979 Ayatollah Boroujerdi was barely 20 years of age and he was protesting the Islamic Revolution along with his father.  As Kaveh pointed out his father died resisting this despicable regime.  Ayatollah Boroujerdi is now in prison for the same reasons as his father.

Right on JJ

Here is the thing. If for the time being in Iran, dominated by IRI, the political message can get more milage using a clerical islamic vehicle, by no means it means people are looking for clergies because they are Mustlims! Figuratively speakin, yes the majority of Iranians are Muslims. But How many of street demonstrators will actually go back home to do namaaz? And even if they do namaaz, they only want Akhoond for rozé kHooni. Clergies who volunteer to play such role as a 'legal' vehicle, are always welcome. But they are not leaders. They know people will only use them not follow them. And yes, Broujerdi's human rights should always be supported as the human rights of anybody else.

Faramarz_Fateh

Here is an extract from D.W. Duke original piece on where he was:

Ayatollah Boroujerdi is the son of Ayatollah Mohammad Ali Kazemeini Boroujerdi who died under suspicious circumstances in an Iranian prison in 2002.  His father was one of the leading religious leaders of Iran in the Pahlavi government and published over thirty books.  He was widely respected in the western world as well as in Iran and he refused to support Ayatollah Khamenei’s efforts to establish the Islamic regime in 1979.  As a result of his refusal of support he was persecuted and imprisoned in an Iranian prison where he eventually died. 

The younger Ayatollah Boroujerdi became openly critical of human rights abuses of the Islamic Republic of Iran in 1994.  For over a decade he spoke to his supporters about the need to peacefully promote their views and he is opposed to violence in any form.  On October 7, 2006 Ayatollah Boroujerdi was arrested along with many of his supporters who had gathered at his home. Although no crime had been committed, witnesses say that they were incarcerated and subjected to torture in section 209 of Evin Prison.

for more info other than the links provided by David:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossein_Kazemeyni_Boroujerdi

Don't get me wrong, I hate IRI and the mullah's but this guy is different.

David & D.W thank you both for highlighting his plight.

KP

David ET and D.W. Duke

 
Where were Ayatollah Boroujerdi and Montazeri when the 1979 revolution took place?  Why did they allow an animal like Khomeini get more powerful each year?  Why did they allow Khomeini be called "Imam Khomeini"?  Where were they when women were being beaten, jailed, harrassed etc during the first 10 years of the revolution for wearing lipstick or nail polish?  

What does this mean" ""A woman is the most beautiful creation of God. In occupations and in professions a woman’s holiness must be observed."  Meaning women must be covered from head to toe so men could not see her?  This statement could be interpreted 10,000 different ways.  Why doesn't he say men and women are fully equal in simple plain words? 

Why didn't they say anything about mandatory hijab?

Mordeh parasti is what us Persians excel at.  I understand that.  But whats this about Boroujerdi and Sanai etc?  They are all a bunch of opportunistic bastards.

Unless and until all reminents of Islam are removed from the social and political fabric of Iran, there will be no peace. 

David ET

Yes, it is ironic that Ayatollah Boroujerdi, a major proponent of human rights, sits in prison having barely survived a sentence of execution, having undergone severe torture and even having to observe the rape of his wife and numerous abuses of his family members, yet some who claim to support human rights will not lift a finger to assist simply because he happens to be of a religion of which they do not approve.  At least a 550,000 plus have been willing to sign a petition to secure his release.  Perhaps they are the "truly evolved." :)

//www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?Maat2

D.W. Duke

I guess some only appreciate those among us after they are gone.Hopefully that will not be the case with Boroujerdi.

 It is amazing that some Ayatollahs like Boroujerdi promote a secular government and for that are imprisoned and at the same time, some so called seculars living free in the west have no telerance in return and they claim to want democracy !!

Faramaz Fateh

Are these the words of a man who should be executed in your view?

"A woman is the most beautiful creation of God.  In occupations and in professions a woman’s holiness must be observed. We must never forget that she is responsible for the generation of civilization.  She must never be forced to trade her chastity for marketing and we must never abuse this sacred gender." 

"A woman is the partner of man in all affairs of life.  Women have the same position in creation that men have achieved and any law that violates this integrity is invalid.  All laws that seek to diminish the status and integrity of women constitute a violation of human rights.  Any law that impedes the equality and the rights of a woman and which imposes limits on the success of a woman are invalid and unenforceable." 

Or these words?

"The people of Israel are one of the most ancient peoples of the Middle East as is documented in the Holy Books of many nations.  Since ancient times the Arabs and the Jews lived together peacefully in the region of Shamat which includes the areas today known as Israel , Palestine, Jordan, Hejaz, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.  These people traded with one another and treated each other with honor and respect."  

"It must not be forgotten that the inhabitants of all of these regions are the holy children of Abraham so every conflict between them separates them from their common heritage and injures their common ancestor.  Friendship, understanding and unity must be achieved by all people of the world so that each nation can strengthen and improve its methods and it ways.  War and bloodshed of any kind, for any reason, under any title, damages the human spirit.  Contrary to the Iranian government which is opposed to Judaism without any transparent reasons, I respect Jews and accept their religion as a divine religion."

Dear JJ. for the record

I am not in the habit of changing my opinion quickly.  This is my original comment: All Ayatollahs progressive or not should be imprisoned, and tried and put to death if needed".

If needed will be determined by a court of law. Not by King Javid and nor by President Fateh.

If it was up to me though, I'd execute each and everyone of them.  But alas, I am a nobody...Just someone with lots of time I guess. 

Here's an example of an Iranian asking us to leave them alone.

This one is about asking Farah Pahlavi to leave them alone.  But I can assure you some of our "support" demands the same reaction.

 //iranian.com/Opinion/2007/March/Women2/index.html

Everything is sacred.

Talking smack is free and does not require anything.

I've always believed the uglier the monkey the more playful the monkey.  Those who talk the most smack outside Iran would soil their pants at the sight of a basiji's motorcycle much less a basiji himself.

While JJJ and others talk of f**k clerics and all clerics are crap and good for dying only, students such as Majid and Mahmoud Vahidnia have already stood up to Khamenei inside Iran.

Have they talked smack about clerics?  Have they talked of any smack? Do we even know what are Vahidnia and Majid's political views?  They may like an Islamic Govt.  If they do should we talk smack about them? They've already stood to dictatorship, if it doesn't match our fantasies, so be it! 

The whole idea that more smack talk and more roshanfekri talk leads to anything at all is just well smack talk.  JJJ belives in UN declaration of human rights.  The application of that declaration includes Iranians deciding if they want more clerics to take them to promise land.  I don't know maybe I read too much into what JJJ says.  But I think someone in his position should think a little more before issuing fatwas!  Bubba jaan more inclusive not less.  Clerics and secular, all welcome, come one come all, come as you are! 

Everything is sacred.

darius

When someone titled "Grand Ayatollah" is alive, people expect leadership.

When that leadership dies, people use him to voice their anger for issues that they agreed upon with that leader.

If Mr. Mousavi gets murdered tomorrow, the situation in Iran will be much
worse than today, that's why the system is keeping them safe.

we have to stop idol worship

I disagree with Shireen Ebadi's piece on Montazeri, in essence in the esssay she is making an idol out of this character.  Until we stop making idol out of our leaders, we will not see freedom.  Leaders should come and go.  We elect them, they will be in power for a set period of time and then are gone to be replaced by others.  When we break this idol worshiping then i see some hope for us.

My Manifesto

Faramarz, who was executed in South Africa or any of the countries I mentioned? Killed by the hands of angry people seeking revenge, yes, but not by any judicial process that I heard of.

In a space of minutes, you went from stating "All Ayatollahs progressive or not should be imprisoned, and tried and put to death if needed" to the execution of ayatollahs responsible for atrocities (and you name just one, Khamenei) after a "trial, in a court of law."

That's progress! But not enough for my taste. Yes, I am against all forms of capital punishment. My Qoran, Bible, Manifesto, Constitution... is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
//www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Why would we have courts of law then?

Dear JJ,

 
I beg to differ on the issue of killings by the S. Africans, Czechs etc.  Many people were killed.  Not as savagely as IRI style but nevertheless there were killings.  

If in a trial, in a court of law, its found and established that lets say an Ayatollah was responsible for a lot of killings (I believe Khamenei is qualified here) shouldn't he be brought to justice?

If you are against the idea of capital punishment, I defintely respect your opinion.  If you are against despensing justice to these Ayatollahs, you and I live on different planets.  I am not 100% sure what is your position.

Separation of Religion from Government

One of the primary reasons Ayatollah Boroujerdi is in prison is that he advocates the separation of religion from government.  He recently made this comment from his prison cell:

"To correctly understand the true Islamic view one must understand that the laws of Islam are based on jurisprudence and thus are subject to change under different situations of time and location.  When religion and state are separated such changes are possible through a greater and more progressive vision.  It is my belief that we cannot call a government that represses its people a republic.  A nation that represses its people under the pretext of Islam cannot be called an Islamic nation.  I vigorously protest the use of the name the “Islamic Republic” in the title of “Islamic Republic of Iran” because of the oppressive nature of this regime."   

Injustiuce under any name

Faramarz, injustice is injustice whether it is committed in the name of Islam or "justice".

What you are promoting is blind vengeance. I don't know which progressive, democratic, humanitarian ideology supports that.

South Africans did not execute a single white person after centuries of ruthless Apartheid. When communist regimes fell, Russians, Poles, Hungarians, Czechs... did not hang a single communist despite the atrocities during the reign of Stalin alone.

But I guess we're different. We're progressive Persians. Whatever regime comes to power we must eliminate/destroy those associated with the former rulers, whether in appearance or fact.

JJJ, who says I would accept your nomination?

Each and everyone of these so called men of God, is responsible for death of many many Iranians.  From men and women who were killed for adultry or use of drugs to political activists to to to to.....

Why would we NOT want to bring them to jsutice?

Did I say to kill them as IRI killed people without trial or didn't I say try them in a court?

 
Unfortunately for us Iranians there is no middle ground.  Either we cheer for killing of anyone associated with the Shah or we say lets treat the Ayatollahs with kid gloves because we are now "evolved" people.

Maybe the lessons we've leaned are not the right lessons. 

Hezbe Vahsh

... and when the day comes when I believe anyone should be mistreated, imprisoned or hanged only because they are an ayatollah, I will vote for Faramarz Fateh as president.

Khoda oon roozo nayaareh. Just like 30 years ago when I cheered the execution of individuals who were robbed of life, librty and property just because they were associated with the monarchy.

I'd like to think I've evolved a tiny bit since then to know that life is sacred and ending it because of someone's appearance or association (or any reason whatsoever) is plain wrong.

All Ayatollahs progressive or not

should be imprisoned, and tried and put to death if needed.

There is no such a thing as a tasty pile of shit as there is no such a thing as a good/decent Ayatollah.

They have ruled Iran directly and indirectly for 400+ years.  Enough is enough. 

Progressive?

David ET, I agree that Iran is dominated by Shia Islam and traditionally they follow a religious leader.

But if you are asking me to follow or support Boroujerdi or any other cleric, my answer is I don't have a religion and I won't support or follow anyone just because he wears a turban and believes in the separation of mosque and state.

These days there are many who have the same views and don't walk around reciting the Qoran or quoting the prophets and emams to prove a point.

Any student activist at any university in Iran understands and appreciates democratic values and believes in basic human rights. I'll follow them any day before I bow to another ayatollah.

But now that you mentioned Shirin Ebadi, my vote is for her if and when she is willing and able to become a candidate for president.

When Dead Can Do More Than Alive

I guess you guys can't see the problem.According to what you all say MOntazeri was a great this and great that but not even 2000 people

showed up when he was alive to break the backbone of the IRI.NOw that he is dead people come together in thousand to demonstrate and use his passing as an excuse. and shouting " Azadiat Mobarak"

If a living man  can't do what he is supposed to do , his death can

create speculation and myth and a flash of excitment and then fades away.

The Next Iranian leaders has to be combination of secular man and women , beleiving in in Iran and Iranian and not influenced by any one.

If we are to stop repeating 1979 and another years of tyranny this is

our last chance.No Ayatoallah  , Mojahed or Jebehe Melli , Hezbe tudeh , Fadayean,they all lost their chances and showed and proved that hey had no  vision and no patriotism.Their vision was of the Stalin , Mao or copy of ghost democracy forced by American and European just to make sure their interests passes through.

We need people with a vision,and  creat a solid document that no one under any circumstances even it come comes to national security of Iran does not violate human right and shift the balance toward another tyranny.

We need independent Iranian who have courage to stand heat and 

never compromise the future of Iran and Iranian for any thing.We should secure their life and their financial status to avoid selling Iran

and Iranian.

The Future Iranian leader should be able to walk free in society without  tens of security guys and bullet proof Mercedes following them around.We all should respect  and trust them when they do talk

and create policy without saying ,he works for American, British ,China and Russia.

If you do have hope to bring those phony (except Bakhtiar) politicians and shady characters then, don't waste your time.

Good Luck

Those

who favor the continuation of a clerical, theocratic, totaleterian and anti nationalist regime often point out that because the majority of Iranians are Shia moslem, then their government should refelct that.

I say horse manure .........

Using that argument, we should have rampant theocracies EVERY friggin' where. US, Europe, Austraila, and on and on. That is not the case because those folks have a bit more sense than to allow a bunch of unelcted, uneducated fuchs run their lives.

It took 30 years for Iranian to openly resist and protest this criminal regime enterprise - ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

Let us move away from theocracy. 

____________________

IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

____________________

JJJ please stop issuing fatwas! Or at least one fatwa/major news

JJJ everytime there is a major news item and you see thousands and thousands of people in the streets of Iran protesting and demonstrating, you put their news which is great but then you issue a fatwa which is totally out of place and just a ترشهاته یک روشنفکر خارج از کشوری

Now no one should fill in the "void" left by Montazeri?  No one should look for religious leaders to take us to "promise land"? Can you name one "promise land" in the world where people are not religious like you?

You don't feel a void but the people who went to streets do.  They want someone (a cleric) to fill this cleric's void.

Anyway, it doesn't matter really and they don't listen to us or you anyway.  They know we are not in tune and in laa laa land! Religious leaders can never solve anything and we should just kick them out since non-religious leaders have already solved the problems but are just a minority.

Everything is sacred.

Yes & No

Yes we should not look for religious figures to solve our problems, we should solve our own,

and No because we also must be realistic and accept that Iran is dominated by Shia Doctrine and many people follow Ayatollahs (Taghlid). We can not deny this FACT and in time with education that hopefully will change.

Therefore progressive Ayatollahs who promote seperation of religion and state deserve the support of the seculars.

Q: Sanei is also progressive and should be supported but Boroujedi is the one who is imprisoned now.

This is the time to tell the people and the world that another Grand Ayatollah who also opposes the regime is impriosoned and must be freed. 

Sorry azz letters such as those of Dr. Ebadi's offer nothing except lip service and nano be nerkhe rooz khordan.

Opportunities should be taken advantage of instead of useless roze Khooni! 

Right Javid,

besides the true successor to Montazeri as the spiritual leader of the Greens is now Yusuf Sanei.

Remember the chant from the elections:

"marajeye vaghei, montazeri sanei"

Yes & No

Boroujerdi must be set free, certainly. But filling the void left by Montazeri? I don't think so.

Just as we should not look to foreign powers to solve our political problems, it's time to stop hoping for religious figures (especially clerics) to lead us to the promise land.