Disenchanted

There’ll come a time where

There’ll come a time where one can survive a week on a single been that’s been mutated many times over to contain whatever we need. Where are we headed?

• n this on the net casino I have found that I can also have the most canadian online casino chips and earn extra casino income when compared to every other wagering web page.

thought-provoking piece

I share your belief that God is what science has not yet proven. Thanks for writing it so well.

Wrap up!

      Still you are incoherent and all over the place with multi blogs! May I suggest you collect your thoughts and write one blog for each I write as a response.

      Now this discussion has lost its way long time ago. Just to sum up I say this: No physical/biological/mental aspects of the world we are experiencing despite their complexity and efficiency that at times inspires owe, necessarily points to any mind behind the universe. The more we understand and peel away the mysteries the less we are in need of invoking an intelligent designer.

     Since people who invoke the intelligent designer almost always maintain that he/it is also compassionate it is fair to say what they mean by compassionate perhaps has nothing to do with what earthly creatures consider compassion. Hard to believe there is a design and purpose and compassion is involved when in one swoop a couple of hundred thousands folks perish in a tsunami!

      Of course theologians and philosophers keep conjuring outlandish ideas to defend such notions. I also repeat my assertion that history of humanity is history of ignorance and we have to very mindful entertaining ideas and assertions that we have inherited from past. I used 17th century as a reference because that is when scientific inquiry as we know it started to flourish.

......

and yes Human history is history of ignorance .... but the Creator's history has always been the history of science and knowledge ......

During the dark ages christian church reached to the highest  point of ignorance ...  

watch the Italian documentry " I. the worst of all " ... it makes you want to scream and tear down any religion ....  an example of  RELIGION vs RELIGION .....  and that is just one example in that dark era of humanity ......

here

you even highlighted so I could not miss it my dear soul searcher .....

"Be mindful of everything we thought we knew prior to say, 17th century! God, soul, angels, miracles.... Human history is history of ignorance" 

.......

read your quoting of me please once again  ..... open up your eyes and take it by surprise .....

I said ... . "  cause if there is a soul we can not master it "

read ..... ok .... come on .. i got you

AND

I did  bring up  Renaissance  because you brought up " GOD OF 17 TH CENTURY "

 Something new?  ......  

I only showed up at your blog because you brought me in to your discussion by quoting me on something that I did not say or I find it it is not at least clear to you.

nothing I say is new ...... of course it is not ..

now listen and think about the stem cell research .... it is our future ..... it is the science of this century .... spend your energy to convince Neo-Cons to not ban it ... instead of spending your energy on calling me a looser  ...

but I enjoyed reading the science part of your blog as well as the last sentence on your blog..... 

Soosan you are becoming incoherent!

       These are your words:

"I am all for evolution and natural selection and science ..... I bet you one day we can design and create unbelievable stuff  .....  even another human ....but well with no soul ..... cause if there is a soul we can not master it but for anything else we ARE THE MASTERS..."

 Now you say you did not say that?! Either you are confused and you don't even know it or you said something and now can not defend it and showing your ignorance on the subject.

Renaissance, shmassance! What it has to do with anything. Granted some folks in that time may have had similar ideas. so what?

    I think you are playing like a sour loser here because you consdier this as a game you have to win! That is not my intention. I don't consider this as a contest. I am listening to see if you have something new to say that I have not heard. I guess not!

....

you mentioned "

"We all need to read more and believe less!"

The more I read the more I become a believer, not that i follow anything specific in terms of religion which is something personal, but i believe more in the idea that there is a mind and there is a purpose in the creation ... because  I just can't deny it ...... 

the same thing may have the opposite effect on you ......  you are entitled to your opinion and me to mine ...... after all the eyes are given to see as well as the freedom to choose what to see ....

Soul ????

read it and see that I mention if there is such a thing as soul .. I know you and  I wanted you to  fall in my trap  and you did ... Oops sorry ... hehe  

Ok now soul ????? It is not in my hands ........I have no idea what it is ....  I do not know ..... you do not know either ...... the only way to find out is to die and we both shall soon find out ... no worry ..... LOL

Also why are you talking about 17 century God? ........ I am not a christian and did not even live during the dark ages and even if I was I would have been burned by the  inquisitionists ..... acording to their standards I am a witch ....

Uha...the soul! God is retreating!

        Dear, now you are falling into the trap I warned you about. You are appealing to our ignorance about "soul" to invoke God!

 You are admitting we can make anything we want including another human (by the way every Joe and Jill are capable of that :-)).

      So all of a sudden you admit to create just about everything we don't need God! In other words when it comes to creating life soon we are going to be as good as God. So what is the point of invoking such a mind in universe?! You are basically taking back what you said in your last blog!

       Of course you maintain "soul" is where you draw the line. "Soul" is sacred and we need the God to create that! But have you thought about what is soul stuff? It is just a name people give to things they don't understand. As someone suggested if you show a TV to someone from Mars he may be puzzled by how the TV works and say this is made of "TV stuff"!

      What happens to "soul" of people who have Alzheimer? Do they slowly loose their soul? So you have a soul and freewill. Could you try for one minute to control your thoughts and think say about a "master card" :-)

         You CAN'T! No one can. Brain cells are flickering all the time. You break that machine your soul breaks down!! Soul stuff is just a cover for our ignorance about how brain works.

       Now, I am not saying we have figured everything about the brain or anything else for that matter. As you know science is ever changing and adapts itself as new fact come about. That's how it should be. I have just a suggestion for everyone. Be mindful of everything we thought we knew prior to say, 17th century! God, soul, angels, miracles.... Human history is history of ignorance. We have come a long way but there is an infinite road ahead....

       I include myself when I say we need to learn more. A scientist in one field could be totally ignorant about scientific discoveries in another field. That's why you see head of Genome project writes a book and says some outlandish stuff about universe. Or a physicist says something that psychologists find absolutely ignorant. We all need to read more and believe less!

......

read my replies to AO and others here .....

There has to be a mind behind the creation

I am all for evolution and natural selection and science ..... I bet you one day we can design and create unbelievable stuff  .....  even another human ....but well with no soul ..... cause if there is a soul we can not master it but for anything else we ARE THE MASTERS...

SOUL is priceless

For  anything else there is master card ........  : )

so we can play God dealing with material things.... etc ..... after all someone gave us a brain and a permission to do so ..... . we are the only creators on this plant and close by planets in the universe as far as I know that can create just like God  ...

now .....  I do not like philosophy ... it is for crazy minds .... 

but I love poetry and i have been enjoying AO's dragon poems dedicated to me in my blog ....

To Soosan...

         Well, even if we grant you your modest claim that you know everything about a cell still you have no inkling of how it all came togther. There are millions of moving parts/small robots within a cell. I have to admit the way it works with such precision and efficiency is stunning. We simply don't know how it came about or how to put it together. That is enough to inspire awe and admiration in us. Grant me the fact that if we knew how to put it togetehr, all those millions of organels, we won't be as impressed.

Alright, so we agree that a cell is an amazing thing. That's where we part ways. You look at cell and say there must be a wise designer and I'd say not so fast.

Post Darwin we know how to get order and complexity out of inanimate world. The secret is "natural selection"! Now, if you were born in Iran and came to west for colledge education etc. believe me you have no idea about evolution or natural selection. From your note I am sure that is the case. Natural selction is not just poetry or philosophical argument. It has a mathematical foundation and some believe it is the most brilliant discovery of human mind even comapre to all the brilliant theoris of physics etc.

Your statement: ..."or this book was written accidentally ... big bang .. boom boom" betrays your ignorance ont his matter. I don't mean that in a rude way as I know you are an educated person. But you need to educate yourself about theory of evolution and that needs time and energy. If you go by what you have heard in the past specially in Iran you are really clueless. YOu are fighting a strawman!

Natural selection tells us exactly how to get a genome as complicated as the one for humans. Though the process is random but the random variations would be subjected to wrath of the nature and environment and then the fittest of them survives and propagates and you repeat this for billions of years and here comes the human mind!

Have in mind also that every concept has a history and history of notion of God has its roots in pure ignorance. Remember folks believed in many gods at the begining. One for rain, one for sea, one for internet and so on. Then came the unification theory and Gods became The God! That has to make us very suspicious about the whole thing.

I can go on and on. As for your second note: "get your own dirth". It is simply a joke, not a funny one at that!

So this god of yours who is gender less and non-human and very skillful, is it good for anything else? I mean can it save us from tsunami and also grant our wishes? Does he do an accounting of what Saddam did to his people and others are doing to people in his/her/it name?

....

Get Your Own Dirt
One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God.  So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.  The scientist walked up to God and said, “God, we've decided that we no longer need you.  We’re to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don’t you just go on and mind your own business?”
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man.  After the scientist was done talking, God said, “Very well, how about this?  Let’s say we have a man-making contest.”  To which the scientist replied, “Okay, we can handle that!”
“But,” God added, “we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam.”
The scientist said, “Sure, no problem” and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God looked at him and said, “No, no, no.  You go get your own dirt.”
Moral:  It isn’t enough just to be able to explain the origin of life, if you cannot explain the raw materials and fine-tuned parameters of chemistry and physics.  As Carl Sagan said in Cosmos, “To really make an apple pie from scratch, you must begin by inventing the universe.”

Disenchanted

I did not say that there is a mind behind creation  because we do not know how things works ....  actually if you have read it carefully and also if you have read my replies you would find the opposite,  at least, for the video that I posted.  

I  mentioned in my reply to somoene there that I, as a scientist, exactly know what each structure in that animation is and how it functions  ....I even posted the same animation with explanation .  

I mentioned science discoveries are so unbelievable and the fact that this video is only about inner cell leaves me sppechless .....

On my blog, I mentioned that there are tons of things that still we do not know of their functions or even existence. I said there are tons of scientific papers being published out yearly and still we are not even close to the understanding of how things work in this universe..... I said the entire human genome has been mapped but now we have a written book in our hands that needs to be translated cause it speaks the language of science and this can not be done in one life time ..... Of course the day will come that all of it will be translated and known.  That day we should be more amazed by this book and agree to say that there is an author here rather than just denying the author ... or this book was written accidentally ... big bang .. boom boom 

So basically what I am saying is because of all the known factors that have been achieved so far there has to be a mind behind creation ...  but just imagine that there are billions unknown things going on and yet to be discovered and by their future discoveries we shall be left in a deeper state of shock and owe ... 

If you want to see it you can if not then nothing and no one can make you to see it..... it is you not the creator who has been unclear on this ....

Also since you brought the gender issue for God. Let me ask you this ...you speak farsi don't you?

So you should know that in farsi we do not have any gender issues ....

This is the limitation of some languages including Arabic. now tell me why even in English when they want to talk about human being they say , " man " .... This is all words and words are so limited in expressing things sometimes ...

That mind has no gender ..... he or she does not even make sense ......  that mind is not " human " 

I promise not to discuss this again cause I know I have talked about it on my blog more than enough ...... even I, myself, am getting tired of hearing me repeating these things ....

Thanks ...

      I am not sure about god. One thing is clear however, if there is a God, it is anything but what our ancestors have imagined! The lack of imagination of man when it comes to God is stunning. (Of course usually the smart among us don't believe in such a thing)! 

       The image of God portrayed by religions is so anthropomorphic that is self-defeating. God who has hands and emotions and other human attributes! The funniest of all must be the gender. God is a man! Someone wrote a blog here a while ago basically saying: "Wow see how wonderful and complex is the inner working of a cell. So there must be a mind behind universe!".

      That is not an acceptable argument. Just because we don't know how something works we can not assume there must be a god. History of science is filled with such cases. First we are puzzled with a phenomenon, say the order in solar system, we invoke God and later we figure it out and realize there was no need of such hypothesis. Of course with our current knowledge we look at the cell and it's too complex for us and we say God did it. Just wait another 50 years and that would be solved to.

      So there seems to be no way from order of universe to God since it is mostly about our ignorance than God's power! Also there is a lot of crap happening around the world, Tsunami, earth quakes, cancer etc. that does not bode well with the assumption of a compassionate and omnipotent God!

       So it's tough for God! :-) Technically I don't think we can prove non existence of an intelligent agent in the universe but even if such an agent exists it has not much to do with the God we are told about!

WELL WRITTEN - Disenchanted

This is how I look at it:

While churchmen believe life was given by god in the form of Adam and Eve, scientists like to look at life differently, describing it as the result of the interaction of atoms and molecules that generated life in a suitable environment. Scientists believe when prehistoric meteors impacted earth’s oceans, balls of iron and carbon shot into bubbles of water and ammonia and triggered the evolution of life. Researchers can construct a DNA molecule to any specification, and in theory add this DNA to a test-tube of substances such as amino acids, fats and sugars to create life. Scientists are very close to creating completely new living organisms from the raw chemical building blocks of life. The creation of man-made microbes from a mixture of molecules could reveal how life first evolved on Earth. The idea of initiating life from a combination of chemicals may sound far-fetched, but advances in genetics and computational biology, using quantum mechanics and molecular dynamics, can pave the road to understanding life. Religious authorities look at life as it is given by god and will be taken by god. As always, they set themselves up as the path to god, yet many scientists have become equally rigid in their theoretical approach to defining the universe and creation (life). Scientists argue that matter alone formed the basis of our universe. Even if there is a god, it must also be made of atoms and molecules available in our universe.

There is no doubt that technology is advancing exponentially to make our standard of living higher; however, if used improperly it can be destructive. Human selfishness and greed could destroy or completely annihilate the human race, temporarily throwing the orderly arrangement of things off balance, but the universe will soon restore itself back into harmony.