DW Duke

You wrote; "But I feel

You wrote;

"But I feel you are putting the ball solely in Palestinians court are blaming them for what is going on."

Not exactly, I am saying we can't do anything with Israel while the attacks are continuing.  Let me put it another way.  Suppose Palestine stops all assaults on Israel and issues a decree that anyone firing rockets into Israel will be arrested and charged.  Then if Israel institutes any aggressive activities against Palestine Israel cannot claim it is in self-defense which is the explanation Israel always gives.

Even more importantly, we cannot get Israel to listen to the case of the Palestinians while the rockets continue.  Again, it is not about t-shirts.  It is about a human rights campaign but we can't get the campaign off the ground while there is a continuation of the efforts to kill of civilians. 

The bottom line is that Israel has the upper hand here and that is not going to change.  What has to change is the mindset of Israelis and it can happen.  In the 1940's black men were being lynched in America simply for looking into the eyes of a white woman.  Today we have a black man in the White House.  Change can occur but violence has the opposite effect.  It causes anger and creates a self-perpetuating dilemma which is what we have now.     

DW: I agree that passive

DW: I agree that passive resistance has worked in some parts of the world and would love to see it as the primary way of dealing with unjust governments/regime, at least in most cases. I also never agree/Condon killing innocent civilians.

But I feel you are putting the ball solely in Palestinians court and blaming them for what is going on.

You say "Firing Kassams into Israel gives Israel justification for "self defense" in the eyes of world opinion. Stop firing the rockets and the justification is eliminated"

Well, there has been pretty much no attack from the West Bank in the last couple of years and look to see if there has been any real progress made towards improving their life and condition. The settlements are continuing and growing.

Lets say that I just to share the same optimism as you that if Palestinians put their resistance down, put on some T-shirt that says their action is against the teaching of Abraham, then all will be good and Israelis will dismantle their settlement and will go back behind the 1967 boarders.

The way I see it, the Israelis aggression is similar to the Hitler's, they see themselves as the chosen people, have the power to take and they will take as much as they can. Hitler could not be stopped by civil disobedience and I don't believe the Zionist will stop either.

Mehrdad

Q

You wrote:

"Should I be preaching peace and tolerance and political submission to the side that is the most oppressed and has suffered the most? Should I be asking for a near-impossible difficult political decision from the side this side? Or should I be working for peace by pressuring the side that could make peace happen without giving up anything except ill-gotten gaines?"

You are absolutely right and the only way to pressure Israelis is in their own court and under their laws.  Since Israel justifies her existence based upon the Torah, then showing a violation of the Torah in the manner in which Israel exists vis a vis the Palestinians gets at the root of the problem.   The approach is dual.  Pressure is placed on Israel through world opinion and their own laws whereas Palestinians are simply asked to adopt a position of passive resistance and nonviolent protest while the matter is prosecuted in Israel. 

I am prepared to present the case in Israel and in the UN as are a number of my collegues but we will get nowhere while the fighting continues because until the fighting stops Israelis feel justified in not listening.  Rest assured I have had this discussion with dozens of rabbis and Torah scholars. It all comes back to the same problem which is fear of the Palestinians and what they would do if they were given equal rights in Israel.  They see it as a "catch 22."

Bavafa

So do you propose continuing down the same unsuccessful road of conflict forever?  Passive resistance has worked in many parts of the world on many occasions from the work of Martin Luther King and Ghandi to Nelson Mandela.  In a situation where the Palestinians do not remotely have the military strength to even begin to fight the Israelis, which is more "simple minded" to continue down the same path of self-destruction or to try something new which is to address the Israelis on their own turf?  If you take the time to cognitively grasp what is being suggested it isn't about wearing t-shirts.  It is about an approach based on passive resistance and a human rights campaign mustering world opinion using the words from Israel's scripture as the motto.

Killing innocent civilians is never justified whether the killing is by Jews or Palestinians.  Firing Kassams into Israel gives Israel justification for "self defense" in the eyes of world opinion.  Stop firing the rockets and the justification is eliminated. 

Efforts to secure peace in Israel have always involved land deals.  That is not the solution.  Both sides must stop killing civilians because it is wrong and not because the other side agrees to stop.  If the matter is arbitrated in the Beit Din, and by their own laws before the eyes of the world, it would be seen that Israel does not currently follow the Torah as many rabbis are already saying.  And if the arguments are published and followed throughout the world, then it will be seen that Israel is violating her own rules.  I am not saying the Beit Din is the final answer, I am saying that is where Israel's error will become glaring to the whole world. 

But please, feel free to enlighten us with your great legal scholarship and tell us your solution given the present state of affairs.  :)

Thanks Q and ID for trying, great questions, logic and examples

The expectation, specially giving the history, is simply mind boggling. The Jews in 1944 didn't do much resistance and if it wasn't for the allied forces, they would have not existed now. Do you think their civil disobedience would have got them much freedom? When one side is hell bend in destroying you, it is not going to care what T-shirt you are wearing.

Mehrdad

Cherogh - to all chest beaters

All the Islamic Chest Beaters - here's a language you'd understand...

"Cheraoghi ke be khoneh Haleha be Masjed Harameh"........

____________________

IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

____________________

If I were an Israeli leader.....

I would be embarrassed that after more than 50 years, my country was still involved in primitive check points, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid under the name of democracy. Israel is a failed state.

I would be embarrassed that despite my big defense contracts and popularity, I still couldn't manage to see my country have a day of peace since its inception. Karma is a bitch, oh promised land. 

The House Analogy is Perfect

Actually, the analogy of the house is perfect.  There is only one house in which both will have to live.  One cannot take the house of the other.  I may have the ability to influence the thinking of many in Israel but I know what they will need to see before they will overcome their fear of the Palestinians.  The reason Israel contains the Palestinians is fear.  The reason for the fear must be shown to be misplaced before Israel will open its doors to the Palestinians and there will be no peace until there is ONE people in the house.   

Greed, duplicity

DW, the answer is dignity

It is part of basic human dignity, and a recognized right under the UN charter to resist oppression. At some point the immediate human response can be overwhelming compare to far-reaching political calculations and long term planning.

Don't get me wrong, you might have a logical point. Even Chomsky has criticized two-state rejectionists based on this logic. But the question here, is not what is the duty of the Palestinians. This solution is not unknown to them. I think under all the suffering and the gross depravity, they have earned the right to make their own determination.

The real question that I think is being raised here, is what is YOUR responsibility and by "your" I also mean "my."

Should I be preaching peace and tolerance and political submission to the side that is the most oppressed and has suffered the most? Should I be asking for a near-impossible difficult political decision from the side this side? Or should I be working for peace by pressuring the side that could make peace happen without giving up anything except ill-gotten gaines?

This kind of artificial balancing of the two sides, has a very dangerous side effect. It makes the people and politicians of Israel think they are entitled to their ridiculous demands.

Let us use an analogy based on legitimacy of a two state solution:

You have a house, I have a house. I come take over your house, kick your ass and lock you up in a tiny closet where I control all your access to live and once in a while I open the door and stick a knife in you.

Now a third person comes to the house, studies the situation and wants to know what he/she should do.

Should that person go up to the closet and plead with the person locked inside to "calm down" and submit?

Or should that person do everything possible to subdue and restrain the crazy aggressor?

I know this analogy is not perfect as no analogy can be. But think about it. This is not just about them, it's also about you.

Hi Q

As you and Irandokht have suggested, Palestine has no possible chance of beating or even staying even with Israel in any form of military conflict.  The back forth fighting is not working and it only causes the problem to continue.  So why continue what we know will not work?  It is only by taking the higher ground that Palestine can ever hope to come out even in this conflict.  This will eliminate the argument that Israel is acting in self-defense.  

Hi DW,

I feel where you are coming from. But I can't help but think you, too, are falling for a well known Zionist strategy.

It's easy to SAY you should be peaceful and give up your right to resist, but it's much harder to do. I get the Gandhi allusion which is great because I am a great admirer of Gandhi.

But the situation in Palestine is worse then it was for the Indians under British. Even South Africans as well known anti apartheid activists have noted. The situation in Gaza is closer to 1940 Jewish ghettos is Poland. A population completely helpless, surrounded, stuffed in a tiny dirty cage with no escape and the cager takes pot shots and kills 5-10 people every few weeks. Is that something you think the majority of any people can fight with civil disobedience?

Look how difficult it is for an Israeli leaders when they are ruling over a first-world nation with night clubs and swimming pools and economic opportunity and International protection and nuclear weapons. They can't/won't do what you suggest to a whole host of reasons, the least of which are political. The Yabu isn't even willing to halt additional settlements.

How can you realistically ask such a thing of a Palestinian leader?

Agree with Hovakh

Pals and Israeli issue is non of our F'ing business - at least not now.

We have major issues at the home front such as our youth being slaughtered at the hands of anti-nationalist and anti-Iranian Islamic goons, so..... 

____________________

IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

____________________

Hova

This website does not limit discussions to issues of concern only in Iran as you can see here,

//iranian.com/main/blog/souri/medical-news

here,

//iranian.com/main/blog/darius-kadivar/restoration-beatles-royal-shakespearean-performance-bonne-annee-2010

and here:

//iranian.com/main/blog/jahanshah-javid/hello

Thanks DW

I knew you would not answer my questions, I just had to ask though.

IRANdokht

Nur-i-azal

Do you have any thoughts on the reason certain Arab nations have not provided serious aid to Palestinians?  Countries like Saudi Arabia or Syria could provide a tremendous financial assistance program by investing in Palestine with a substantial yield for the investing country, yet they do not do that on a serious scale.  Why not?

Go post this on a palestinian website so your type can see it

in the midst of Iranian getting killed in the streets of Iran with hamas and rest of the islamist mercenaries' help, you are concerned about Palestinian so you are either palestinian or IRR. They can shoot each other until no one is standing. Go there and fight for your palestine.

ID

Your questions are an example of the reason efforts to reach peace have been impossible.  Many people are not able to seek solutions to the problem because they are too tangled up in the problem.  In that forum both sides can go on for weeks talking about the reason his side is right and the other is wrong.  It is counter-productive and accomplishes nothing.  Finding a solution does not derive from firing a barrage of incriminating arguments in hopes that something sticks.  Finding a solution requires focusing on viable solutions and not fighting about who is the worst offender.   

Israel, at its founding, was a stupid idea

And we are seeing the beautiful fruits it is giving the world. Thank you for radical Islam and terror, Israel. Anti-Semitism is not a Middle Eastern product. It is European and believe me, there are still plenty of Nazis and neo-Nazis alive and well throughout Europe and South America. What a joke Israel has become.

DW

You asked two questions but I have one answer for them both: NO!

I am against war, even between two parties that are both equally armed. What's specifically disturbing in the case of Israel-Palestine is that this bloodshed is based on an uneven ground. The 4th most powerful military of the world against civilians that are being kept in fenced/walled camps. When there is oppression and injustice to this extend, there will be a resistance movement. Unfortunately just like the global terrorism, the attention is focused on the effect instead of the cause. Israel's aggressive and bloody occupation has created the smaller Palestinian movement, not the other way around. 

You're portraying both sides as equally armed and equally aggressive. Let me ask you some more questions:

1- Do you believe that children throwing rocks at tanks is called a battleground?

2- Do you think that Palestinians have ever thrown white phosphorus bombs on Israel?

3- Have Palestinians ever used bombers to carpet bomb Israel civilians?

4- Do you agree with the reports that Israel has used Phosphorus bombs on civilians?

IRANdokht

ID

You wrote:

"Thank you for acknowledging that but do you think Israel has just started violating human rights and international laws or acting against the teachings of the Torah?" 

No, in fact, Judaism teaches that the reason Jews have been in diaspora for thousands of years is that they acted against the teachings of the Torah. 

You wrote: 

"I seriously doubt that the rabbis are not aware of the ongoing situation. Do they need someone to make a case for them . . ."  [inflamatory language omitted]

Yes.  Just like the US Supreme Court they will not take jurisdication over the matter unless the issue is placed before them by someone with standing to bring the complaint.

You wrote: 

"But what excuse are you going to come up with for Israel's illegal activities once that fails too and more civilians get shot with the continued blessing of the rabbis while wearing those same Tshirts?"

Your question contains leading innuendos and assumes facts not in evidence in our discussion.  Let me rephrase your question to a more moderate form: 

"If the plan of 'passive resistance' fails and the violence between the groups continues, what will be the next course of action?"

I don't believe that will happen. 

Let me ask you two questions since you asked me two questions?

Do you believe that Israelis should be permitted to attempt to cause bodily injury to unarmed Palestinian civilians?

Do you believe that Palestinians should be permitted to attempt to cause bodily injury to unarmed Israeli civilians?

DW

"Israel is currently in violation of the Torah"

DW

Thank you for acknowledging that but do you think Israel has just started violating human rights and international laws or acting against the teachings of the Torah?

I seriously doubt that the rabbis are not aware of the ongoing situation. Do they need someone to make a case for them when it's obvious to the whole world that they're raping people's lands, homes, and livelihood?

If you think that after all this time Israel is going to change tactic and actually listen to human rights groups or the UN,  then go for it! I'll donate to your campaign for the Tshirts.

But what excuse are you going to come up with for Israel's illegal activities once that fails too and more civilians get shot with the continued blessing of the rabbis while wearing those same Tshirts?  

IRANdokht

Nur-i-zal

I think you are right.  The Palestinians would be far better off if they took on this issue with Israel alone without the assistance of the Arab world.  The rhetoric generated by "Arab allies" only fuels the flames of hatred on both sides. 

Irandokht

No, the people who are about to shoot will think twice if their target is wearing a T-shirt as part of a campaign for human rights brought before the Beit Din with the world media recording every event.  Israelis won't listen to the UN but they will listen to rabbinical authority and if the case is properly presented the rabbis will listen.  Israel is currently in violation of the Torah and the rabbis are not about to allow themselves to be corrected before the entire world for having taken an erroneous position on the Torah.  No one has ever presented the case of the Palestinians before the rabbinical authority of Israel on the proper grounds with the right arguments.

DW

Do you honestly think that people who wear these Tshirts will think twice about shooting anyone?

//imeu.net/news/article0016292.shtml

IRANdokht

Irandokht, Is the violence succeeding?

Do you think the violence between Israel and Palestine is succeeding?  It is only escalating the crisis.  In South Africa it was not until Nelson Mandela adopted the position of passive resistance that the world began to listen to the cry of the oppressed. That is how it will be in Palestine.  As long as Kassams are being fired into Israel on a daily basis the sympathy for the Palestinians will be limited.  Israel holds the upper hand in military might and it is foolish to fight this strength with aggression.  In the eyes of world opinion it only justifies Israel's exercise of military means. There is a much better way.

Why t-shirts? Because if an Israeli soldier has his sites on a Palestinian preparing to pull the trigger, he will think twice if he sees the words, 

וְגֵר לֹא תִלְחָץ וְאַתֶּם יְדַעְתֶּם אֶת נֶפֶשׁ הַגֵּר כִּי גֵרִים הֱיִיתֶם בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם 

knowing that they came right out of his holy book.

Wear a T-shirt!

What are Palestinians to do faced with growing illegal settlements, destructions of their properties, their orchards and their lives, not being able to reconstruct their blown-up houses, schools and hospitals, being kidnapped from the West Bank and thrown into camp Gaza?

Wear a T-shirt!

//english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/...

//www.zionismexplained.org/gaza/gaza.html

IRANdokht

If I were a Palestinian leader

1) I would not trust a single Arab leader, since over the past almost 62 years they have proven time and again that their loyalty to the Palestinian cause is all words and hot air (mainly directed at their own streets) without any real substance or consistency. And most of all, I would distrust the Gulf Arab kingdoms.

2) I would go out of my way to discredit the Islamists and religious extremists as the ultimate liability to the Palestinian cause using any means necessary to do so.

3) I would reveal to the world that the creation of Hamas and Islamic Jihad was implemented by the MOSAD and Shin Bet as a divide and conquer strategy during the 1st Intifada against the PLO, and that Islamism in the West Bank and Gaza was therefore a Frankenstein monster creation of Israel itself. And I would especially make this information known to the average Israeli citizen, particularly those who have lost family members to these groups.

4) I would unilaterally declare a secular democratic Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

Bavafa

That is not correct.  They have never pursued the proposed course of action.