Faramarz's Latest Rambling

Yes, Jamshid, you got me!

Yet you wouldn't hesitate to destroy both the US and South Korea, if it would serve your infectious Islamic ideology.

bravo...

clap clap clap

LOL! Jamshid, don't be so predictable

The discussion here is on Korea. You made a number of lame responses saying things like "Korea didn't kill 4000 people". I thoroughly debunked and answered you and now you are predictably angry and upset, and want to change the subject!

What else is new!

Again: You lost that one on the substance, and are now angry about it. Everyone gets this!

Of course your a terrible liar AGAIN, and this is nothing short of calling me all those names outright. You have repeatedly attacked anyone who was against War and Sanctions and have de-facto justified them. When I have the time, I will dig out the evidence as well, don't worry about that.

I read the bolded paragraph. Did this also apply to "ugly persona", "foul-smelling infection" and "infectiously inflamed pimple covered face" which were below the paragraph?

badbakht, enghadr kooneto jerr nadeh, it's OVER, you can't argue your way out of the paper bag on your head. (no malice!)

Q, No shame, # 2

In your response to me, you write, "Jamshid, the lier".

But who is the liar? Here are some quotes from my comment in your own blog. Let people be the judge:

===================

//iranian.com/main/blog/q/farah-douglas-speech-san-diego-last-night

Q writes, "The truth is, you (jamshid) are not mentally stable enough to admit how wrong you were when you advocated for foreign intervention."

My response to you: "I AM CHALLENGING YOU IN PUBLIC TO SHOW evidence that I ever advocated foreign intervention. Your slandering should be punishable, but unfortunately, this is cyberspace and not much can be done."

You are faced with two options:

1. Show the evidence for your above claim, in which case I should crawl in a hole and shut up.

2. Don't find the evidence or don't care, in which case, you have proven your own cowardice and malice and the sweage that you must be.

Notice that I am not calling you a coward no malicioius nor sweage. But you yourself shall automatically assign these names onto yourself, if you fail to provide the evidence.

==================

And failed you did. Read the last bolded paragraph again.

So before you call people "liar", first take a look at your own infectiously foul-smelled pimple covered face in the mirror. It mirrors your ugly persona and your ideology as well, doesn't it?

You go around in this site and falsely accuse people of "foreign" this and "foreign" that. Just as your brethrens are doing today in Iran in their show courts.

There is a special place reserved for your likes in hell.

No shame

The shameless regime supporter writes, "The revolution is a fact. It was supported by the vast majority of the people."

Why? Because those people were deceived by your emam's lies and false promises. Shall we get into those?

What did Khomeini say before the revolution about hejab?

What did Khomeini say about democracy and freedom?

What did he say about amnesty for the military personnel?

What did he say about his own role (I will just be a religious scholar in Ghom, I'll leave politics to politicians)?

What did he say about the number of those killed during Pahlavis (600,000)?

The list can become long quickly. His speeches and writings are still there for everyone to see, which were filled with lies, deceptions and false promises.

He and the IRI did not keep their end of the bargain, but you want to make the people hold their end despite being betrayed. You do so by deceptively repeating that the revolution was supported by a majority. That support was lost when Khomeini betrayed the people.

Besides, more than half of today's population were born after the revolution, what about them? Should they be hold accountable for their father's sins?

Your reasoning is more than flawed and it is worst than false. It is outright deceptive and only meant to cleverly justify the vomit that the IRI is. But then again, "deceiving" and "lying" is all you and your ilk know, and you are best at it too.

When Fair and others completely defeated you in the South Korean argument, you cleverly rant about the "periods" in which you were comparing the IRI with South Korea, as though it makes any difference whatsoever. You do so to divert attention and save face.

The fact that you would choose to live in South Korea as opposed to North Korea, and do so in a heart beat, supported by the fact that you have chosen to live in the US instead of Iran, speaks volumes about your hyprocrite being, and that you consider both S. Korean and the US governments as better than the corrupt rapist IRI.

Better for selfish self that is, but not for millions of Iranians who live in Iran.

Yet you wouldn't hesitate to destroy both the US and South Korea, if it would serve your infectious Islamic ideology. But even after you did so, you would again pack up and look for another "westernized" country to live in, in order to continue with your useless existence.

EXACTLY!

The truth finally comes out!

The point is to blame the revolution and the IRI, not to make a scientific comparison. Of course the latter would be a failure so therefore the truth comes out in an (un)fair way.

You really could have saved a lot of your BS and just said "I hate IRI", nothing of any substance has been added by you beyond your apriori emotional state.

I suppose one could "blame" Lenin, or George Washington or French Revolutionaries for the death and misery that was brought about by external forces that did not accept the will of the people. But that would be blaming the victims. The revolution is a fact. It was supported by the vast majority of the people.

Blaming the whole thing on "hostage crisis" of couese is a laughable over simplification. The country was a puppet state of America who had a proven record of meddling in Iranian affairs. Many many (almost all) historians see the hostage crisis in context of the 1953 American backed coup. Still, freezing Iranian assets, not returning the Shah, and pushing the neighborhood bully to commit genocide against Iranians, are not the fault of "IRI." I can't believe this needs to be said even. One-sided and narrow-minded ideologues however, just "blame IRI" and move on. It's much easier to suspent thinking, no argument from me on that.

(un)Fair, you keep saying "You already answered these factors", but you really haven't. The childish games are getting boring now. You have only now admitted that these factors were crucial and that you did not consider them in your "economic" analysis. But you still want to say: Well, that's IRI's fault, so it's fine.

Once again, I have had to repeat myself (so sad really, as I assumed people would read first).

Q

Whilst we can agree on the timing of the problem for Iran, in terms of who to blame for it- I blame Khomeini and the regime he set up.

Which came first- chicken or egg- Did Khomeini's hostage taking and deliberate hostility towards the West, led to Iran's problems or vice versa? I think khomeini in order to consolidate IRI, followed the path that he did- unfortunately as we can see the Iranians paid a heavy price.

mosheh,

That's an interesting chart. Of course it is far more limited because it only considers two factors: income and life expectency.

Still, thanks for sharing it, if only for just those two factors. It does clearly show Iran's setbacks in terms of these factors correspond to the worse period of war, sanctions and western hostility. Unfortunately this simple fact is something our (un)fair friend refuses acknoweldge for reasons that I articulated before.

Gapminder

For what it is worth Iran vs South Korea on the Gap minder.

 //graphs.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=6;ti=2007$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj1jiMAkmq1iMg;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj2tPLxKvvnNPA;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL_n5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=194;dataMax=96846$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=23;dataMax=86$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=i103_t001800,,,,;i117_t001800,,,,

If you press play the live graph will build up from scrtach. 1979 is where it all goes wrong for Iran when you compare it with S. Korea. 

Q

That comment was completely irrelevant, and it was pure abuse. I'm flagging it. First comment of yours I've flagged, but that's the first time you didn't even bother to disguise your personal attacks in the form of a reply or an on-topic comment.

EDIT: Nevermind. I went down to flag it, but it's already gonbe. Either somebody beat me to it or you editted in an entirely different comment.

'کیو دلقکی بیش نیست'

Shame he is so foul mouthed rather than funny. 

Q

It's really a disaster for you when your regular rat-pack won't even make a showing to back you up. Not one of them wanted to take your side in this thread. Why do you keep digging yourself in deeper? Is it so hard for you to say "I was wrong"?

عادل جان, این

Dear Jamshid, Fair and other hamvatans

Your efforts to reason with this 'Q' character, is pointless really; he has the Ayatollah's moameleh so far up his behind, that no amount of fact or logic would make him quit spreading propaganda.

I had an exchange with him myself a while back in another blog, about the so called "independency" of IRI, and the fact that Iran's importation of wheat, for example, increased 10 times during its first 20 years. In response he threw a bunch insults at me, basically similar to what he is been throwing at you guys (most likely talking points they learn in Basij training centers).

I recently came back from Iran, and let me tell you, Sepah has been spending a lot of money on spreading their propaganda; one of my friends who is fluent in English and has a basij membership (the membership card comes in handy sometimes :D), was offered a job to write English blogs supporting the regime. You can read about it here (they are recruiting tens of thousands of propagandists) ... This 'Q' character is most likely one of the recruits.

Nevertheless, if you are just trying to expose him, you are on the right track but don't try to reason with him, it's just pointless. By the way, while in economic terms IRI's failures and incompetency is exposed in comparison to South Korea; In terms of brutality and monstrosity, we don’t need to go that far; indeed our very own Pahlavi regime, with its authoritarian rule and infamous SAVAK, looks like Sweden in comparison to IRI. These are sad times for Iranian people; hopefully we will overcome the darkness.

Cheers,

VERY MORONIQ indeed ..

of you- to say how absurd it is to make a comparison that you came up with yourself!

No one else but you ever suggested comparing IRI 1979-2009 with ROK 1945-1975- and then you say it is absurd!

Congratulations, you have succeeded in having a conversation with YOURSELF!

As for me, I haven't taken back NOTHING I said. I challenge you to bring one example.

Oops- maybe I shouldn't- you are quite "challenged" already!

What a joke you are. Thanks for all the laughs:)

-FAIR

Q, Stop Embarrassing yourself

I don't care that you ignore me, If you noticed, I did not address you. I addressed Fair & Jamshid, but for the last sentence.

The quotes below by you are very relevant to the arguments here as they clearly prove how you act as an apologist for the IRI no matter what the subject is. You are stupidly being an apologist for the IRI with respect to the Korea IRI comparison because it burns you that Iranians don't buy into your bs and are fully aware of the failure that the IRI is in all aspect of measurable statistics when comparing nations.

An IRI apologist can not be a "reformist" Q.

The statements by you speak for themselves and I could care less that you don't answer. Its proof for others as many have been asking you the same questions which you have no choice but to avoid since it exposes your fake "reformist" pro IRI face.

Fair: Yes, Thank YOU for proving my point!

NEWSFLASH! ALL 30 YEAR PERIODS ARE NOT EQUAL. THE WORLD CHANGES.

YES That's what I said from the beginning!

So the comparison you insist on making makes no sense at all. And even if you still make that comparison, like I explained earlier, you still fall flat on your face.

Hey genius read up above. That's not the comparison I insisted on making. I just said how absurd it was.

I love how some come back 360 degrees from what they were first saying, to affirm the exact opposite!

I rest my case!

apples to oranges

Great, now you speak for Faramarz also, put words in his mouth, and are the omnipotent mind reader.LOL!

What really does not make sense is your arrogance and talking down to people.

In case you haven't heard....

NEWSFLASH! ALL 30 YEAR PERIODS ARE NOT EQUAL. THE WORLD CHANGES.

The international conditions like cold war, globalization, military
and civilian technology proliferation, energy, and so many other things that
you just completely like to ignore were TOTALLY DIFFERENT between the
two periods you insist on comparing.

So the comparison you insist on making makes no sense at all. And even if you still make that comparison, like I explained earlier, you still fall flat on your face. Relative to 1945, Individual liberties, economic development, the growth in standard of living in ROK in 1975 was way more than the relative growth in each of these things in IRI from 1979 to 2009. And in the case of individual liberties, ROK in 1975 was way ahead of IRI in 2009.

Faramarz was clearly talking about the last 30 years-all the
advancements he referred to in his article happenned then. He can
clearly state if he meant otherwise.

If it is so unfathomable for you to actually compare two countries that
started with similar economic conditions for subsequently identical
periods, you are beyond help. For example you can also compare ROK and
Iran for the last 65 years, both of which have undergone war,
dictatorships, and foreign intervention. But you don't.

And don't worry, relax, I don't expect an apology from such an arrogant, self congratulatory, delusional person. Your idiotic comments provide so much free entertainment, it is more than enough compensation for your insulting the intelligence of every reader here.

LOL, and you badbakht want to "educate" people! You have the gall to use the word "class", you are nobody to even broach the subject judging by your pathetic conduct here. If you call people names and insult them because you are frustrated, you deserve every bit of response you get. Or are you better than everybody else here? If you want to be respected show respect.

-FAIR

Fair: no my (un)educated friend

I could easily tell you:
"Khak bar sar-e beshooor-e-kharet, what the F*CK is wrong with you?", and you would deserve every bit of it. But I don't need to.

Oh Thank You so much for NOT telling me the curse words in Farsi. I guess you have proven your "class" by NOT saying them, my idiot friend!

Don't make me laugh with your stupid demands for apology. They can't save you from the eternal ignorance you are stuck in!

The comparison is between the first 30 years of each country. OTHERWISE IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AT ALL!!!

That's what Faramerz was implying: the FIRST 30 YEARS of each country.

Otherwise, you are comparing 30 years of IRI to 65 years of ROK

If that's what you mean, you are being even more absurd and completely unfair.

Very impressive Q, very impressive

You have just proven how talented you are .... albeit only at calling people names and ridiculing them.

And that is about it. That is not much "honar", you can be sure. For example, I could easily tell you:

"Khak bar sar-e beshooor-e-kharet, what the F*CK is wrong with you?", and you would deserve every bit of it.

But I don't need to.

Your own words ridicule yourself more than anything:

"First of all the Question Faramarz_Fateh asked is about comparison of the first 30 years......The comparison is Korea: 1945 - 1975 versus Iran 1979-2009."

whereas if you actually had SAVAD and could READ, you may have noticed the following excerpt from Mr. Fateh's post:

"In 30 years, Korea pulled itself from a backward shit hole which stank
of garlic to a technology and economic power house. ......

Now, Lets review the achievements of the Islamic Republic of Iran in the past 30 years. ..."

WHERE IS HE COMPARING IRAN 1979-2009 to ROK 1945-1975??

The following from you is just magically impressive:

"This is the comparison of the Blog, that I WAS RESPONDING TO. I addressed it by saying the comparison is firstly, absurd, "

Indeed it is absurd- only thng is, IT IS A COMPARISON YOU CHOSE TO MAKE AND NOT FARAMARZ!

And now everybody is obliged to stick to the very comparison that you made yourself and admit is abusrd!

My point about the opposition is very valid, despite your cluelessness. Because it is exactly the nature of the respective oppositions that set the two countries on their respective paths in the last 30 years- THE PERIOD THAT MR. FATEH WAS COMPARING. You ridiculously claim that I am trying to confuse the issue? Well my dear friend, in your case, I hardly have to try.

And even when you make the absurd comparison of ROK 1945-1975 to IRI in 1979-2009, you make the following idiotic statement:

"You have shown nothing that says IRI did anything worse than SK in its first 30 years."

In 1979, IRI inherited one of the most rapidly developing economies in the world with a functioning and rapidly developing infrastructure, excellent higher education system, rapidly developing industry equipped with the latest technology of the time, which had strong relations with the whole world, and had been at peace with its neighbors for 37 years. In 2009, we have gone through a devastating 8 year war which was completely avoidable, lost 1 million people, the standard of living in IRI is lower than in 1979, the technology we have to work with is at best a couple of decades old from third rate sources, and we are one of the most isolated, backward, socially repressive regimes on Earth.

In 1945, ROK inherited a country that was ravaged and destitute from WWII Japanese occupation, and literally torn apart, with absolutely nothing. In 1975, ROK had a much higher standard of living and was one of the most rapidly growing economies in the world. And once again, the total foreign investment in ROK during this period was DWARFED by the total oil revenue into Iran during 1979-2009.

And you have the gall to say "IRI did nothing worse than SK in its first 30 years.?

So even in your bogus comparison, you fall flat on your face.

I think it is clear to everyone here how illogical,biased, arrogant, and void of any sense you are- to the point of being delusional. Therefore I see no point in continuing a discussion with a complete pompous person like yourself who thinks so highly of himself that he would like to educate people, when he could certainly use some himself first. How pathetic indeed.

Faramarz made a simple, very applicable comparsion which YOU chose to shower with BS. And now that you have put your foot in your big mouth and people call you on it, all you can do is call them "clowns".

But so far, you have made people laugh the most. I wonder how that happenned?

By now, an apology on your part is highly in order. But somehow, since I think that will not be forthcoming, the laughs you provide us should be sufficient:)

-FAIR

Iraneh Azad,

I take it from the fact that you didn't EVEN attempt to make a contribution to this debate, and in fact attempted to change the subject to whatever you are pushing these days, that you are in fact the propagandist here.

When you first pulled those quotes, you tried to say they show I was not a reformist. How? You never could come up with a theory on that, and simply engaged in word-games and insinutate guilt by association, at best fooling short sighted morons much the same as "Saddam and WMD" fooled many people just a few short years ago.

But unfortunately, since you have nothing of substance to this debate, you will be ignored again.

(un)Fair, and (un)educated, listen up

You have proven you are too ideologically biased to take part in any debate, let alone attempt to be "fair" about it.

First of all the Question Faramarz_Fateh asked is about comparison of "the first 30 years".

He claims (falsely) that in 30 years, Korea "pulled itself up from shit" (his wonderful words about his friends's country), and IRI hasn't done anything.

The comparison is Korea: 1945 - 1975 versus Iran 1979-2009.

This is the comparison of the Blog, that I WAS RESPONDING TO. I addressed it by saying the comparison is firstly, absurd, AND he is mising a lot of key facts because he's ignorant of them (was proven right on this issue).

Ever since this, a gang of ideological zombies who cannot stand reading anything IRI bashing in their entire lives, have flooded this thread with a bunch of BS and non-sequitors. Case in point:

"Fair":
You still fail to compare the OPPOSITIONS to the two western backed dictatorships in these countries. How did each one conduct themselves, and in whose interest? Or is that a question only a clown would ask?

It IS a question a clown would ask, because it is so off topic and desperate. You are missing even the right comparison. It is IRI versus SK, not Pahlavi dictatorship versus ROK dictatorship. Second, you are asking a bunch of lame questions only insinuating a positive response without the slightest attempt to even justify WTF you are talking about. It is nothing short of clownish response. Third, even if you had gotten the timelines correctly, you would see that SK was far worse toward its opposition 5-10 years AFTER its founding. But since you have nothing to say on the actual comparison, you try to confuse and BS.

You keep blaming the difference in the last 30 years on war- a war that ended 21 years ago! What about the last 21 years?

Yes, the war did damage Iran signficantly. But whatabout 21 years after the Korean conflicts? That's the true comparison. By 1970's according to Mr. Fateh, Korea was still in the "shithole", according to other clowns, Koreans were poorer than Iranians, living in a hellish Dicatatorship.

And this was IN SPITE of 1) no sanctions, and 2) favorable western investment and 3) Military protection from America.

Iran in the last 21 years, has had NONE of these. But even Korea, that DID have them in ITS first 30 years, didn't get anywhere, it took morelike 45 years for it to come out a dictatorship and be established as an economic powerhouse.

Therefore, your comparison is (un)fair and absurd. You have shown nothing that says IRI did anything worse than SK in its first 30 years. But you don't need "proof" that's what your ideology tells you. So Now you are eager to move on building on a point you didn't make into the reasons as to "why" it is so. VERY clownish.

In other words, this estimate is undocumented, and based on interviews with people.

Oh God, you are pathetic! This is exactly the same way every other mass killings are measured. It was investigated for years by the South Korean Truth Commission. Do you REALLY think people committing genocide will "document" them?

READ and LEARN: //www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2008/07/u...

Your last clownish point:

And furthermore, let's say that ROK went through worse oppression than we did, then that is even more reason for us to be ahead of them economically, scientifically, and technologically today.

"Today" is 65 years after SK founding and only 30 years after IRIs. In all that time, SK has been receiving US military protection, investment, scientific cooperation while the opposite has been happening to Iran in every way. That's why this is un - comparable situation as I proved below.

Facts & statistics

**********Pre 1979********  

Fact: North Korea invaded SK in 1950. NK was backed by USSR & China. SK was baked by the US & the west. Armistice signed in 1953. SK was a dictatorship, with brief periods of democracy until 1979.

Fact: Iran was invaded by Allied forces in 1941. Soviet forces left iran in 1946. Iran was baked by the US & the west after the soviets withdrew. Iran was an absolute monarchy, with periods (1941 to 1953) of constitutional monarchy. Between 1953 to 1978 the regime gradually became dictatorial and a 1 party state.

Q statistics: 100,000 (maybe more) executed in SK up to 19??. Based on projections from local survey!

Emad Baghi (Martyr's Foundation) Statistics: Between 1953 to 1979, 3164 people were either executed or killed during various protests. Figure includes those executed for non political crimes.

Fact: Iran earned $100 billion dollars in total in today's money from oil in this period.  Q Fact: US poured billions of investment into SK.

Based on the above where would you (Q) want to raise your children in the period between the 1940's to 1978? Which of these regimes makes the other look like Sweden in comparison?

*************1979 to 1988************

Fact: SK continued to be a dictatorship from 1979 till 1987, Political upheaval. President assassinated in 1979. Brief periods of democracy, interrupted by military coups. SK is allied to the US & the west.

Fact: Iran changed from Absolute Monarchy to absolute Velayat Faghih 1979. Iran and Iraq started 8 year war in 1980. Iran was offered terms and compensation (to be paid by Saudi & Persian Gulf Sheikhdoms) in 1982. These terms improved every year until 1988. In 1988 Iran accepted armistice with out any compensation on a no fault basis. During the war Iran made repeated behind the scene deals with US, Israel and the west for the supply of arm while chanting "marg bar Amrika", "marg bar esraeel"!! 

Broumand Foundation & Amnesty Statistics: between 1979 to 1988 there were 0ver 14000 executions/disappearances/extra judicial killings in Iran. The majority of these happened in 3 waves (1979, 1980-81, 1987) directed against political opponents.

Q statistics: there were ??? executions in SK between 1979 to 1987? 

Fact: Iran earned $100 billion dollars in total in today's money from oil in this period. Q

Q Fact: US continued to pour billions of investment into SK.

Based on the above where would you (Q) want to raise your children in the period between 1979 to 1988? Which of these regimes makes the other look like Sweden in comparison?

************1988 to 2009*************

Fact: SK became a democracy from 1988 till today, with brief periods of unrest.

Fact: Iran has remained a religious dictatorship from 1988 till today.  

Broumand Foundation & Amnesty Statistics: between 1988 till today there have been over 7000 executions/disappearances/extra judicial killings in Iran. Iran has the highest per capita execution rate in the world.

Fact: SK placed a moratorium on death penalty in 1997.

Fact: Iran earned $400 billion dollars in total in today's money from oil in this period. ($150 billion in 2008 alone).

Fact: SK pours billions of investment into US & western economy.

Based on the above where would you (Q) want to raise your children in the period between 1988 to 2009? Which of these regimes makes the other look like Sweden in comparison?

*************************

Typical IRI "Logic" It Is!

Dear Fair & Jamshid,

Only an IRI apologist professional propagandist could come up with these ridiculous assertions about Iranians, Iran, the dirty filth called the Islamic Republic and South Korea. While Americans, in droves, are rushing to purchase Korean made Hyundai and KIA vehicles, this propogandist complains about American aid to the South Koreans.

It is apparent that Q would rather live in North Korea, the great friends of his beloved IRI, who never received the American Aid and chose to receive the communist aid that has proven to be so fruitful for the North Koreans.

But should we be surprised at these idiotic and mindless assertions made by Q?

After all, it was Q who made the following claims about the IRI. Now, Q refuses to acknowledge how wrong he was about the Islamic Republic. Just read these pro Khamenei, Ahmadinejad and pro IRI system statements and have a laugh a Q's expense:

1) “So we have to admit, there is such a thing as a continuom...... The system as it is designed currently can deliver much better democracy. For example: if the Guardian Council starts vetting candidates less and less. The Supreme Leader could show less and less initiative. The foreign policy council could be dominated more and more by the popularly elected President (That's Ahmadinejad by the way). The system can move very far toward perfect democracy. “

2) "The fact that there is strict eligability requirement is not a reason to call it undemocratic."

3) "Even though I agree the candidate vetting process in Iran is unusually subject to abuse, it is only a few degrees different than other democracies. And in any case continued participation of people in the system also legitimizes it. That's just a fact of life we may not like but it won't go away.
That's just a fact of life we may not like but it won't go away."

4) "I believe the revolution gave us "Esteghlal"."

5) "Since when is having a democracy dependnet on Parties? The US constituion doesn't have any provision for political parties. The definition of what is a "party" is extremely vague anyway. What we have in Iran now could be considered parties"

6) "In Iran, the role of Supreme Leader is closest to a "chief justice" since he has no proper legislative functions."

7) "A referendum is not a bad idea, if the people of Iran want it. A majority would have to demand it. But personally I think if even 30% of Iranians go on record supporting such a referendum it would happen and I would support it."

8) IN RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING POINT:

"The point is that the IRI and its supporters will not allow such refrundum to take place since they know its results."

THE PERSON WRITES:
"I'm not sure if that's true, but where is the proof that such a referendum is demanded? When a large majority of Iranians come out year after year to vote inside the system, and support its positions (like Nuclear Power, anti-Iran terrorism, etc) in international polls, why should they think that anybody other than Monarchists and the MEK are calling for this referendum?"

9) IN RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING COMMENT:
"The majority of Iranians want the same things than any other normal human being would want: freedom, progress, prosperity, peace, security, happiness and so on."

PERSON WRITES
"no doubt. But IRI claims to provide these and a lot of people believe them. Contrary to popular belief in California, all those people ren't and really couldn't be on the "IRI payroll". You must face the fact that not everyone interprets these values the same way as you do or you understand them.

In fact since 65%+ of the Iranians routinely participate in elections, we can conclude that they have decided the system is reformable and good enough. They have decided they don't want the kind of chaos that comes with a revolution, especially since there are many foreign wolves waiting to attack. I know you don't accept this, but that's why you are not in charge."

10) "As far as IRI has imposed its ideological supremacy, I fail to understand how a government can do that based on a national constitution that was voted for by 90%+ of Iranians"

11) "IRI has neither occupied ("hegemony" by the definition that is relevant here)nor "forced an ideology through government"

12) "If Iranians want to put their lives on the line, they can remove the government right now"

You can not escape from these statements Q! They will follow you to IRI's grave.

typical IRI "logic"

First you bring up twisted logic to diffuse the comparison between IRI and ROK. Then when you hear people counter that "logic", you call them clowns and attack them for not knowing anything. Bravo Q. And you want to "educate" people.

You still fail to compare the OPPOSITIONS to the two western backed dictatorships in these countries. How did each one conduct themselves, and in whose interest?

Or is that a question only a clown would ask?

After all, the ROK American backed military dictatorship stopped in 1990's, ours stopped in 1979. What did the respective oppositions offer their people as an alternative? The result speaks volumes.

You keep blaming the difference in the last 30 years on war- a war that ended 21 years ago! What about the last 21 years? And most importantly, what steps did IRI take to avoid this war in the first place and protect its own people? Did it reach out to regional and world governments seeking peace and coexistence? Or did it say from day ONE they wanted to export their revolution? And then take the US embassy hostage? And dismantle their army while they are at it? And as Jamshid said, the war was won in 1982, and despite so many people and military experts being against its continuation, the mullahs insisted on continuing it, claiming that God will help them to make up for any material deficiencies. Is that something that South Korean leaders would ever do? Get REAL.

Furthermore, you don't recognize the scale of the rape and torture and stoning and public execution and execution of children in your country. Yet you bring this as "evidence" that ROK brutality was more than IRI:

"Hundreds of sets of remains have been uncovered so far, but researchers say they are only a tiny fraction of the deaths. The commission estimates at least 100,000 people were executed, in a South Korean population of 20 million.

That estimate is based on projections from local surveys and is
"very conservative," said Kim. The true toll may be twice that or more,
he told The Associated Press."

In other words, this estimate is undocumented, and based on interviews with people. There is hard evidence for only hundreds of deaths after the war. Meanwhile, there is hard evidence for thousands and thousands of dead Iranian victims in Iran, and hundreds of Iranian dissidents assasinated abroad. Iranians can equally claim that the bodies found are the tip of the iceberg, and based on "surveys with people" the number of dead or over 100,000, especially since it is not possible to search Iran freely for mass graves as the IRI is still in power. And like Jamshid said, you are comparing ROK's wartime record to IRI's peacetime record.

To be fair, compare the peacetime record- would ROK systematically rape female prisoners before executing them to prevent them from going to heaven? Would ROK execute children without trial? Would ROK kill you if you converted from one religion to another? Would ROK violently arrest women and make them repent for merely not wearing a headscarf? Would ROK leaders publicly declare war on their people when they had a peaceful protest and kill hundreds of them?

Or am I a "clown" for asking such silly questions? Perhaps I should go on trial without representation with 100 other "clowns" (or as you call us "IRI-haters", so that I can confess how the brothers at the intelligence ministry convinced me of my lack of logic and objectivity? After all, what is there to hate??

The ROK experienced a student uprising in 1960, after students found just one dead body of another student. When soldiers were outnumbered at the presidential mansion, they opened fire and 125 protesters died. In the aftermath, the president resigned and the national assembly investigated the incident, condemning the action of the soldiers. Today in Iran, when that happenned, the leader not only NOT resigns, he publicly in front of the entire world declares war on the population. Not only the national assembly doesn't investigate abuses, it quickly denies them and the government calls for the arrest and trial of those who claim the abuses. Now which country is Sweden here in this comparison? Or is this "ignorance and hate and lack of objectivity"? These are all facts plain and simple.

And furthermore, let's say that ROK went through worse oppression than we did, then that is even more reason for us to be ahead of them economically, scientifically, and technologically today.

Your abkesh's holes are becoming so big, I am afraid you cannot cook rice anymore. Perhaps you can wash fruit in it instead:)

-FAIR

here comes REAL ignorance, and it's angry too!

Jamshid, the liar:

Jamshid:
The IRI killed more than 8000 people in just a few weeks in the late 80s. This has not happened in South Korea.

Jamshid:
There have been many protests in S. Korea. I don't recall 4000 people getting arrested and hundreds killed and prisoners being raped in S. Korea.

Jamshid:
The fallacy is in his comparison of South Korea's war-time record with IRI's peace-time record. He thusly attempts to "package" the IRI and pass it on as looking like Sweden when compared to South Korea.

Even overlooking the certain exaggerations this character is famous for, the true desperation blongs to Jamshid as he dismisses these as "war" killings and does not want to count them. The people killed were all South Korea's own CIVILIAN citizens! SOUTH! not North!

Besides, the record doesn't end there GENIUS! That was just one of the sources I had used in my first comment (that you ARE still ignorant about.) The military dictatorship continued until 1990's.

The rest is pure, hypocrisy and BS. Signature move from people who cannot admit they were wrong and cannot bear to learn anything new in their lives.

To get back to the real topic (as opposed to distractions born out of desperation), the comparison proposed in this article is meaningless and absurd, for a whole host of logical and well supported reasons that I explained before. The noise we see below struggling to pass as an "argument" is just IRI-haters doing what they do: repeating an emotional desire without the slightest regard for any facts... painting the world black and white, just so their flawed value system can continue to exist in their isolated minds.

One more note

Q writes, "All this while US was spending billions of dollars on Saddam, killing Iranians and destroying our industry."

You meant to say "profiting" billions of dollars, not "spending", correct? And what country was spending/profiting billions of dollars on Khomeini (hell be upon him) killing Iraqis while destroying the Iraqi industry? US? Russia? China?

Did I read "industry"? I thought we didn't have any "industry" when the Shah was in power. Looks like you changed your mind.

Q, stop before we start vomitting. The khomeini-imposed war could have ended in 1982 when Saddam eagerly offered peace, and with Iran getting reparations from Iraq, Kuwati and Saudi Arabia.

Had Khomeini accepted the peace, the war would have ended. Hundreds of thousands of people you don't care about could have been alive today.

And there was NOTHING the US could have done about it, just as it couldn't do anything about it in 1988.

Stop playing the victim role for the IRI and the agressor role for others. There was one victim and that was the Iranian people, and one group of agressors and that was Khomeini and the people who supported him, fueld by their bankrupt infectious ideology.

Re: Kaveh

It is not ignorance. It is a combination of hate and anger on one hand, and the urge to impose one's will onto others while at the same time suffering from feelings of inferiority complex on the other hand, that gives rise to such deep rooted psychological complex, that no amount of logic nor facts could enlighten the inflicted person.

In his desperation, Q once again reverts to fallacy to prove his point. The fallacy is in his comparison of South Korea's war-time record with IRI's peace-time record. He thusly attempts to "package" the IRI and pass it on as looking like Sweden when compared to South Korea.

Of course, when we look at the war-time records of the IRI, nothing comes even close to its use of human waves, sending hundreds of thousands of young boys to their certain deaths, as there is no value for human life in Q's ideology. There are expendable.

Many of these young Iranian boys died from their wounds while painfully laying on the fields for hours, perhaps days before getting lucky and finally dying.

Then Khomeini (hell be upon him) drank from his poison chalice. Perhaps, he found the Zahak's serpents on his shoulders to be finally satiated.

And when we compare Iran and South Korea's peace-time records of human right abuse, it is the IRI that make South Korea look like Sweden, not the other way around.

The same goes with their records of progress.

While there are people getting raped in the prison's of Q's favorite regime, he wants us to give the IRI a break because South Korea is a more brutal country, which is not, and which is not any excuse to justify IRI's crimes anyway to begin with.

Q, I read the article in your link. Does it not remind you of Iran of 30 years ago, and then 20 years ago?

People's dead body is routinely being found abandoned in the water drains in Iran nowadays. People are getting raped in prisons. Not hundreds, but thousands of people are pulled out of their homes at night and imprisoned. How does that make you feel about the regime you've been supporting?

Why don't you read this article and then tell us how Sweden-like the IRI is:

//babakdad.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-post_11.html

Kaveh, these are irrelevant to the arguments

The question was about the comparison in the first 30 years of each government. Why don't you first read up about the points being disputed first?

What did Iran go through after 1978, compared to Korea?

US was giving free military protection, free investments, and free open markets to the military dictatorship of SK, a country that would not have a civilian President until 1992. All this while US was spending billions of dollars on Saddam, killing Iranians and destroying our industry. And that was just US, let alone USSR and Western Europe.

These are facts too. Don't be insulting to the proud Iranian people who lived through war and economic encriclement by cherry picking irrelevent "facts".

You misuse the subject of your post. Everybody knows the statistics you are talking about. Very few Iranians are aware of the truth that I'm talking about, and some people don't WANT to learn. The latter is the true sign of "ignorance is bliss."

Ignorance is bliss!!

Fact: in 1978 Iran ranked 49th & SK ranked 59th in terms of Per capita GDP.

//www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita&date=1978

Fact: in 2008 Iran ranked 85th (IMF) or 73rd (world bank) & SK ranked 30th (IMF) or 30th (world bank) in terms of Per capita GDP.

Fact: Average oli price for 2008 was $99.57

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Why is there so much ignorance?

Wow, I can hardly believe some of you who are so blinded by your hatred of everything IRI that you have seriously lost your objectivity -- and really aren't interested in gaining it.

Look, I get it! You people don't know anything about South Korea, and the history of brutality there. This is natural. Your entire view of the world is shaped by Western media that has no interest in exposing ditry details like this. Cold War politics and covering up American crimes saw to that. You never saw these things. Never heard of them, and ignorance is bliss. That's fine.

But I gave you specific facts and links. You can at least educate yourselves instead of babbling the same crap like retarded parrots.

One clown tried to "compare" the first 30 years of SK with IRI. The other clown admits that in "late 70s" (that's 30 years after SK founding) Koreans were still poor and were coming to Iran!

One American apologist, lacking any real knowledge and facts, is desperately reduced to disputing irrelevant facts (like my having traveled to South Korea, which is true, but irrelevent to the argument), instead of bothering to study up on facts he clearly did not know about. (thanks A8).

Do I have to spell it out for those too lazy to even click on links?

Hundreds of sets of remains have been uncovered so far, but researchers say they are only a tiny fraction of the deaths. The commission estimates at least 100,000 people were executed, in a South Korean population of 20 million.

That estimate is based on projections from local surveys and is "very conservative," said Kim. The true toll may be twice that or more, he told The Associated Press.

In addition, thousands of South Koreans who allegedly collaborated with the communist occupation were slain by southern forces later in 1950, and the invaders staged their own executions of rightists.

The 17 investigators of the commission's subcommittee on "mass civilian sacrifice," led by Kim, have been dealing with petitions from more than 7,000 South Koreans, involving some 1,200 alleged incidents - not just mass planned executions, but also 215 cases in which the U.S. military is accused of the indiscriminate killing of South Korean civilians in 1950-51, usually in air attacks.

The commission last year excavated sites at four of an estimated 150 mass graves around the country, recovering remains of more than 400 people. Working deliberately, matching documents to eyewitness and survivor testimony, it has officially confirmed two large-scale executions - at a warehouse in the central South Korean county of Cheongwon, and at Ulsan on the southeast coast.

source: //www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/19/905...