HUMAN RIGHTS IN IRAN

Just one example and result of Abdul Baha's Visit...

One Hundred years ago Abdul Baha came to the West ...

One Hunderd years later and generations later, the seed that He planted in the hearts of everyne He met has blossomed in the heart of many , like this young Irish man...  singing about the suffering of Iranians.

How can one explain the such intensity and care in this reveting expression of Love?

Oktaby , Some Questions.

Dear Oktaby 

I certainly didnt intend to appear as "holier than thou", unfortunately that may be due to either your misunderstanding or just simply the disparity between how much we both know or dont know about the subject of Abdul Baha or the Bahai religion in general; I say this because it is very apparent that your mind is closed to anything "religious" ; you dislike religion in general, and that has kept you from distingusihing The Bahai Religion, its history, teachings (from older , more dogmatic traditions) and  as a whole, and in particular its real world contributions to modernity, especially in Iran.

You have made the following statements, and each one deserves an answer; but instead my response would be to ask you questions, whose answers are based on reason and fact, not belief. One hopes that you would perhaps be challenged to respond, with reason with  at least some  knowledge and understanding and not based on your beliefs and distate about religions in general.

" All religions are good at selling hope because they have so little else to offer."

Question: Each Religion has lost its relevance in time, however, can you really disregard their influence on human civilisation in at least the last 7000  years?

Are you aware of who was the major influence on ancient Greek philosphers, like Socrates and Hippocrates? How significant is the influence of the Greek philosophers?

What gave the ancient Persians the moral fortitude? What did the religion of Zoroaster "offer"? Did Cyrus's religion influence his convictiona and actions described in the "Cylinder"? Why were his actions so unique for that time?

How important was the rise of Christianity?  What was its influence on the Roman Empire? How has it influenced Western civilisation? 

Was Islam at the height of its influence a regenerative force? What did Islam offer the world , at a time when Europe had sunk into the "dark ages" a period of cultural and economic deterioation? What did Islamic civilisation "offer" medieval Europe, in terms of art, architecture, medicine, agriculture, music, language and technology.

What has been the Bahai Influence, since its inception in Iran in the late 19th century; what has this new religion offered at first in the land of its birth? then to the world at large, despite its small numbers?

Has it offered  and promoted Advancement of Women, Social Progress, Education? 

"If we are going to have a hopeful future, we need to make intelligent choices and decision now independent of religious fallacies." 

What do you consider as a religious fallacy, as far as The Bahai Faith is concerned ? and what in your opinion is so unintelligent with regard to any Bahai belief?

What intelligent choice should be made in your opinion with regards to the future? What do you find hopeless or unintelligent about Bahai religious belief about the future ,which you call "fallacies"?

"Your hope of future is based on your belief. I'm sure Bahai's as other religions and cults would like to "...advent of the coming of a future global order..." as long as adventing is done by Bahai's. " 

Why are you so sure that my hopes are based on purely belief? would you like to know my reasons for such certitude and belief in an ultimately bright future?

Could the reasons for my belief be based on facts, historical record, and a proven track record of a series of events that have come to pass in the last one hundred years, related to major changes and world shaking events.?

"I'm sure as long as as Bahai's "will be devised"(ing), it'll be as sinister as the moslem, jew or christian version. The only reason your version still looks clean and kosher (kinda like Scientology) is you don't yet have their power or numbers to enforce your vision on rest of us. When you do, you may just make Khomeini et al proud. So my view is: What a big pile of bologna. "

If by "devised" you are referring to "A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity."

Hypocrisy and Sacrifice Just Don't Mix

Okraby, There are hundreds of articles and books written about 'Abdu'l Baha. These sources can be found easily via a short Internet search. All of these accounts will amply confirm that 'Abdul Baha was eager to return to the place of His imprisonment, Akka. Within a relatively short period of time,the first of the world wars began and hostility toward 'Abdu'l Baha from the Turks increased once more. The Turks threaten 'Abdul Baha and His entire family with crucifixion at the gates of Akka, once they successfully overcame the Allies. Instead the Turks were defeated. So I respectfully submit that a person who might have wanted to exploit his position as the leader of a new religious movement would not have renounced all that luxury to go back to the site of His imprisonment, where instead being constantly feted He was harrassed and threatened with death. During the war period the entire Levant was under a diasterous blockade. 'Abdul Baha had saved up enormous portions of grain which was distributed to the hungry in the Haifa area. To put it simply, these are not the deeds of a hypocrite. A quick check of historical fact will bear this all out for you. 

Dear Faryam,

Your "I have no desire for argument, but ...clarification." is 3 pages long. I won't engage but thanks for a valiant effort. I may have indulged you a bit, had your response not become a holier than thou sermon. Now some pointers for you:

-"with respect" means there is none. Not a good start. And I don't see the wherewithal for any quality based on your lecture. Par for the course when religious talk attempts to make sense.

-Most of what you said comes out of belief not reason. I do agree that if Iran were Bahai, it may have been a more civilized nation by now but it could have been a more self centered and less principaled (excluding the rapist republic) and .... since we are speculating. If my aunt had B@#%$, she'd be my uncle.

-You are covering points that have little to do with what I said or historical relevance. Your hope of future is based on your belief. I'm sure Bahai's as other religions and cults would like to "...advent of the coming of a future global order..." as long as adventing is done by Bahai's. All religions are good at selling hope because they have so little else to offer. If we are going to have a hopeful future, we need to make intelligent choices and decision now independent of religious fallacies.

And on the big bold quotation repeated twice, I'm sure as long as as Bahai's "will be devised"(ing), it'll be as sinister as the moslem, jew or christian version. The only reason your version still looks clean and kosher (kinda like Scientology) is you don't yet have their power or numbers to enforce your vision on rest of us. When you do, you may just make Khomeini et al proud. So my view is: What a big pile of bologna. Believe it if you want but don't preach it as though it actually says anything useful or worthwhile. If anything it sounds a bit Borg like and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of humans as a species.

For those who believe there are no questions. For those who don't there are no answers.

-Last one is a writing style point. Using go figure repeatedly in mock is just poor style. 

Oktaby

Fundamental belief; Vision and hope for the future..

Oktaby, Thank you for your response. I have no desire for argument, but see the need to add some facts for clarification.

An obvious indication of your inattention to detail on the original article and rush to judgement with your statement : "I know many many many people who have/do spend a life in service; or sacrifice life and livelihood for a cause, belief or just dedication. Yet none have a claim to fame, no claim of prophecy, holiness or priviledge"

which begs the question? 

Did Abdul Baha have any claim to greatness? did He claim to be anything but a "servant" as He insisted to be Called Abdul (servant) of Baha.

What is our reason for assuming that Abdul Baha had any claim on holiness or privilege? 

A Man spends most of his life, from childhood, as a prisoner of the Turks from 1852 to 1911, during which time He has dedicated himself to serving a cause and  his fellow men and promote his father's teachings ;winning the respect of both friend and foe. When He is free to travel, He does so with the sole intent to travel and promote ideas about peace and the advent of the coming of a future global order, what we today readily recognise as the global village, and the need for new ways of thinking.

With respect, oktaby, You are wise not to engage in any  "historical or detailed conversation" about the subject of Abdul Baha , as long as the depth and breadth of your assumptions show little prior knowledge about Abdul Baha , his life and mission ; your loose statements based on such superficial reasoning, with presumptions about his expenses and  the "oppulence " of  his short stay at a hotel, were he stayed as Guest of the local Bahai community, not to mention your issue as to why he spoke to an audience at Stanford.

This is a link to Abdul Baa's speech at Stanford University
//www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/PUP/PUP-109....

Perhaps your "skepticism" might be helped , if you cared to enquire , what did Abdul Baha have to say?

why did he travel at such an advanced age to the other side of the world?

and In retrospect ask, what were the subsequent consequences of his warnings ? even witinin two years of his return to Palestine ! never mind His vision of what is happening in the world today.

If you did care to find out, you might retract your comment :

" It is only in context of religion that humans can get away with fundamental lack of reason and replace it with stories, true or false, and then draw any half baked conclusion they want in a pre-determined context."

Fortunately, the "half baked" conclusions you refer to about this particular "religion", are well documented in historical records  of the last 150 years of Iranian social and political history with every reason to believe that, if Abdul Baha's ideas had been able to permeate in Iranian society, We the Iranian nation would have leaped ahead of the west at a time , when under the Qajars the majority of the population lived a miserable existence , leaving a legacy that left the clerical class as our "Marjah Taghlid" with the Mullahs as our leaders today.

Oktaby, if you had paid more attention to the substance of the facts; more about the clarity of His vision about the world tat would become the 20th Century; the substance of His message, and less about wanting to prove  religion "sucks", becuase the American Bahais' choice of his hotel; you as an Iranian would have been proud that 100 years ago,  or even today at a time when we still have the likes of the Khomeini and Khamenei, etc; a 68 year old Persian exile and prisoner could command such high regard attention and respect of leaders of thought with His knowledge of the world and the prerequisites of the coming Global society that is te world today ; a world desperately in need of new laws and institutions for global peace and governance.

One would have given you every right to be a skeptic in 1912, not knowing what was to become the 20h centur,  as many were, as they heard Abdul Baha's talks about His Father's teachings about the future; teachings that were later translated into English charting the possible course of a future Global society.

I leave you with the following, as an example of His vision and ; the substance of which escapes your attention ; what you refer to as a religion that"sucks", one whose followers " get away with fundamental lack of reason ", drawing "half baked conclusion they want in a pre-determined context".

You might find the following fascinating and educational,

especially the part in BOLD letters: 

"The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Bahá’u’lláh, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded.

This commonwealth must, as far as we can visualize it, consist of a world legislature, whose members will, as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and will enact such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples.

A world executive, backed by an international Force, will carry out the decisions arrived at, and apply the laws enacted by, this world legislature, and will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth. A world tribunal will adjudicate and deliver its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system.

A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity.

A world metropolis will act as the nerve center of a world civilization, the focus towards which the unifying forces of life will converge and from which its energizing influences will radiate. A world language will either be invented or chosen from among the existing languages and will be taught in the schools of all the federated nations as an auxiliary to their mother tongue.

A world script, a world literature, a uniform and universal system of currency, of weights and measures, will simplify and facilitate intercourse and understanding among the nations and races of mankind. In such a world society,  science and religion, the two most potent forces in human life, will be reconciled, will cöoperate, and will harmoniously develop.

The press will, under such a system, while giving full scope to the expression of the diversified views and convictions of mankind, cease to be mischievously manipulated by vested interests, whether private or public, and will be liberated from the influence of contending governments and peoples.

The economic resources of the world will be organized, its sources of raw materials will be tapped and fully utilized, its markets will be cöordinated and developed, and the distribution of its products will be equitably regulated.

National rivalries, hatreds, and intrigues will cease, and racial animosity and prejudice will be replaced by racial amity, understanding and cöoperation.

The causes of religious strife will be permanently removed, economic barriers and restrictions will be completely abolished, and the inordinate distinction between classes will be obliterated. Destitution on the one hand, and gross accumulation of ownership on the other, will disappear.

The enormous energy dissipated and wasted on war, whether economic or political, will be consecrated to such ends as will extend the range of human inventions and technical development, to the increase of the productivity of mankind, to the extermination of disease, to the extension of scientific research, to the raising of the standard of physical health, to the sharpening and refinement of the human brain, to the exploitation of the unused and unsuspected resources of the planet, to the prolongation of human life, and to the furtherance of any other agency that can stimulate the intellectual, the moral, and spiritual life of the entire human race." 

Apologies for the long post, I realise some of the above ideas are yet not conclusive perhaps still "half baked", but you must realise, Iranians were supposed to be the first beneficiary of this  Persian "religion" in the latter part of the 19th century, teachings and principles  that sprung from Iran.

Instead other societies embraced and were beneficiaries of its progressive ideas.

Nevertheless since time has passed and some  of these half baked conclusions are already "baked", and rest still baking until skeptic people and governements lose faith and scramble for survival searc for  answers..at a time of worsening  world conditions, social upheaval, economic dsitress ,political corruption, with bankrupcy of world leaders in finding a global solutions.

The outcome however seems "pre-determined" as long as there is "skepticism" and lack of hope and vision for the future.

regards

Faryar 

PS.

Do you think  the INTERNET was the "pre-determined context." for the statement  "A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity." ? 

or is it a "half baked conclusion" ? 

Go figure  :)

Dear Faryam,

I know many many many people who have/do spend a life in service; or sacrifice life and livelihood for a cause, belief or just dedication. Yet none have a claim to fame, no claim of prophecy, holiness or priviledge. Baha, for sure was abused and misused for sure and by who else but Moslems. I also think any Iranian Bahai is more Iranian than any Moslem any day of the week. However, in the grand schedme of things, religion sucks, and that of course is my humble opinion. It is only in context of religion that humans can get away with fundamental lack of reason and replace it with stories, true or false, and then draw any half baked conclusion they want in a pre-determined context.

And to be sure, I pointed out contradictions in the articles and what was in the blog; and have no intention of engaging in a historical or detailed conversation about Baha. I'm sure believers find that fascinating and educational. You likely can tell what I think of it and that I mean no disrepect but my skepticism is as fundamental as your belief. Go figure :) 

Oktaby

...........

* Not to confirm or Deny *

till last week I did not knew that he spent most of his life from the age of 8 to 64 in prison with his father !

All the other events are worldly sponsored......

mostly by them Brits.

Maziar

Dear Oktaby

Dear Oktaby,

In the last One hundred years , Most have seen greatness, in a life dedicated to service and sacrifice ; regretfully,  you after reading a few lines see "scam"..?

Go Figure   :) 

I hope you are able to benefit from reading a few more lines for a more mature judgement and a sure answer to all your questions.

Respectfully

Faryar. 

PS.

Here is what nine speakers, who represented the Muslim, the Jewish and Christian Faiths, said about Abdul Baha at His funeral in Palestine in 1921, where Abdul Baha had spent most of His life as aan exile and captive of the Ottoman Turks,  away from His native land Iran.

"O concourse of Arabians and Persians! Whom are ye bewailing? Is it he who but yesterday was great in his life and is today in his death greater still? Shed no tears for the one that hath departed to the world of Eternity, but weep over the passing of Virtue and Wisdom, of Knowledge and Generosity. Lament for yourselves, for yours is the loss, whilst he, your lost one, is but a revered Wayfarer, stepping from your mortal world into the everlasting Home. Weep one hour for the sake of him who, for well nigh eighty years, hath wept for you! Look to your right, look to your left, look East and look West and behold, what glory and greatness have vanished! What a pillar of peace hath crumbled! What eloquent lips are hushed! Alas! In this tribulation there is no heart but aches with anguish, no eye but is filled with tears. Woe unto the poor, for lo! goodness hath departed from them, woe unto the orphans, for their loving father is no more with them! Could the life of Sir `Abdu'l-Bahá `Abbas have been redeemed by the sacrifices of many a precious soul, they of a certainty would gladly have offered up their lives for his life. " 

FULL TEXT

//info.bahai.org/article-1-3-4-4.html

You see greatess

I see hypocricy.

Never mind why he ended up in NY and how his 'feelings' prevented him from going on Titanic's maiden voyage; something every prophet 'who is not a prophet' must do at least once. And never mind what business he was thinking of having had he boarded Titanic....    How is it that this 'prophet' has so much money to afford this at a time that Iranians are effectively piss poor, he goes all the way to the wild west, lands in "The Ansonia was the most opulent hotel in New York..." of all places, and who knows what other godly acts (par for the course by the way, as far as holy men are concerned) and finds his way to the nascent Stanford University to tell about equality and love of humanity. Go figure.

You see greatness and I see just another scam; albeit a more civilized scam than Islam.

Oktaby