Atar

Your begging of difference, makes no difference

Facts are facts. Per the definitions you are using, the post in question constitutes an explicit hate-crime committed against an individual. Whatever comments followed it are also irrelevent to the trajectory of the facts, namely, that the content by Mr Mansouri preceded any such comments you are attempting to highlight which followed it. And all comments made by the poster in question are valid and well argued comments, albeit embarrassing to the Haifan Bahais and their cause. A person expressing their opinion that is far from flattering to this creed is the basic problem here and why the Haifan Bahais regularly go out of your way to have such views silenced, whilst arguing that such cases of hate-crime committed by them are not, when they are. In a non-kangaroo court environment other than Javidland IC, this is how the facts would be seen by an impartial court and jury -- the one thing Haifan Baha'is fear above all else (as the verdict in the Illinois courtroom proved).

Action has been taken. And criminal trials are brought by the state, never by an individual. You clearly don't know anything about law.

Thanks for your other sentiments.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Aryana-Vaeja

I'm afraid I beg to differ. I have seen no evidence of "hate-speech", just a series of allegations. The link you posted as evidence, seemed to be no more than a response, by the person who posted the article, to Mr. Nuri Azal's comments on Bahais on this website. In fact, I have seen far more vitriol in Mr. Nuri Azal's comments towards Bahais than the other way round.

I don't know if you are being truthful or not, or blowing things out of proprtion or not, so I'm in no position to pass judgement. But the reason why I asked for credible evidence or, in the absence of that, any court conviction (even one) as a result of the numerous examples of persecution that you are alleging, was to see if there has been concrete basis of your assertions.

I do take your point that criminal prosecutions are expensive and time consuming, but since this matter is clearly of importance to you and the impact that you say it has made on your life, I would've thought that some action would've been taken.

Anyway, in the great scheme of things it matters not. I support your right to your views, as I would anyone's. And if you have been wronged, I sincerely this won't happen again. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Bottled

You asked for evidence of hate-speech by Bahais on this site and you have been given one. Beyond that you are just making irrelevent excuses now. Your evidence has been provided where this website is concerned. The personality of this or that individual poster is irrelevent since other than a few people everyone (including yourself) is using aliases to post here.

That stated, like the mafia mainstream Baha'is exercise a strict code of omerta. They and their institutions will cover for each other when in proximity when breaking the law or criminally harrassing individuals, or commit blatant criminal acts in jurisdictions outside of the purview of one where they can be tried and convicted. For example, there is an individual Baha'i in Peru (apparently much respected by the Baha'i community there) who if they ever step in the jurisdiction I live in will find themselves behind bars. Also court cases cost money, as the Orthodox Bahais and BUPC have found out, and the Haifan Bahais have deep pockets whereby they can keep themselves from convictions for as long as possible. Strategies like the ones adopted by Dan, myself and similar (not to mention Namah Pyritz) work far more effectively in the longterm in bringing the mainstream Bahai organization to book than relying on the Western court system that can be easily manipulated with money and lawyers from bringing this organization and its malefeasant individuals to book. Besides the legal strategies and formulas of organizations such as Scientology have been studied very closely by the Haifan Bahai organization.

Beyond the West, once this accursed regime in Iran is finally rooted out of existence, be-omide Izad soon, then the outcome of many things will be playing themselves out in the theatre of the resurrected Iran. The Haifan Baha'i authorities know this too which is why they have spent so much time, money and effort in recent years attempting to carve themselves power, alliance and influence in the future post-IR Iran. But be assured, whatever the final outcome, the Haifan Bahai organization will be fighting for its dear life once that day finally arrives. I am convinced it will lose the battle ultimately, but we shall see.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Aryana-Vaeja

Are you Mr. Nuri Azal, who has previously been on record on this site, numerous times, stating it is a mission of his life to do everything in his power to bring down the Bahai Faith, or words to that efect?

Regardless, if you have been the target of physical violence or any other kind of intimidation for that matter, I utterly condemn that.

You do compile a long list of allegations though, so without wishing to go into the details of those, can I ask if any of the Bahais that have committed these wrongs against you, be they any kind of violence or harassment or verbal intimidation etc, ever been convicted of these acts in a recognized court of law? I ask since I assume you must've contacted the relevant legal authorities about this plethora of "criminal acts" against you, as any reasonable person would.

Haifan BAO policy to silence critics

Acts of physical violence are not the only gauge or context of persecution or censorship. All the theoretical literature on the sociology of violence demonstrates that violence and persecution can also take on other more sophisticated (and sinister) forms. The Haifan organization employs and has employed many methods of crafty psychological violence and social ostracism and destruction of its ideological enemies which requires little to no physical violence. But if it is all the same, I personally have in the past been the target of physical violence by Baha'is for my views, in September 2000, as a matter of fact. Moreover physical violence and even homicide have occured in the history of Bahaism, and ones committed by Baha'is against non-Bahais.

That aside, I personally have had email accounts and blogs hacked, my privacy violated as well as wrongfully and criminally impersonated several times now by members of the Haifan Bahai organization for merely engaging in heated debate against Bahaism online. I have documentary evidence of this some of which I have shared with others in the past. You may engage in the patented and defensive argumentative denial tactic online Bahais are known well for, but this doesn't change the fact that such patterns of behavior do exist and engaged in by the mainstream Haifan Bahais against ideological enemies. The fact that apostates have been named and lawsuits launched against rivals more than adequately demonstrates that these are not mere allegations, but rather substantive facts.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

delete

delete

Bahai hate-speech on IC

Here is a very eminent one: 

//iranian.com/main/blog/faryarm/sincere-open-letter-posted-web-1990s-about-nima-wahid-azal-nur-his-close-friend-terry

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Mr. Husband

I took a look at the link you posted and all I can gather from it is that one of your websites was hacked by someone/some people. Is this correct?

You allege that the person who did this must've been a Bahai, which may or may not be true, I don't know (and whoever it is, they should be condemned for this act regardless), but does this really amount to deliberate, organised and concerted "censorship" by the Bahai Instituitions?

Can you offer concrete and credible proof that Bahais are trying to silence you and have used acts of violence or intimidation to achieve their dastardly objective? For example, have Bahais or Bahai institutions stopped you or tried to stop you from posting your comments/articles on this site (iranian.com)?

Websites all over the net, including many Bahai ones I might add, have been and continue to be hacked frequently. This should not happen, but it is an unfortunate fact of the online world that it does. However, should we automatically extrapolate from this that in your case, there is a deliberate and official Bahai conspiracy to silence you? And does the hacking of a website amount to a similar level of persecution to that suffered by Bahais in Iran?

Aryana-Vaeja, I totally agree with you that anyone should have the right to speak and be heard. For my part, I never said otherwise. But I'm still interested in credible examples of what you allege to be engagement by Bahais in the past "in outright hate-speech", if you'd be kind enough to offer any.

Also speaking for myself ...

Hi Bottled,

There's nothing that puzzling going on here. I'm sure that there are Bahá'í youth with reasonably untroubled upbringings, but I myself have had experience with Bahá'ís molesting children, Bahá'í friends participating in child porn rings, parents ostracizing their own children for lack of faith, institutions marginalizing and ostraciszing homosexuals and women's rights advocates, etc., ...

... but these things happen everywhere. I understand that Bahá'ís are human beings. Still, there are essential problems with the Bahá'í religion that Bahá'ís generally attempt to conceal. What I offer is not proof that the Bahá'í religion is worse than other forms of Islam, Mormonism, etc., but rather that it is remarkably similar. The reason why I criticize the Bahá'í religion in particular is my specific knowledge of the Bahá'í religion. It's the flavor of dogmatism that I am best equipped to criticize. I leave criticism of other forms of Abrahamic nonsense to those who know those other forms more intimately. My role in this context is simply to counteract the aggressive proselytization and indoctrination campaigns of the Bahá'ís. I'm here to offer their children a countrargument. Is that so insidious?

Namaste,

Dan

Anahid

Any form of marginalization of dissent or silencing of an opinion or point of view is persecution. That is where all persecution starts.  Mainstream Baha'is do a lot of that and this site has a highly blemished record of censorship in that regard in silencing and marginalizing any voices that raise dissent or opposition to the mainstream Baha'is and their behavior. Furthemore the mainstream Bahais have not served their own long term cause very well by engaging in such behavior here or elsewhere, nor has the webmaster of IC.

Dan and similar people have a right to be heard and their criticisms considered. Also hate speech is a loaded politically-correct term which is empty of any real  and substantial theoretical objectivity. Mainstream Baha'is here have in the past engaged in  outright hate-speech themselves, but never reprimanded for it, whereas others who have put the shoe on the other foot have been outright banned. This is double-standards and also says that there is an entrenched clique on this site determined to silence anyone and everyone who raises a single voice of objective opposition to the mainstream Baha'is. If this is what the future holds where mainstream Baha'is and their opposition are concerned, then Iranians everywhere beyond this site should know about it right now so that tomorrow once this regime finally collapses the Iranian nation is not placed in a similar situation with the mainstream Baha'is as it has been with Khomeini and the IRI.  

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Response to bottled-banana

See this blog entry for a suspected case of Baha'is persecuting dissenters:

//iranian.com/main/blog/dale-husband/attack-unitarian-bahai-blog

And yes, I consider censorship to be a form of persecution. Maybe Aryana-Vaeja does too. 

Dale Husband, the Honorable Skeptic

I can only speak for myself, but...

...as a child being brought up in a Bahai family I never felt I was being brainwashed, merely because my parents told me about the Faith. I always had the choice and freedom to make my own decision, and this is exactly what I have done. But that's just me. I don't claim to speak on behalf of other people.

There are aspects of the Bahai Faith and indeed actions of certain Bahais that I am critical of, but on the whole it's been a very positive influence on my life, and, I hope, made me a better human being. So I have no absolutely no issue with anyone who criticises Bahai ideals. Indeed, I would always support their right to do so. Otherwise how else can we have open and honest discussion and exchange of ideas?

Although I wouldn't consider myself particularly religious, I have to say that (as far as I'm aware) I have never engaged in "regularly persecuting" anyone, nor have I ever witnessed other Bahais "regularly persecuting" anyone with different views.

So, I'm curious to know, how Bahais are persecuting the so called "ex-Baha'is and schismatic Baha'is", by those making this accusation? Are Bahais engaging in criminal acts, e.g. physically beating, torturing, imprisoning, threatening, violently intimidating the persecuted people in question? Do, people making these accusations, also claim that these acts of persecution by Bahais are common and widespread? If so, have Bahais have been convicted of such acts in a recognized court of law where the alleged persecutions have taken place?

I'd be grateful for any response.

Jahanshah does a great job of drawing the line at hate speech

Actually, Jahanshah does a great job of drawing the line at hate speech and has faithfully expunged comments and blogs that go too far.  The Baha'i Faith is still not that well understood by a lot of Iranians and there has been a built-in cultural chauvinism directed at Baha'is by Iranians since it began (It's not exactly big news that religious minorities don't do so well in Muslim societies). Also, it absolutely true that Baha'is are not perfect thmeselves and they should not take offense if someone complains about them.

Nevertheless, I really think Iranians will evolve away from their age-old prejudices. I even believe that in time, when Iranians come to realize what the Baha'i Faith stands for and how many millions of people have embraced it all over the world, they will learn to be proud that the roots of this religion came from their own unforgettable land. The Baha'i Faith contains the heart of Persian culture at its very best and has spread that culture worldwide.

What a few people blogging at their desks have to say about something they don't understand is hardly worth commenting upon or arguing about. 

It is not just Bahais who teach their religion to their kids

I really don't want to get involved too much in these discussions but couple replies to me make it look like Bahais are the only ones who teach their religion to their kids and that is not the case. My daughter used to go to a Christian school for 1st grade and sometimes she would come home and say the weirdest things. All organized religions try to teach their beliefs. Also in a reply to me, it was written that Bahais persecute ex Bahais. If an ex Bhais writes bad about their former friends and they respond,however strongly, that is different from what goes on in Iran. It is not even comnparable. What you have is diffences between some bahais and then issues with ex members.

Persecution of the Baha'is

Thanks, Aryana!

Anahid, let me make myself clear. I would like nothing more than the liberation of the Iranian people from that foul, theocratic regime that currently oppresses them. Furthermore, I am vehemtly opposed to the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran, and even more, to the barbaric treatment of homosexuals in Iran. I am not at all happy about the destruction of Bahá'í cemeteries, nor am I happy about the neglect and destruction of pre-Islamic archeological sites. Generally, I am saddened that the Islamic regime makes Iranians look like ignorant, barbarian Nazis. Iranians should not have to live under the boots of such medeival tyrants. Iran is a great nation. It deserves better.

Yes, I have a poor opinion of the Bahá'í religion, for I have seen what it can do to people—particularly children. As a former child of Bahá'í upbringing, I consider it my duty to speak out about the dogmatism that I have been liberated from, but that does not mean that I think Bahá'ís ought to be imprisoned for their beliefs. They're not about to take up arms against the Ayatollahs. They should be left alone, so I can discuss the Bahá'í religion without being accused of being a persecutor! Why is it so easy to conflate opposition with persecution? I only seek to free the children of Bahá'ís from the chains of indoctrination, and the key to the lock that binds those chains is not persecution; it's information. Would you have me gagged?

May we all live to see the day when Iranians are free to worship and speak openly without fear of persecution! May we all live to see that day when children are seen as something other than pawns to be programmed!

Anahid

Outside of Iran there are also non-violent ex-Baha'is and schismatic Baha'is who are regularly persecuted by the mainstream Baha'is. Because mainstream Baha'is are persecuted by the mullahs, does not mean those persecuted by the mainstream Baha'is outside Iran should remain silent about their persecution by the mainstream Baha'is. If there are anti-Bahai blogs (which this one isn't) then perhaps there is a reason for this otherwise such blogs would not exist.  Dan is an American and not remotely connected with the regime in Iran. He is an ex-Bahai and has explained his reasons. The slant of this whole site has regularly been to silence all ex-Bahais and schismatic Baha'is to the benefit of the mainstream Bahais. Perhaps people should listen more and judge less, and just remain neutral and not pick sides. Besides in a real democracy (not a facade of one) all sides should be listened to dispassionately.

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

Why does IC have so many anti Bahai blogs?

I am not a Bahai but I am just starting to think that lately Iranian.com has too many anti Bahai blogs. Bahais are a persecuted minority in Iran. They have been killed, jailed and prevented from going to university and like any other group, there are positive and negative points about them. However, they seem to be getting too much negative publicity on IC. Is there any reason for this? After all, Bahais are non violent, they never took arms like Mojahedin and it is not like we have to warn people so much about them. If someone does not like them, they don't have to become Bahai. I do find so many anti Bahai blogs on IC boring and also counter productive to the fight against IRI.

Good blog & good comments by Dan

Good job, Dan ;-)

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May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Zoroastrian prayer

speaking of dogs

May be or may be not. You will never know will you?

Protests too much?

Dear Cyclic,

It seems to me that you've found something to preach about after all! Good for you. I wonder what motivates you to waste your precious time here. Got a dog in this race?

Dear Igneous

Great to meet you and happy to see you here. I also do have a lot of opinions about religion in general and life as a whole. I however don't come and preach it here. If you feel bad about Baha'i faith and good about Zoroastrian faith, then more power to you. I also have a lot of good and bad feeling about al lot of things but I usually don't bore others with it.

Dear Igneous

Great to meet you and happy to see you here. I also do have a lot of opinions about religion in general and life as a whole. I however don't come and preach it here. If you feel bad about Baha'i faith and good about Zoroastrian faith, then more power to you. I also have a lot of good and bad feeling about al lot of things but I usually don't bore others with it.

True Colors

Tahirih,

My true color is between me and God. Do you think that being a Baha'i makes you a judge of souls? You present a fine example of the arrogance that theism can stoop to (at its worst), but don't fret: I'm not judging your true color. I'll leave that to God.

Namaste,

Dan

So what's the point?

Hey Cyclic,

The point of the post was to introduce myself, and the arc of the influence of Iran on my life. Since this site features Iran, I thought I ought to introduce myself in an Iranian context. I didn't want to beat any particular issue to death. That'll come later. ;-)

Cheers,

Fire Worshiper Dan

Rauol

I think you got me wrong. I have no objection in posting something my only question is that what is the point of this post. What is the author trying to accomplish?

To 'Okay'

The purpose of blog sites is for the folks to post whatever they feel and care for, and for folks to read, or to ignore.  If one follows your 'logic' then one can respond to any posting as '...why should anyone else care, or why should I care,' etc.
Cheers,

Dan thanks for your comment....

since it helps the readers to see your true color which is DARK!

I agree with cyclic forward, why do you feel like exposing Bahai's corrupt ideas??????? Let the readers go to www.bahai.org and investigate for themselves. For too long Iranians have been TOLD about the truth!! let them decide for themselves!

With the hope of freedom for all in Iran,

Tahirih

Okay,

As far as I am concerned you can worship the tree outside my window and  that doesn't bother me a bit. I just don't understand why is it important for us to know what you feel about this and that.

Idolators have such a thing for names!

Tahirih: my name has always remained the same: Dan Jensen. I have never hesitated to use it. Igneous1 is just a fun handle. I don't see the point in making so much about names, but I know: names are a big deal to Bahá'ís and other idolators.

The difference between Judaism and Christianity is substantial. Islam is much more Judaic that Christianity. Unlike Baha'u'llah, Christ had no Kitab-i-Aqdas. Christ brought a very simple, radical law, whereas Baha'u'llah's message followed an Islamic framework. In the Iqan he regurgitates the Qur'an. In the Aqdas, he attempts to update Sha'riah. Baha'u'llah was Muslim through and through, right down to his polygamous lifestyle. His son Abbas was different, and that is where some of the international character of the Bahá'í religion originates, but much of the changes brought by Abbas were superficial. The Bahá'í religion remains the religion of Bahá the Muslim.

Which Baha'i faith are you looking at?

Igneous1, or ...., or........, or ,......., well lets just call you by your new name, remember me? Tahirih, always Tahirih!

Anyhow, as you knew, I was raised as a Muslim and became a Baha'i, what your saying has absolutely no truth in it. Baha'i faith is an independent religion, and it's relation to Islam is like judaism to Christianity, that is all.

For the readers I recommend to go to www.bahai.org and investigate for yourself to see which one of us is telling the truth about Bahai faith.

As a bahai I have the most respect for Zoroaster, he is the first Persian prophet ,but we are so lucky that God blessed us with the second Persian messenger , which is Bahaullah( glory of God).

Tahirih