Jahanshah Javid

Grapes & Donkeys

*NOT_AK69* - If Exodus of the Old Testament is the best you can do, then you are waaaaay out of date.  Many people have since upgraded their operating systems to Windows 7 Ultimate and you, and others like you, are still complaining about Windows 3.1!

Many of us are learning to see people just as human beings and not as white, female, atheist, religious, black, male, etc.  The emphasis is on oneness of humanity and friendship with others.  It is not a big deal to be able to get along with similarly minded people.  The challenge is to seek fellowship with those we find different from ourselves.

You are absolutely correct that I’m nobody to question God’s wisdom in having created atheists.  In his wisdom, he’s also created grapes & donkeys too.  No questions there either.   I suppose every creature has a purpose for existing.  I hope all of us can find our purpose in life.

I’d imagine the normal response to your comment “…like you have treated us through history,” would be to start listing the litany of crimes against humanity committed by the atheists; but, instead, my “diseased mind” wants to thank you for having read the Old Testament.  In the spirit of fellowship, I wish you’d also read the latest testament before thinking that “the self righteous impious bastards” deserve this appalling fate.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.  I don’t have a problem with your atheism.  You’re the one objecting to my theism.  And somehow, in this equation, I’m the discriminating, persecuting, demonizing, prejudicial, intolerant religious freak!  

Some Spin!

Anvar

So...

NOT_AK69, let's say most people are not religious or believe in god, just for the sake of argument.

Ok, how should the rest of the population, the religious people, be treated?

Cry Me A River & Check Your Stats

These religious freaks have for centuries discriminated, persecuted, demonized and shown intolerance and prejudice towards any and all that did not believe in their favorite god; and now, after all their sacred bloodshed, they get a little taste of their own medicine (“an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot” Exodus 21:24) and the self righteous impious bastards have the utter gall to cry foul.

Further, and it seems to be repeatedly with you JJ Joon, you make fallacious claims. As a “publisher” and one that resides in Northern California, I am astonished that you assert that 99% of the world is religious. Do you understand? Remember summertime when nearly all the national press covered the findings of the 20 sum year study and trending of the increasing percentage of the world populous that is now non-religious (aka sane).

PS Tell the ignorant pache khar below me to lookup the definition of “bigoted” since no one is targeted a racial or ethnic group; religion is neither, so get over it and pray to your favorite god we don’t treat you like you have treated us through history.

KMPAx2

AK69

Thank you JJ, I would add

But worse than the possibility of being bogus, they can also be bigoted and that attribute they share with their bigoted atheists who feel they have the monopoly on truth and that gives them authority for persecution and discrimination, and worse still, exploiting it for their imperialist crusades.

Do you understand?

NOT_AK69 Joon, I think all religions are bogus.

But that does not mean 99% of the world population should be discriminated or persecuted by their government or by another religious group for believing in god or their favorite religion.

Do you understand?

.

.

Religion is a disease of the mind, my friend...

"God made me an atheist.
Who are you to question his wisdom."

Even God has expectations when he/she pays for it..... don't you think,JJ Jooon?

AK69

the Baha'i sandwich foroush (to Nur-i-Azal)

Wahid says: " But the regimentation of this organization ultimately forces many of these same individuals to participate in the abuses of the organization."

Wahid-e azeez, just like some other poster said, you have my total sympothy. In fact in my case you have my deep sympathy, because I (as an outsider-non Muslim, non Bahai) personally saw some individuals participated in the abuses of organization .

My point however, as I said in my earlier comment  (the one that was censored) is that  when Muslim fanatics chased away this Baha'i fellow who started a sandwich place in Shiraz, ...., they did not chase him away because of his abuse of other Bahai's, they didn't chase him away because they identified him as a mainstream or Orthodox Bahai, they didn't even chase him for his tasteless cutlet or sossiss bandari sandwiches, ........., but they chased him because he was different, to them he was just a generic Bahai!.

BTW, if they had chased him away for his tasteless sandwiches I as a gourmet eater would have absolutely no sympathy with him!

Nuri

You have my sympathy with regards to your situation. I suffered abuse by Catholics when I questioned the Resurrection (among other things) in School and said everything can be explained through science. And you can imagine the punishments … But my difficulty with your continuous “ghor zadan” is that it is unfair to put readers here in a position to judge your grievances, as this is not a court of law and the facts have not been presented by both sides. There may have been other factors in play so we do not know the whole story. And the BAHAI governing body is not here to put their side across. To hear this again and again and does you no favours, although as I said I do have sympathy for you and I know that Iranian communities can be cliquey. If the Bahai religion is so bad people will leave it, as they do other religions. People need to experience things for themselves. “Anti-“ rants do the opposite and make people sympathetic towards the rantee (a new word I just created).  If you have a real case take them to court. Also, is it not a case of "the pot calling the kettle black" when you accuse Bahais of being "glaze-eyed cultist types", when you belong to a cult yourself. And for them to be "hijacking the Green Movement" when all they want is a more humane Iran to gain basic Human Rights? Come on sometimes you can be very cruel ...

Proof - Azali style!

Technically!! Every time  Azali finds himself desperate to prove his own arguments (which is in fact on every single occasion) his qualifier is this: Technically. For example, technically there has never been an Islamic massacre of non Muslims, technically  Mirza Yahya was the rightful successor to Bab, technically, Baha'is were not murdered by fanatic Muslims, technically Baha'i faith is not 160 years old, technically, Khomeini was paid by Baha'is to kill other Baha'is, technically, Azalis were not conspiring against the Baha'is in cooperation with the IRI and oh, yes, technically Qur'an contains 1000 records of the word esgh.

Technically, Azali how many Azalis were persecuted by the IRI?

Technically! :)

جناب آقای نور الا نور دامت برکات

جسارتاً عرض کنم که این حرفا بهت نمیاد. تو اندازهٔ این چیزا نیستی‌.  بیخودی ناراحت نشو. نصف این مردم الله اکبر گو مسلمان نیستن. این دولت ولایت فقیر هم که فرقی بین بهائی ارتداکس و معمولی‌ که نمدنه. از خر شیطون بیو پایین بذار مردم از مردم حمایت کنن وگرنه خدایی نکرده فردا آقای کروبی رو زندانی کنن همه تو ایرانیان دات کام میگن من لرم. حالا تصمیم خودته میخی‌ لر بشی‌ یا بهائی. یه کارم نکن منم بهائی شم، اونوقت تویی‌ و انگشت من. ارادت.

JJ, count your own blessings

You must be living on a different planet, or are playing your usual moosh-mordegi chameleon self!

In the very same United States that you beat your chest for so loudly these days, baradar, small groups, entities and individuals are regularly run over rough shod mercilessly by corporate and governmental authorities as they would under any authoritarian and totalitarian state. If you wish, start a blog and I can prove to you how justice in your beloved U.S. of A operates and is virtually nonexistent for those without financial muscle or political patronage of some description just as in Iran under the mullahs. And since you bring up persecution, to this day the US Justice Department and the ATF have not come clean about what actually transpired in Waco, Texas in Spring 1993 when they stormed the Mount Carmel compound and set it alight killing virtually everyone in it.

Jeffrey has a serious point, and you are a hypocrite for trying to nonchalantly dismiss his case here and trivialize it when you are beating your chest for a community who are obviously paying your bills here and making the heftiest financial contributions to this site. Go ahead and now censor me for calling a spade a spade!

Kharmagas jan

The Haifan Baha'i organization is a tight, regimented organization like many Iron curtain era Communist parties. Yes, individual people are generally not involved in the abuses of this organization. But the regimentation of this organization ultimately forces many of these same individuals to participate in the abuses of the organization. I know this first hand from personal experience given what they tried to do in my family when I went public with my opposition. The organization uses family members against each other in cases of dissent, callously ripping people apart and destroying lifetime relationships because of ideology, and because of this ideological regimentation 9 out of 10 times people do usually comply. The only Haifan Baha'is who can generally be relied on to do the right thing are those who have gone inactive and been turned off by the heavy handed totalitarianism of the organization. The rank and file active Haifan Bahai, however, is generally a glaze-eyed cultist type, an operative fascist and sectarian bigot. The examples on this site are legion.

Hooshie

They don't appear for good reason. The Haifan Baha'i organizition is a serious liability to the bona fide stream of the Green movement, especially since switched on people not beholden to Anglo-American interests realize that your organization uses (or exagerrates) human rights abuses towards its community as primarily a political crutch to 1) keep itself relevent in the media, 2) to foster manufactured sympathy towards its cause in order to keep carving political power and 3) because the Haifan Bahai organization are the same bunch of theocrats as the Khomeinists (they do not believe or practice either secularism or democracy) and whose leash is held tightly and on a short rope by the same cabal of globalist shills responsible for the mess of the past 31 years in Iran.

...

This is for my hammihanan mehraban va bavafa
for your supports and encouraging words to defend the rights of Baha'is.

With warmest regards and gratitude

Mona, an Iranian Baha'i  ;)

Noticeable absentees

Have you noticed that a number of so called supporters of human rights (from the Green movement and Moosavi supporters up to and incuding the leftees) on this site are always absent when it comes to declare their support for the individuals or communities (like Baha'is) who are the target of the injustices of the Islamic regime. I am not here to name and shame anyone, but I am sure you know who I am talking about. These people come from either different shades of pro-regime factions (from Ahmadinejad to Khatami and Moosavi), or have strong old style leftist sympathies (Toodehi) or strong right wing sympathies (Shahollahi).

Now can you guess who these people are?

to all Bahai's ...Keep up the good work...

To the Non- Bahais.....  no one is forcing you to be a bahai....

you are free to to what you wish....

to the ones that hate the Bahais... you are also free to do what you wish... we will forgive you .....

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Just dont spread lies and false hoods about something that you know nothing

but hey, WHO gets to decide?

with all respect to your thought, re: "But hey let's create more cults and fake religions and keep fragmenting the Iranian society  . . ."

but hey, WHO gets to decide which one is a "cult or a fake religion?" Isn't that how scary scenarios start entering the picture? When one dominant mindset starts to discriminate between acceptable beliefs and non-acceptable beliefs? 

cults and/or fake religions tend to self-destruct or fade away.  ever notice how the ambitions to uniformity were a glaring problem of the facist states of the 20th century? . . . I am trying to think of a highly diverse society that turned upon its own people while dictating one dominant belief and/or behavior as a social good. I admit I am not a scholar, but I can't think of an example. It always seems that closed societies with monolithic ambitions, whether religious, ethnic or racial, have become nations that limp frantically toward genocide and abuse. Certainly Iran was more diverse religiously in terms of its population 30 years ago, than she is at present.  Maybe less restrictive religious policies would be strengthen Iran, not weaken it.

 just a thought . . . with all respect

Guard

No worries about the gender confusion. I guess Adib isn't that common of a name anyway. :) 

Soon Iranian.com should grant the right to post comments only to those who have a Ph.D. 

Exaggeration is unnecessary; I don't have a PhD, I've just taken the time to conduct meticulous research on these topics. 

and can write outlandish mumbo jumbo. 

When you bring data that is [legitimately] contrary to what I wrote earlier, then your comment will hold water. Until then, it is research, and least of all "outlandish mumbo jumbo."

I would say that as a sign of good gesture the Bahais should move their Bahai shrine in Haifa Israel to somewhere else in the world like the United States or Australia etc.

Why should we move? Because so many Iranians make the non sequitur conclusion that we are Zionists because of the location of our most sacred sites?

Our holy places are in Haifa and Akka because those cities were an integral part of Baha'u'llah's life; he spent time there during the final 24 years of his exile. He didn't go to Australia or America. He went to Haifa and Akka. And when he went to Haifa and Akka, they were not in Israel, because Israel did not exist (he died in 1892, almost 60 years before Israel became a nation, and years before Herzl came up with the idea of what Zionism even was). At that time, those two cities were in Palestine. Therefore, when Baha'u'llah died in Akka in 1892, there was no Israel, no Zionism, no nothing - there was only a Palestine, and all Israeli issues were, by association, completely irrelevant.

Perhaps you think it would be easier to let wild conclusions run rampant in the minds of many misinformed Iranians and pick up our shrines and move elsewhere, but I think it is imperative to rectify their misconceptions through the dissemination of incontrovertible historical facts.

But hey let's create more cults and fake religions and keep fragmenting the Iranian society so that enemies of Iran can more easily divide and conquer us. 

Is this what your rare, not readily available information tells you? The same things that the incumbents of the Iranian regime and those in their upper echelons have been spouting like a broken record player for decades?

Guard, unity is the raison d'être of the Baha'i Faith. Anybody who has even a cursory knowledge of our principles can tell you that. Therefore, trying to divide and incite internal chaos within Iran - a whimsical notion conjured up by conspiracy theorists - would be completely antithetical to the mission that lies at the very core of the Baha'i Faith: to bring peace to the world.

There isn't really anything else that can be said to such an outrageous thought. 

and consider unity in diversity nothing more than a cliche. 

Sorry to hear that. But it's really quite an obvious phenomenon that's alive and well: people of different cultures, backgrounds, languages, socioeconomic status, and outlook on life all professing belief in one faith and belonging to one community. That isn't a fairy tale: it's Haifa, Israel during pilgrimage, and many Baha'i communities throughout the world. It's a diverse body of adherents united under one belief system - precisely the definition of unity in diversity. If you see otherwise in Iran, then blame the government for not allowing us to say anything even tangentially related to our faith without being put at risk of incarceration.

I apologize if I've hijacked this thread. 

Dear Immortal Guard

You cover a lot of topics in your post (sign of a highly active brain). Allow me however just to pick up on a couple of issues you raised. First, thank you for supporting full citizenship rights for Bahais in Iran. But I'm somewhat perplexed by some of the other points you raise. Perhaps you'll be kind enough to clarify these, if you can spare the time.

You state that members of a minority in Iran Bahais "should not be permitted to appropriate more power than the majority which means that they should never be allowed to hold too many key industry and government positions". May I ask who is advocating that Bahais should be allowed to hold "too many" key industry and government positions? Also, I'm not clear how many "too many" is?

You go on to give the example of Ashkenazi Jews in the USA (alongside White Christians) who hold real power there, as opposed to people like Obama (presumably meaning African Americans and other non-white minorities). Did it not occur to you that Ashkenazi Jews are also a minority there?

But the most important point, IMO and many others who have posted in support of the Bahais here, is that all we are asking is for Bahais to have the same rights and be equal before the law of land in Iran, no more, no less. We are not asking for any favouritism or preferential treatment.

The other fundamental point that I find incomprehensible is that (and this not addressed to you personally) why do we constantly think of ourselves and other Iranians in terms of "majority" and minority", when it comes to such issues? Surely we want the best people, those with the right talent, abilities and skills, to be in the service of Iran, whether in the public and private sector, regardless of their personal beliefs and ethnicity, do we not? So what it does it matter, if they happen to Bahais, Muslims, Jewish, Christians, Zoroastrian, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, or just ordinary people who don't care for supporting or opposing religions/political beliefs etc, as long as they are the best people for whatever position?

On one hand you call for unity among Iranians and abhor the fragmentation of the society there (and I support you on both counts), but on the other you advocate arbitrary quotas on how many positions/jobs Iranian people should be allowed to hold based on their personal and religious beliefs, which surely can not foster much in the way of the spirit of unity among Iranians.

As stated before I am a Bahai, but I'm also an Iranian with a strong sense of national identity and love for Iran and the people there. I look forward to the day that all Iranians can come together and work to make Iran a beacon of tolerance, freedom, progress, prosperity and success for all its people, regardless of religion, gender, background.

I trust you want the same for Iran, so why this focus on majority should be allowed this and minority should not be allowed that, instead of what is right and best for ALL Iranians and what is not?

First things first

Immortal Guard, let's first see to it that Bahais have full rights as citizens and then worry about possible abuse of power.

Any group or individual can potentially abuse their rights. But our top priority right now is to accept Bahais as fellow human beings with equal rights.

I'm glad you at least agree to this basic principle.

Marhoum KhArmagas - the Bahaa'i sandwitch foroush

"BTW, my comment  "the Baha'i sandwich foroush"  that you or someone else flagged, was in defense of Bahais rights .... and it actually happened to someone I met. This Baha'i fellow started a sandwich place after losing his government job, ...., he was then chased away because of his beliefs. You and the censorchis of this place have no clue!".

I find flagging of this comment outrageous.  Don't the monitors read what's been flagged?!  

Please tell us the story again and send a separate copy to JJ. 

I DISSENT, ROAST ME...

Mr. Masumian (I am sorry for misstaking you for a woman).

As I said before I advocate full citizenship rights for all the Bahais. I am against witch trials and show trials and any form of harassment against the Bahais. All I am saying is that as members of a minority in Iran they should not be permitted to appropriate more power than the majority which means that they should never be allowed to hold too many key industry and government positions.

Even in the United States the captains of most big industries and the real power holders are white and Christian OR Ashkenazim Jews. The likes of Obama are nothing more than figureheads.

Conspiracy theories for most liberal-minded Iranians exist only in textbooks. The word conspiracy is just an abstract creation of human mind which exists in dictionaries.

I guess the links you are providing and the links to links they provide etc. prove your point with "scientific accuracy". Soon Iranian.com should grant the right to post comments only to those who have a Ph.D. in a related field and can write outlandish mumbo jumbo.

As a traditional and conservative monarchist (not a perverted Pahlavi monarchist) I would say that as a sign of good gesture the Bahais should move their Bahai shrine in Haifa Israel to somewhere else in the world like the United States or Australia etc.

Again the Iranian liberals and leftists are more Catholic than the pope when it comes to defending the rights of the Bahais or should I say more Bahai than the Bahais.

But hey let's create more cults and fake religions and keep fragmenting the Iranian society so that enemies of Iran can more easily divide and conquer us. Pay good attention: It is exactly this kind of fragmentation that prevents us from realizing a more egalitarian society. I don't preach uniformity but unity and consider unity in diversity nothing more than a cliche.

For a change read something different. Liberalism (i.e. liberal hypocrisy) and laissez-faire will be manifesting its ugly nature more and more in the coming century.

Guilty: Liberal "Victims" and Their Assault on America

//www.amazon.com/Guilty-Liberal-Victims-Assault-America/dp/0307353478/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263534995&sr=1-1

Dear Divaneh

The issue of human rights violation is not black and white.  For example, hile its true that Iranian women's rights as a whole have been violated in the past 30 years, Iranian women have had it much worse. Just 1 fact is that in the past 30 years not 1 Iranian Bahai woman has graduated from a major (or minor for that matter) university in Iran.  Not 1 has been employed by a government agency.

For the Bahais, it has not been the last 30 years only either.  Its been going on for 150-160 years.

So, although its true that we have to care and worry about ALL Iranian's human rights, lets show some decency by acknowledging that Bahais have been the recipients of the short end of the stick for far too long and try to indulge them for the duration this blog will be part of most discussed.

Step by step, we will acknowledge the problems and resolve them one by one.  I am certain that some will attack my statement as kisseh keshi to put it politely, but what JJ and i.com has done here has never been done before.  Lets not detract from its nobel intent by making this a cyber jib jab.

Dear Divaneh

I have not read all of your entries, but do agree that we need to care for the human rights of all people suffering in Iran, and for that matter people oppressed throughout the world.

Given the grave situation, right now, the Baha'is need the support and courage of the rest of the Iranian community. It is very touching that recently so many people have stepped forward to lend their support, often at risk to themselves. Thank you.

With the long history of misinformation and prejudice that Baha'is have experienced in Iran, there is the desire to share with the rest of Iranians what it is that we believe. In our eagerness to correct the misinformation, we also need to be mindful of the manner and forum in which we do this.

This is a delicate balance.

Thanks to all all those that have stood-up and raised their voices to support the human rights movement in Iran. 

Iran has a noble future in front of her, let us all find our way of assisting to build a country based on justice, tolerance for diverse beliefs/philosophies, wisdom, and integrity. 

Dear Anvar

Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said anyone of any orientation should not contribute to this blog. I just objected to the misuse of this blog which I repeat is not only about Baha'is but in fact about the human rights and freedom to believe in anything that may please you without the fear of harassment. We all work together to make sure there will never be another prisoner of conscience in the future Iran, but no group should hijack the process for its own ends, even the victims. I do understand that many years of suppression in Iran and inability to address the public through mass media may be the cause of this eagerness to seize any opportunity, but I urge you to exercise some constraints.

You can clearly see that I am not the only oppressor here and in fact other people have objected to this too. I also suggested that you publish a separate blog for any interested party who wishes to learn more about your faith.

My comments in the blog "Mehdi Daneshmand" were in response to a claim by another user who stated  that the old Iran was not ready to learn about equality of sexes. The Avesta sightings were evidence of elevated women position in those days and in no way form any part of my beliefs. You either did not read my comments fully or are misrepresenting it.

For the rest of your comments, I ask you to re-read them and ask yourself if there is any fairness in them. As an example I never claimed that any comments have harmed me.

Dear *divaneh*

I usually enjoy your sense of humor and your posts, even when I may not totally agree with their contents.  

I regret that my using the phrase ‘enlightened friends” has caused you to have such a conniption fit!  I did not state that I was enlightened (and somehow you were not).  It was not a reference to me.  It was a compliment to all non-Baha’is on this blog (including you) who had expressed their support for the Iranian Baha’is.  I don’t understand why you chose to spin it out of context.  I hope it was just an honest mistake.

*JJ* has written many blogs and comments in support of all sorts of human rights issues.  Some have been generic and some for specific causes.  This particular blog is not a nebulous commentary about human rights.  It is specifically about the plight of Iranian Baha’is.

How is it that you, as a God-knows-what, may comment here, but *hooshie* and I, as Baha’is, may not!?  

How is it that in a blog titled “Mehdi Daneshmand” you preach by quoting verse after verse from Yasneh and Khorde Avesta (in which you obviously strongly believe), but in a blog titled “I am a Baha’i too” I, as an authentic Baha’i may not share the principles for which the subjects of the blogs are being persecuted?   

How is it that when you say “I do not believe in God or any similar fairy tales…” is acceptable to me, but my writings about believing in God not acceptable to you?

Whose comments do you think were less relevant to the topic and context of this blog?  Mine or yours?

I got news for you.  The times when a few people could repress other people’s universally acceptable principles are past.  I do respect you, but not your wish of not wanting me to make Baha’i related comments in a Baha’i related blog.  Your baseless objection is not sufficient reason.  

You wrote “People have the right to believe in whatever they wish as long as their beliefs do not harm others.”  If you can demonstrate how my writings have “harmed” you, then I shall gladly extent my previously issued apology to you as well.

Anvar

I am an Iranian, too.

JJ, I saw a link to your blog entry on Twitter this morning.  The situation of the Baha'is in Iran is of great concern to me.  And although I have never been in Iran, I have many dear Iranian friends, my brothers and sisters Baha'i, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, and atheist.  I have read your blog entry and many of the comments with fascination.  I didn't want to just lurk, so I registered myself on your site.  And I would like to say, I am an Iranian, too.  May Iran, its culture and its people develop and flourish in a peaceful glory commensurate to its great historic station.

Thank you

Thank you, JJ, for your posting. Moreover, I want to thank you for Iranian.com. It has been a forum for us all to learn the differing viewpoints that exist within our community.

We all have our prejudices that we need to contend with, regardless of our belief system. None of us are exempt. Tackling our prejudices is part of the process of life. Additionally, showing care and compassion for the plight of others is not an easy task.

Daily, I contend with addressing this and the rest of my short-comings.

Iranian.com has provided me a place to learn about the experiences of others. People and circumstances I would not have, otherwise, been familiar with. Thank you. We have become each other's champion. 

I am grateful for the attention focused on the suffering of the Iranian Baha'i community, right now. We need the strength and support of all Iranians to get us, collectively, through this difficult time.

I am a Bahai too

Me too I am a Bahai too....