Jahanshah Javid

Thank you JJ for your unbiased views

It’s so encouraging to view the level of heightened consciousness in most of the posts.

As a Baha'i many aspects of the Baha'i faith attracts & intrigues me.
I’d like to share one quote from Baha'i writings that says:

"Religion must be the source of fellowship, the cause of unity and the nearness of God to man. If it rouses hatred and strife, it is evident that absence of religion is preferable and an irreligious man better than one who professes it. According to the divine Will and intention religion should be the cause of love and agreement, a bond to unify all mankind, for it is a message of peace and goodwill to man from God."

Its hard for me not to be in love with the Baha'i faith as it makes perfect sense! Its about individual's 'free will' and choice to believe and practice one's love for God.
For your own investigation go to //info.bahai.org/

all I asked for was a bit of "light"

geez. terribly sorry for you, Mr. "Nur"

all I asked for was a bit of "Light"

you said you had the goods, that you can provide it . . .

I hope you find inner peace soon, because everything you post

points to the opposite.

Salam azizam

I took some time off as you know from previous discussions we had,  I was getting very stressed about Iran. Am glad to be back though.  Look forward to your blogs and more discussions. Best wishes.

Hi Shepesh jan!

Jeeez I haven't seen in you in forever! Good to see you :)

apologies JJ for being off topic. Got excited :)

Agha Know All

The headquarters for any religion can be anywhere in the world, that you are using IRI propoganda against these people (the location of the headquarters and  "mouthpieces for certain Western  and Israeli intelligence ") only shows who you are in bed with and how far you will go to satisfy your sad and shameful motives. There is no divine fragrance from your preachings and previous posts, which are filled with hatred and vengeance. You are filled with too much pride and I doubt you will find many who will worship you. But who knows. The world is full of fools.

Shepesh

You must have me confused with your founder, Husayn 'Ali Nari, whose ME ME ME spawned a cult on the blood of innocent people and has done nothing since its founding than to colloborate with fascists everywhere and to erect a Disneyland religious theme park on Mt Carmel in Zionistan from money derived from God-knows-where.

Here are the words of one of the world's greatest Egotists of all time.

"O phlebotomist of the Divine Unity! Throb like the artery in the body
of the Contingent World, and drink of the blood of the Block of  Heedlessness for that he turned aside from the aspect of thy Lord the  Merciful!" 

As for the Iranian people and who represents them: after the IRI falls certainly a cult whose foremost loyalty is expressedly not to a country or nationalism of any form (not to mention that its headquarters are in Israel) cannot preach to anyone about who represents whom in the future post-mullocratic Iran. I will be in Iran after the mullahs fall to ensure no one hands power to you fascists, as your CIA masters handed power to Khomeini and his thugs in '79. I am not interested in political power for myself, but merely to prevent you Theocrats from ever getting close to it yourselves. As such you nor the organization you represent speaks for any Iranian or the future of Iran. You might be mouthpieces for certain Western  and Israeli intelligence and corporate interests in Iran, but that is all you will ever speak for, not for Iran.

more bahai hatred

i am a bahai too here is hatred for you

Translation by Wahid Azal (Jan. 7, 2009)

QUOTE

Chapter 11

The Critics of the Cause of God (munkirin-i-amru'llah)

In
Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 322 the following is quoted by
'Abbas Effendi from a prayer by his father, cf. THE BAHA'I FAITH AND
ISLAM (ed.) Heshmat Moayyad (The Association for Baha'i Studies:
Ottawa, 1990), p.23

Quote

O God! Whomsoever violates My Covenant, O God, humiliate him. Verily whosoever violates My Covenant, erase and efface him.

Nur-i-Azal

I've taken time to go over the links you'd provided. And I do understand your grievances.  However, none of it is related to this blog.  

Personally, glad you don't speak Croatian. So, you can't refute my Baha'i posts on various Croatian forums.;))

really, why instigate hate, why?

nur, where is your light?

really, why instigate hate?

I iterate, what Sufi teaches such a thing as the vitriol

you write here?  can you show us some of that light

you claim for yourself? Otherwise, your "win" is more hollow

than a wind tunnel.

Just before I go for nap (it's been a long day)

As a certified religious freak, Stalinist cult member, Zionist stooge of Israel and IR collaborator/conspirator at the same time and a future threat to and oppressor of humanity; as all of those things, or, in a word, a "Bahai", I'd still like to say, even though the discussion has been somewhat diverted from its original course (an inevitable by-product of open discourse - which I support), it's great to see Iranians of whatever standpoint and disposition having a platform like the iranian.com that has a worldwide reach to express their opinions and exchange views openly, regardless of whether we agree with each other or not.

Once again JJ, many thanks for your words and kudos to you for keeping this website going. I hope you are successful in your funding efforts and one day we will all, regardless of our beliefs and backgrounds, be able to carry on our discussions, agreements/disagreements and shoot the breeze on the iranian.com run from an open and free Iran.

If he get it too, I hope

If he get it too, I hope he'll take the correct medication.

Agha Azal what do your children think when they search internet on your name? And see opinions of people Baha'i and not Baha'i about you? Are you proud? All blogs saying you are a prophet and manifest of God? Many people have tried with kindness and wise words with you to be not selfish and serve your own ego. With you it is Me Me Me Me. Just like Islamist ideologist who think they have worked everything out and they are correct. Taking away rights of others when they do not like a group of people.

"attacking hapless minorities smacks of the old, soon-to-be-ancient-history prejudicial ignorance" - so if Mullahs go we Iranians do not want to give power to people like you. Dream on.

I am a Bahai too (though a Muslim)

I always win because I am working for the Truth, not for myself

Maybe one day you'll get it too, God(head)ess willing!

I give up. You win.

Good luck with your political ambitions. And enjoy the notoriety.

AsteroidX

Again you say I am a Bahai,

Because you are. If you weren't you wouldn't be using Baha'i terminology and jargon such as "manifestation of God."

I have many excellent Baha’i friends and I am proud of them and cherish their friendship.

Good for you. I have Baha'i family which makes my proximity of relationship to these people closer than your pretension to not being a Bahai and having Bahai friends -- but which we both know you are.

That is why I am supporting Human Rights for bahais,

But you aren't supporting human rights for Sufis, Ahl-i-Haqq, the Kurds, the Bayanis, and others. So what gives?

People with cultish minds cannot think for themselves and need attachment groups.

I belong to myself and, as I have stated many times before, I am an Anarchist and so answer to no human authority above my own. And cults operate based on the dynamics and examples I laid out below. On the other hand, your pretension to not being a Bahai is itself a species of cultism.

 It is not I who is confused, and your accusations of Internet Agency etc is a sad display of insecurity

Really? Look what kind of evidence my insecurity can prove.

//www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Baha%E2%80%99i_Internet_Agency

The insecurity is obviously all yours proving, once again, that your emperor has no clothes.

But why instigate hate?

Instigate hate? If insisting on historical as well as contemporary accountability and justice is instigating hate, then I am proudly a hate monger and I am happy to go to my grave as one. You betcha! But then again, technically speaking every person on this whole website and anywhere else who has ever demanded accountability, justice and transparency where the present Iranian regime is concerned is likewise a hate monger. As such I am in good company.

Again, Haifan Bahaism is a dangerous Stalinist cult with Theocratic pretensions like the Khomeinists of Iran and as such it is a threat to the common weal of all humanity. So long as I draw breath I will denounce this organization and creed everywhere high and low for what it is. And when the mullahs fall, I will be campaigning against this organization in Iran itself. If you have a problem with that, that is your own problem. Deal with it!

Nuri

Again you say I am a Bahai, despite my having telling you that I am not. But that's OK. I have many excellent Baha’i friends and I am proud of them and cherish their friendship. I judge people for what they do and not for what they believe. That is why I am supporting Human Rights for bahais, as well as people of your cult and oppressed Iranians in Iran. I do not understand why you think it "irritates" anyone that you think you are a Manifestation of God. Good for you, if that makes you happy. The reason I brought it up is that you insist that you do not belong to a cult, but in fact you do and have a cultish mind. People with cultish minds cannot think for themselves and need attachment groups. It is not I who is confused, and your accusations of Internet Agency etc is a sad display of insecurity. People who have a discussion with you are always faced with such accusations which makes a debate a dead end. Do you debate to win or do you debate to unravel the truth?

You may have disagreements with the Baha’i Faith at an intellectual level. But why instigate hate? These people have suffered enough and your online activities, motivated by your anger, do nothing but cause more hate. I disagree with your method and your motivations.   What they did to you in printing your name in a paper is improper behaviour and I can see why you are angry, but you need to calm down a bit. It has had a effect on you and I hope the Bahai governing body will learn from that. If you needed some time out they should have given you some time out. It was cruel to make you resign (if that is what happened). But you also need to listen to others and stop attacking those that are trying to get to the bottom of things. You may have a lot of people kissing your behind because you "wrote a book" but I wonder how many would risk telling you some home truths for your own sake, the sign of true friendship.

Kharmagas

Yes, and the reason is because ideology as ideology is a false consciousness. 2,400 years ago Plato laid this out when he made the distinction between the three forms of knowledge: 1. doxa (opinion), 2. episteme (ratiocinative knowledge) and 3. noesis (intuitive knowledge borne of visionary realization where there is no distinction between subject and object). Religion, that is exoteric religion and cults as a whole, never get past 1 because they have confused conjecture with fact by demanding blind faith without ever being able to realize the contents of faith. This is the greatest trap of all. The scientific postivist and materialist conception of the world is a progress on 1 but it too is limited and cannot move to the next level. Esotericism/gnosis ('irfan) inhabits the space of number 3, and this is where Truth is realized and the illusion of false consciousness (whether socially conditioned or otherwise tautologically located, as much of modern scientific materialism is) is stripped bare and revealed to be hollow and transparent. In other words, exoteric religion is the single biggest veil to the Truth, followed next by the contemporary blind faith in scientific positivism. Both of these must be transcended.

I am bahai too

All the great Masters example that. But how would you know? 

Your notions of Sufism and Sufis is as limited and narrow as the creed you follow. Sufis follow and realize the Truth, i.e. al-Haqq. Al-Haqq is not some new agey fluff and love narrative. The Truth, to even the most adept, let alone to the deluded and misled, is often harsh. Remember where I once said here, "the Truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off"! Even your prophet Husayn 'Ali acknowledges this in one of his so-called hidden words where he instances the symbolism of the outward fire being the epiphany of the inward light. 

My opinion of Jahanshah is based on solid, physical experience and also part and parcel of the no holds barred qalandari/malami approach that pulls no punches with the hypocrisy of entrenched elites and their agendas. This was the Way of Shams of Tabriz as well as a legion of other Masters, who have no problems speaking Truth to corrupt power, since sycophancy and coddling up to the prominent and powerful has never been the Way of authentic Sufism. It was also not the Way of the Prophet Muhammad (sws) who for 23 years fought His own relatives and kin in their hypocrisy and corruption, and ultimately won by overthrowing them. Coddling up to the powerful and corrupt is the way of many contemporary Baha'is, but it is not the Way of the real men of the Path (i.e. the rijal).

What is that refrain in Husayn 'Ali's Tablet of Ahmad, again, "be thou as a flame of fire to my enemies and a river of life eternal to my loved ones"? You people don't even understand or get, let alone internalize, the basic symbolism of your own writings, and then you preach to me? LOL

Va'ezan kin jelveh dar mihrab o manbar mikonand

Chon be khalvat miravand an kar-i-digar mikonand...

Yup

Did you declare yourself a manifestation of God sometime back?

Yup, and I still do ;-) That irritates you Baha'is, doesn't it? Good.

Are you changing the definition of cult now, as to one having a governing body?

Cult and cults in the contemporary social science definition has a specific meaning and precise denotation. Scientology is a cult. Aum Shinrikiyo is a cult. David Koresh's Branch Davidians was a cult. Jim Jones was a cult. Heavens Gate was a cult. Jehovah's Witness is a cult. And Bahaism is a cult. All of these outfits behave in a certain and specific way. Even their structures are quite similar.

I have nothing against what you believe, but what I do not feel comfortable with is that you are preaching what is right and wrong.  Isn't that what a Big Brother does?

You've confused several things here. But your Universal House of Justice is guilty of that more than anyone here, to the point that they even encourage spying on people as a matter of organizational policy. To wit,

//bahai-library.com/published.uhj/counsellors.html
THE INSTITUTION OF THE COUNSELLORS
A Document Prepared by the Universal House of Justice
January 29 2001

Quote

Protection of the Cause (pp. 15-16)

thanks Nor-i-Azal

Thanks for taking time and explaining your views. ....oppressed turned oppressor, very familiar story that applies to many other ideologies and religions too.

What Sufi teaches THAT?

Nur,

hiya! if your Sufi Shaykh “enlightened” you, why do you persist with the shame-and-blame game? Mention of “Baha’i” causes you to appear here and log an unbelievable amount of nauseous hearsay and fake anecdotal stories.  Anyone who cares about Iranian human rights knows the way of attacking hapless minorities smacks of the old, soon-to-be-ancient-history prejudicial ignorance.

your idee fixe is so weary-sounding, your posts, utterly predictable. Your insults to Jahanshah (who lets you kindly have your haranguing say), causes you to shame the blameless and blame the shameless. What Sufi teaches that?

BTW, an old wise man once said it well: “What you see in the other dwells within (you).” BTW, when is the last time you posted something Sufi-like, something joyful?

Nuri

by Zulfiqar110 on Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:24 AM PDT

Faramarz jun,

You people still haven't figured out where I stand in regard to the bigger questions, so let me break it down for you one more time and more easily. ...... In fact because I found all existing exoteric religions to be total crap (especially, and above all, the Baha'i faith) I created my own esoteric religion, which I call the NUR. I became my own Prophet, Revealed my own Book, my own sacred calendar and spiritual commandments:

//19commandments.blogspot.com/

Do you understand now? 

----------------------------------------------------------------

Did you declare yourself a manifestation of God sometime back?

You say "this Sufi master not only helped me get over the polarity of this victim/oppressor dichotomy" - it may not be a religious priest that you were looking up to, but it sounds just like the language of Religion. What about the initiatic guilds or whatever. Are you changing the definition of cult now, as to one having a governing body? An attachment group may be a religion or another group, a way of living. 

I have nothing against what you believe, but what I do not feel comfortable with is that you are preaching what is right and wrong.  Isn't that what a Big Brother does? Have you not made yourself into one? You must allow people to chose democratically their religion, government, etc. I hope that you will not attack me after this.

PS: It was nuns, but it never bothered me as things seem to bother you. They didn't get in my head.

AsteroidX

The Haifan Baha'is generally, and the Haifan Baha'is here particularly, have no interest in answering the case against them -- and neither does our Supreme Editor who has censored all attempts at a serious discussion to this end in the past.

However any time, any place the Haifan Baha'is wish to have a no holds barred discussion where facts and evidence are submitted and analyzed, I am ready to go, whether this venue be a court of law or otherwise.

Pray tell, what cult do I belong to? Since there is no organization to the Bayani faith -- but just a loose association of friends and families -- and since Sufi orders function on the principle of initiatic guilds, where outside of this specific structure, individuals are free to do and say whatever they wish without some Big Brother watching over them (as is the case with Bahaism), your argument that I belong to a cult falls flat on its face. My sympathies to you, however, for the maltreatment you suffered at the hands of Catholic priests. Catholicism and the Catholic Church in general is one of the most insidious and enduring abusive organizational cults in all history, and Paulianist Christianity as a whole one of the biggest historical demons of all!

Khomeini's friendship with Ishraq-Khavari, and Mr Shahgholi

It is a well known and documented fact that Abdu'l-Hamid Ishraq-Khavari, a prominent Baha'i figure of the 1940s to early 1970s and longstanding member of the Iranian NSA, was a personal friend of the Ayatollah Khomeini's. The two of them apparently had been seminary students together.

Shahgholi, the attorney who represented Khomeini at his trial in the mid 1960s, was also a Bahai. He was the person responsible in pleading Khomeini into an exile out of Iran rather than the prison sentence he deserved.

Hooshie

If you have concrete evidence that any member of the Bayani community has been colluding (or "conspiring") with the IRI, by all means be my guest and name them. I will personally see to it that they fry. I, however, can name you countless Haifan Baha'is who have directly colluded and conspired with the IRI in various capacities, and since February 1979.  A few of these names I have disclosed on TRB on USENET over the years. Others I have not.

In any case, the days of this regime are numbered, and hopefully they will go on 22nd of Bahman just as they came in on a 22 of Bahman, and in due course we will all learn who the true agents of the IRI have been during all these years -- that is, if your bosses don't get to those VEVAK/SAVAMA files before we do because there is a distinct possibility that your bosses will try everything in their power to attempt to cover up their own crimes under the Islamic republic. But be on notice that there are people on the ready in Iran right nw bracing to expose all the various IRI agents, including those who have been tied to the Haifan Bahai organization that you are associated with, like a certain family who until recently was resident in one of the Gulf countries.  

Kharmagas

There are some archetypal psychologists, like James Hillman, who make a valid observation that victims eventually become oppressors and oppressors victims. From my metaphysical point of view, both of these are cycles that the human being (individually as well as collectively) needs to escape. It is, if you would, the illusion of social life that feeds and perpetuates everything that is fundamentally wrong with human society at this point of history.

Baha'is, I believe, have learned nothing of significance about their condition in Iran and their treatment at the hands of the fundamentalist Shi'ite establishment. Part of this blindness has to do with the fact that they themselves began within the paradigm of oppressing the Bayanis. The Bayanis, fortunately, have escaped the trap of victimhood as a psychological condition, but they are out to set the historical record straight.

Now I'll let you in on a personal narrative from Iran before the revolution: When I was 4 years old my pious Muslim fundamentalist kindergarten teacher found out I came from a Bahai family and locked me in the dark school cellar for an entire day. While she was manhandling a 4 year old kid into the school cellar, she continually referred to me as "sag bahai!" She found out because I was singing a Baha'i tune in class. Now that woman was crazy, but so was the individual who was brainwashing a 4 year old kid with Baha'i propaganda knowing full well that a child would be repeating what it was taught in a hostile majoritarian Muslim environment. This is the fundamental problem with the kind of culturally polarized society Iran has thus far been and the unwisdom exercised by all parties especially towards the children of the society. But note this: the individual who helped me work through this childhood trauma in my early 20s wasn't a psychologist or even a Bahai. It was a Sufi shaykh. And this Sufi master not only helped me get over the polarity of this victim/oppressor dichotomy, he allowed me to see the illusion of both these conditions as well as their equality. As such, from my point of view, in the bigger picture both the fundamentalist Muslim kindergarten teacher and the Bahai brainwasher of a 4 year old child are both simultaneously guilty as well as innocent.

They are guilty of not rising above their respective sectarian ignorance that breeds ignorance in their minds and souls like a demon. But they are both innocent insofar as both are, as it were, victims of this very same demon of sectarian ignorance. It is a vicious circle.

If we are to rise above this condition on a cultural level, it is incumbent for these false narratives to be seen for what they are and that both sides of the narrative are the flip side of the same coin. 

Now one of the reasons I rail against the Haifan Bahais is because I can see the day coming (and very soon) when the shoe will be on the other foot and these former so-called victims, having not learned a thing from their former condition, will turn around and do far worse than what their former oppressors once did to them. I know this because I have been there myself with these present feigners of perpetual victimhood, i.e. the Haifan Bahais. Just look at what the Jews, once the most persecuted people on this planet, have become once power and a state fell into their hands.

These cycles and narratives are not just stories or abstractions, they are very real and they play themselves out in the real world. So I do what I do, whatever people currently make of what I do, because as far as I am concerned it is a service to humanity and a duty to inform people regarding the Haifan Bahais whatever the personal consequences to myself, because, as a Latin American Liberation Theologian once put it, The victim will never be liberated until the oppressor is likewise liberated.

I close with a poem from my late Sufi shaykh:

dar keshvar-i-faqr joz fana' chizi nist

dar sowme'e joz zohd o riya chizi nist

az bahr-i-sa'adat-i-bashar dar in a'lam

joz khedmat-i-makhluq-i-khoda chizi nist

In the regions of spiritual poverty there is naught but annihilation

In the cloister there is naught but asceticism and hypocrisy

Of the abiding felicity of humanity in this world

There is naught but service to God's creatures.

من بهائی نیستم، ولی‌ بهائی‌ها را دوست دارم

امام خمینی؟

Dear NOT_AK69

My intention in no way was to question your right to exercise freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom of expression, in fact I totally support your right on these principles, as I would anyone's. Nor am I suggesting that you should "lie" or even sugarcoat your views. I absolutely support the right of people to question and, if necessary, criticise any religion, political philosophy and ideology, after all, how else can anyone investigate the validity of such matters?

My point was that this particular discussion wasn't intended (as far as I understand) to be so much about the validity of religions in general (which IS a very important subject, worthy of much debate, but perhaps elsewhere), but rather that there are people in Iran who are being viciously persecuted for their beliefs and, whether we agree with their views/beliefs or not, we should defend their rights against this persecution, that is if we truly do believe in those important principles you outlined, i.e. "freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom of expression.

On the other hand you did state:  "...after all their sacred bloodshed, they get a little taste of their own medicine (“an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot” Exodus 21:24) and the self righteous impious bastards have the utter gall to cry foul....".  I don't know if by that statement you meant Bahais or anyone else that suffers persecution because of their religious beliefs are "self righteous impious bastards that have the utter gall to cry foul" and therefore deserve what is done to them. If so, then I'm guessing that you might not particularly care for these people's right to "freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom of expression", despite what you said earlier. However, if I misunderstood what you meant, then please accept my apology in advance.

One Answer: Oh Wear Oh Wear Is My Beloved So-Crates Today?

Dear Bottled-Banana,

Discussions about religions sadly often tend to degenerate into naked hostility, anger and name calling, with both sides, more often than not, sharing the responsibility.  – Yes; you are correct. But, as the comment string below illustrates, even without naked hostility or anger, anytime one argues or makes mention of the sacred cow “Religion” or ”God”, the self-proclaimed pious resort to those exact tactics. Well, if that is how they want to play the game… by all means, we unself-proclaimed impious “bigots” can surely oblige. 

But I, as a religious freak (though I've never considered myself a fundamentalist or shed anyone's blood - honest) would like to ask one question from all who may care to answer and I hope no one is offended in the process.  – My apologies if the over used English idiom brought you offense. I often use profanity and colorful colloquialisms to weed out the herd (of ignorant folks that can’t see past the semantics to the point of the comment). So thank you for your sight and polite discourse. 

Here goes: regardless of whether we believe that all religions are bogus or not, do we support the principle that every human being should have the right to believe in whatever they may wish, as long as they do not seek to impose their belief on others and respect the right of others to their beliefs and do not interfere with them? – Of course every human being should have that right and every collective human right (equality for all under Law). Unfortunately, we live on planet Earth; with history to this day of the “99% - per JJ” of the world’s religious folks trying to impose their beliefs on others and not respecting another’s right NOT to believe. Every one of their Canon states “imposing” as part and parcel of their Dogma. 

And if so (a second question), isn't this particular discussion supposed to be about a humanitarian point of principle namely the right of Bahais to their belief - like everyone else - rather than a theological discourse as to whether all religions are bogus and those who believe in them are irrefutable nutjobs and freaks and get what they deserve, which surely is a separate issue (which can be discussed elsewhere) and rather takes away from the original point of JJ's piece? – NO; I exercised my human rights of freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom of expression. I read the blog and freely expressed my thoughts in the original comment made; did you want me to lie or maybe make the comment politically correct in tone and tenor? Than that would be a falsehood and misinterpretation of the truth. Besides, the commenter’s also have the right not to engage me in dialogue or discourse; do they not?

IMHO
AK69

P.S. To JJ JOOOON, ;-) my answer to you in the grander sense is an Apology: "Wealth does not bring about excellence, but excellence makes wealth and everything else good for men, both individually and collectively" (Apology, 33).

One question

Discussions about religions sadly often tend to degenerate into naked hostility, anger and name calling, with both sides, more often than not, sharing the responsibility.

But I, as a religious freak (though I've never considered myself a fundamentalist or shed anyone's blood - honest) would like to ask one question from all who may care to answer and I hope no one is offended in the process.

Here goes: regardless of whether we believe that all religions are bogus or not, do we support the principle that every human being should have the right to believe in whatever they may wish, as long as they do not seek to impose their belief on others and respect the right of others to their beliefs and do not interfere with them?

And if so (a second question), isn't this particular discussion supposed to be about a humanitarian point of principle namely the right of Bahais to their belief - like everyone else - rather than a theological discourse as to whether all religions are bogus and those who believe in them are irrefutable nutjobs and freaks and get what they deserve, which surely is a separate issue (which can be discussed elsewhere) and rather takes away from the original point of JJ's piece?