Jahanshah Javid

cap'n

it's my personal opinion... MY opinion, mind you... that annulment is the height of hypocracy.  now... let me expound a little more on that.  annulment in itself is a wonderful thing.  for those who marry and wish to annul the marriage based on the legal criteria, it's a good thing.  but.  what i find totally reprehensible is the use of annulment by those who wish to just circumvent the Church.  case in point... those who are married for years and years and have kids and suddenly want an annulment so they can get married again.  which kenndy was it?  can't remember.  i have little respect for those who abuse the intention.  there are a lot of variables.  whether you got married in the Church or not... whether one or another is catholic and the other not...blah blah blah.  my brother was married for 8 years... she had converted so that they could marry in a full Mass.  they divorced and he remarried several years later to a non-catholic.  they are raising their children catholic.  technically my brother's marriage is not recognized and he is not supposed to receive communion.  when he went to make nice nice and get reinstated (so to speak) he was told he would have to annul his first marriage.  he basically told them to kiss off.  what a huge insult to his first wife... a wonderful girl and to himself.  it's a very very fine line.  so much of the faith that i agree with yet so many dictations of the Church that i do not. 

Writing those alimony checks is a drag :)

There are many second wives writing out monthly spousal support checks and it must burn.  Why can't they just have the polished middle aged man all to themselves and have the first wife sod off somewhere? eh?

When you work for a company for a long time and you get laid off for no reason other than the fact that the company no longer requires your services you receive a severence package. They also place your 401K contributions in an account for it to mature. They continue your health benefits under COBRA until you find other employment.  Essentially a long term employee gets something for his/her service before he is shown the door.  If there is wrongful dismissal - well - with a good lawyer the employee could collect quite a bit extra. :)

A smart first wife - wrongfully dismissed, can get herself a decent lawyer and sue for compensation in lieu of 25, 30, 35 years of service rendered: cooking, cleaning, housekeeping, childbirth, child rearing, entertaining, travelling, being on call 24/7 and of course intercourse. Call it prostitution - call it fair exchange  - but call it you must.   

Nobody says the man (or as is becoming somewhat common these days) the woman cannot leave a loveless marriage.  There is a price. He/She pays it and he/she can go and find him/herself a young one, a smart one, a pretty one, a fit one,  a one with a job that pays 6, 8, 10 figures.  they can laugh and smirk at the first spouse all they want, but pay they will. :)

The flip side to that is of course certain freedoms are priceless and I bet there are plenty of men and women out there who are only too happy to be writing those monthly checks. :)

Please, let's be clear about the function of marriage, which is specific to procreation, division of labor and acquisition of property - preferably with someone you once did and hopefully still do fancy. It has nothing to do with love for love needs no contract nor conditions, rules or roles.  But it has everything to do with  character, substance and ooh that dreaded word - commitment.

 The above is somewhat unrelated to this blog - but in a way it is the crux of the matter in regards to marriages with a pre-determined shelf-life.  Humans age and the fruit of their labor needs to be stored in some form for the time they can no longer produce. Now - you take a grazer who hops from one two-year marriage to the next for a couple of decades - what do you ahve?  No nest egg - financially, emotionally, psychologically or socially. Just a hell of a lot of good stories to tell at parties - the invitations to which become rarer and rarer as he/she ages. :)

Q

We should go back to our roots and practice what our ancestors (that is what the Mazdakis) did! I'm all for it.

Some historical perspective...

JJ, don't feel so out of place. We Iranians practically invented "free love."

Although the idea is attributed to the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations, I don't buy this. There was always a power dyanmic twist to the way they practiced it. Roman Senators and rich men could participate in orgies and have sex with slaves, breaking vows of their own marriages, just like Kings and nobels everywhere. But it was in Iran that this notion was first introduced to the masses for commoners' social relations.

During the late Sassanid period, the Mazdaki revolt caught fire. (Incidnetly this was a major contributing reason to fall of the Sassanids and the weakening Zoroastrian establishment in Iran, which is always ignored by certain hothead Islamophobes). Among many of their communist-style beliefs were pacifism, vegetarianism, loss of private property un-sanctity of love relations. A man should "share" his wife with another out of generocity. And a woman should not be obligated to have sex with just one man.

At first the Sassanids tried to brutally put down the revolt, but after a while, the mazdakis were growing more and more populous. Then they gave in and for a time tried to adopt their ideas. The Shahanshah even allowed Mazdak to sleep with the queen.

It didn't last but it was one of the most interesting experiments in history.

Everyday

Come to think of it, you are absolutely right about both of your comments.

I can relate to the second one. I have vowed not to get married again in fear of getting stuck with the wrong guy who would want me not for the love and companionship but for a dual income household.

t

If she made herself interesting he would no longer stay with her. Regardless of what you all say very few men can handle intelligent women. They might say they like interesting and intelligent women, but the majority feel threatened and intimidated by intelligence in women. Men always deserve the wives they choose.

Ali p and Kaveh
Hold your horses please. What you are saying might be true of the older housewife generation, but believe you me there are plenty of young intelligent independent women today who are just as hesitant to commit to a long term marriages for fear of getting stuck with the wrong one.

No Joking Matter

Fish, what you and Kaveh joke about is no joking matter. I guess we laugh at it because it's reality that is shared openly in such forum. What you say jokingly so many naive women firmly believe. Then they get run over by a bus and they can't understand why. I think its our job to help them out and show them the path.

Let me give you an example, I know this Iranian couple. The guy made it real big in the late 1990s because of his stock. The wife is the typical wife who stayed home and is botox and designer clothes happy. She is the envy of all women, except for me. I work with the husband and I know for a fact that not only the guy cheats on her, she is the one who packs him his condoms when he goes on business trips. He only keeps her because otherwise he has to part with 1/2 his money. She stays with him because of not only the standard of living but the fact that he is her selfworth. If she were to divorce him, none of the supposed friends will invite her to the "doorehs" because they want to associate with him and the new woman. Maybe a good business transaction but awful relationship.

If I could, I would tell this woman, the botox will not work. You have all the time and money you need so why not go back to school. Why not seriously ger involved in a non-profit and work everyday. Make yourself interesting (that is mentally). Naturally with time our bodies will age and sag. So keep the attraction through other means.

People may think these women are the winners in life but they aren't.

Fishie

Can you please enlighten me about the [Annulment]?

Does it have any time limit?

-YT

Orang G.

Thanks for catching that , however, I did say:[ With one or two exceptions, every religion and culture allows divorce.] I just did not want to be specific about it and name names.

you said[Why people need a contract for being in love ?! Love is a business?!]

Actually in my dumb way that is what I am saying, I ONLY defined marriage as contract[which is one], and not the love.  I said [Marriage is a [business contract], only obligation it produces is when partners commit themselves.]

For a man who has been married for close to 3 decades, I firmly believe that commitment of partners is the key to success of marriage, and not the piece of paper on which a [business contract of marriage] is written.

Sorry for being so inarticulate. ;-)

-YT

relax "t"

i was just joking!  i was just being facetious.  jeez... don't beat me up.  :-)

there isn't anyone more in agreement with what you're saying in principle.  i've worked every day of my adult life and could take care of and HAVE taken care of myself in a skinny minute.  i rely on my husband for companionship and love, NOT for financial stability. 

however, there are women who do stay home.  my mother was one and my sister-in-law another.  well, forget my mom... EVERY mom stayed at home back in the day.  but my brother's wife doesn't work outside the home.  do i work harder than she does?  not necessarily.  with 3 active boys and a larger home, she doesn't sit on her butt and watch soaps all day.  i dare say she's more active than i am.  to my mind, this makes her more dependant on my brother. 

anyhoo... bottom line is that i was just jokin' around. 

Devoted 'service" - At last someone confessed

Fish thanks for your honesty. The problem is most Iranian women regard themselves as service providers (ie keep the house clean and the bed warm for him taking care of you). These women are no different than prostitutes. So why should they be respected more and treated any differently.

.

.

orang

technically you are right.  but we've got a little thing called annulment to get around a divorce.. :-)  when oh when will the Church learn.  divorce is not allowed because marriage is considered a sacrement.  and i've always preferred the word over contract.  mayhaps it's the same... but sacrement just sounds better.  :-)

My suspicions are confirmed

Women invented automobile leasing.

nope

those which you consider expenses have provided you extra pleasure and enjoyment during the course of your lease.  not unlike gas, those extras have insured that your lease subject is running at maximum efficiency to give you maximum enjoyment.  and those accessories benefit you as well as the lease subject in that your "image" is maintained, no insignificant matter for men.  no extra consideration should be due at end of lease.  they are, as you say, merely maintenance.  now.  if you have a lease/option to buy, that might be different. 

Devoted 'service" - At last someone confessed

Fish, thanks for your honesty. Most if not all Iranian women regard themselves as a service provider. I'll keep the house clean and the bed warm (service) and you pay for such services.

If that is the case then you are no different than a prostitute, and ultimately that is why men want to lease if possible. Men may keep these women because it is to expensive to get rid of them but they have no respect for nor attraction to these women.

I don't understand the rationale behind your statement: "we give the best years of our life to a man and i think we should be compensated for wear and tear. and if you wanna break the marriage commitment for some new young thang, then absolutely you're going to have to pay a penalty."

For your best years, you've already been compensated by the fact that he went out and made a living and you stayed home. So, what is the problem there. Just like any job you get paid so long as you do your job right. Won't you get rid of your current house cleaner if you find a better cheaper one elsewhere? When you look at yourself as a service provider, then the same analysis applies.

As to your statement re "go for some new young thang", my observation has been that the better men generally abandon these type of women for a more quality woman, not all too much younger than themselves so to enjoy a sassy, witty, charming woman who is not only good in bed but independent and well rounded.

Why would a woman even in her 40s think there is no life for her if the guy leaves her and so he should pay a penalty. The only reason is because she sees no worth in herself. Well, maybe that is the reason he leaves in the first place. So, my suggestion is instead of sitting home or shopping all day long, women do themselves a service and go out and work and feel the self worth and show it to your man. He'll love and respect you more and will not regard you as a burden. Remeber he doesn;t want another child to take care of, he was a companion.

capt_ayhab

You are right about Geraman made effect :-)

but you made a mistake, Catholic are not allowd to divorce. Of course many of them do it as many muslims drink alchool. It is forbiden because the couple swear each other fidelity for ever in front of God. their God doesn't accept somebody change his mind !

Why people need a contract for being in love ?! Love is a business?!

After 68 many people choose free relationship and now even Gays want be married ! Amazing doesn't it ?

?

I thought everyone here was against [SIGHEH], But I suppose since the idea is German Made it must be a marvel of engineering , like their Benz and BMW?

Marriage is a [business contract], only obligation it produces is when partners commit themselves. With one or two exceptions, every religion and culture allows divorce. Only ones that are hurt by divorce are partners and children[if any]

nice thread though

-YT

Fish

What about the wear and tear on the guy?

Consideration has to be given for all of the time and expense of constant waxing, polishing, tune-ups, routine maintenance, accessories, and so on.

:-)

MiNeum71

True fact or not, you have to admit, it's a very interesting and thought-provoking topic.

Wow, great knowledge

Is this serious journalism, reading somewhere something and consider it true fact? Typically Iranian Chert-o-pert Goftan.

You can be sure, there is NO place in Germany where a marriage expires after a certain time. Besides, Gabriele Pauli´s proposal (she is a Ms. Nobody in Germany) concerned not Germany but the state Bavaria AND this was done only because of the elections in the following week, the last ray of hope for her. She was kicked out anyway.

Embarrissing comments ...

well hell yeah

i'll accept the lease options as purely protective measures.  we give the best years of our life to a man and i think we should be compensated for wear and tear.  and if you wanna break the marriage commitment for some new young thang, then absolutely you're going to have to pay a penalty.  it's like my 401K.  it's intended to sustain me during my retirement after a lifetime of devoted service.  we women need a little insurance against the... hmmm... male proclivities... :-0

JJ, we need new definitions

I think we need new definitions for a lot of the social arrangements in order to keep up with the changing social and psychological needs of human beings in the 21st century.

I think if the couple don't want any kids, they should not only NOT get married (even for 2 years), they should each stay in their respective housholds and date each other exclusively (monogamously).  They will keep their relationship more fresh and meaningful this way, their finances won't get tangled, and their relationship will be about love and mutual satisfaction in the time they spend together, be it six months or a lifetime.

I think the only time people should consider co-habitation would be if and when they want to have children.  New rules and definitions will have to be defined for that, as well, but that's not the subject of this discussion.

I believe to have a deadline on a marriage is a crazy idea, even crazier than the open-ended marriages (read traps) we have now!  Why would you want to subject yourself and your partner to the anxiety of an "expiration date"?  Think about it!  Yes, sometimes both peopole might want to end or continue the marriage together, but sometimes one of them might want to continue while the other wants to end it.  The one who wants to continue feels anxious and pressured, trying too hard to hold on to something which will have a spontaneous combustion at midnight on a certain date.  I doubt an anxious (read desperate) person will bring much joy or peace to the temporary union.

I think people should stay in their own spaces and come over for sleepovers!  Now, wouldn't that be perfect?!  No muss no fuss!

Fish

Leasing a car is worse.

I was tied into one for three years, and was restricted on the mileage and wear and tear I could put on it. I had to pay for all the routine maintenance and service as if I owned the thing, and if I wanted to get out of it early, I would have had to pay a penalty.

At the end of the lease, I still would have to pay a fee just to drop off the car. And if I wanted to keep it, I'd have to pay an inflated price that was way over retail market value.

Makes me wonder if a woman came up with the idea of leasing.

oops...did I say that out loud? :-X

it just sounds so... sterile.

i guess i can't argue on merits of practicality but it just sounds like you're leasing a car or something.  ali and kaveh:  oh yeah... this is definitely something thought up by a guy.  :-)  i know i know... gabriele is a female.  i'm just sayin'...

looking for a husband

Dear JJ

Please answer my questions because I'm really curious to know what are the qualifications of a good husband if there is one.

I agree with Ali P.

this is something that definitely has the support of more men than women. And rightly so.

Unfortunately, there is no benefit for men to be married anymore. And if such an arrangement protects the man financially (assuming there are no children involved) it may not be such a bad idea, even though 2 years sounds so much better than 7.

It's not the length of the marriage that is the problem...

...rather financial inequality in a relationship that is the root of all problems. As long as the two are not financially dependent nor demanding of the other, the relationship works well.

The minute that goes away, its natural that one party has more control and feels used overtime and for the non-working spouse "diplomacy" to maintain her position takes over and "love" goes away.

Agree with JJ, if you don't want kids and you are financially independent then why would you marry. You can be with a person and love them and not sign that piece of paper. Frankly you don't even have to live together. Keeps both on their tip toes and the love more lasting. I guess its no different than sex, once you climax, its down hill from there. Once you get married, its down hill from there.

Sigheh

JJ jan,

I wonder if Germany has this kind of law but in Iran you have Sigheh which is exactly what you say!

In France, many couples (50%) live without being married several years and usually  they make wedding party when they have children and for legal concens (legacy and so..)

Cheers.

different strokes for different folks

jahanshah,  i just threw every possible scenario out there.  i am not prescribing any particular union. i agree that one can psychologically feel more comfortable with the german idea.  but the issues of emotions and children will remain the same.  as far as the legal issues, one can draw up a contract just like the prenuptial agreements for traditional marriages.  i don't worry too much about the word "forever" (maybe that's just me), since everyone who enters a marriage is also familiar with the concept of divorce.  the possibility of divorce takes away the meaning of "forever."  in fact there's a distinction between "forever" in american marriages (until death do us apart) and iranian version (goes into hereafter)!  do these two concepts of "forever" have a meaningful difference?