Very worrisome, indeed

Q!

You state: 

“If Rafsanjani cuts an oil deal and opens Iran's markets to American goods and drops the Euro burse, this whole thing could be over in 6 months. You will find Americans making deals with the Mullahs just like they do with Saudis and Momar Ghaddafi. “ 

Why is that a good argument for normalizing relations with the IRI.  Rafsanjani and others have been looting the wealth of the nation for 30 years, at the expense of the population.  As one post here indicated, khoramshahr still has no running water and Bam is still in ruins.  Why would making it easier for the Mullahs to loot the nation be better for the average Iranian?

I have asked this question from Trita Parsi and Babak Talebi but they have refused to answer it.

May be you can help.

How will normalization of relations change the infrastructure of the IRI riddled with mismanagement and based on the concept of feeding the mouths of the khodies to keep them in power, going to change in favor of the ordinary Iranian, as a result of normalization of relations or lifting of the sanctions? 

People whose minds are

People whose minds are consumed by politics should never be let near Government. Such was Robespierre (French Revolution), and a host of other monsters, who are bloody useless when it comes to actually running a country. Why else do you think Arafat and Hamas, Neocons, and IRI keep warmongering - it keeps the spotlight off their utter inability to sympathise with real people or to improve their lives. They, and you politicos here (e.g. Q et al), are an absolute bloody disaster. Get a real life or think policy not politics.

Look who went with the resolution...

Of the 15 on the Security council only Indonesia abstained.  All others voted for the increased sanctions.  That list includes China, Russia, Libry, and South Africa.  All of these nations are "friends" of Iran if you read the web sites from Iran and the ME.

 I think the so called entry into the space race with a rocket that is more a nuclear war head launcher made even Russia sit up and look. 

El Baradae was very explicit with diplomats during this discussion.  He told them that he believed the evidence against Iran.

 Iran is at the crossroads.  This is not a decision that one man alone should make.  There should be a national referendum.  Yeah or Neah... The Iranian people should decided if international trade and prosperity is their goal or having a miliatary nuclear program.

Re: Q, it is always a pleasure...

... to unmask you and expose your "real" self. You are always trying to pretend you are a "intellectual" who respects "freedom", but it doesn't take much to unmask the rude, angry and hateful "real" you. Now, does it?

But first, I want you to know that I will not lower myself to your level of upbringing nor to your level of intellect, by responding to you in your fashion. I am above that. Also, you and your likes can never initmidate me and my likes by resorting to name calling, or threats and violence.

That's why I still can calmly answer to some of your views from your previous comment without resorting to personal attacks, and do so not to have you convinced, but only to have you exposed.

1. "You ask What the hell is all this "you and the IRI...?" I called you a pro-khomein and a pro-IRI simply because you defend both of them with every opportunity you can find. Oh, I know you may consider yourself a "reformist", but in my book there is no such a think as an IRI reformist. They are both the same: Oppressors of Iranians.

2. When I say that you owe and apologie to Iranians because you are supporting the IRI, it is not due to me "ego", as you claim. Rather, it is due to your indirect role of protecting a regime that is oppressing Iranians by means of harrassment, imprisonment, torturing and execution.

3. It seems you don't like others to talk on behalf of Iran. You directly criticized me for just doing that. But then what gives YOU the right to speak on behalf of Iran? And what gives you the right to surpress me or others by not wanting us to have a say in the future of Iran? Is that your idea of democracy? Anwser: No. It is not. It is the IRI "reformists" idea of democracy.

4. Quote: IMMEDIATE CAUSE of their (Iranians') suffering in the event of war or sanctions ... is the UNITED STATES...' You are false. The immediate cause is the IRI's behavior. If it was the US, then why doesn't the US sanction South Korea, Japan, Spain, Taiwan or many other countries? Answer: Because those governments know how to deal with a bully while at the same time, not hurting their citizens' interests.  The answer is not to engage the bull nor to give in, but to find a middle ground which will best serve the interest of the people. An idea that Islamists like you, and some leftists as well simply cannot comprehend.

5. By resorting to Saddam's case, you are resorting to fallacy. I never compared Saddam with the countries I mentioned above. He does not fit in the "work with" category I previously described. Saddam's behavior was no different than the IRI. He could have served his country had he chosen to abandon his utlra arab nationalist "ideology" and if instead he had focused his efforts on the well being of its people by refraining from attacking other countries.

So no, Saddam was not what I had in mind. Again, I was talking about countires like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Spain and many others prosperous countries who find solutions to deal with the US bully instead of confronting it head on.

6. As far as nuclear power and technology goes, suffice to say that THREE decades ago, Iran was on the verge of becoming a nuclear country with access to, and training in, the most advanced nuclear technology the world had to offer, under the shah's government. THREE decades ago. Another proof that the US does not mind Iran to have access to nuclear technology, nor is it "hell bent" to destroy Iran, but rather, it is the IRI's insane and bankrupt ideology that is the root of our problems.

7. No. We don't want the IRI and the US to destroy Iran. We want you and the IRI to NOT destroy Iran. Here is what the majority of Iranians want from the IRI and from its supporters like you, specially the younger generation:

a. The IRI to immediately release all its political prisoners. 

b. The IRI to hold a "true" refrundum and let the people of Iran choose between a secular and an Islamic republic.

c. The IRI to allow experienced and knowledgable people to lead Iran's economical plans, not those who believe economy is for donkeys.

d. The IRI to allow people to freely worship whatever god/religion they want.

e. The IRI to release all financial information with names of those in charge of all of the "bonyaads" in Iran.

f. The IRI to return the finances these bonyaads control to the its rightful owners, the people of Iran.

g. The IRI to allow respectable and reputable people return Iran to the global village, redeem Iran's name, and establish good relations with the US, Israel and all countries of the world.

i. The IRI to stop selling out Iran's wealth and riches to Russia and China.

h. The IRI to formally demand an explanation as to why the Palestinians betrayed Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, and even helped Saddam in that war, after being helped financially by khomeini. 

j. The IRI to stop spending Iran's money in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and elsewhere, and instead focus on rebuilding the still war torn khuzestan, bam and many other places.

The list can go on.

you both are rude!

Q took a swipe at Jamshid. But Q is right, Jamshid made it very personal in the response.

now kiss and make up!

Jamshid you only understand the language of insults

Jamshid, thanks for exposing yourself as the foul mouthed true "oghdei" that you must be.

I guess you must secretly get off on hearing vicious insults about yourself since that's what you hurl at others, hoping to hear it back. I'm only happy to oblige to your sick masochistic game until it ceases to be amusing.

You always do this, I should have known better to consider you even worthy of a retort. Why can't you ever behave like a normal human being? As with EVERY SINGLE TIME in the past, you START getting personal making putrid and unsubstantiated personal attacks. Why did I think this time was going to be different. It is my own fault.

You produce and crave the language of insults, insinuations and accusations when I have not attacked you personally at all (anyone can check), yet you come back with a string of hate-filled ad hominems. What is it about the mere presence of me that's making you so angry?

What the hell is all this "you and the IRI" is supposed to mean, is this like "Osama and Saddam" so that people think the two things are related? SOOO original of you. Wow, I'm in awe!

What makes you say I don't "care" about the people of Iran when I have made stopping bombs landing on their heads the highest priority. You call me blind, fanatic, oghdei, oppressor, supporter of this and that, etc. Anything but actually having a discussion. Now you claim to speak and demand apologies on behalf of Iran too. Your ego knows no boundaries. I really have to laugh...

I "lack the power to think" you wrote. Really? How old are you 12, 13?

Martike khejalat nemikeshi, badbakht?

This discussion is not about me, yet you clearly demonstrate that you can't help but attack the messenger. You can't EVER get beyond personalities.

Well, whatever... it only destroys any shred of integrity in your own (retarded) argument.

What little substance your confused pathetic brain produced is only worth vommitting over. Yes, we both live in the oppressors land, but only one of us is taking his side against our own country. You have good company there too. You think that from here, you can boss around Iranians telling them what to do, and whose ass to kiss, yet you can't be bothered to lift a finger to affect the IMMEDIATE CAUSE of their suffering in the event of war or sanctions which is the UNITED STATES. Even though you enjoy the benefits of living here in a democracy, you accept none of the responsiblity. We have been through this before. Kalle pook, You have no power over anyone in Iran, but you do have power here, do you even know how to use it? How wonderfully ignorant of you.

Your dichotomy of "sell out" versus "work with" is of course grade A bullshit. Who gets to decide which is which? You? Someone so full of shit claiming to speak on behalf of all of Iran would think that way, of course.

If you understand anything, you understand that there is no "work with" category at all with Iran. There is no logical incentive for US to tolerate any opposition when it comes to the $Billions to be made off the last drops of world's oil. Why should they "work" with anyone?

Have you conviniently forgotten how much Saddam Hussein "worked with" America? They tore off half the country, bombed iraq regularly, he still cooperated with the inspections and he even destroyed his own defensive missiles while Bush and Blair were laughing their asses off getting ready to ruin his nation. Wasn't that "working with" America you stupid moron? Is that the kind of "working" that you want Iran to do. Just make it even more convinient to destroy the country? Have you no shame?

Ask your mornic self, what COULD Iraq have done to persuade Bush. Do you think, for even an instance that there was ANYTHING? ANYTHING AT ALL?

You not only can't argue worth shit, you don't understand Iranians at all. The word you are looking for is "capitulation." Not being able to use a natural resource like Uranium in your own country because someone half-way around the world says so, is capitulation. Iranians will fight for it. But no Iranian will ATTACK for it. That's the difference you don't seem to understand. There is a cause and effect relationship. National rights are worth DEFENDING not ATTACKING for.

You also act like Iran didn't try to work with US. Like Khatami didn't suspend enrichment for 2 years only to find that it was all BS. Like Iran didn't reach out for a compromise on numerous occasions, even putting support for Hezbollah on the Table.

You seem to think Ahmadinejad came to power because people thought "working with" America was producing results! It was the opposite. As I said, there is no "working with" somone hell bent on destroying you. The people of Iran must understand this which is why they support a harder line themselves. (look at any poll on enrichment). You are the one who is out of it. You may speak on behalf of Rafsanjani "pragmatists" with your capitulation talk, but you don't understand shit about Iranians and their values.

I'm not going to bother to read your lame responses. You have now ceased to be amusing. You have neither desire nor ability to hold a serious conversation and you deserve no respect. You are officially beyond hope. Go screw yourself. -- just expressing my opinion.

ZION: are you pretending like you care about innocent Iranians now? Instead of issuing hollow threats against people you can't control, and trying to free "Islamic Slaves" in someone else's country, shouldn't you try to improve the apartheid state of Israel first?

Your history is all screwed up. You must not have too much education. Japanese WERE themselves fascists and imperialists. What was the last imperial act that Iran has done? Your brand of "might makes right" justice is an insult to every real Jew. It will come to bite you in the ass someday very soon. Until than, go ahead and try to kill as many Palestinian children as you can. You too are too stupid to hold a real conversation without resorting to personal attacks.

Re: Q, I owe you nothing

What I stated is my opinion about what Iran's options are and how people like you are hurting Iranians. I do not apologize for stating my opinion.

There were exactly three words which could have possibly bothered you: Blind, oghde, estesmaar. Unfortunately these words describe the mindset of many Iranians when it comes to finding real solutions. I shall anazlyze each word below.

Blind oghdeh. What other two words can I use to describe a mindset that cannot (oghdeh) and does not (blind) think intellegently on behalf of his people, and as a result makes his people suffer, even if unintentionally? I am open to suggestions.

estesmaar: Imperialists "estesmaar" others for material gains. But this is not the only way to "estesmaar" people. A group of people can "estesmaar" another for ideological gains as well. I think many people who think like you are not aware that this is exactly what they are doing to their own people. I am open to suggestions for replacement words.

Two other notes: You yourself have called me a fascist, a coward, an asshole, ..., among other things in the past, just because I dared to state my opinion and that opinion differed from yours, and now you have the audacity to ask for an apology because I said you are blind?

Second, I do not apologize to supporters of Khomeini and IRI, the oppressors of Iran, for ANYTHING, period. Being apologized to is a privielge that they had lost long ago. In fact, it is you who owes an apology to millions of oppressed Iranians, for having been a supporter of the IRI. 

Yes, it is a dog-eat-dog world

Bigger dogs will often eat you unless you give them a reason that it's not worth it for them to try. Giving them "some" of yourself will only wet their appotite.

Jamshid, you owe me an apology

Your post is drenched with personal ad hominem attacks when I have done not such thing to you. This is beyond anything warranted in this discussion. If you want to have a real conversation, you have to apologize for these nasty insults you have thrown my way with no justification.

What's all the noise? Dog eats dog....

What's new?
What's all the excitement about?
All defenders of attacking Iran for whatever reason have come out of woodwork again.
specially the defenders of Zionism and Western world domination.
The problem with your thinking lies in the false understanding of People in middle east, even if you were born there.
Now people like Zion who even his name is offensive to moslem don't have any idea about how deep people's resentment toward Israel and West is.
What's all the noise?
All these governments with veto power already have the bomb!
They can destroy Iran 5000 times over.
Then their problem is not if Iran is thinking(god forbid) about building a bomb.
It is about world domination and subjugation of weaker nations in order to steal their riches.
Dog eats dog world, that's what it is all about.

No doubt in my mind

I have no doubt that ruling moslem, following their cult's teaching won't mind a bit if millions of Iranians suffer due to their lack of understanding of world politics and laws of economics. From outset of that cult where their leader promised whores in heaven and send thousand to their death to furnish him with an empire until today cult of islam has never cared for PEOPLE.

As Q mentiond, the moslem akhonds, similar to ex-Iraqi leaders will continue to build their palaces and have fine French wine with their dinners when childern die to lack of chlroine to purify the drinking water due to sanctions. By the way Q, it has been 20 years since the cease fire and citizens of cities like Khorramshahr and Abadan still don' have adequate access to drinking water! And how many years since Bam earthquake and people still live in shipping countainer. Please understand we know islamic leaders don't give a damn about citizens. People are suffering with or without sanctions due to mismanagment by moslem leaders.

Re: Q #2

To clarify something: I hate the American dominion as much as you do. But I care for my people's well being too. Something that you are not capable of. I don't believe the people of Iran should sacrifice it all in order to put the US in its place. You do however.

The South Korean and Spanish people too would suffer from sanction or wars, should they decide to behave like Iran. That's a promise. The US will not show them any mercy either.

But why aren't the South Korans or Spanish people suffering from threat of war or sanctions eventhough the US is exercising its dominion in those countries as well? Because their governments behaves responsibly towards its citizens. They do not blindly and fanatically fight against US dominion when working with them would result to better lives for their citizens. Because unlike the IRI and your likes, they are responsible governments.

I read this in your comment: "If Rafsanjani cuts an oil deal and opens Iran's markets to American goods and drops the Euro burse, this whole thing could be over in 6 months..."

Well, why doesn't he? Just sit down and forsee the future and see all of the benefits that this action would bring to the people of Iran and to the quality of their lives. The IRI does not have to behave like a sellout that the Saudis are. It can behave like South Korean, Spanish and Japanese who give some and then take some, and by being smart, which they are, they provide some of the highest quality of lives for their citizens.

In a way, you yourself are admitting that it is the IRI's fault that the helpless people of Iran must face the threat of war and sanctions. The USA will increasingly make things worst for Iran through sanctions and other means with every passing day, no matter how many tantrums you or the IRI make, and as a result the "people" of Iran will suffer and hurt. Why and for what?

So that your and IRI's "oghdeh" could be relieved? I am afraid yes, that is the only reason why my people have to suffer at your and IRI's hands.

The problem had been and still is the IRI's behavior. The problem for IRI is that if it changes its behavior in order to benefit the masses, then it won't be the IRI anymore, would it? Because soon after such change, the mullahs would be removed from their position of power. But the mullahs don't want to give up their dominion and power, do they? Does it not remind of you the "imperalist" Americans struggle to maintain their power? Which you criticize so much?

This may be a surprise to you, but you, Q, are one of "them", one of the very same "imperialists" you criticize. With some minor differences, you both "estesmaar" your victims for your own ends. 

Re: Q

The USA, as any other imperialist power, be it the Roman or Persian empires of the distant past, the British of the last century, Soviets or Americans of this century, they all have had one goal: To control their world in order to remain in power, not necessarily for the betterment of their people, but just for the sake of staying in power.

Then we have the targets that "need" to be controlled, countries like Iran. So what are our options?

1. Sell out to them.

2. Figth them.

3. Work with them.

Selling out is unacceptable. That's the path that Saudi Arabia and its cousins have taken. 

As far as fighting them, history proves that with a few exceptions fighting against a superpower is more damaging to the fighters than to the superpower. That's the path that countries like Iran, Iraq (pre 2003) and Cuba have chosen.

I firmly believe that working with them is the best solution. Don't confuse "working with them" with "selling out". It is quite the contrary. Here you give some and take some, with the goal of taking more than what you give. It is the path that the South Koreans, Japanese, Spanish and many other countries have chosen. The people in these countries are having good, decent, prosperous and relatively free lives, while the people of Iran, Cuba and other similar countries are absorbing the misery and suffering of resistance.

Even China is in many ways is working with the USA and not fighting it head on, as Iran is or the Soviets were.

What you and the likes of you lack is two things:

1. The power to think and be smart.

2. The compassion to think of your fellow countrymen and women's well being.

What you and the likes of you have plenty is one thing:

1. The blind, fanatic, "oghdei" and thoughtless idea of fighting the US head on, and to hell with the people of Iran's well being or their suffering. After all, to you it is a "sacrifice" the Iranian people have to make for a "greater" goal.

What makes it worst, is to hear "fight!", "resist!", etc, from you and the others like you who are living right here in the comfort of the country of the oppressor itself, while your people in Iran have to make all the sacrifices, and suffer plenty as a result.

It is this one thing about blind, oghdei and irresponsible people like you that hits the nerve the most.  

The Mask Falling Off Completely

Q?
So the mullahs and Guardians in Iran are heros refusing to bow down to America? You find this kind of lunacy as the right thing to do? The right thing to do is to take care of the needs of your people, to give them freedom to build their lives, their land, as free people not Islamic slaves.
Standing up against the West and Imperialism and mottos like this are the delusions and obsession of power hungry fascists. Remember the Japanese Q? They were so `heroic` in WWII, standing up against the Imperialists, worshiping their version of `source of divine emulation`, having their own suicide martyrs. What did their heroic lunacy cost for their people? Now after wards when they stopped being your type of fascistic heros, where do they stand now?
Your other heros are no better, the Vietnamese, North koreans, Baathists, The Nazis, the Cubans, the Khmer rouge, all facing boldly against american aggression, where do they stand?
Listen carefully. You better pray the world will succeed in not allowing a nuclear armed Islamic Iran. For your own sake if not for anyone else. You want the people not to suffer? It is very easy. let your heroic leaders of Iran put aside this lunacy, give the power back to their people and let Iran become a free, sane open land on the road to progress and joining the rest of the free and advanced world.
They are the ones responsible. Under this situation, it is either war casualties, hardships of sanctions or, god forbid, a nuclear apocalypse. It is ultimately the regime in tehran who decides which path to go and holds full responsibility for all the suffering its madness has caused and will continue to cause.

Jamshid,

The soviets were not civilized at all either. What you mean is, they were not suicidal and apocalyptic minded as these bunch. you have a point. There is however a limit any governing system can tolerate without crumbling. To prevent unnecessary suffering, we need complete sanctions on oil industry. Islamic Iran can`t last long enough to harm the people considerably. How ever the profit seeking nations can`t be persuaded to that stage immediately, but there is hope that when things pass a certain threshold everyone gets to the moment of truth to decide over survival versus immediate profit. Any steps in that direction must be welcomed.

The most important part of

The most important part of the report, burried deep in the last page is this:

The chief American negotiator, R. Nicholas Burns, who left his job on
Friday, countered that the sanctions were all about Iran’s refusal to
stop enriching uranium, not about weapons. But that argument was a
tough sell.

American "strategy" is to punish a country that doesn't bow down to American power and "western" glory. Pure and simple. There is no threat whatsoever to America. This is all to force compliance to the mafia head, Uncle Sam. They don't give a rats ass what kind of "thugs" are in power where, any idiot can see what kidn of regimes they support now and have supported for years without losing any sleep. No shit it was a tough sell.

I realize some people can't be bothered to think about the millions who will suffer needlessly as a result of sanctions. Zion, it's clear you don't care and neither do your buddies currently killing Gazans. And Jamshid, you are trying to blame the victim saying it would be Iran's fault. Sort of like how it was Iraq's fault that half a million children died during "smart sanctions" in the 90's. Why? Because saddam was hiding all these weapons we now know he didn't have?

Can someone tell me what all those years of brutal sanctions accomplished for the people of Iraq? Did Saddam go hungry? Was it Saddam's grand kids who couldn't go to school because graphite in pencils was considered "dual use" technology? Was it the ruling party whose children died of preventable diseases because chlorine to purify water could not be imported?

Who are you people kidding? This is naked imperialist aggression. It has nothing to do with Iranian government. If Rafsanjani cuts an oil deal and opens Iran's markets to American goods and drops the Euro burse, this whole thing could be over in 6 months. You will find Americans making deals with the Mullahs just like they do with Saudis and Momar Ghaddafi. Am I lying here?

Iraq's sanctions through 13 UN resolutions started out exactly the same way.

Please snap out of it. Anyone can see what's going on.

Re: Zion

You are wrong Zion.

That's because you are comparing the Soviet communists of the 80s, members of a bankrupt ideology, but nevertheless "cvilized" people, with the IRI thugs, members of another bankrupt idology, BUT as "uncivlized" as it can get.

The IRI will not have any remorse nor shame nor fear in killing a million or more of its own citizens through mass famine as a result of sanctions, or through mass executions as a result of people rebellion. The Soviets of the 80s would not resort to this behavior.

You are underestimating the IRI thugs.

Good Signs, Reason To Hope

I find this a very good news and I think such developments must give us all hope. If we want to prevent a devastating war, the only other option is sever sanctions on the regime in Iran to either back off and halt its dangerous adventurism or collapse from within under economic pressures as did the soviet union. Every one should make up their minds which do they prefer, a dangerous waste of time that will lead to a disastrous war or such developments that will prevent it in the long run.