Khodadad Rezakhani

Avi Shlaim served in......

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

//www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

Ebi aka Haaji

Your history is wrong...

I find your claims to be a bit much. I thought Iranians were supposed to be superior intellectually, and highly educated. You seem to have been separated from the herd. And please spare us, you are not a reporter, so don't bring an alleged overhearing of 2 Iranian Jews jabbering nonsense at an LA coffee shop as fact. If only you heard it, it's not fact. Especially you. Actually CNN, FOX have been running the story since day 1. Another fact for you. Anderson Cooper is on assignment there today, so your contention is a lie. You are no historian. You have an obviously motivated opinion, and that merely makes you opinionated. My opinion is that the 49ers should have gone to the super bowl, that doesn't make it true. You have a right to your opinion, and to express it on this site. But if it is your opinion you think Israel has genocidal plans for the Palestinians, say that as an opinion please. Don't suggest it as a fact that you know, or history that you are trying to rewrite, and then run away and ask Israel to confirm your suspicions. As if you have any power to engage in official dialogue!

Finally, as usual, you seem so content with the conditions of our own people and the relatively unacceptable level of oppression and lack of basic human dignity, never mind freedom, in our own country, Iran, that you now have ample time to run around the world and opinionate on matters that do not concern you or us. Tell us Oh wise historian, what is your opinion on the ongoing systemic rape of women in the Congo?

Khejalat bekesh, We have more important things to attend to! Once we have our own country back, and aren't oppressed, and know how to behave, we can think about solving the rest of the world's problems.

Hamas, as Hezbollah before it, is directly supported by the radical factions within our own country, Iran. Do you have an opinion on that fact? What does your Professional Historian perspective suggest? Or is dealing with our own problems too uncomfortable? And what about a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis? Do you even have the slightest coherent opinion on that? Please join Cyrus and go back to sleep.

so pathetic

It is such a pathetic tactic that some our friend find every opportunity to shout their own agenda rather than trying to understand plight of 1.5 million defenseless women and children under the boots of muredreous  Israeli army.

FYI, Israeli TANKS shelled an UN school in Gaza and killed 40 children.

Shame to you guys and your hypocracy and cold heatedness.

capt_ayhab [-YT]

WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE WHEN HAMAS LEADERS HIDE IN HOSPITALS

From the JPost:

[IDF officials] said that it was likely that a number of senior Hamas operatives and terror chiefs were hiding and conducting their operations from within Shifa Hosptial in Gaza City.

“Hamas operatives are in the hospital and have disguised themselves as nurses and doctors,” one official explained.

Now the Israelis have done it — they’ve forced Hamas leaders to dress up like nurses. Zionist cruelty knows no bounds.

Wow

Well, i have been gone and see that you guys have turned this into a Sherlock Holms' class for detecting who the real DW/AI/Q/ZION etc. is. I know that no one but JJ has "editorial authority", but this is too much. Please at least say something that is remotely related to the issue of the main post.

Rosie's Ghost: thanks for the excellent comment. I appreciate it. I am asking this genuinely and not as a challenge at all. Considering that the couple were Iranian Jews, and despite all other pressures, they have not actually experienced the Holocaust, could your analogy of the oppressed becoming oppressor actually work? The case of your former partner is directly related to the Holocaust, his mother was a survivor after all...

Also, I am sorry to point out to all those people who called me dishonest or similar for not addressing the human rights abuses of the IRI. Please use the skills you learned in the primary school: READ! This post was not pointing out any human rights abuses, nor was it saying that the israeli crimes are the only ones out there, neither did it say that the IRI is right. It was simply encouraging the Israeli government to admit that they plan to exterminate the Palestinians. They are going to do it anyway, at least be honest about it.

I am not sitting here distributing blame for human rights abuses around the world so to make your comments such as "I will talk to you when you protest the closure of the office of Ms. Ebadi" relevant. I am talking about a specific issue.

Work for Peace

Shame shame
Here they are @ it again.
2 years ago lebenon and now Gaza.
I hope they come to terms w them .
Peace
No war .

Noahide law (to Kashani)

Kashani says: "IRI doesn't portray itself in the region as a "shite" power (but apparently you do!), thats why it has gained support among young Arabs and Muslims. It's propaganda machine has worked (people like you contributed to that success!!, but the trend is reversing, trsut me!)."

Kashani, IRI started weakening its ideological base (Shiite Islam) quite sometime ago. In fact, the trend you are talking about started long time ago, right after 1979 victory over Shah, when IRI mixed politics with religion to that extent. I remember that, because that is when I broke one of the noahide laws (I cursed G-d)!
Kashani_jAn, it does not matter how IRI portrays itself as, even many western political analysts nowadays are aware of Shiite Sunni divisions and differences. Read CIA's Robert Bear book or watch his video for example.
BTW, Kashani_jAn, with all due respect, I don't trust the word of extremists, as you know they chAkhAn too much!

Worldwide protests denounce Israel

at Israel's bombardment of innocent women and children. Rallies are being held in London, Paris, Berlin, Rome, Athens and several Asian cities, following similar events in parts of the Muslim world on Friday.

Earlier, tens of thousands of Israeli Arabs called for an end to the bombing campaign at a rally in northern Israel.

Thousands of people voiced their anger at the continued Israeli offensive in Gaza during a series of rallies across the world on Saturday.

In central London, protesters - including the singer Annie Lennox and former mayor Ken Livingstone - marched along the Embankment to Trafalgar Square. Some chanted "Free, free Palestine" and "Israel terrorists".
Many stopped en route to throw hundreds of shoes at the gates of Downing Street, echoing the protest of an Iraqi journalist who threw his shoes at President Bush last month.

David

I can also understand your frustration with organized religion, especially after the experience you all had of the theocracy that came to be after 1979. However what lies behind religions, and what was the inspiration for their formation is a deeply inbred cognitive feature of our species. If one is not careful, it can lead to disaster, as the twentieth century is a good reminder. Nietzche understood this very early on. In any case, there are these interesting video series by a professor of psychology at Harvard and later at University of Toronto in Canada that analyzes the psychological and even neurological foundations of myths and religious traditions and concepts, primarily based on the works of the famous Mircea Eliade. I think you will find them interesting and I do recommend them:
//www.psych.utoronto.ca/users/peterson/welcom...

Zion

I didnt get defensive or bothered at all. no worries.

I just think religion is as good as its evil, because its our creattion. So better off not fighting over it which I see all around the world and throught history

I already said God has no religion and neither do I

MY BOOK which is a very little one also says

and GOD created man and man created religions.

Peace

Gaza, isn't this what the Nazis did to the Jews?

What Israel has been doing to Palestinians is the very definition of Holocaust. Lets read how Holocaust is described by the historians:

"The persecution and genocide were accomplished in stages. Concentration camps were established. Specialized units called Einsatzgruppen murdered Jews and political opponents in mass shootings. Jews and Roma were crammed into ghettos. Gaza is a big concentration camp.

" Every arm of Nazi Germany's bureaucracy was involved in the logistics of the mass murder, turning the country into what one Holocaust scholar has called "a genocidal state".

Israeli army is the Nazi army and Israeli government is the Genocidal State. All you have to do is change the names. Replace the word "jews" and "roma people" with "Palestinians"

Anonymous7, IRI doesn't

Anonymous7,

IRI doesn't portray itself in the region as a "shite" power (but apparently you do!), thats why it has gained support among young Arabs and Muslims. It's propaganda machine has worked (people like you contributed to that success!!, but the trend is reversing, trsut me!).

So, they view it as a "Muslim" power, not a "Shite" power. Trust me, you guys are making a big mistake thinking these Islamists view Iran as a "shite" power. Look at Hamas, an ultra Sunni group, its pretty much a puppet of the IRI.

Dear Anonym7

You are 100% correct. We should all share our views and understand each other. This is the best way to understand and get an open mind. I have a feeling that some people have made up their minds, from both sides of the arguments, and are not willing to look at the true picture. Zionist Detector suffers from this closed mindedness. 

I was like this when younger and very quickly learned for example that what Israel does in the occupied territories is wrong. Suffering of humans must end on all sides. I think many Israelis understand that the occupation is wrong and want to end it as a result of listening to the other side. 

For example, Olmert, as much as he is hated now because of Lebanon, was a very right wing politician in the 80's and did not think the Palestinians deserved their own state. He has come full circle on this. This type of change does not happen overnight. 

exagerating again Kashani!?

Kashani, you are right in saying that IRI doesn't care about the Palestinians ... however as usual you are exaggerating IRI's agenda and role. IRI does not want and can not dominate the region! IRI as a Shiite theocracy is a minority and as always is more or less in a defensive mode. On the other hand the ultra-right/AIPAC policies that you support, by default have been in offensive mode against Iran and others including Russia (in Georgia).
Kashani_jAn, I thought you promised to exaggerate less this year?

regarding the Kurds

Re: Darius KADIVAR

While I do not deny the persecution of the Kurds throughout the region, might I point your attention to the fact that the Kurds are now terrorizing Iraqis in Northern Iraq, specifically a minority of Christians that have lived in and around Mosul for hundreds of years and suffered just as much under Saddam's regime. The targeted Iraqi Christians we hear about in the Western news are actually being persecuted by Kurdish militias attempting to wipe them out or run them off from the area. And so the picture is not so simplistic. And while I do not hold all Kurds responsible for what is taking place in North Western Iraq, I ask that you think of the plight of the Palestinians as a plight of humanity, as that akin to the plight of non-violent Kurds seeking political sovereignty and ordinary Iraqis who are attempting to survive in a country overrun by occupation and subsequent struggles for power.

Any One Cares about the Kurdish Genocide by IRI ? ;0)

Just Wondering if your Selective Indignation applies to  our own Beloved IRI ? 

As for IRI Apologists and Supporters I suppose the Fate and Blood of the Poor Palestinians is More Sacred in their Eyes to that of the Kurds they Willingly Kill OFF !

Where Are Your Petitions Gentlemen ? ...

//iranian.com/main/news/2008/12/21/iraq-kurdistan-comes-under-iran-turkish-bombardment

FYI: Short clip re: Israel's perspective

Here is a short clip that gives an explanation of Israel's reason for taking action against Hamas.

//sderot.aish.com/SderotPetitions/MissilesFromGaza.php

The biggest beneficiary of

The biggest beneficiary of prolonging the Israeli Palestinian conflict is not the Israel people or government, nor the Palestinian people or government, not even Hamas, and not the Iranian people. The biggest beneficiary is the IRI regime. IRI regime has a vital interest in pro longing this conflict, that’s why it pushes its puppet regime Hamas to pro long the war. Majority of Arabs and Israeli and Iranians want peace and fair treatment for Palestinians, but, IRI asks for something else, which is the demolition of Israel. By asking that and promoting this view, it makes any possible peace between the two sides of the conflict impossible.

IRI does its outmost for the conflict to continue for the following reasons, and more :

-         Divert attention from itself and its Islamic fundamentalism promoting agenda.

-         Make itself look good by making Israel look bad.

-         Gain support among young Muslims and Arabs as the “sole supporter for Muslim cause”, so those young individuals can operate as the “Global Islamic movement” soldiers. (i.e Islamic Terrorism).

And those are the reasons the IRI have taken initiative in the Israeli Arab conflict. Think about it, why would a regime that has pushed human rights of its own people down the toilette, care about Palestinians? Listen to its supporters on this site..not a single word about the none stop massacring of our people in Iran, but look how many posting they have in support of Palestinian people!! Who are they trying to fool???? Zion, Artificial intelligence, guys,,,please note, these guys don’t give a rats behind about Palestinian people, rather, they are more concerned with promoting IRIs agenda.

IRI wants this conflict to continue so it can remove any possible hurdle on its path to dominating the region under its fundamentalism agenda. Those hurdles are Israel, moderate Arab nations, and “modernism” and “moderation” both. If you listen to IRI’s propaganda these days, you’ll see that its bad mouthing moderate Arabs and “Democratic” nations for not fighting Israel, more than bad mouthing Israel itself!. In fact, by bad mouthing Human Rights Organization and Democratic nations, its intentions are to bad mouth democracy itself by make it look “unuseful” in stopping Israel, because democracy and modernism and peacefulness and moderation, are IRI’s kryptonite, and according to its view, are not the “solution” to this crisis. IRI might not be scared from atomic bombs, but its sure scared from allowing women not to wear hijab! In the process, innocent Palestinians and Israelis are dying. The world, including Arabs and Israelis, need to unite and help Iranians remove the IRI regime so the region and world finally can see peace. Until IRI is in power, there will never be peace.

Re: This thread ... (to ZD)

Zionist Detector, call me weak link or whatever you want, but I don't like you telling us what to talk about. Even if zion is 00-zion, I don't care, I appreciate her cementing here despite being in top of her s**t list.
BTW, not only am I not worried about Zionists posting here, I am happy that they post here, we need to understand each other. Debates happen between people of different or opposing views.

David

I disagree. Your point about texts with gods in them or god given texts applies to many ancient mythologies. Even Ferdowsi`s epics are based on older texts that were religious and seen as god given by their people for centuries. Homer`s epics are filled with gods interfering, choosing people or sending messages. I don`t see how this necessarily contradicts their mythological essence. I don`t quit see why you insist on confusing a national and cultural identity that is partly preserved in a religious tradition with being religious. Iranian national identity was also forged in a religious context first, and if it weren`t for a change of religion it would still involve a religious side to it, yet it would still be possible for Iranians to have a modern understanding of their entire heritage including its religious sides. I see no contradiction. The same can be said of Hindus, of Greek pagan religions or say of Shinto Buddhism in Japan. The reason I like arguing about what Torah says is because it is a rich cultural heritage and much can be said about it, and it interests me. I don`t have to believe in it literally in a medieval sense to be interested in it and its complex structures. Who says the story of Abraham means this.. no one. It is one of the ways it can be viewed and I think it is the most meaningful and fruitful way of approaching it because I think it is the nearest thing to what it was originally intended to be seen as by its original multiple authors. You don`t have to share my interests, so no need to get defensive. As I said, I made an observation on your observation. If you don`t like this topic, we don`t have to talk about it.

Take Action (Amnesty International)

Please Click on The Link to send an email or a letter to Secretary Rice. 

We are asking Secretary Rice to urgently express deep concern about Israel's disproportional response and its policies which have brought the Gaza Strip to the brink of humanitarian disaster. We also urge her to call on Israeli authorities and Hamas to immediately cease all unlawful attacks and help reverse the dire humanitarian crisis in Gaza by exerting pressure on Israel to open the crossings to allow adequate quantities of humanitarian aid -- including food, water, medicine and fuel into Gaza.

This is not a political stance and it's solely for stopping the  humanitarian disaster in the region.

Thank you

IRANdokht

Hundreds of thousands demonstrate against Israel for Genocide

of Palestinians. People of the world went to the streets on Friday and showed their hatred towards the criminal zionist regime of Israel for the Genocide of Palestinian people.

Ex-Eurythmics singer Annie Lennox and other celebrities, including activist Bianca Jagger, comedian Alexei Sayle and politicians including former London mayor Ken Livingstone, held a press conference in London demanding Israel halt the onslaught.

In Bern, Switzerland, hundreds of people marched, calling for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza and demanding that the international community impose sanctions against Israel.

People of the world are waking up and standing with Palestinians to defend their rights like any other free nation.

Zion

“I’m sure you know by now I do not practice any religion and I am not a religious Jew."

That is what most of you say but I say you are religious and just denying it to yourself and/or others. I don't care what you folks do or don’t on Saturdays or the other one prays 5 times or not, those are personal rituals that won't affect me, but in the more important aspects of your decisions , your "religion based views" affect everyone's life in matters of politics when you are religious! Otherwise why would you be arguing so much about what you think Torah says or doesn’t ?

"the stories like that of Abraham and Isaac are in reality part of a national mythology, ......you can compare them with the story of Rustam and Sohrab in the Shahnamah ....."

Again I disagree. Ferdowsi did not claim to be a messenger of God or say that I need to follow his stories and therefore you don't see people of the world taking the side of Rostam or Sohrab and fighting each other over it but the minute the source of story becomes God the deception and the arguments and fights begin.

Then you tell me what story of Abraham means but then I answer: says who? YOU? 

But some Rabbi and Ayatollah define the "God given" lessons and orders of the stories differently and then the fighting starts among followers of the same religion to the point of one Ayatollah imprisoning another and one followers killing another.

The root of these problems are not these "man made" stories but it is when these RELIGIOS claim they are "God given" and then the deception and bigotry starts and one group of humans kick another group out of their homes and do not allow back in because their God gave the GRANT deed to them based on THEIR understanding of the RELIGIOUS stories!!

Actually while you were

Actually while you were working on your post, I clarified my comment to say:

"Now, the Zionists and fundamentalist Xtians just lost a huge election to a man with Muslim roots who is already calling the Israeli attacks on Gaza a crisis "

Here is something to think about with respect to Zionists having the support of Jews and Americans.

//www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1191257274889

//www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3446492,00.html

As far as giving material to Zion to work with, I hope that I have.  I am more concerned about getting to the root of the problem than engaging in debates on Iranain.com.  If I have given her something to work with then I a hope she can do something constructive with it.  :)

DW

"There are conflicting positions on how the settlement took place and
the impact of the Balfour Declaration etc. The bottom line is that the
people were displaced and now we have the issue of the right of return"

This really does not matter anymore except for Historians and Columbia University professors who are still complaining. There is a State called Israel. The world recognizes this state. Most Arab states have come to terms with it and have offered it solutions for peace. 

"What you and Zion would propose, which is a continuation of the status
quo, is simply going to result in the death of hundreds of thousands if
not millions of innocent people"

What do I propose? What was my proposal? I can't talk for Zion. The Arab states have given a workable proposal, the PA are still negotiating with the Israelis and talking to them. The Arab states are the ones who would like to see Hamas go and the PA back. Why? The Egyptians are helping the Israelis and are blaming Hamas? Why? Or Should we follow the proposals of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah?  You are fully aware that they were also against Oslo like the religious Zionist. But the religious Zionist did not go blowing themselves up in buses to as crazy as they are.

I am sorry I don't buy all your arguments about the challenges to peace. Why the obstacles you list include Jews and Fundamentalist Christians only? There are no Arab and Muslim obstacles? Why the burden on Jews and Christians only? All the Obstacle are workable but they have been derailed by bad decision making by Israelis, Palestinians and outside influnces such as Iran and to a minimal extent the religious right here in the US. I do agree that the religious Zionist will pose a challenge but It has to do with their retarded views.  They also posed a challenge to Sinai withdrawl and the Gaza withdraw but Israel withdrew.   

Could there be a war? Yes. Do the Israelis want it? NO. The Israelis living out of the West bank are in no mood to fight for these Settlements. Is a war necessary to force Israel to make a peace that is not to its actual terms and liking? Maybe. But these stupid Hamas people or Hezbollah are not going to be the ones. They are actually making it worse and convincing more Israelis that its better to fight them. 

Finally, I am very surprised to hear this from you:  

"Now, the Jews and Xtians just lost a huge election to a man with
Muslim roots who is already calling the Israeli attacks on Gaza a crisis"

Didn't 80% of the Jews in America just vote for Obama? I know that the Israeli polls preferred MCain but that is because they knew MCain's record.  And so what that Obama calls it a "crisis". Do you think American Jews/Israelis are that worried with Rahm Emanuel, David Axelrod, Hillary Clinton......?

Zion, skilled linguist....

I usually like to wash away the make up and get to the heart of the point.

Human life is sacred and should be treated that way. All the mumbo jumbo words can not wash away human suffering. Justice needs to prevail in order to have a civilized society. Uncivilized society is doomed to crumble sooner or later.
The suffering of Palestinians in Gaza parallels and is closely analogous to the suffering of Jewish folks in European Ghettos in every bit. I'm sure you are fully verse on contemporary history as it relates to Jews.

Zion view: Justice for me
Jewish/Christian/Muslim view: Justice for ALL

Reply to AI

You said:

"I am sorry, Israel was created mainly for Jews and not for Arabs. It has created many problems for many innocent people but such is life. Sorry  if it looks like I have no heart. This is how I see the world. if it means fighting and wars to keep it Israel as a Jewish State, so let it be for now as you, the Halacha and the rest of the world can not guarantee the future safety of the Jewish people. Maybe in a few hundred years, when we the people of this planet learn how to live without any borders, wars and killings we can just get rid of the Israeli border of the Jewish State and it will be utopia for all. This is my opinion and I think the opinion of the majority of the Jews in the world."

The first sentence is the root of the problem.  There are conflicting positions on how the settlement took place and the impact of the Balfour Declaration etc.  The bottom line is that the people were displaced and now we have the issue of the right of return.  What you and Zion would propose, which is a continuation of the status quo, is simply going to result in the death of hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people.  This issue is not going to go away by pretending it will.  The greatest opposition to a viable solution is coming from religious zionists in Israel.  It is a catch 22 because of their views on the law of ger toshav.  The second greatest opposition to a resolution is from the secular Zionists who are going to defend Israel come hell or high water regardless of who is shown to be right.  The third greatest obstacle to a resolution are the fundamentalist Xtains who are going to defend Israel because they believe they are preparing for the Armgeddon after which their messiah will return.  Put these three groups together and you have an interesting but colorful mix.  Now, the Zionists and fundamentalist Xtians just lost a huge election to a man with Muslim roots who is already calling the Israeli attacks on Gaza a crisis.  Where do you think that leaves you and Zion in your answer to this problem.  "You can have this gun when you pry my cold dead fingers off of it."  :) 

My point about halacha is that there will come a time when it will either be corrected or rendered moot.  That time has not yet arrived. 

I still play but not as much as I would like.  I have been too busy practicing law.  But that is changing as my firm changes.  Are you still in NY? :)       

This thread is not about who is who of Zion, Genocide of Palesti

nians is the subject. This Israeli terrorist campaign on the Palestinian people in Gaza Strip fits the definitions of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Israeli military and political leaders should all be arrested and tried before international courts. Human rights organizations should file law suits against them in every country in the world.

For those who wonder why the US government blindly supports Israeli terrorists, an answer can be found in the research which points to the Zionist Israeli control of US government, as documented in The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy By John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt. //www.ccun.org/Documents/The%20Israel%20Lobby...

The very centeral issue

was said by Artificial Intelligence. It really all comes down to this, doesn't it?

"I am sorry, Israel was created mainly for Jews and not for Arabs. It has created many problems for many innocent people but such is life."

Those who think this and those who do not.

David

I'm sure you know by now I do not practice any religion and I am not a religious Jew. That is why I understand your frustration with the way all this stuff is being rationalized by religious authority of one way or another. However the stories like that of Abraham and Isaac are in reality part of a national mythology, and if you look at them in that way, there is an interesting aspect to them. Let's stick with the Abraham-Isaac sacrifice story as an example. The kind of category these stories belongs to, and what you should compare the stories with are not religious rulings, but other nation's mythologies. That is where they belong, the way they were originally intended to be understood, and that is where they can relate real meaning and possible wisdom. In our example, you can compare them with the story of Rustam and Sohrab in the Shahnamah and with the story of Oedipus in the Greek tragic plays. They form a spectrum. From filicide in Rustam's story to patricide in the Greek version. They tell things about the cultures that have created them. In this context, the story of Abraham and Isaac makes sense. It is a polemic against petrified patriarchy, and against revolutionary anarchy. It is a tale of reconciliation with the help of an intermediary, the abstract notion of a god that sets laws beyond the power of the elders of the tribe which at the same time protects the tribe from disintegrating. In the canaanite context it is also a direct polemic against common practices of child sacrifice at that time. That is actually the way all Jewish scriptures have to be approached in my opinion. My point is, problems arise only when mythological and cultural inheritance of a people are taken out of their context and made into universalist and absolutist sets of dogmas to rule over societies. The mythologies themselves, if viewed in their right context, can still be beautiful and meaningful.
Anyways, that's just an observation on your observation! :-)