Niki Tehranchi

Another lost in translation moment, I wonder who's sorry 4 this!

Everything is sacred

Lesson Learned!

There is a lesson in the story for all the newly-arrived.

Don't let your dad hang out with your Jr. High classmates! Or expect some unwanted reaction from the handyman!

Niki jaan 12 years olds are exempt!

You know whatever a 12 year old says can be swept under the rug by parents!  No matter how s/he tries to apologize for his/her parent(s), the parent can always smile and say don't mind him/her, s/he's cranky!

I'm talking mostly when you graduate from high school and are now in college or better yet graduated from college.  At that time sometimes the head becomes too large for the body and the apologies can no longer be easily swept under the rug!  At that time you expect more, you expect the young adult to see more the humor in the parents than the supposed embarrasement.  The apologies at this point are just heartbreaking.

Now did you not know what is a screwdriver?!  Is that why you didn't tell your father; baba aachaar pich gooshti mikhad!  

Everything is sacred

A screw story

Okay since we are talking about parents and children both embarassing each other, I have to share this.

I'm twelve. We have moved to Canada just under a year ago.  My dad, mom and I hardly speak English.  However, I have had the benefit of being exposed to the more colorful vernacular shared by eight graders at my local junior high.  You know the deal? As soon as the new kid arrives, the first words they are taught by their helpful comrades are the most useful swear words and vulgarities.

My dad and I are at home where a handyman has been summoned by my dad to somehow fix something or other in our living room.  The handyman asks my dad innocently if he would have by any chance a certain type of screwdriver that was evidently needed for the task at hand.

My dad, having no idea what the handyman is asking for, and probably wanting him to repeat what he has asked for, repeats phonetically as best as he can muster:

"You wanna screw?"

No answer.  The handyman makes as if he has not heard and continues on his task.  My dad, thinking he is perhaps hard of hearing continues.

"You wanna screw?"

No answer.  But the handyman's ears start turning beet color.

My dad, thinking the handyman is totally deaf:

"You wanna screw?  YOU WANNA SCREW?  YOU WANNA SCREW?"

Now, I think you will admit at this point, someone should have said sorry/excuse me for something to someone at some given point in time. As it was, I retreated shamefully to my room (Can you imagine having to explain that one to either of the parties?) and the handyman left and I don't know what the hell happened to whatever he was trying to fix. 

Faramarz jaan the children are usually one step worse!

It's true that many parents wish for their unruly children to have a child just like themselves!  Problem is their child becomes far worse!

When they finally settle down and have their own family and children, they try their "new" approach to child upbringing, which makes their "modern" children listening to more god awful heavy metal (latest screechings :-), piercings all over the body, black lipstick and nail polish, tatooes, latest exotic drugs, taking showers once a week, possibly child born out of wedlock with dirty diapers all over, no jobs or prospect for one and on and on!

It's more like our saying; until the calf becomes a cow (or bull) the mother's stomach will be full of water! 

Everything is sacred

Words of Wisdom

The best thing that I have heard a parent tell a trouble-maker child is: "I hope that You have a child just like You!"

My parents never told me that but, I once had a nice English teacher for my 8th grade class who had just come from the US. He wanted to treat us in a civilized manner and reason with us. But, all we wanted to do was to make trouble! So, finally one day, at the peak of his frustration, he looked at me and at us and said in a desperate voice, "I hope someday you become a teacher like me and have students like you!"

We laughed at the time because we thought that we had won the battle, but years later, I still feel bad about what I did to him! 

Nikki

For most of us it is all a part of our upbringing. I heard this about the canadians so it is true! I believe it can be chalked up to one's personality for the most part, If you are shy (l know i am) and always in a mood to compromise and coming across as friendly, then the word sorry will be on the tip of your tongue all the time. Conversely, If you are not that shy or somehow you have managed to overcome it, Through necessity or any other means, then i guess, you will Learn to go with the flow. Kinda like When in rome do as the romans do:))

 I agree with what Ananymouse is saying. Correcting your folks or appologizing on their behalf, just becasue they did something that was ouside the boundaries of western way of doing things, the western norm, if you will,  is really stupid and more than just trying to act westernized, it is downright disrespecful...

And as inevitable as it maybe, this art! of arguing back with them,-- I don't think many do it to look more mature or in charge-- But when it happens and for whatever reason, It leaves a real nasty taste in one's mouth... a real ugly feeling.

Good Discussion.

HAHA

I spent the first half of my life saying sorry on behalf of my parents  and the second half (so far) saying sorry on behalf of my children

:-)))

BTW I meant jumping on the dinner table with your "shoes on"!

Niki jaan I think the "agree to disagree" agreement is a civilized way of getting out of trouble or in general disagreements.  In general most of disagreements are the result of differences in "opinions" which means there are actually more ways of seeing things.

We are all raised in different families with different cultures and backgrounds so when we get together and have a long term or serious relationship those "differences" come into play so there is no way out.  We learn to compromise but it doesn't mean we don't like to do things "our way" -- the way we were taught and brought up and feel comfortable with.

Now as far as whatever sorry you have to be pushed to that point by the other party!  You can't simply throw in the towel.  You must have tried the option of throwing in the towel once or twice or more and left with no other option than to give in and ask for mercy!  and at that point that's not even an option anymore!

I've also noticed that many 2nd generations Iranians are quick to apologize for the behavior of their parents to strangers/public.  That's not good, I mean if someone wants to apologize for his/her actions or behavior is one thing but when a younger version apologizes and then chastises you as well, then it is a sense of becoming too westernized, although I'm sure there are better definitions for it. 

Everything is sacred

excuse me vs. sorry

First, I'd like to thank all of you for taking the time to write your comments and sharing your input.  It is greatly appreciated!

Dear MG, the issue of excuse me vs. sorry is very true.  Having lived in Canada for a decade before moving to the States, it was a bit of a joke that Canadians are so overly polite and afraid to step on any toes literally or figuratively, that we almost have a tendency to throw out a preemptive excuse me or sorry, or say so even if we are the ones who have been bumped into or shoved aside!  That being said, after a decade of that, I moved to the asphalt jungle of NYC and you could say that was a rude awakening!  I quickly learned to stifle that habit.

PW you echo very rightly the point made by Flying Solo that once you have made a genuine apology it should be a clean slate, not an endless reminder for years to come ah ha remember when you were wrong that time?  I think as women we need to learn that lesson more than men because we do tend to put things in the Vault, and then bring it out and throw it back in the face of our adversary at the most inopportune time!  Point well taken.

Mouse! As always thanks for putting a humorous spin.  I love your categories! Can I tell you my pet peeve?  Which by the way I am sure I am guilty of myself.  When the person, pushed to the limit and seeing no wiggle room, still stubbornly refusing to say even a "whatever sorry" so they say instead:"Let's agree to disagree."  Hahaha that one KILLS me!

It depends what your definition of the word IS is!

I have not noticed American or Canadians being any different than Iranians in use of the word sorry, sorry!  I think this is a univeral issue and just like husbands and wives argue with each other in all cultures, use of the word sorry is universal to all too.

If anything Americans are hesitant to say sorry because of the worry of admitting guilt which will be proof for a frivilous lawsuit!

Anyway, I think there are several versions of sorry.

Rhetotical sorry = when you ignore the warnings about taking too many Tequila shots and end up jumping on the dinner table and dance while the guests are in the middle of getting their salads, polo and Ghormehsabzi! You can say you're sorry but who will listen or forgive you?!

Whatever sorry = when you reach a dead end debating your point and realize the issue is worse now than it was at the beginning.  So you say the you know what, my baby donkey did not have tail from the beginning, I'm sorry to have even brought it up!  Of course this sorry could escalate to a full battle ... ;-)

Opportunistic sorry = You steal someone else's cab or parking spot and pretend you're in a rush and run away and say sorry!

Real sorry = You trip and fall on someone and say you're sorry.

And I'm sure you can add more.  As far as arguing with your parents and expect them to say they're sorry I think it is a wrong proposition to begin with.  Parents in general are always ahead of their children simply because they've lived longer and been there done that, before we get there.

I know I have argued with mine but for many years I've realized that it doesn't really matter what I say, when I get their age I'll have the same attitudes and someone will tell me the same garbage!

Children think it is a sign of maturity and adulthood when they get to argue with their parents and tell them they're wrong!  From that point on a new chapter starts which in many cases never ends!  It becomes a cycle.

In the end, I don't think it is hard to say you're sorry and I have done it on occasions.  I like to think I don't have to say it much because as a logical and decent person I do things that are norm and if every so often I blow a fuse and say something that I know is wrong, it is only just to say that you're sorry.   

Everything is sacred

I think

...when power struggle is the main concern in the relationship, the word 'sorry' is rarely heard. and power struggle like a never-ending subconscious game takes over the relationship. It takes a mutual change to be ready for 'being sorry' and open to mistakes; otherwise one side looks overly apologetic, while the other party overly righteous. So being open and receptive to the mistakes and avoiding power struggle is a pre-requisite. 

I also think Flying Solo is right that this word (specially in Western culture) is over-used, and sometimes is just a word, not the real feelings involved.

In Iranian culture it seems more complicated. It is important to see the consequence of "being sorry"on other(s): to be bashed endlessly for the admitted mistake, or to be pardoned affectionately? That is very determining!

At the end, I really am not sure if old age plays a significant role in this regard. Isn't the personality a more contributing factor than the age for admitting mistakes? and perhaps for some people (due to cultural expectations) sometimes you really should not be waiting for the word 'sorry' to be articulated; but you can feel it in the manners and body language of the person.  

Sorry vs Excuse me

same meanings basically but two completely different things. Americans and maybe canadians are quick to to sorry, where they should really be saying excuse me. instead of using these two terms intechangeably and thereby giving many of us the wrong impression.

Saying sorry does not necessarily translate to the admission of Guilt, rather is a sign of politeness. I was riding along with my friend the other day and we stopped by the market to pick up a few things, where as i was getting out accidentally hit the driver's side door right next to us and the guy who was loading bags into his car asked me: was there a scratch? and i said I was sorry and that everything was Ok. What i was trying to say was that Hey i made a little oppsie dasy and out of Politeness i am sorry.

My friend's opinion was that I should not have said it since that meant i was admitting that i was guilty. BUt what i should i have said instead? I was trying to politely convey the message that Hey you care is Ok. and By god it was.

many iranians habitually use the word sorry more than we should, i am guilty as charged btw and that is when it becomes kinda self-deprecating. Tried to ditch the habit... Mage misheh ...:))  Sometimes i find myself saying sorry and thank you in a same sentence.!!! what a weirdo na?

Sorry vs Excuse me

same meanings basically but two completely different things. Americans and maybe canadians are quick to to sorry, where they should really be saying excuse me. instead of using these two terms intechangeably and thereby giving many of us the wrong impression.

Saying sorry does not necessarily translate to the admission of Guilt, rather is a sign of politeness. I was riding along with my friend the other day and we stopped by the market to pick up a few things, where as i was getting out accidentally hit the driver's side door right next to us and the guy who was loading bags into his car asked me: was there a scratch? and i said I was sorry and that everything was Ok. What i was trying to say was that Hey i made a little oppsie dasy and out of Politeness i am sorry.

My friend's opinion was that I should not have said it since that meant i was admitting that i was guilty. BUt what i should i have said instead? I was trying to politely convey the message that Hey you care is Ok. and By god it was.

many iranians habitually use the word sorry more than we should, i am guilty as charged btw and that is when it becomes kinda self-deprecating. Tried to ditch the habit... Mage misheh ...:))  Sometimes i find myself saying sorry and thank you in a same sentence.!!! what a weirdo na?

And let's not forget litigating the word sorry!

Interesting point about Americans, Faramarz jan.  While it is true that Americans and Canadians seem to dispense with the word "sorry" almost as a habit rather than something thought out, there is also the opposite end of that spectrum right here.  We live in such a litigious society that everyone is afraid to say sorry lest they be sued. But it would also avoid a lot of lawsuits if people owned up to their responsibility too.

Just an anecdote.  A friend had been horribly injured by her doctor's botched procedure.  But that wasn't the end of it.  The cover up that he resorted to in order to escape culpability and then dragging her through a lawsuit and painful deposition and shame of revealing the extent of her injuries (which were disfiguring) before eventually settling for full amount of insurance policy was really outrageous.  She insisted before signing the settlement agreement that he come to the meeting at the lawyers'office, look her in the eye, and simply tell her "I am sorry." I thought how sad it is we have come to this, litigating the word "sorry."

We Are so Sorry, Uncle Albert

Niki,

Thanks for bringing this subject up. Being genuine about saying sorry is a sign of maturity.

When it comes to saying “I am sorry”, Iranians and Americans are on the two opposite sides of the spectrum! I think that many Americans are too quick to say that they are sorry. And at times it comes across as if they don’t really mean it and want to get it over with and move on.

On the other hand, most Iranians look at saying “I am sorry” as accepting a personal defeat, surrendering and waving the white flag!

Case and point, just look at the discussions on this site. With all the heated arguments about all kinds of different topics under the sun, I have yet to see anybody coming forward and for once say, “You know, I was wrong and you were right. I am sorry!”

Snapping is 'izzz all good',

snipping, I'm not so sure about... D:

"Why do you want to be happy when you could just be normal?"

a little bit of background

Thank you for your comments.  Good point about the generational thing: My mum and dad drive me mad with the fact that they have never apologized for anything... and are PROUD of it! As well as a cultural thing.  It seems in cultures such as Iran, China or other traditional cultures where there is so much emphasis on respect for elders, it's an incomprehensible concept that respect has to be earned no matter what age and that respect means never having to say you're sorry.

As a bit of background to this blog, it all started when I was teaching SweetPea to say "Sorry" when he has done something wrong and his dad told me please don't teach him "THAT word!" said in the most full of contempt tone, like I was trying to teach the F word to our child.

I myself have had no problem saying sorry to my spouse in the many occasions that it was warranted (when I snapped at him because I was moody, when I promised something and did not deliver etc).  Getting him to recognize the same for me has been another story LoL  He still won't say it, but I know he is truly sorry through his actions later.   

Niki jan, you are spot on

I totally agree with you on Iranians' reluctance / resistance to expressing apologies. Heartfelt apologies are even more challenging, especially among our parents' generation. Those ahd e boogh/ antiquated values that you articulated, seem to be set in for Life, right? 

You know what though? To my surprise, when I explain the impact of "proper" apologies to my loved ones, even my mom and aunts in their 80's, they do get it!  The trick is in the tone. And the "broken record" technique of repeating the cause and effect to them in "observational" terms - Not in critical tone. As a might good parent, You do know what I mean. Just the way it works with kids: clear message, non-judgmental, cause & effect based (When you do this, Then that happens). Afterwards, if they show progress, they can be reinforced by you noticing their different attitude and commenting on it.

As or men or women in relationships? I'd say the same techniques as above should work. Otherwise the thick-headed ones are bothered by something else, yek jaaye digeh dard mikoneh, I'd say. 

Feeling sorry

Niki,

It is the sign of true caring when we feel AND offer an apology when we find out that we have hurt another. And if we are truly sorry about something, we will try not to repeat the act, right?  Using sorry as a 'green pass' without making the effort to amend our behavior rings hollow. In my opinion the word is over-used in the wrong context.

The core of your message is absolutely correct. It ought not matter who we have hurt; younger, older, life partner, or co-worker.  It's all about taking responsibility for our actions, and caring what that action has done to the other. 

I had a good chuckle about the 'upper hand' game in marriage, keeping tabs.  Yes - one little word goes a long way to say you care about the other person, even if they have  ticked you off and you them.   And if the person has said they are sorry - then there ought to be a clean slate. That means the infraction should not be stashed away in some deep dark closet as ammo for future face-offs! :)

"I've just had an argument with a wo/man,

when I've left the room, will I still be wrong?"

"Why do you want to be happy when you could just be normal?"