IRAN ZAMIN

Nuri al-aziz and Captain,

by Nousha Arzu on Thu Oct 29, 2009 01:51 AM PDT

Very sorry to get back to you late, but no, aziz, I'm not familiar with the French Iranologist, Henry Corbin; however, I do most sincerely agree with you about Shiite Islam's Zoroastrian influence. In fact, Shiite Islam is, as you know, a hybrid -- concepts such as "Imam Zaman," for example, have their roots in Zoroastrianism. 

Thank you for your comment.

Captain, it's not a scientific question, it's a personal deduction and nothing more, which has been reinforced by a book like "Persian Pilgrimmage" by Afshin Molavi. All I'm saying is that we'll never truly know whether he was a devout shiite Muslim or a shiite like myself (a muslim in name only, one who drinks wine, gambles on occasion, eats pork on occasion, etc.) or whether he practiced the Zoroastrian faith in private.

What we do know for a fact is that he worshipped PRE-Islamic Iran zealously, so who knows? And all the documented evidence that you could present on his behalf as a Shiite Muslim "can," in light of the regular practice of persecution of poets back then, be mere dissimulation, or "lip service," for the sake of artistic creativity and financial success by the author, beholden for his survival to a Muslim master.

All I know is that he rejected the Arabic language fiercly. Who's to say that he didn't also reject the religion of the invading Arabs as well???

 

 

LONG LIVE THE GLORY OF KUROSH 

Notice to SamSamIIII's Shi'ite devotion barometer

by Nur-i-Azal on Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:41 PM PDT

E.G. Browne quotes and translates the following from Ferdowsi in Volume 2 of A Literary History of Persia: From the Earliest Times to Ferdowsi, Cambridge, 1924, pp.136-137 (anyone know where the text of the original Persian can be found?)

 

'They said: "This bard of over-fluent song

Hath loved the Prophet and 'Ali for long."

Yea, when I sing my love for them, I could

Protect from harm a thousand like Mahmud

But can we hope for any noble thing

From a slave's son, e'en were his sire a King?

For had this King aught of nobility

High-throned in honour should I seated be.

But since his sires were not of gentle birth

He hates to hear me praising names of worth.'

Both Ferdowsi and Hafiz

by anonymous111.2 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 08:19 AM PDT

contributed to our shared Iranian culture in their own unique way.  It will be a crime against our heritage to elevate one at the expense of destroying the other.  The works of Hafiz, just as those of Ferdowsi, are testaments to our rich cultural heritage, a heritage that encompasses many influences, both pre and pots Islam.

I just find these arguments to be pointless and divisive.  We can spend our times better in supporting our brothers and sisters in Iran who are struggling to, once again, make history and take their destiny into their own hands.

Shi'ia or not

by capt_ayhab on Wed Oct 28, 2009 07:21 AM PDT

Ms. Rusta, Mr. Nur-i-azal, and Mr. Ahangar

Wonderful citations of the facts, to confront fiction which been claimed by Ms. Arzu.

Point of the matter is, religion that Ferdowsi practiced is absolutely irrelevant to the master piece he has accomplished. Although there no doubt that he in fact was a practicing Shi'a. With the same token Hafez, Saadi, Nezami. What these geniuses left behind is proof of their mastery in the field of literature, linguistics and  philosophy is beyond shadow of any  doubt. To try and discredit one based on the their religious preferences is nothing less than PHOBIA[Note: I did not use RACISM], and totally baseless.

Ms. Rusta

I particularly commend you on your observation of the richness Parsi language has gained by adopting some structures and words from Arabic and Turkic languages. Same evolution in our language is underway at this present generation by adopting words, terminologies from Latin, French and English.

Ms. Arzu

Due respect, when you claim that Hakeem Ferdowsi was pretending to Islam in order to save his skin, do you care to present some valid reference to substantiate this claim? Or is it your personal opinion more or less?

Respectfully

-YT 

Notice

by SamSamIIII on Wed Oct 28, 2009 05:37 AM PDT

 

that my argument is not about him being a Shia or Sunni but Devout Shia . Funny how against all docs available some get to make outlandish claimes. 

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

ROFL, Wackopedia!

by Nur-i-Azal on Wed Oct 28, 2009 04:42 AM PDT

Nousha khanum, I fully concur with your sentiments 110% regarding Wackopedia. I have a long and bitter history myself over there with the ideological cadre of a certain religious organization who claim to have had me banned for life from the place for daring to challenge them on the fictions they peddle there as fact. Quoting Wackopedia re: Ferdowsi's Shi'ism was for SamsamIIII's benefit. Citing A. Shāpūr Shahbāzī's Harvard monograph and critical biography of Ferdowsi was for everyone elses.

Now the claim that Ferdowsi was a closet Zoroastrian dissimulating with Shi'ism is conjectural and cannot be documented. But his Shi'ism can  indeed be documented based on his own statements. I would, however, submit to you that for a figure such as Ferdowsi, and many like him, Shi'ism and Zoroastrianism often functioned as the continuum of one and the same thing.  Are you familiar with the writings of the French Iranologist Henry Corbin?

Ms. Rusta

by Nousha Arzu on Wed Oct 28, 2009 04:19 AM PDT

Your kind sentiments are appreciated, good day to you!

 

LONG LIVE THE GLORY OF KUROSH 

LOL, Wikipedia!

by Nousha Arzu on Wed Oct 28, 2009 04:12 AM PDT

Dear Nuri-al-aziz, are you joking? Since when did Wikipedia become a reputable source of fact? It is more often wrong than right! That was a good one, indeed! And your other citations are paltry and lacking. What we do know, however, is that in the authentic Shahnameh, not the one found in the homes of most pious Muslims, there is a salutation to the Ahura Mazda ("Be nam-e Ahura Mazda").

So, as far as we know, the great Ferdowsi was a devout Zoroastrian, who was forced, at the point of the sword, to pay lip-service to Islam and his Islamic benefactors, like the Sunni Sultan who financed his masterpiece. Numerous Iranian poets were persecuted throughout the midde-east by Muslim fanatics of their day -- Rumi was chased out of Iran and died in present-day Turkey.

Moreover, it is clear that Ferdowsi resented and devoted his life to curbing the influence of the invading bedouin culture and language upon his native Iran. But why does this matter to you so much, whether Ferdowsi was a Muslim or not? We will never know for sure. Isn't it enough that you already own the venerable Hafez, Sadi, Rumi, etc. -- you must also claim Ferdowsi as your own, the man who treasured PRE-Islamic Iran???

 

 

LONG LIVE THE GLORY OF KUROSH 

Ferdowsi is one of the five pillars of Persian literature

by Farah Rusta on Wed Oct 28, 2009 03:57 AM PDT

First I would like to begin by thanking Ms Arzu for this blog as she has raised a number of valid but controvertial points.

I would like to make this clear that the fact the Ferdowsi was a Shiite does not make him any less of a literary giant that he was. Ferdowsi together with Rumi, Saadi, Hafez and Nezami (in no particular order of preference) form the five pillars of our rich poetic literature. His materpiece the Shahnameh is an unrivalled work of literary genuis in which Arabic words are almost non existent. But the modern day Persian is rich because it has admitted and Persianized  tousands of Arabic and Turckic words, without them other masterpiees of Persian literature would not have been created.

We owe Ferdowsi a great debt in reminding us of the power and glory of our ancient past and as it was befitting of such a grand work, it was written in a pure Persian.

FR

For SamsamIIIII: Ferdowsi's Shi'ism

by Nur-i-Azal on Wed Oct 28, 2009 03:05 AM PDT

Ferdowsi was a Shia Muslim, which is apparent from the Shahnameh itself and confirmed by early accounts.[3]

[Wikipedia]

 

In the critical biography of Ferdowsi: 

Ferdowsī: a critical biography By A. Shāpūr Shahbāzī Harvard University, Center for Middle Eastern Studies, 1991.

 

the author confirms Ferdowsi's Shi'ism on pages 3, 49 & 59. Also see the notes referred to on the pages for more extensive explanation. Nuff said!

Nur-i-azal and capt_ayhab

by Kaveh_Ahangar on Tue Oct 27, 2009 06:19 PM PDT

Greatly appreciated your comments.  This discussion started with SamSam nonsensical remarks about Hafez and was continued here by this writer. 

Saadi and Hafez, by introducing the style of "sahl o momtane" saved our poetry from the infertile period of "sabke hendi" and laid the foundation for modern persian that we speak today.  In prose, similar revolution happened centuries later after enghelabe mashrootiyat which attests to the genius of these two great Iranian poets. 

Ferdowsi imported 5000 Persian words & Hafiz imported 5000

by SamSamIIII on Tue Oct 27, 2009 03:19 PM PDT

 

Foreign/Arabic words into the realm of our language.

 

Ms Rusta & others;

What is it folks dont get? .where did I talk about who is more muslim or shiaa(which btw Hafiz & his style of poets are). This is not about the style of poetry or who used more hadith or Kuranic verses which btw in comparison to Ferdowsi is a 1000 fold. It,s about the damage done to Iranian psyche and more important the Persian language, our identity which is a tragedy. now  pls pay attention here because this is the bulk of my argument on language;

Almost 300 yrs prior to Hafiz, Ferdowsi with unimaginable hardship purified, organized and put togetrher a master piece that saved, I repeat saved, I repeat saved Persian language from instinction from becoming yet another Arabic dialect(as it is unfortunatly today). He brought back thousands of instinct Persian words back to life and used those instead of Arabic acronyms in his poetry. Now few centuries passed by and there came  poets such as Hafiz & alike who in total ignorance to Ferdowsi's work re-imported thouands of Arabic words back into the Persian that Ferdowsi so painstakingly tried to save. However If Hafiz work was some obscure poetry it would have been okay but his style was followed and copied by hundreds of shaikh poets like him who screwed Persian even more by importing yet more Arabic words and hence our current Arabo Farsi language which is truly a mere dialect of Arabic . Now for some of you who enjoy his style, kudos to you but lets be factual it,s not about style or scientific work but damage done to our language & identity.

btw Ms Rusta, you are repeating IRI propaganda that Ferdowsi was a devout Shia.He was a Muslim true but His body was not even allowed to be buried in Muslim cemetery of his place of birth by Imams & Muslim clergies who accused him of Zandigh & heresy and folks were forced finally to bury him in his own cottage. Ask Ebi my pal and an Ostaad in the subject if in doubt about my argument.

This is not about

 

Cheers!!! 

 

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

What a Jewel !

by capt_ayhab on Tue Oct 27, 2009 02:35 PM PDT

Ms. Arzu, Although I agree with your rather half baked assertion  of the gift of[Of Heaven - aka Hakeem Ferdowsi], being the  most valuable historical and literary poet of all times who finished the work that was started by  Daqiqi and the profound and lasting affect he had in preserving our heritage and on literary world, BUT.......

What a jewel you are and your company to even dare to come up with an statement that says[In the final analysis, Hafez preaches the ordinary Iranian, who can be truly extraordinary in all fields of life, to quit the good fight, to resign, to be indifferent -- in short, it tells us to be quitters. This is not only anti-Iranian and anti-American, but it is anti-human progress.]

I am wondering, did you manage this eloquence and intellectual[not] finale and FINAL ANALYSIS by yourself or your elementary teacher opened up your eyes to see Hafez as the true evil that he must have been.

For you to be making such an audacious and ignorant remark about Hafez, while the most renowned critiques have this to say about him:

According to Šebli Noʿmāni (V, p. 43), Hafez was the first to extend the range of the gazal, which so far had been mainly devoted to erotic themes, so as to include the treatment of ethical, philosophical, mystical, homiletic and even political subjects, while keeping intact the lyrical idiom of the genre.

//www.iranica.com/newsite/index.isc?Article=h...

Or it takes certain amount of ignorance to analayze Khayyam like you do, KHAYYAM; a mathematician, a philosopher and a poet who is credited with works in the areas of :

ALGEBRA: Who wrote Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra  which laid down the principles of algebra, part of the body of Persian Mathematics that was eventually transmitted to Europe. In particular, he derived general methods for solving cubic equations and even some higher orders.

THEORY OF PARARELLS: Khayyám wrote a book entitled Explanations of the difficulties in the postulates in Euclid's Elements. The book consists of several sections on the parallel postulate (Book I), on the Euclidean definition of ratios and the Anthyphairetic ratio (modern continued fractions) (Book II), and on the multiplication of ratios (Book III).

GEOMETRIC ALGEBRA: In an untitled writing on cubic equations by Khayyám discovered in 20th century where  he writes[Whoever thinks calgebra is a trick in obtaining unknowns has thought it in vain. No attention should be paid to the fact that algebra and geometry are different in appearance. Algebras are geometric facts which are proved by propositions five and six of Book two of Elements.]

Khayyám works on problems of geometric algebra,  particularly geometric solution of cubic equations has been further investigated and extended to degree four equations

BINOMIAL THEOREM AND EXTRACTION OF ROOT: His work in the field of binomial along with certain propositions found in his Algebra book has made
some historians of mathematics believe that Khayyam had indeed a
binomial theorem up to any power.

The Khayyam–Saccheri quadrilateral: was first considered by Omar Khayyam in the late 11th century in Book I of Explanations of the Difficulties in the Postulates of Euclid

HELICENTRIC THEORY:  It is said that Omar Khayyam also estimated and proved to an audience that included the then-prestigious and most respected scholar Imam Ghazali, that the universe is not moving around earth as was believed by all at that time

Source: A. R. Amir-Moez, "A Paper of Omar Khayyám", Scripta Mathematica 26 (1963)

I can go on and on, but I doubt that you can even begin to comprehend as to what these people have contributed to our history and history of the world.

You people are beyond belief, educate yourself before your make a ....... out of yourself.

Regards

-YT 

Please see my comment on the other blog

by Farah Rusta on Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:40 AM PDT

 //iranian.com/main/blog/samsamiiii/hafiz-man-his-so-called-message

FR

I respect and admire both

by IRANdokht on Tue Oct 27, 2009 09:50 AM PDT

Ferdowsi wrote Shahnameh which is totally different than the spiritual poetry of Hafez.

Why do people feel the need to admire one genius at the cost of another? 

People have different tastes and different needs. I love to listen to naghaali from the Shahnameh, I also love to open Divaneh Hafez and read a poem in random. Both were valuable poets of our country and they both deserve our respect.

I wish Iranians wouldn't allow their "hate" for IRI to take over their judgment, their love for our country and her glorious history of arts, and resilience.

IRANdokht

Illuminating

by Behnamjan (not verified) on Thu Feb 18, 2010 08:14 AM PST

 

 Thanks.

Ferdowsi was a devoute Shiite

by Farah Rusta on Tue Oct 27, 2009 07:08 AM PDT

Ms Arzu

While I admire your writings in opposition to the current regime in Iran and share many of your sentiments, you shouldnot lose sight of Ferdowsi's celebrated status as one of the most passionate devotees to Islam and particularly to the Shiite sect. You do not find such deferentially written eulogy in the works of Hafez as was written by Hakim Abol Ghassem Ferdowsi:

ستایش پیغمبر

صلی الله علیه و آله

تو را دانش و دین رهاند درست

درِ رستگاری ببایدَت جست

 

و گر دل نخواهی كه باشد نژند­1

نخواهی كه دائم به وی مستمند

 

به گفتار پیغمبرت راه جوی

دل از تیرگی‌ها بدین آب شوی

 

منم بنده اهل بیت نبی

ستاینده خاك پای وصی 2

 

حكیم این جهان را چو دریا نهاد

برانگیخته موج ازو تند باد

 

چو هفتاد كشتی بر او ساخته3

همه بادبادن‌ها بر افراخته

 

یكی پهن كشتی بسان عروس

بیاراسته همچو چشم عروس

 

محمد(ص) بدو اندرون با علی(ع)

همان اهل بیت نبیّ و ولی

 

خردمند كز دور دریا بدید

كرانه نه پیدا و بن ناپدید

 

بدانست كو موج خواهد زدن

 كس از غرق بیرون نخواهد شدن

 

به دل گفت: اگر با نبی و وصی

شوم غرقه دارم دو یار وفی4

 

همانا كه باشد مرا دستگیر

 خداوند تاج و لوا و سریر

 

خداوندِ جویِ می‌ و انگبین

همان چشمه شیر و ماء معین

 

اگر چشم داری به دیگر سرای

  به نزد نبی و وصی گیر جای

 

گرت زین بد آید گناه من است

چنین است و این دین و راه من است

 

برین زادم و هم برین بگذرم

چنان دان كه خاك پی حیدرم

 

دلت گر به راه خطا مایل است

ترا دشمن اندر جهان خود دل است

 

هرآن كس كه در جانش بغض علی است

 از او زارتر در جهان زار كیست؟

 

نگر تا نداری به بازی جهان

نه برگردی از نیك پی همرهان

reference:

 //www.tebyan.net/index.aspx?pid=24943

FR

Nuri-al-aziz

by Nousha Arzu on Tue Oct 27, 2009 03:43 AM PDT

Firstly, I'm not from "Tehrangelis" -- interesting that like-minded worshippers of post-Islamic Iran of all pedigree always try to put down Iranians who disagree with their "interpretations" as being from an-out-touch place called "Tehrangelis," as if somehow the artificial musings of such people in such a contrary land do not matter or are not as valid as those from Londonistan or Qom, or New York for that matter, which is where I live.

Second, I was around nine years old at the time of the revoution, so kindly park your "blame" elsewhere, as it's the tool and trade of fatalists to blame everyone but themselves. 

Lastly, it's true, those of us with "limited horizons" cannot appreciate the "Mazdaean imagery" and "pre-Islamic ribaldry" characteristic of the poetry of Hafez, specially when set in the realm of "mundane reality" of a bedouin merchant spinning desert fariytales. 

Indeed, some of us rather enjoy our shallow interpretations of "esoteric" points of view vis-a-vis the Quran, and its call for surrender (taslim = Islam) and submission to a foreign belief system. After all, we're from "Tehrangelis." No worries, my blameless compatriot. In due time, as per the genuis of Hafez and Khayam and their bedouin forefathers, God will wash us sinners out to sea, the Pacific that is, to be sure.

LONG LIVE THE GLORY OF KUROSH 

What nonsense!

by Nur-i-Azal on Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:51 AM PDT

Ferdowsi and Hafiz are literary geniuses of different calibers and types. The comparison between the two is as valid as that between apples and bananas.
Secondly, the underlying philosophy of Hafiz is not to quit or be a quitter. Whatever has given you this idea, since it must be the most shallow reading of Hafiz in the entire history of Hafiz-shenasi? Hafiz is speaking about different orders of reality behind the mundane reality of ordinary life. He is actually a poet of engagement not of disengagement. The problem is that most people with limited horizons have no comprehension of the order of engagement Hafiz is calling to.

Third, the poetic tropes and spiritual topography of Hafiz is completely saturated with Mazdaean imagery - as well as those of pre-Islamic ribaldry. Granted the man is commenting on the Qur'an from an esoteric point of view, but the poetic and transdenominational dialogue that Hafiz brings to his commentary and poems is a completely revolutionary act overturning all notions of dogma, orthodoxy and doctrine which religionists of all creeds cling to and are defined by.

The greatest German Romantic poet of all time, Goethe, called Hafiz the greatest poetic genius of humankind!!! Yet North American Tehrangeles Iranians with a penchant for ignorant revisionist and dyostopian views of history are depracting one of the greatest literary treasures of all time. You and your friend Samsam IIII should take your silly ideas to any number of Persian Studies departments such as UCLA, U-Chicago, U-Texas Austin, U-Washington, Columbia, Harvard, Oxford or Cambridge. Put these nonsensical views in front of the Frank Lewis', Julia Meisamis, Hossein Ziais and similar and see for yourselves how far you get and how much laughter you generate directed at your own expense. 

 

Finally, Hafiz is not responsible for the historical catastrophe of 1979! It is your generation who are responsible for committing the greatest single act of national suicide, so point the finger back at yourselves and quit deprecating the greatest poetic genius of all and every time! Also, while you're at it, go broaden your horizons in life a little...