Bahau'llah's "declaration" at Baghdad in 1863 according to ...

NUR's latest exposure - duck and cover.

//iranian.com/main/blog/faryarm/early-heartfelt-message-about-nima-wahid-azal-nur-old-friend

HAIFAN BAHAISM EXPOSED TO THE WORLD, READ ALL ABOUT IT!

//www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Baha%27i_Faith

NUR is finally exposed before all at ....

//iranian.com/main/blog/faryarm/source-watch-0

DETNUR

Your answer same as before...SAVAKi

1) Who are you and what is your real name?

2)  What creed or organization do you belong to?

3) What position do you occupy?

4) Are you now or have you ever worked on behalf of the Baha'i Internet Agency headed by Matthew Weinberg at the Baha'i World Center in Haifa, occupied Palestine?

 5) Why do you see the need in hiding behind a pseudonym and masking your identity?

6) What are your goals to that end?

7) What is your primary motivation in ascertaining logistical information about my group?

8) Are you a sayanim and work for Mossad?

9) Is your organization attempting to manufacture consent through fictitious and exagerrated narratives about persecution in Iran?

10) What would you consider your motivation to that end?

11) Is your organization attempting to foment international discord and lobby for a pre-emptive military strike on Iran?

12) What is your position on the current policy of President Obama in wishing engagement with Iran?

13) Do you believe that Baha'ism should replace the national religion in Iran, and is your organization attempting to replace the mullah's theocracy with a Baha'i theocracy? 

Don't get frustrated. Just answer the questions. Looking in the mirror of your organizational duplicity and Stalinism can't be that bad. Or can it?

See Sourcewatch entry, Baha'i Faith.

NUR-It is now clear that you are ashamed to answer these Qs

1) How many people in your group?

2) Are you a clergyman in this group?

3) How often do you meet?

4) Where do most of these people live?

5) Is this group growing in numbers or dwindling? How do you know?  Any references you can site?

6) What are the goals of this group?

7) How does this group organize itself or does it have a community?

8) Is this group recognized by any organization or civil or international body?

9) Is this group persecuted in Iran or elsewhere? If so, can you reference any evidence to support this claim?

10) What would be considered an achievement for this group?

11) Could you tell us some of the principles of your Faith?

and finally...

12) Why don't you answer these basic questions? 

Even if you don't have a reference to cite, it would good to at least tell us the basis for the answers.

DETNUR

Your answer same as before...

None of your business, SAVAKi... 

Now answer a few of mine,

1) Who are you and what is your real name?

2)  What creed or organization do you belong to?

3) What position do you occupy?

4) Are you now or have you ever worked on behalf of the Baha'i Internet Agency headed by Matthew Weinberg at the Baha'i World Center in Haifa, occupied Palestine?

 5) Why do you see the need in hiding behind a pseudonym and masking your identity?

6) What are your goals to that end?

7) What is your primary motivation in ascertaining logistical information about my group?

8) Are you a sayanim and work for Mossad?

9) Is your organization attempting to manufacture consent through fictitious and exagerrated narratives about persecution in Iran?

10) What would you consider your motivation to that end?

11) Is your organization attempting to foment international discord and lobby for a pre-emptive military strike on Iran?

12) What is your position on the current policy of President Obama in wishing engagement with Iran?

13) Do you believe that Baha'ism should replace the national religion in Iran, and is your organization attempting to replace the mullah's theocracy with a Baha'i theocracy? 

Don't get frustrated. Just answer the questions. Looking in the mirror of your organizational duplicity and Stalinism can't be that bad. Or can it?

See Sourcewatch entry, Baha'i Faith.

NUR - At least you are now responding, next try answering !

1) How many people in your group?

2) Are you a clergyman in this group?

3) How often do you meet?

4) Where do most of these people live?

5) Is this group growing in numbers or dwindling? How do you know?  Any references you can site?

6) What are the goals of this group?

7) How does this group organize itself or does it have a community?

8) Is this group recognized by any organization or civil or international body?

9) Is this group persecuted in Iran or elsewhere? If so, can you reference any evidence to support this claim?

10) What would be considered an achievement for this group?

11) Could you tell us some of the principles of your Faith?

and finally...

12) Why don't you answer these basic questions? 

Even if you don't have a reference to cite, it would good to at least tell us the basis for the answers.

DETNUR

None of your business

Your answer 

413

NUR - just answer these questions...

1) How many people in your group?

2) Are you a clergyman in this group?

3) How often do you meet?

4) Where do most of these people live?

5) Is this group growing in numbers or dwindling?

6) What are the goals of this group?

7) How does this group organize itself or does it have a community?

8) Is this group recognized by any organization or civil or international body?

9) Is this group persecuted in Iran or elsewhere? If so, can you reference any evidence to support this claim?

10) What would be considered an achievement for this group?

11) Could you tell us some of the principles of your Faith?

Don't get frustrated, just answer these questions.  Looking in the mirror can't be that bad.  (or is it?)

DETNUR

E.G. Browne's quote

He said almost the identical thing about Subh-i-Azal, and if one reads between the lines, he was actually ridiculing the whole hollywoodesque farce the Baha'is in Acre put him through to meet their leader. But how about we quote what Mirza Khan Kirmani wrote after his meeting with Husayn 'Ali Nuri. 

413

E.G. Brown, a Cambridge

E.G. Brown, a Cambridge professor, and one of the few Europeans to meet Bahá’u’lláh, penned this description: “The face of him on whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one’s very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow… no need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain!”

Thanks observer

Thank you for that link.  I will include it in all future FAQs. However the followers of the 5 Elders and the Tarbiyyat Bahais appear to be the same group, unless, that is, there has been a further split and division recently amongst that group itself. Thanks again!

413

high observer99

since u r an expert can u help i find how many sects is in eslam and what do they do to each other

There are more than 9 sects

I was searching for the sects of Baha'i faith and found this website :

//www.sectsofbahais.com

Very informative site for all those who want to learn more about Baha'i sects.

Bahai Tactics & Techniques: CAUTION NON-BAHAIS

See,
Baha'is In My Backyard
//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2877478116441126906&hl=en-AU

-

Also see,
Recent court victory by the Orthodox Baha'is (OBF = Orthodox Baha'i Faith), and the suit brought by the Haifan Bahaim organization against them:
//trueseeker.typepad.com/true_seeker/court_case.html
and
//www.truebahai.info/court/139-opinion.pdf  (judge's actual
decision)
Note particularly,
//www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/LF1FFZY0.mp3

-
BAHAI Tactics & Techniques - CAUTION NON-BAHAIS

"Slanderous Vilification" = The Baha'i Technique - Ad Hominem, Libel, Slander, Demonize, Scapegoat, Ostracize, Shun, Banish, Backbite, Defame, Vilify, Discredit, Smear, Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Blackball, Deceive, Coerce, Silence, Harass... etc., etc....  CAUTION NON-BAHAIS

1. As far as possible they hold back from responding
2. Then they claim no knowledge of the given issue by feigning
ignorance
3. After the exposer has exposed they will try to divert to secondary
and totally peripheral and irrelevent side-issues
4. The exposer is then painted as someone with an axe to grind,
biased, deluded (while they, the bahaim, still have not responded to
the main issue exposed)
5. Next they relate mental instability and insanity to the exposer,
i.e. shoot the messenger
6. Then, the last tactic, is to wheel out several dubious personas on
the scene who claim to be neutral non-bahai observers who then begin attacking the exposer as well as the issue exposed and supporting the bahais and their issues as so-called non-bahais

-

Also see S.G. Wilson,
BAHAISM AND RELIGIOUS ASSASSINATION The Muslim World vol. 4, issue 4,
1914
&
BAHAISM AND RELIGIOUS DECEPTION The Muslim World, Volume 5, Issue 2,
1914-1915.
at,
//wahidazal66.googlepages.com/babidocuments%28westernsources%29

And, BAHAISM AND THE BRITISH,
//bahaisandbritannia.googlepages.com/home

==CAUTION NON-BAHAIS==

413

Surely there must be some goodness in your belief that can protect you from this path of lunacy.
Just stick to that goodness and say nothing until the madness of the fullmoon of ego passes.

Hi B

Greetings B,

Your list, based on my description in the other blog, is correct. Fred Glaysher has mapped out 9 Baha'i sects, here , and they are:

 1) Orthodox Bahá'í Faith (the OBF Respondents, following Joel B.
Marangella); //www.rt66.com/~obfusa/council.htm
2) Bahá'ís Under Provisions of the Covenant (the other Respondents,
following Leland Jensen); //www.bupc.org/
3)The Bahá'í Faith or Bahá'í World Faith (the Movant NSA);
4) Tarbiyat Bahá'í Community (formerly known as Orthodox Bahá'ís Under the Regency) (Rex King group); www.tarbiyatcenter.org
5) Bahá'ís Under the living Guardianship
//guardianshipofthebahaifaith.org/index.htm (Donald Harvey as the third
Guardian and Jacques Soghomonian as the fourth Guardian), an organization that is the successor to the Remey NSA; www.Bahai-Guardian.com
6) Reform Baha'is //www.reformbahai.org/
7) Free Baha'is //freebahais.com/freebahai.htm;
8) Unitarian Baha'is
//members.tripod.com/ninetin/abdulbaha/contents.htm
9) John Carre (followers of Alif a Third Manifestation of God - the third letter of the Greatest Name) //www.metavergence.com/john/ "
For those unfamiliar with the Haifan nsa's attempt to deprive other Bahais of their first amendment rights of liberty and freedom of religious conviction, I urge you to read the documents involved on both sides at //www.truebahai.com/court/ "

But he doesn't include the Unenrolled/Liberal Baha'is or the Caravan group/New History Society Baha'is, i.e. the followers of Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Julie Chanler. There are also the Behaists, the group originally formed by Ibrahim George Kheyrullah, but I am not sure they still exist. They might exist in small pockets somewhere. I haven't run into them. So that gives us roughly 11-12. The group being persecuted in Iran by the mullahs are the UHJ Haifan Baha'is.

The Bayanis are, as I said elsewhere, what are known as the Azalis. We are not Baha'is at all since we do not believe Baha'ism and its founder Baha'u'llah are legitimate. We hold Mirza Yahya Nuri Subh-i-Azal (d. 1912) to be the Mirror (mirat) and successor of the Point (nuqta) Siyyid 'Ali Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab (d. 1850), whom we call His Holiness the Supreme (Hazrat-i-A'la) and His Holiness the Primal Point (Hazrat-i-Nuqta-i-Ula). We call ourselves Bayani because the Holy book of our religion is the Bayan, which you can peruse here. Baha'u'llah, the founder of Baha'ism, basically founded his religion by usurping the authority of Subh-i-Azal and having the Bayani opposition murdered and assassinated. Subsequently the Baha'is have gone on to completely re-write and whitewash their history and ours, i.e. pak-sazi-i-tarikh, and basically lie and defame us and our holy figures publically in print.

Now as for the persecution of the Iranian Baha'is, I agree that persecution of anyone based on their personal beliefs regarding God and the bigger picture is fundamentally wrong. One of the ordinances enunciated in the Bayan by the Bab is that no one should be persecuted for their religion. But I do not believe that the situation of the Baha'is in Iran is exactly a mere religious issue or as simple as they've portrayed it. The mullahs are a crafty lot of (haramzadeh) politicians and they have had to realize over the years that in order to survive they're going to have to give and take. Under the presidencies of Rafsanjani and Khatami the Baha'i community was pretty much left alone and it briefly thrived somewhat,  provided it was not proseltyzing or involving itself in activities construed as political and against the interests of the regime. While the Haifan Baha'is say they are not political or engage in partisan politics, that is exactly what they have done. They have used Western human rights organizations as a political tool for self-relevance and propaganda. They have exagerrated their condition under the regime, even claiming that both the regime as well as the mainstream society of Iran has engaged in genocide against them - which an utter lie.  

Note as well that the Haifan Baha'i organization has maintained very close active relations with the foreign policies of the United States government - especially under the former Bush administration - and the state of Israel. For example, on the eve of the invasion of Iraq, one of the UN weapons inspectors - who later turned out to have embellished and lied on the reports about Saddam's WMDs - was a British Baha'i by the name of David Kelly. His partner in the UN weapons inspection regime was an Arab-American Baha'i by the name of Mia Pederson Sadat, who later turned out to have been a spy for the Pentagon. If you recall, David Kelly was found dead not too long after the invasion of Iraq, and there are still questions hanging over his claimed "suicide."

Progressive and left-wing Washington lobbyists I know personally have shown and proven to me that a big Baha'i contingency was close to the office of former VP Dick Cheney and that they were actively lobbying the former Bush administration to initiate a preemptive war against Iran. In late 2004/2005 the regime actually arrested two Western Baha'i missionaries who had come to Iran under the cover of tourism but were really engaging in espionage. There are other examples which can be cited.

Now if the issue was all about religion and beliefs, and the free exercise thereof, that would be fine. But the Haifan Baha'i organization is outright after supreme political power and is trying to weasel and manipulate its way into that by any/all means necessary.  On and off the record they have claimed for years that Iran will be made into the first Baha'i state; and a Baha'i state in Iran or elsewhere under the Baha'i administrative order system would be a complete and total Stalinist totalitarian nightmare. Add to that the fact that Baha'ism does not exactly uphold democracy, pluralism and absolute freedom of conscience, and the fact that they openly stand for World Government and New World Order, and they begin to appear as less and less benign and actually quite insidiously sinister.

Currently because they have spent millions and millions of dollars on advertising campaigns, not to mention made outright political alliances with Western governments, powerful foundations and think-tanks, they have managed to present themselves to the mainstream as victims and an aggrieved party. But they are not. They regularly persecute all their critics and dissidents, sometimes in outright criminal ways, and the factuality of many of the claims they make about the persecution they do suffer under the mullahs is questionable.

 I have no problem with rank and file religious Baha'is, especially the Iranians - because I believe (nay, I know for a fact) that they are actually being selfishly used by the non-Iranian Baha'i dominated administration for its own purposes. This is why I am out to stop the Haifan Baha'i political apparatus and its administration, i.e. the tashkilat, and neutralize its propaganda, since we are dealing with an extremely dangerous fascist organization whose ultimate agenda of World Government, New World Order and world domination poses a real and present danger to the whole planet. The Iranians in this organization are largely patsies and generally unaware of what is realy going or who the real actors and leash-holders of their organization really are. I feel for them, but they are going to have to wake up and make a choice when they finally do!  If there had been someone as determined and vocal as me back in the 1960s and 1970s regarding Khomeini and his goons, perhaps there would not be an Islamic republic right now. Think about that!

That said, I should also state that I am not interested in proseltyzing or wishing to convert anyone to my adopted religion of the Bayan, so this is not a religious or sectarian issue here. But I am here to fight to have the Bayan and its history correctly represented and freed from the lies, whitewash and libel the Baha'is have subjected it to.

We Bayanis have as much right to exist as anyone else, and we especially have the right to be treated with respect in regard to our own holy figures, beliefs, sites and books without interference. And the 140+ years of relentless persecution we have suffered at the hands of the Baha'is  must be addressed and redressed. If people are going to be consistent about advocating for the plight of the Baha'is in Iran, which they should, then they should also consider advocacy on behalf of the rights of ex-Baha'is, Baha'i critics and Bayanis alike against the Baha'is. You cannot be selective or cynical about human rights, as many people have unfortunately become these days. Either human rights is universal or it is not, and if it is not, then groups like the Haifan Baha'is ought not to cry foul and launch multi-million dollar media campaigns as the rights of their community are trampled in Iran when elsewhere they are not remotely prepared to respect the rights of others. 

413

Oh and I forgot ...

Personally I don't believe the preachings and the holier than thou attitudes that I see around. For example Bahaullah knew about technology and wireless access and all that back when he was alive and had predicted it! Look at this blog and exchanges between Bahaullah and the blogger, you have to scroll down to see the beginning of the exchanges.

//iranian.com/main/blog/faryarm/making-se...

Now that IS funny -- the right word!

NUR is this summary correct?

This is the summary I gathered from your you, is this about right, any more?

1. Haifan Bahai's (UHJ)
2. Orthodox Baha'is (Effenddi 1957)
2.a. Orthodox Baha'is (Marangella)
2.b. Orthodox Bahais (Soghomonian)
2.c. Orthodox Bahais (Jensen)
3. Tarbiyyat Bahais
4. Unitarian Bahais
5. Reform Baha'is (Glaysher's)
6. Unenrolled/Liberal Bahais

NUR now some questions

Which sect are the Bahais in Iran? I don't think they know or are interested in all of this. I think they're having difficulty being a simple Bahai, much less different sects.

First of all before I go on I want to say that I believe mistreatment of Bahais in Iran is completely wrong and they should be able to practice their religion. Many human rights violations happen in Iran and this is one of them which should be stopped.

Now having said that I know next to nothing about Bahais. I know that Muslims don't like Bahaullah to have said he is a messenger of god because they believe Muhammad was the last messenger of god.

I do know that there are many followers outside Iran and here in America and they don't necessarily follow what Bahais in Iran follow. It seems they are more like sufis and hippies, for a lack of a better word.

I don't believe in any present day messiah. I don't believe in any old day messiah either but I can understand why messiahs appeared and why people have religions and so forth and I respect them and think they should continue practicing their religionS.

Now there are many many present day messiahs in some American states. Many of them are in Utah, Texas, New Mexico and other western states. There are polygamies and when you talk to their followers they say pretty much the same things and act like they've seen ghosts while their holy father has sex with underaged girls and multiple wives, etc.

So basically I'm thinking Bahai as a faith is ok but present days "guardians" and so forth are kinda "funny", again for lack of a better word. It is still ok if people still want to practice it like there are hundreds of religions/factions in America and they're ok as long as they are not committing crimes like abusing children.

I also don't know who Bayani is. Bottom line, you still need to make it simple for us. The whole story is like a novel and it is fine but simpler as you go along please.

NUR a summary

NUR I read your response in the other blog and thought to respond here since this one is newer. Based on what you said below are what I gathered are the different factions. Please add and/or correct as necessary.

1. Haifan Bahai's (UHJ)
2. Orthodox Baha'is (Effenddi 1957)
2.a. Orthodox Baha'is (Marangella)
2.b. Orthodox Bahais (Soghomonian)
2.c. Orthodox Bahais (Jensen)
3. Tarbiyyat Baha'is
4. Unitarian Baha'is
5. Reform Baha'is (Glaysher's)
6. Unenrolled/Liberal Baha'is

You said something about 11 or 12 but above is all I could gather.