A Theocratic Baha'i State in Iran?

I am not sure why there are

I am not sure why there are general allegations made by some in the blogspot against a whole faith community (the Baha'is) that they want to "come to power" and then "create enemies of the state". Commentators should stick to rational discourse and use specific examples of allegations (if any). It is clear that practising the Baha'i Faith according to its teachings would deny the possibility of seeking wordly power or seeing their fellow humans as anything but brothers and sisters in one human family (see www.bahai.org).

More on NUR's torrid past ...

//iranian.com/main/blog/faryarm/early-heartfelt-message-about-nima-wahid-azal-nur-old-friend

Haifan Bahaism's exposure to the world as a dangerous NWO cult!

//www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Baha%27i_Faith

NUR's coming out of the closet is not a pretty sight but ...

here it is.

//iranian.com/main/blog/faryarm/source-watch-0

DETNUR

Umm, what distortion?

What distortion, Sen? I quoted Faryarm verbatim without omitting a single item of what he said.

And why do you continue this liberal obscurantist charade of yours? Husayn 'Ali Nari, his son and great grandson were all three dogged Theocrats, however much you try to obscure the matter. If you knew Persian and Arabic properly, you would know it too...

This is just what has happened in this Blog: enemies are attempting to find some gullible souls they can trick into thinking that the Bahais are planning to set up a world theocratic state.

Because that is precisely what the UHJ is aiming to do. Faryarm is merely speaking the agenda, SPIRITUAL CONQUEST OF THE PLANET and all... 

413

Bahai / Babi theocracy ?

Faryarm said:

"The recognition of Bahais under a future, fair and just Iranian Constitution does not mean the adoption of the Bahai Faith as a State Religion. It simply means  people may practice freely, whatever religion or idealogy."

That's clear enough, despite the distortions of his meanings that Nur has tried. "A Theocratic Baha'i State in Iran?" - no, never, because the Bahai scriptures are emphatically opposed to it:

Shoghi Effendi wrote:

"Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries." ( The World Order of Baha'u'llah 66.)

Abdu'l-Baha wrote:

"Should they place in the arena the crown of the government of the whole world, and invite each one of us to accept it, undoubtedly we shall not condescend, and shall refuse to accept it." ( Tablets of the Divine Plan 51)

and

"The signature of that meeting should be the Spiritual Gathering (House of Spirituality) and the wisdom therein is that hereafter the government should not infer from the term "House of Justice" that a court is signified, that it is connected with political affairs, or that **at any time it will interfere with governmental affairs.** Hereafter, enemies will be many. They would use this subject as a cause for disturbing the mind of the government and confusing the thoughts of the public." (Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha Abbas vol. 1, page 5, also printed with minor editorial changes in Baha'i World Faith 405). 

This is just what has happened in this Blog: enemies are attempting to find some gullible souls they can trick into thinking that the Bahais are planning to set up a world theocratic state.

Abdu'l-Baha complains: 

"One of their many calumnies was that this servant had raised aloft a banner in this city, had summoned the people together under it, had established a new sovereignty for himself, ... and, God forbid, had purposed to cause the gravest breach in the mighty power of the Crown.

May the Lord protect us from such atrocious falsehoods! According to the direct and sacred command of God ... We must obey and be the well-wishers of the governments of the land, regard disloyalty unto a just king as disloyalty to God Himself and wishing evil to the government a transgression of the Cause of God. With these final and decisive words, how can it be that these imprisoned ones should indulge in such vain fancies; incarcerated, how could they show forth such disloyalty!" (Will and Testament, pages 7-8)

In the Lawh-e Ashraf, Baha'u'llah writes:

"The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth. From the beginning that hath no beginning the ensign proclaiming the words "He doeth whatsoever He willeth" hath been unfurled in all its splendor before His Manifestation. What mankind needeth in this day is obedience unto them that are in authority, and a faithful adherence to the cord of wisdom. The instruments which are essential to the immediate protection, the security and assurance of the human race have been entrusted to the hands, and lie in the grasp, of the governors of human society. This is the wish of God and His decree.... ." (Gleanings, CII 206-7)

and in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf:

Every nation must have a high regard for the position of its sovereign, must be submissive unto him, must carry out his behests, and hold fast his authority. The sovereigns of the earth have been and are the manifestations of the power, the grandeur and the majesty of God. This Wronged One hath at no time dealt deceitfully with anyone. Every one is well aware of this, and beareth witness unto it. Regard for the rank of sovereigns is divinely ordained, as is clearly attested by the words of the Prophets of God and His chosen ones. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) -- may peace be upon Him -- was asked: "O Spirit of God! Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not?" And He made reply: "Yea, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things  90  that are God's." He forbade it not. These two sayings are, in the estimation of men of insight, one and the same, for if that which belonged to Caesar had not come from God, He would have forbidden it. And likewise in the sacred verse: "Obey God and obey the Apostle, and those among you invested with authority." By "those invested with authority" is meant primarily and more especially the Imams -- the blessings of God rest upon them! They, verily, are the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments. Secondarily these words refer unto the kings and rulers -- those through the brightness of whose justice the horizons of the world are resplendent and luminous. We fain would hope that His Majesty the Shah will shine forth with a light of justice whose radiance will envelop all the kindreds of the earth. It is incumbent upon every one to beseech the one true God on his behalf for that which is meet and seemly in this day.
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 89)

As for Iran, the Guardian (Shoghi Effendi) writes:

"...in the slow and hidden process of secularisation invading many a Government department under the courageous guidance of the Governors of outlying provinces -- in all of these a discerning eye can easily discover the symptoms that augur well for a future that is sure to witness the formal and complete separation of Church and State."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, p. 76)

I do not think there is a difference between true Babis and Bahais with respect to accepting the legitimacy of civil government. Abdu'l-baha (who knew some of the participants personally) wrote:

"But the Bábí chiefs composed treatises ... they regarded interpretation as the truth of revelation and the essence of true exegesis: thus, for instance, they interpreted the sovereignty of the Qá'im as a mystical sovereignty, and His conquests as conquests of the cities of hearts, adducing in support of this the meekness and defeat of the Chief of Martyrs (may the life of all being be a sacrifice for him). For he was the true manifestation of the blessed verse "And verily our host shall overcome for them,"* yet, notwithstanding this, he quaffed the cup of martyrdom ..."
(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 17)

In hist history of the period, Shoghi Effendi writes:

"Mulla Husayn [the babi leader] pleaded with the Prince, and the formal assurance he gave him, disclaiming, in no uncertain terms, any intention on his part or that of his fellow-disciples of usurping the authority of the Shah.."
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 39)

"... a similar categorical repudiation, on the part of the Bábís, of any intention of interfering with the civil jurisdiction of the realm, or of undermining the legitimate authority of its sovereign."
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 42)

and says that

"Bahá'u'lláh, Who Himself was an active figure in those days and was regarded one of the leading exponents of the Faith of the Báb, states clearly His views in the Íqán that His conception of the sovereignty of the Promised Qá'im was purely a spiritual one, and not a material or political one...
(Shoghi Effendi, The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, p. 425)

God, verily, hath prescribed to thee [the Shah] to submit unto Him Who is His Remembrance, and unto His Cause, and to subdue, with the truth and by His leave, the countries, for in this world **thou hast been mercifully invested with sovereignty,** and wilt, in the next, dwell, nigh unto the Seat of Holiness, with the inmates of the Paradise of His good-pleasure...
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 42)

"I have no desire to seize thy property, even to the extent of a grain of mustard, nor do I wish to occupy thy position."
(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, letter to Muhammad Shah p. 26)

----

What I can do, is keep my arm
from bringing others any harm.
How can I give the enviers ease?
They are themselves their own disease.
(Sa'di, Gulestan 1:5)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Email: Sen.Sonja[at]Casema.

Bokhor Ash/Eat Stew! The Anti-NWO Liberation Army is here!

Your One World Government will come over the dead bodies of hundreds of millions who will take up arms and violently resist you and your satanic masters to the last man, woman and child!

You people think you have it bad in Iran now. Just wait to see what happens if you try this reckless gamble of trying to bring your antichristic-satanic One World Government to fruition. You will have Christian, Jew, Muslim, atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Bayani, black, white, red, yellow all unified and ranged against you to dispatch you fascists over to your master in hell/jahanam!

The Anti-New World Order Liberation Army (ANWOLA) is here! 

413

Sound advice to stay away

Sound advice to stay away from insincere or corrupted souls. Something you dad would tell you!

Mohammad says you should not take christians or Jews as your friends not to mention the violence against others.
Now where is hate mongering?
You will not see the day you so love to see. Its over for your clan.
The One World Government is coming and is going to put you out of business.
I here them say the Law is coming.

NUR-It is now clear that you are ashamed to answer these Qs

1) How many people in your group?

2) Are you a clergyman in this group?

3) How often do you meet?

4) Where do most of these people live?

5) Is this group growing in numbers or dwindling? How do you know?  Any references you can site?

6) What are the goals of this group?

7) How does this group organize itself or does it have a community?

8) Is this group recognized by any organization or civil or international body?

9) Is this group persecuted in Iran or elsewhere? If so, can you reference any evidence to support this claim?

10) What would be considered an achievement for this group?

11) Could you tell us some of the principles of your Faith?

and finally...

12) Why don't you answer these basic questions? 

Even if you don't have a reference to cite, it would good to at least tell us the basis for the answers.

DETNUR

Speaking of hate mongering...

28 February 2008

To All National Spiritual Assemblies

Dear Bahá'í Friends,

We have been requested by the World Centre to alert you to the current activities of the Covenant-breaker Martin Lavallee on Facebook.com. This individual administers the "Orthodox Bahá'is" page on Facebook and also has a personal page on the site. There have been recent instances where Bahá'í youth with accounts on Facebook have unwittingly accepted invitations from Lavallee to be a "friend" or to become "members" of the Covenant-breaker page. Further, as a consequence of the Facebook networking scheme, if an individual accepts a direct invitation from Lavallee or any other member of his group, the "Friends" list (with e-mail addresses) of that individual becomes exposed. In this way, those with insincere intentions have the potential to directly contact an increasing number of Bahá'is, interactions that could pose a threat to the spiritual well-being of youth and other believers who are not deepened in the Covenant.

Each National Assembly will need to determine the necessity and most appropriate manner of discreetly informing believers of this situation in consultation and with the assistance of the Counsellors. In doing so it will of course be important to avoid creating undue anxiety or curiosity about the nature of Covenant-breaker material on the Internet..

It is our intention to provide more general guidance in the near future about how online social networks can be constructively and safely used by Bahá'ís.

With loving greetings,

Matt Weinberg Program Director Bahá'í Internet Agency

cc: Members of the Continental Boards of Counsellors

more misdirection to grab attention

where does recognition so you are not persecuted just for your religious believes meant establishing a government or estate?
what kind of a desperate IRI propaganda is this?
and please tell me all you people are smart enough to know that Sofia and NUR are the same.
I guess he is so lonely and desperate and bitter he tries to have a conversation with himself these days.
that is just so pathetic and sad.

NUR and Sophia

Shame on you two --you hate mongers-- yes Sophia you are a hate monger too just like your master NUR. Sophia please tell us what you believe in are you Azali too? Now you heard it from Faryar what he meant so you both need to apologize to him if you are fair minded. I don't think so!!!

NUR - Just try answering these questions for a change!

1) How many people in your group?

2) Are you a clergyman in this group?

3) How often do you meet?

4) Where do most of these people live?

5) Is this group growing in numbers or dwindling? How do you know?  Any references you can site?

6) What are the goals of this group?

7) How does this group organize itself or does it have a community?

8) Is this group recognized by any organization or civil or international body?

9) Is this group persecuted in Iran or elsewhere? If so, can you reference any evidence to support this claim?

10) What would be considered an achievement for this group?

11) Could you tell us some of the principles of your Faith?

and finally...

12) Why don't you answer these basic questions? 

Even if you don't have a reference to cite, it would good to at least tell us the basis for the answers.

DETNUR

"Theocratic Bahai State":Only in Anti Bahai, Agitator's Mind.

"Theocratic State"; Only in Anti Bahai, Agitator's Mind.

The recognition of Bahais under a future, fair and just Iranian Constitution does not mean the adoption of the Bahai Faith as a State Religion.

It simply means  people may practice freely, whatever religion or idealogy.

 As For Iran, its immediate and foreseeable future, I (faryarm) do believe that one day The Bahai Faith will be recognised in Iran; when Iranians will be free to choose and practice their faith freely. Whether The people of Iran will choose to accept Baha’u’llah  and his teachings as Unifying principles, The Answer will depend on, and I reiterate, on the  individual decision of every single iranian.

A decison solely based on a fundamental Bahai Principle of personal search without the interference of a third party.

"A Theocratic Baha'i State in Iran" only exists in the mind of Agitators who are trying so desperartely to put down the Bahai Faith by making such outrageous and  incendiary remarks.

Faryarm 

Iran now and in the future must abide by international law

"What will happen to those who wish to continue to practice Islam, Sufism, Bayan, or any other spiritual practice?"
Nothing, they just wont be able to marry minors, beat their wives, stone, amputate etc. This will be the state of the world soon not a Bahai state.
"What about those people who continue to believe that the version of Baha'i history that has been constructed is full of lies and fabrications, and oppose any authority and legitimacy it may claim?"
As with any other dispute they'll have to act with civility, much like the Jewish who dont see Christ as Massaya or the Christian who see Mohammad PBUH as a false prophet yet they are born and live in Islamic countries.
"Are you out of your mind"? You wont be able to say this to a judge.
"...authoritarian nightmare of epic proportions".
Nothing will come close to the past 1400 years.
You can still have jamkaran and pray there as much as you want.

Baha'i state in Iran

Paul Hammond? You sound exactly like a person who posts on Talk Religion Bahai'i. Regardless, no amount of waving of the hand or propagandist  equivocation will dilute the suggestion that the Baha'is are aiming create a Baha’I state in Iran, and they wiil then come after their political enemies, as suggested by Farayam.Keep using the phrase "hate monger" as often as you like. If you wish,  a meticuluoussentence- by-sentence deconstruction and analyses of what Faryman has said could be presented. Raising this kind of hubris is comical in a way, as it makes you look just as bad as the IRI regime  you so weakly claim every critic of the Baha'i belongs to. And by the way, I don’t work by the principle of puppetry, like the Baha'i Internet Agency does, Paul. 

where did you have this conversation?

I wonder if faryarm agrees with your retelling of this story.

i am curious.

NUR and Sophia

You two (NUR and Sophia) are something else. I read what Frayar said about future of Baha'is in Iran and did not come up with the same conclusion as you two hate mongers and anti Baha'i propagandist came up with. He is not talking about Baha'is taking over the government. Nur you are worse than evil mullahs of IR --get a life-- don't you have nothing else to do? Shame on you and your puppet Sophia. Keep showing your true face NUR.

Wow- quite a stunning admission!

"As For Iran, I do believe that One day The Bahai Faith will be recognised in Iran; when Iranians will be free to choose and practice their faith freely. Whether The people of Iran will choose to accept Baha’u’llah  and his teachings as The Answer will depend on an absolutely free and unfettered personal search and investigation.

I also believe the inevitible Mullahs’/Azali/Bayani Nightmare  will come to pass, as  the people of Iran will soon give recognition to the Bahais for their longstanding and steadfast stand on Principle and Belief against the brutal persecution of the backward and corrupt Shia establishment, along with the machinations of Azali/Bayanis during the life of Baha’u’llah and Abdul-Baha.""

So this "free and independent investigation"- what will happen to the people who CHOOSE not to accept the Baha'is? What will happen to those who wish to continue to practice Islam, Sufism, Bayan, or any other spiritual practice? What about those people who continue to believe that the version of Baha'i history that has been constructed is full of lies and fabrications, and oppose any authority and legitimacy it may claim? And what room in this "free and unfettered investigation" will there be the kind of valid historical and documentary material that Nur has presented and you keep calling lies? I cannot believe what I am hearing you say- though it is subtle, and communicated in the language of propaganda. It's basically "When Baha'is come to power, you'll be free to practice what you believe, but if you believe or practice x,y or z you'll be considered an enemy of the State". And you are putting the Bayani's alongside the Mullahs as you future enemies? Are you out of your mind? I'm sure a lot of people share similar feelings about the current regime, but replacing it with the veiled totalitarian nonsense you,Faryam, and the Haifan Baha'i organization at large is peddling would be an authoritarian nightmare of epic proportions.