Fighting Words

Doostan

Bijan khan, many thanks for the kind words, but am sure we will disagree on some things to come :)

mostafa khan: totally agree with you that khomeini has to be de-constructed. far too many people still revere that false prophet. outside iran too, unfortunately.

Onlyiran: very well put. we must also take into account the positive influence of globalisation in all this. it is a reason why the IRI is so obsessed with it. they understand its force.

ahmed khan: re. your last post to Onlyiran: i think there is a major fissure in iranian society between the traditionalists and the modernists. this is the real conflict that came out at the last election, from the grassroots to the pinnacle of power. a growing faction of the traditionalists are moving into the secular camp because they see the value of moving with the times. religions tend to do that. they do not stay the same, and their laws and rules change accordingly. there are many non-muslims who see islam as static. that is simply misguided. the current version we have in power is a self-contradictory cocktail of nationalism and religiosity, with the latter destined to lose. nationalism has subsumed religion already in a way, and landed it in the centre of state power. this harms religion, necessarily. it changes from a spiritual mode of living to one of outward symbolism for public consumption (beards, chadors, friday prayers leading to jobs, hypocrisy, influence and money). islam has been corrupted. it is likely to be pushed back into the private sphere, inshallah! :)

OnlyIran

Thank you for responding to my post.

How long is a piece of rope?

Human beings have shown in all corners of the world a propensity for evolution. A system in place today is no guarantee that it will remain the same regardless of place or time, especially if such a system is not based on open justice for all. Unjust systems are the ones to fall first.

In Iran this current system has had 30 years. This is a very short time given the history of that land. It is bound to change and it will. What replaces it, is the choice and the will of those who live in Iran.

Sarnevesht har melti be' dast millatash ast.

I believe the move will be towards a give and take sort of religious system. This will eventually lead to a lesser religious involvement and eventually to a system where human justice becomes the focal force is guiding the system. Those who are religiously inclined will not feel marginalised in such a system, since by then their view of religion will have evolved to accommodate such a system pretty much as we see in most Christian Europe as opposed to US.

You can take religion out of government but you can not take the governor out of religion. Still, I see Iranians as a collective people who are smart enough to see through such an evolution much sooner than what we think.

Sadly humans will always be open to corruption in whatever system and whatever religion. Here in New Zealand where I live, there is far less corruption than most Western countries. If any politician should ever be seen to be corrupt, very quickly he or she falls from the grace. One was imprisoned recently for bribery. This is fairly rare in NZ.

I do agree that religion has no place in government. It is a personal thing. At the end of the day it is our relationship with others which determines our conduct in society.

I also believe that faith in any form can be a source of inspiration for good as has been in most societies where arts, science and literature has flourished, Islam included. Sadly religion has ben abused for personal interest. Fear has been used as an instrument of control and the masses have fallen for such, especially in the Muslim world. This will continue for as long as we see ourselves separate from the diety that we supposedly worship.

Until such time that we see ourselves separate from the divine, we will suffer the consequences. Only when we see each other as a face of the divine that we begin to treat each as humans and worthy of respect. We don't even have to believe in a deity to be as such.End of religion and the birth of human as intended.

Salamati and pardon the carry on but?!! Have faith..

In yourself and other fellow humans.

Ahmed from Bahrain

Ahmad

I think that the point of your commentg is well taken.  You're talking about a secular governance of a Muslim country.  That has been done and, of course, it is taking place in avrious parts of the world.  The challenge is not bringing about such a system, but rather maintaining it, and institutionalizing it to the extent that there is no danger of a "popular" religious based takeover.  That challenge requires reducing, or eradicating political religion, not just from the government, but from popular culture. 

VILDEMOSE, YOU SAID...

"I live in a secular society like America and I don't like bars and alcohol and I' am hardly religious.

Secularism doesn't mean opening up bars or strip joints. "

Then, you are kidding yourself - you ARE religious, but apparently have adapted (more like forced yourself) to live in the West.

You, sir, are one of the reasons that it so hard to achieve TRUE secularism in places like Iran.

________________

PUT IRAN FIRST 

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A very good question

Perhaps an open and honest referendum will put paid to all such wandering.

I lived in Malaysia for many years. They seem to have it fairly reasonable given the various faiths in their communities. Sure it is far from perfect but they have bars, night clubs and mosques. Majority are fairly religious but one can buy alcohol freely in supermarkets - not that I think that is a barometer for measuring a civilised society..

Their system has it faults but it beats any other system in any Islamic country short of perhaps Turkey or Lebanon. Morocco and Tunisia are fairly reasonable but again all these countries have major corruption problems.

I believe for Iran a referendum would be a good start. From my few travels to Iran, I think Iranians are fairly open people despite their Islamic faith, especially the youth who encompass majority of population.

People of any kind need some direction and education as to the various forms of governments available to them. In other words, give them well-explained options and soon they will make the right choices.

We often fall into the trap by thinking that because we live in Western style democracies that we know more than those who live in villages in Iran or any other developing country.

Human being have simple needs. Once those are truly nurtured there is immense potential for creativity and growth. With a steep history and rich culture, Persians of all colours have it in them to excel given the right environment.

Ahmed from Bahrain

WOW!!!!

What a great collection of comments everyone.  Thank you all, and I MEAN IT.  I'm glad to see all this positive contribution to a question that I have pondered about for a long time.  Again, all the comments are great, but unfortunately, I only have the time to respond to a couple of the ones that I have not so far addressed.

benross: as to the first part of your comment, you are correct.  Advocay of secularism should not take a back seat to building an audience for acceptance of it.  The good news is that I think the Iranian society is evolving in "number" terms as well, as Louie points out.  The newer generation is pretty information savvy, but still, I see it at somewhat of an uphill struggle, or at least a struggle to maintain the majority, given the government's overwhelming propaganda advantage. 

As to your second part, you are correct in saying that "[Iran] also has a century of social struggle toward a -not even now well understood- modernity".  The concept is not well understood because of the fact that for that past century there have been many interests, both foreign--but mainly domestic, who have had a tremendous interest in not wanting it to be understood.  Be it reactionary monarchy, reactionary religious elite or the reactionary left, all those players have had an interest in defining "democracy" on their terms, which almost always has given it an upside down meaning.  But to their credit, the people of Iran have managed to extrapolate a general understaning of it from all the background noise, and that should be the starting point.

Niloufar.  You are absolutely right about the Safavids and Reza Shah's efforts to copy Ataturk.  I was actually going to mention Ataturk and Reza Shah in the blog, but I thought that it would take the focus away from the point that I was trying to make.

The way I see it, the Safavids, in their zeal to consolidate power through their virtual invention of modern political Shiism (to counter the Turks' influence), which entailed highly effective neighborhood by neighborhood insertion of Shia akhoonds within every single community across Iran, created a dynamic in which people's everyday lives depended on, and was watched over by, the country's clerical class.  In a way, they created the infrastructure that was needed for a political theocracy that we see in effect today.  In sum, they created the monster that swallowed the Persian monarchy which they, themselves were a part of.  (BTW, can you think of another monarchy that is doing the same exact thing with its clergy today?  That's right: saudi Arabia).  True that it took centuries for the takeover to take full effect, but it eventually did.

MG: I think that my response to Niloufar answers your comment as well.  Althoug I would like to add that "Khomeini" per se did not do all of these things.  The culture that you speak of, and which is embeded in the Iranian psyche, is the end result of Safavid and post Safavid political Shiism.  In a way, the IRI, which, again, is a culmination of centuries of effort by political religious elite, fits the "conditioned" Iranian psyche like a glove.  The mullahs were thinking and planning for a very long time.  The rest of the society--and especially the "secular intellectuals"--were the ones sleep at the wheel.   

To Niloufar and Onlyiran

mg

Where we are going to put the secularism? In the people's mind? is that true? If the answer is yes,( with regard to this belief that says Iranian have already been brainwashed by religious dogmas) so, we have to know  how to firstly   examine these poisoned and somehow intoxicated minds and secondly how to prescribe  the right and relevant antidotes to cleanse them.

Khomeini examined these people and then prescribed them with his own drug of infatuation and intoxication and then made  them to perform a dance of  deliriousness and self-annihililation for three decades.

Thus, Khomeini as the shaman  and his Ideology as the fatal poison must be cleansed from the minds of the masses.

Breaking Khomeini this main  creator of regressional attitudes in the minds of our masses, must be the first priority in our fight against bias and hindering belifs. Khomeini must be directly attacked and broken by the way of  strong and rational debates. This surely will help the worn out bodies and exhausted souls of the msses of people to fret and review their lives under the Khomeini's sinister lagacy.

Ms. Parsi

I don't know how could I disagree with you in anything when I agree with you to the degree I do with your post on this blog.

You have nailed it, my lady....

Religiosity is not religion

Religiosity is not religion and selfrighteousness is not morality.
j.Austen

mullahs as effective agents of secularisation

i think the mullahs have been the unwitting agents of secularisation in iran. no one else could have uprooted the rule and role of religion in iran as effectively.

in saying that i am inferring that religion was close to the heart of government before the revolution.

it began with the Safavids and their role in spreading shia islam in iran. the process inevitably led to a shift of power to a rising religious establishment.

Reza shah made a strong effort to push back their power by trying to copy attaturk, but this project failed. attaturk's struggle against the mosque was tremendously helped by the fact that the Caliphate at the time aligned itself with the British when Turkey was under foreign attack. they were uprooted for committing treason.

in iran, however, the mullahs were embedded in the heart of the Constitutional Revolution. the guardian council that we have today was already in place in midler form in the Constitution that emanated from that struggle.

secular forces eventually lost the struggle to the mullahs in 1979, but this victory would lead to a clear demonstration of how religion fails the people when in government.

i would be optimistic :)

I live in a secular society

I live in a secular society like America and I don't like bars and alcohol and I' am hardly religious.

Secularism doesn't mean opening up bars or strip joints.

Please keep in mind that 60 percent of the population

is under the age of 30 and very tech savvy. I have many relatives from shahrestan. They come from those small towns. It's amazing how much they have changed. Their kids are constantly networking and can't get enough of hollywood. They have changed the attitude of their parents in a great deal. And that's because they have gone to universities and have interacted with kids from secular families. So I'm not worried about it that much.

And one more thing, Iranians are very much into "cheshmo ham cheshmi". If you have a differet format of mass media, you will see how fast people change.

I agree with Mr Only Iran

IMO, the issue of Iran and Iranian is more than Akhound. Secularism is evolution of mind. I will take Generation to change it. Exterism is lacked of knowdge. People are afriad of unknown. Heavon and Hell is changed as time change. Unfortunetly, we become extermist with force. Therefore, we need some force to change it. Reza Shah had a right idea. It will be required a complete force to make people comfortable with idea that we can be different.

Further more, Islam is religion which forced people to live for another word. You are poor. No problem, you will have a better life when you die. You are uneducated, No problem, in Behesht, you can have it all. Can Iranian seperate the religion from thier day to day decision.

The answer is yes and No. Turkey has done a great job of forcing it to society. However, they are still struggling.

Unfortunetly, Religion ideology is old and out dated. It lives base on 1200-2000 years old rule and regulation. How can anyone run a society according to books such as Koran, Bible or others.

These books are based on stories and no facts.

The defender of the religion always refered to these books as "Mojezeh" I personally can not find anything on them outside stories. I would be a believer, if someone shows me something in Koran or Bibble about any of todays technology.

 With all said, it will take few generation to educate people to except others as they are. I doubt, we will be able to see it in our life time.

The best case for Iran to start the Change which will take century to complete.

As soon as oil finish, the importance of Iran for other courties of world will be no more than Sudan and Afghanstan.

At that stage, we will have very poor country. As younger educated  people leave the country at current pace. The country will become one dimension and deep in the hole.

The Religion will be come more part of the day to day as there will not be any thing else to hang on to.

The story of Iran won't be much better than story of a bankrupt company.

I hope and wish to be incorrect. But Window of opportunity is small and closing very fast.

I guess we would only know

I guess we would only know the answer to your question after a free referendum wouldn't we?

I put it in a different angle. Suppose you are the one and only secular Iranian on earth. What would you do? Sit home and lament the 'roozegar'? In which case what difference that makes that you are a secular or a reactionary fanatical political religious? Or, as the one and only enlightened Iranian, you feel the obligation to propagate your message? distribute pamphlets? write books? protest against those actions you see against your values? The good news is that you are not alone. But it doesn't make any difference about what we should do about our belief for a secular democracy. The number doesn't matter.

Now another angle. Iranian culture is not a one dimensional entity. It has a rich history and tradition. It also has a century of social struggle toward a -not even now well understood- modernity. The question you ask yourself, is very limiting. Secularism, as an abstract notion can only be understood -barely- by social elite. But if you ask Iranian people whether they like to live with repression, the answer is pretty clear. They might not have digested all the aspects of what they want, as you very cleverly noted the Southpark example. But do you really think this is a major 'obstacle' for which people would prefer to live under akhounds? It's just a matter of practicing freedom which was -I'm sure- somewhat discomforting for all of us at some point of the evolution of our mind, as it was for me.

"Iran is a fundamentalist

"Iran is a fundamentalist Shiite country. If the mullahs are overthrown, the world would be a much better place because an aggressor regime bent on exporting its Islamic revolution would be gone. But I think the best we should hope for is its replacement by a moderate Islamist government which is more interested in governing Iran and content to export Islamism the same way the Saudis do — not good but a significant improvement."

those are the words of andy mccarthy, a senior fellow at the foundation for the defense of democracies

Bijan

I think you're right, and you are also right about the real challenge of giving the Iranian people the ability to make that choice.  Nice observation.

Onlyiran

Those Iranians who understand that secularism is not anti-faith, will definitely vote for it. The problem is educating those who have been brainwashed to believe a secular government means they have to live without their faith.

Ms. Parsi is absolutely right when she observes a majority is in favor of separation of religion and government because of the excesses of current regime. So, the answer to your question is a “qualified” yes. Majority of Iranians would vote for separation of mosque and state.

The real question is: how would one give them the opportunity to vote that vote?.

Masoud

I have no motives in posting this.  It's just a question that I have had on my mind for some time.  And I am not advocating a religious system.  Actually, I have been to Iran very recently, and have seen first hand what people think.

But if you observe people in Iran, you will note that they do have a religious centric philosophy on life.  I'll give you an example.  I was watching "Southpark" in Iran with a cousin who is eduacted, secular and pretty anti-IRI, and cannot wait to see the IRI gone.  I then told him about the episode of Southpark where Jesus was defecated on.  he just could not believe or accept it.  His question to me was: "how can they allow such a thing"?  I had to explain the concept of free speech to him over and over again, and the fact that the government does not have control over such things.  To this day, however, I do not believe that he really grasped the concept. 

I saw this religion based view on life and politics in Iran, even among those who want a separation of religion and politics there.   That is why I posed the question, and wanted to get everyone's view on the subject.

Yes - Iranians do want a Secular Government

I however would like to question your motives for posting this to begin with?   Why would you even ask?    Do you think majority of Iranians are baboons and enjoy what is taking place in Iran?  Or do you have other agenda?  In a country where people get killed for holding peaceful demonstrations - out hamvatans come out into the streets by millions - and you still say majority wants status quo?  I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you have not been to Iran in recent years.   Let me assure you - majority of Iranians are not even religous - they pretend to have a religion......Just look around or ask around - less than 2% of Iranian Moslems pray - a must in Isalm.   So how does that make them religious.   Iranians - unfortunately - have learned very well over the years, the art of going with the flow.   What religous? 

Hello All

I think that Mr. Ghanbari is correct when he states that the majority of our people "are religious and inherently against any kind of non-religious  way of approaching the philosophy of life."  I do want to emphasize that, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong in having that kind of view in life on a personal level.  However, again, in my view, the problem develops when that philosophy becomes state policy and the rule of governance.  It creates a situation that is simply incompatible with democtractic institutions.  BTW, this concept is not unique to islam.  It can apply to any religion if that religion is used as a political philosophy.

Niloufar: I personally hope that you are correct.  I do not have a problem with anyone practicing his / her religion, whatever that may be.  In fact, allowing people to practice their faith in peace is a pilar of deomocracy.  As far as a government is concerned, however, I am in favor of a secular democracy

Onlyiran

i think the majority - perhaps not a big majority - would opt for a secular state in iran now. courtesy of the excesses of the current regime, there is a majority in favour of separating the state from religion. this is not the same as saying they don't want to be muslims.

Peace

Dear friend

If the majority of Iranians had a problem seeing their head of state drinking a glass of Champagne to celebrate a meeting, then we have to try as hard as possible to change such a retarded mentality, otherwise its not worth associating ourselves anymore with that land. I mean we are in the 21st century. We can't accept people to remain with medieval mentality. Iranians inside iran are currently brainwashed by the system. Even when the ayatollahs go to hell, it will take 2 or 3 years of detoxification before people can have a mind of their own again. We have no choice but to aim for a secular mentality otherwise many iranians should emigrate out of iran for good.

//www.irannostalgia.com

irannostalgia.com

How to make them know??

mg

It is unfortunately a very bitter truth, the majority of our intricate society are religious and inherently against any kind of non-religious  way of approaching the philosophy of life. In other words they do not want to hear  anything critical about their faith.

Thus making this huge part of this amazingly intricate society to accept the certain realities of life and the vital importance of undergoing new changes in accordance with the undeniable necessities of time, will be a very difficult job to do.

I hope we will be able to defeat the bias and ignorance at first and then...