Fighting Words

Omidkarimi

Here's a revised version of a comment that I left on a responding blog.  I think that it's applicable here as well:

The problem is not in people practicing their faith.  Religion is a deeply personal matter, and it should remain as such.  The problem is when religion becomes part of the state, and that is what you see in Iran and Saudi Arabia.  When your judicial system is based on a 1400 year old Bedouin code or a 5000 year old Jewish tribal code, you will see floggings on the streets.  The challenge for all of us is not to bash the religion and call those who practice it brain washed terrorist morons.  The only result of that short sighted and emotional approach is alienation and radicalization, which is something that we really don’t need anymore in the Middle East.

As I said in my blog, secularization and democracy is the way forward.  Unfortunately, because of corrupt, despotic and incompetent rulers, religion has become the sole political alternative in the Middle East.  Some of those despotic rulers, like the IRI, have taken the upper hand by claiming religion as their own, and as the justification for their crimes against the people. Everything in the Muslim world today is being defined with a religious undertone, from the Arab / Israeli conflict to the Iraq invasion to the cost of bread at the local bakery.  And this is the direct result of a vacuum in secular leadership in the society. 

I think that everyone’s time is much better served in concentrating our efforts on bringing about secular democracies and separation of church and state in Iran and in the broader Muslim world.  It is a tough challenge, and will probably take at least one or two generations to accomplish. But it sure as hell won’t happen by bashing people’s religions and putting them on the defensive because of their faith.   

"Let me ask you a question:

"Let me ask you a question: let's say that the mullahs are gone
tomorrow.  What should be our priority, trying to rebuild the country,
put in place secular democratic institutions, create employment,
elevate our standing in the world, or tell people that they should
convert to Zoroastriansim and create another internal ideological
conflict like the one that has paralyzed the country for the past 30
years?

I think that we should have our priorities straight."

One can easily ask for ones own national values and traditions to be protected and recognized, at the same time, ask for secularism, democracy etc.

THe difference between me and you is that I view Islam as a threat to such progress in Iran. Organized religion is dangerous the more structured it gets, in Iran, Islam is in every fabric of governance.

You think all the local mullahs who run those thousands of government funded mosques to give away the power given to them by the Islamic establishment? The same mullahs who tell people they are first muslim then Iranian? 

A mosque in Iran is more of a poltical party house than a house of God, thats the truth. Thats why young bright semi religious iranian youth get beaten with batons on their head in the streets.

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Cost, well said!

COP writes: "I have not seen any references to other religions being less violent than Islam in other blogs - all have been violent. However, other religions did not burn our ancestoral house - Islam did, so our beef is with Islam."

Indeed, this is why so many Iranians are in fact "bitter."

LONG LIVE THE GLORY OF KUROSH 

Bijan AM

Thank you.  I think that if we want a future free Iran where there is true freedom of speech, religion and thought, we should begin by setting an example now.  Iran is a multi-cultural society, and it should be treated as such.  I personally much rather see a free Iran with a growing economy, good schools, low unemployment, respect for, and inclusion of, minorities, etc., rather than an Iran mired in some kind of an inner conflict because people are, once again, forced to worry about their religion (this time around being Muslims).  Like I said before, priorities, priorities, priorities... 

Onlyiran

Thank you for a sensible and rational post. Whatever, Islam has done to Iranian culture is not really relevant at this instant in our struggle. Whether we like it or not our masses still are muslims (many of them devout). I’m not referring to our urban areas. Go to our villages and small cities. Look at 70+ million not a few millions in Tehran or Shiraz or Isfahan & Tabriz. 

What is to be gained by insulting Islam? Why not focus on murderous acts of IRI as anti-Islam? What is wrong to simply advocate separation of church and state? Keep religion out of government and leave them in people’s houses and hearts.

I have nothing against many of the posts here with regard to the impact of Islam on our culture and heritage. As a matter of fact I would agree with most everyone of them whole heartedly. But, at this point in our struggle for freedom, those debates will not produce many fruits (I’m afraid).

  Sir, many thank again for your timely blog.  

Omidkarimi

Let me ask you a question: let's say that the mullahs are gone tomorrow.  What should be our priority, trying to rebuild the country, put in place secular democratic institutions, create employment, elevate our standing in the world, or tell people that they should convert to Zoroastriansim and create another internal ideological conflict like the one that has paralyzed the country for the past 30 years?

I think that we should have our priorities straight.

"With all due respect, sir,

"With all due respect, sir, if you think that islam is not a part of
Iran's identity today, you are delusional. Just ask an Iranian on the
street what his / her religion is, and see what the answer is.  Are you
going to convince the 60 year old guy in a village in Iran that Islam
really doesn't belong to him, his family and his village?  Again, as I
mentioned before, Iranians have shaped Islam in their own image. Just
like they have shaped many other foreign practices and customs in their
own image.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  So what?  if you
think about it, with the right leadership and the right agenda, and
given our rich culture and our natural and human resources, Iran can
become the leader, and trend setter, for the Muslim world.  Think about
the power that can come with that.  

Instead of worrying about trivial things such as whether we should
revert back to the pre-Islam era in Iran, we should worry about
creating a democractic society, a robust economy, equality for men and
women, a secular system of government, etc..."

Absoloutly, Im not arguing that Islam is not a religion worshipped by the majority of Iranians today. But the religion is not Iranian, and is not shaped in any way by us, and is not a part of our Iranian culture, the main foundations of the religion, wether Shia or Sunni, still follow mostly the same rules the nomadic arabs follow and set upon our people. Nooruz is Iranian, jumping over fire is Iranian, Zorostratism is Iranian, Sofreye hafzin is Iranian, Islam is not Iranian, Praying to Mecca is not Iranian.. Its an ARAB religion and you can try to sell this theory that we have integrated Islam with our society to cover over this part, I would argue that you are wrong, and the hejab issue, the power weilded by the mullahs at a local political level, and many other issues are perfect examples of this, all the way to the top of our governance that have caused cultural and political turmoil and conflict. Its not politically correct to say it, but Islam HAS arabized Iran... The same social rules that people live under in the KSA, and other Emir Arab states without issues or protest.. are the same rules our people are protesting against.. It is THEIR way of worshipping Allah,we have or had our way.

If Germany turned Hinduist tomorrow and integrated the cast system, it would be an Indian religion, not  german religion, it has nothing to do with Germany or German culture even though most people would follow it..

If Iran would become a secular democratic state etc, which I hope to see one day, Islam will eventually fade out of the country considering the regime is promoting Islam every way possible.. money, funding, books, denial of conversion to other religions, other religions dont have permission to try to convert others etc... when this fades away, so will the relígion, not completely, but bit by bit. Zorostriatism didnt fade out in just one month.. it tok centuries of cultural genocide before they completed their mission.

And btw, I dont want Iran to become a leader over muslim nations, but all nations without regards to religion, that is the Iranian way like our founders did.. this notion that an Arab religion binds our people to other ME nations is false.. especially when they see us as infidels anyway.... Hear what their leaders, journalists and defence officials say about us.. And let me add, Islam has given arab leaders in the ME power over Iran...

Irans answer is nationalism, secularism, liberal democracy, zorostriatism, going back to its cultural roots and reviving it through a cultural renaissance which is already happening in Iran.. not Islam.. it will never be Islam.. because our society cant integrate with it.. its not our way.. never will be. By all means, Il break my bread with you if your a muslim, christian, jewish, atheist etc.. but dont tell me its Iranian being a muslim.. its not..

Why cant I wish for human rights, equal rights etc and at the same time not wish for the original and true traditions of my country to be returned and upheld?

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Faramarz jaan

I think you answered your own comment here:

whats been done in the name of Islam. Despots, dictators and tyrants have committed crimes in the name of everything, including religion, history, race, etc...

again, as I mentioned in the blog, the Quran does have pretty scary things in it.  But so do almost all other religions (even non-Abrahamic ones).  The challenge is to put all of that in context, and unless there is evidence to the contrary, out of almost 2 billion Muslims on this planet, there's only a microscopic, but yet VERY LOUD, fraction that take a literal interpretation of Quranic text.  Therefore, that very important fact should be mentioned when there is high exposure criticsim of Islam (or any other religion).  Just like when there's such criticsim of nut job Christians like Hagee.  Everyone is quick to qualify that criticism by pointing out that these guys are just the lunatic fringe.  The same should be true when Islam, or any other religion for that matter, is criticised.  It should be given context.  To do otherwise, one will play right into IRI's hands, which has expolited this issue for its advantage for the past 30 years. 

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck

its a duck. 

Look at whats been done in the name of Islam.  Then you'll see why the hatred.

Omidkarimi

With all due respect, sir, if you think that islam is not a part of Iran's identity today, you are delusional. Just ask an Iranian on the street what his / her religion is, and see what the answer is.  Are you going to convince the 60 year old guy in a village in Iran that Islam really doesn't belong to him, his family and his village?  Again, as I mentioned before, Iranians have shaped Islam in their own image. Just like they have shaped many other foreign practices and customs in their own image.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  So what?  if you think about it, with the right leadership and the right agenda, and given our rich culture and our natural and human resources, Iran can become the leader, and trend setter, for the Muslim world.  Think about the power that can come with that.  

Instead of worrying about trivial things such as whether we should revert back to the pre-Islam era in Iran, we should worry about creating a democractic society, a robust economy, equality for men and women, a secular system of government, etc...

Have you seen the public flogging video yet?

I was 14 or 15, my mother and I decided to go Sabze Meidan to do some shopping going back home we had to pass the shamsolemareh to get to the bus. We saw a crowd  and we saw maybe 12 young men all blindfolded standing by the wall, then bang bang, the bullets were just showering their bodies, then we heard from people they were drug traffikers, after that once in a while there were flogging of bad hijabs and drinkers and this and that, and it just got better and the execution were done by cranes!

Then one has the nerve to ask the question why so "bitter".

How repulsive!

OnlyIran aziz I should mention that I did not mean you.

Something I had to reply too and disagree with.

"Is it lost upon these writers that the overwhelming majority of Iranian people are Muslims?  Do
your really think that all of a sudden they are all going to drop the
religion that has been practiced by their family, and ancestors, for
the past 1400 years and convert to something else?  And do you really believe that this is the path to Iran’s salvation?  Islam, and especially Shia Islam, are deeply rooted in the Iranian culture and are inseparable parts of the Iranian identity.  Being
an Iranian Muslim is not a sign of “Arabization”, as Iranians have
created Islam in their own vision and have infused it with their unique
culture.  The Islam that is practiced by Iranians is vastly different from what it was 1400 years ago.  It is a mixture of Islam, elements of Zoroastrianism and ancient Persian mythology.  It
is insane to think that Iranians will let go of this deeply rooted part
of their identity because someone quotes a few passages from of the
Quran."

I dont know if you have been following the incidents in Iran lately, but Islam has been less and less popular in Iran because of this Islamic government. Clerics themselves have complained that mosques are going empty, and that young people are throwing stuff at them. One mullah said that he had to make the V sign just to not get ugly looks from people after the presidential demos.

I couldnt disagree more with you. Islam has nothing to do with Iranian identity, Iranian culture.. assimilating it is impossible and is the reason why we have so many cultural problems today. Nomadic arabs came to our lands with the swoard and shoved their way of worshipping the same God zorostrians worshipped down our ancestors throats, a way that is not Iranic at all, not the slightest. Irans true religion is zorostriatism. Give Iran a secular government that doesnt focus so much on Islam and stops giving muslims benefits in society over non muslims, I believe you would see more conversions or people that would define themselves as non religious.

Im not saying Islam, Christianity or Judaism are better over one another, Im saying that these religions came from Zorostriatism originally, OUR religion, and people like you should stop painting this fact over with excuses that its an Islam "with an Iranian touch".. It has nothing to do with Iran..and thats final.. its an imported religion... a religion that still to this day is creating conflicts within our society.. people should being so politically correct and admit this fact..if you define yourself as a muslim.. then you are following an Arab religion.. that is a fact.

Islam belongs the nomads, nothing more or less, you bend over every day 3 times towards a rock in the Saudis, that is self explenatory.

Other than that I agree with your writing, judging and generalizing people on basis of beliefs is stupid, people who use such tactics are shooting themselves int he foot.

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Pedro

Thanks for your comment.  What you say here is the perfect reason for the separation of church and state.  I bet you that if Iran had a secular government, your sister and her husband would still be practicing their faith.   

2 years ago my sister and

2 years ago my sister and her husband went for their first HAJ trip to MAKEH. They then came back with Saloom va Salavat, very exited to be called Haj Agha va Haj Khanoom. Very good and decent MOSALMAN couple, college graduate, educated, very respected in the circle of friends and work associates, self employed and make good money and alwaye prayed 5 times a day never went to a MASJED unless for a funeral reson, she and her doughters do not were HEJAB unless in Iran in the public. In other words, the whole family is moslem becuse they loved Islam, not the Islamic republic Islam. 5 months ago when he and my sister traveled from Iran to visit us and the rest of the family here, I realized that he is no lnoger praying. to make the story short, in response to "why you do not pray any more he told me that " Islam is dead for me".

I never said

or defended other religions. In fact, I believe that given the opportunity, ALL religions are equally repressive as proven by history. Catholics are no better in repressive practices than Islam....Again, other religions did not burn my ancestoral house. 

The concept of athiesm and relative discussions are complicated and divisive. I am guilty of getting into (and starting) heated discussions with friends, family members and everybody else. It goes beyond what we're talking about here, so, I leave it at that.

Thanks for the discussion.

CoP

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IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

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Cost- Also

Here's a brief discussion about the veil requirement for women in Christianity (it's from a conservative site, but still discusses the issue with some background):

//www.traditioninaction.org/religious/d001rp.htm

and here its is in Judaism:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut#Hair_covering

Not that any of this makes the practice right, but I just wanted to show you that other religions put this sort of restrictions on women.

Ultimately, I want to see an Iran where women have a choice under a secular government.  Hejab or no hejab should be their choice, and their choice should be respected.

OK, Only...

I've said this before that I agree that Islam bashing is not productive, but I also understand the underlying reasons for it.

I do not believe for a second that we can eradicate Islam in Iran, hell, I would jump out of skin if we could only lessen its influence and crushing grip on our culture, people and day-to-day dealings and social interactions. Perhaps then we can hope for what might resemble a sustainable secular democracy in Iran.

Justified or not, the predicament that we find ourselves in these days is directly related to Islam. I think it is only fair to acknowledge at least that much.

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IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

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Mr. OnlyIran

Excellent observation hamvatan. In due time I am going to have some comment and facts presented here regarding the parallels between recently accepted Muslim Bashing and Jewish Holocaust. Resemblance is astonishing.

Regards and Thanks

-YT 

Only Iran: Excellent. Islam

Only Iran: Excellent. Islam bashing wil only radicalize the moderate muslims.

Cost

You’re getting this all wrong.  First of all, I’m an atheist.  I think that the whole idea of a God creating the universe in 6, 7 or 8 days is laughable. Second, no one says that religions are above criticism.  In fact, religions should be criticized, and I have done so myself, on this very site.  But, if the religion is criticized, that criticism should be placed in context.  Also, doing so now is inappropriate because it takes the focus away from what is really happening in Iran and gives the IRI the ammunition it needs to portray all opposition as out of touch fringe lunatics.  Third, what offends me is seeing my brothers and sisters get shot, raped, beaten and imprisoned in Iran by a bunch of thugs—brother and sisters who identify themselves as Muslims-- while some out of touch person who is sitting in the west writes a diatribe belittling Islam when he / she can spend that time and energy in exposing IRI’s crimes and bringing the plight of the Iranian people to the attention of the world.

Fourth, I have never claimed that this is or is not “true Islam”.  I don’t know what “true Islam” is because I wasn’t there 1400 years ago when Islam was born.  The Quran that we have today was put together by Caliph Othman, decades after Mohamed’s death, and after much war and conquest.  But let’s accept, for the sake of the argument, that everything in the Quran is exactly as Mohamed dictated it. My point is that the majority of Muslims really do not follow everything that is written in the Quran verbatim.  They pretty much pick and choose what they want to follow.  Most Muslims that I know drink, don’t wear the hejab, some eat pork, most don’t pray, most don’t fast, etc.  If that is nor “moving away” from a strict interpretation of the religion (i.e., being “reformed”) I don’t know what is.   

What is unfortunate about today’s Islam is that in a vacuum of leadership caused by corrupt and despotic rulers, lack of education and prevailing poverty in the Muslim world, the only voice that is heard is of those who do have a strict interpretation of the religion and who cannot and / or don’t want to be selective about what rules they should or should not follow.  The challenge is not to “get rid of Islam” in Iran, or in other places for that matter, to correct this situation, but rather to install the secular democratic institutions to prevent a takeover of the government by religious extremists, and to end corruption and improve people’s quality of life so that other voices can be heard.       

Well said OnlyIran

"The path to Iran’s freedom from mullah’s tyranny is not bashing people’s religious beliefs. It is empowering the masses"

No discrimination policy: I don't believe in their God but I believe in fairness and logic. All the Abrahamic religions have been used to annihilate innocent people. If we speak against such atrocities, then they should all be condemned. 

Unfortunately people allow their hate for IRI to control them and become their guiding light!! 

Thanks for the sound blog

IRANdokht

good article OnlyIran

I am not a Muslim, ..., additionally I don't have a good opinion about following any of the Abrahamic religions, ..., but I am with you on this.

You claim

your family is not religious, but are obviously offended by the postings with respect to Islam here, so YOU are religious, otherwise you would not be offended. That said, I have not seen any references to other religions being less violent than Islam in other blogs - all have been violent. However, other religions did not burn our ancestoral house - Islam did, so our beef is with Islam.

The arguments that Islam defenders give is that "This is not true Islam" - Please explain what is true Islam and where in this universe is it being practiced? Perhaps that place is an advanced, highly civilzed Muslim country...but wait, such place does not exist.

You may argue that most of Islam's ills are shared by other religions (excect for stoning probably) - you would be partially correct, but those religions and their followers have long abandoned most of those pre historic thoughts, mentality and practices- Islam has not! As an example, it is the only religion that requires women to cover themselves up to prevent arousal in men. How sick is that, I ask? If your answer is that hejab is for self respect, your answer would be a self-serving reference to justify what is wrong.

I am posting this in the spirit of civility, hopefully, you can reciprocate.

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IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

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Thank you so much for taking time to write about this

I long have seen these kind of Islamo bashing that to me is truly mind bugling.

Don't get me wrong, I am not religious at all, zero zilch but that does not give me the right to insult other peoples religious belief whether is Islam, Judaism Christianity or any other form. And the scary part is that these insults and harsh words are coming from a group that have lived in a Western society and consider themselves educated.

Again, thank you for writing about this.

Mehrdad