ETERAZ

Is this a joke???

Programmer Craig: 

The days of military colonialism are long gone. It hasn't been necessary to physically occupy a country in order to exploit it for over 50 years.

Seriously, I have to ask, what have you been smoking? How about March 2003!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is not including Reagan's complicity and support for the mass murder and dictatorships in Latin American, Lebanon, Indonesia and the Apartheid government in South Africa. Iraq is text book example of colonialism - the installation of a puppet government, 50 planned military bases, control of Iraqi air space, immunity from Iraqi law for American military personnel, the exploitation of its oil fields, the myriad of construction contracts given out to Betchtel, Halliburton, the Carlyle Group and other members of the Republican faithful, not to mention military occupation - are you freakin kidding me? - if Martians came to the US and did the same thing I wonder what your response would be? - this is too absurd, and you say I am out of touch...This is actually hair-raisingly obscene...

Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh

Mehdi-Palang

12 were postive depictions, 52 were even handed and the rest of the 90O and so were negative.

Well, for one thing, that's pretty subjective isn't it? Who gets to decide what is "even handed"? lol.

For another thing, "positive/negative" isn't the issue. How many movies did the west make in the last 100 years that showed coimmunism in a favorable light?

The issue is whether or not the West is using demeaning and innacurate stereoptypes to demonize other cultures. Right? Because we are talking about racism, not public opinion. The west doesn't ahve a good attitude towards the middle east. Deal with it. The middle east doesn't have a good attitude towards the west, either, in case you didn't notice? Bad blood doesn't necessarliy translate into organized racism, which is the case Said is trying to make and which some of thepeople here are supporting.

Also, I'd like to see somebody who knows talk about how Westerners and Christians are portrayed inside Iran. I already know the answer to this question when it comes to Arab countries :)

Bijan A. M: Here's an

Bijan A. M: Here's an excerpt by one of many Said's critics. There are many others:

...In Egypt, I started to consider Said's work on the Arab world in view of what I now had a chance to see firsthand. His work wasn't really about the Arab world or Islam as such, but about how Westerners, Americans in particular, had come to understand it. The main thrust of his work then was media critique, and how to read the American media for the ideas and desires it projects along with the ostensibly objective images it presents. This is a valuable subject, but I found it scarcely adequate grounding for trying to understand Arab culture or history or Islam as a body of beliefs and a network of practices. I suspect Said would have agreed: Intellectuals all have their own pressing interests, and these weren't his.

The problem, as I came to believe while rereading his books and keeping up with his columns, was that while my interest in Arab culture had partly been inspired by Said, his work generally tended to discourage readers from conducting their own research. He dismissed authors of any opinion he disagreed with. To him, they were -- to use the once-neutral phrase he had turned into an insult -- Orientalists, and all too often they were just straight-out racists.

Said's enmity toward Princeton University scholar Bernard Lewis is well-known. Other frequent targets included Fouad Ajami and Kanan Makiya. These two are Arabs, and because they couldn't be tarred as racists, Said retreated to equally unattractive formulations, like self-loathing, to deflect their work. Said contended -- rightly, though it's hard to know exactly to what degree -- that these men had served U.S. policy-makers by telling them the bad things they had wanted to hear about the Arab world. Said thus dismissed their work as compromised and not worth reading. It was perhaps an understandable position for an activist whose views were at odds with U.S. policy, especially regarding Israel and the Palestinians; but as a scholar and intellectual it was dishonorable and irresponsible. He should instead have encouraged both his American and Arab followers to read as much material as possible and to engage it all critically and systematically.

Said's frequent recourse to charges of racism was in keeping with thewas in keeping with the general thesis of Orientalism: that most writing on the Arabs and Islam was undertaken as a handmaiden of empire in order to dominate and subjugate the Middle East. Orientalism is essential reading for anyone interested in the meeting of the West and the Orient, but its canonical status, and frequent tone of condescension, convinced far too many readers they had an explanation at hand and needed to go no further. The sad result is that Said abetted the conditions he himself so often lamented: Americans, even the best-intentioned and most well-educated, don't know much about the Arab world or Islam.

It seemed to me in Cairo over the last year or so that Said was spending much of his time outside of the United States, in Europe and to a lesser extent in the Arab world. This I thought was too bad. His forte was speaking to Americans about their understanding of the Arabs; I wished that he had used the politically charged atmosphere of the post-September 11 world to continue challenging Americans, while relishing the challenge of taking his case to them himself. As an American, as well as an Arab, the proper place for Said's argument was here, not in Europe telling the Europeans what they wanted to believe about America. I read in the Arab press that he thought that in the time since September 11, the United States had become hostile and crazed. I don't believe that's true; and I hope that at the end of his life he didn't believe Americans had become hostile toward him. Or I'll speak for myself: I came to disagree with many of his positions and dislike much of his rhetoric, but I still take his moral courage to be among the defining characteristics of an exemplary American, and Arab, intellectual.

Lee Smith is writing a book on Arab culture for Scribner
//www.campus-watch.org/article/id/807

Dear Bijan - My Response to Zion

Dear Bijan I have stopped responding to Zion for many reasons. He just slanders and insults, doesn't have an open mind and thinks by making childish and ill-thought comments that he's somehow 'scoring points'. But since you asked so nicely how can I refuse. You are certainly correct that the interview was not a critical evaluation of Said's position, but his work has undoubtedly generated a massive literature both for and against his work, as is the case with any intellectual who articulates a new paradigm of critical thought. He is generally viewed as the founder of postcolonial theory and his work has had a truly massive influence in the course of the last thirty years in politics, cultural theory, Middle Eastern studies, media studies, aesthetic theory etc...

Said is himself guilty of what he tries to preach about the West. His entire agenda revolves around the Arab-Israeli issue, but in order to promote his Arab-centric agenda he has chosen to cover it up under a whole "theory" of Occidentalism and how it supposedly views the Orient.

This is just patent nonsense. First of all, the idea that Said as a Palestinian shouldn't be interested in Palestine is ludicrous. But much more importantly, anyone who knows anything about Said's work can tell you, Said's expertise resided in literary criticism and comparative literary studies. His book Orientalism can be viewed, as he himself has said and also as his doctoral supervisor at Harvard pointed out, as a comparative literary exercise, in which French, German, British and more recently American writings on the Orient written in the 18th and 19th centuries are compared, contrasted, analysed and evaluated. As I have already stated Said was interested in the commonalities shared by peoples of the Orient in how they had been REPRESENTED by the pseudo-scientific discourse of Orientalism, but also in literature and later film, tv and the media, which sought to delimit the 'essential' characteristics of the Oriental, which was dubiously believed to determine the Oriental's (much like the abhorrent 'essence' designated to Jews in anti-Semitic literature, the image of the hook nose miserly individual with beady eyes, craven visage, pre-dating Shakespeare's Shylock in the Merchant of Venice, and later taken up by anti-Semites in Russia and finally the Nazis) behavior, manners, their entire being in fact i.e. Orientals were framed by this discourse as sensual beings without reason or agency, unlike their Western counterparts, and so without contradiction, the Western 'civilizing mission' could be justified i.e. because they are irrational and closer to animals than human beings, the West, if not entitled, is at the very least performing a service in ruling over Orientals - all the while plundering and reshaping the colonies' economies in terms of their own interests. One example of this is what the British did in Egypt when they destroyed and forbade all agriculture except cotton production which was then shipped to the mills of Yorkshire. In this way a lop-sided economy was imposed upon Egypt which could no longer call itself self-sufficient since grain and many other basic food stuffs where imported into Egypt (much of which had previously been grown by Egyptian farmers) at extortionate prices by Britain and via its colonies, and if the Egyptian government refused to play ball, the British could simply turn off the tap and people would as a consequence starve to death because demand would outstrip supply and there would be no domestic supply which could fill the vacuum because it had been extirpated by the imperial powers. 

The comparative literary dimension is essential to understanding Said's work, as is the nexus between power and knowledge, and how the two supplement one another and cohabitate. Said's interest was in how academic and literary depictions ideologically legitimized colonialism and reinforced the grip of the colonizers, not only in the latters eyes, but in the eyes of the colonized themselves.  

That's why he always talks about Arabs. Is the Orient comprised solely of Arabs? That is why he chooses his dates and events so conveniently. The beginning is Napoleon's entry to Egypt. Really? One would have thought an unbiased real scholar would have started with the Greeks, with Alexander at latest and the entire army of philosophers like Aristotle who devised theories of "Asia".

Said does mention Greek depictions of the East and notes their relevance. But firstly Said's interest was in modern imperialism since the industrial revolution. And second he was trained, as I have said, in English and comparative literature - he was fluent in French, and had a firm grasp of German and Italian, and was obviously fluent in Arabic and English. He was not a classicist i.e. someone who specializes in ancient Greek or Latin texts, and since he was not trained in the field and didn't speak Greek or Latin he refrained speaking at length about them. To repeat, he was not an expert in Classics and he was interested in modern imperialism and not in the few scattered Greek or Biblical accounts of Alexander.  

That would have taken the attention away from Arabs and Palestine, however, you see? No good. After all he wants to portray Islam as this Eastern source of wisdom the West misunderstands.

False premise: we presuppose there is no misunderstanding - a different question entirely, since you presuppose a clash of civilizations and I not going to debate that here, I have already criticized it elsewhere and on numerous locations on this and other sites. 

Going back to origins with Greeks would have defied the purpose. Islam itself originated as a heretic sect of Christianity, a Greco-Roman religion, combined with pagan Arab forces who favored Byzantine Rome to the Persian empire. That is why the Koran rejoices in the victory of Rome, or why Alexander has been deliberately adopted by muslims as the messiah figure to oppose the Torah-Bible's choice of Cyrus.

Said was an atheist and couldn't care less about the genesis of Islam or Cyrus or whatever...if you want to have a theological debate go talk to a pious Muslim. To repeat: Said was interested in the Orient's representation and that representation's complicity with colonial domination. 

Every twist and turn, every lie and misinformation, to serve his "Palestinian" agenda.

Please cite some 'lies' - don't slander...I can say that every 'holy book' is a piece of fabricated garbage written to trick, repress and control, so what??? You need to quote the man in context and then propose either a counterargument or source which disproves the man. Furthermore, the book was written 30 years ago; this isn't a religious sermon, if a scholarly piece of work proves to have one or two errors, we don't pretend it's the word of God, try and salvage the point and say that God really meant this or that. No scholarly work is timeless and no one is suggesting so, so stop creating straw men to attack...Literally hundreds of books have been written since refining and amplifying Said's work so stop talking rubbish...

That is also why he had to deplore the way Khomeini's revolution had been 'portrayed' by 'Orientalists back in early 80s.

Said had no love for Khomeini or Islamic fundamentalists and told HAMAS that he flatly disagreed with their tactics TO THEIR FACE inside the Occupied Territories. He also criticized Arafat a great deal, as well as Abu Mazen IN PRINT week in week out. Stop talking rubbish. Regarding the revolution his criticism was that the media had little interest in understanding the causes of the revolution. Instead they just concerned themselves with showing black clad fanatics burning flags and therefore actively dehumanized Iranians in the eyes of the American public... After all Zion, I know you think you're a member of the 'chosen race' and we're all destined for 'hell', but do you at least concede that we are human?

his entire career was comprised of basically recounting over and over again the only thing he could see through that narrow tunnel, and nothing else.

Sounds like you're decribing yourself - and are just recounting your own distorted, blinkered view of the world...A more superficial point, the man studied at Princeton and Harvard and had tenure at Columbia University, all Ivy League schools. You haven't even grasped the most basic tenets of argumentation i.e. rational, coherent argument backed up by credible factual evidence, so why are you complaining, could it be your 'narrow tunnel vision' perhaps?

Dear Natalia, I'm not going to bother with that guy...I said I wouldn't and I'm not going to do...he can insult and talk as much rubbish as he likes, I couldn't care less...

Dear Bijan, I hope that answered some of your questions. Take care.

Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh

Monda jan: Do enlighten us!

Monda jan: Do enlighten us! We're waiting for your revelatory insights on the following topics?

...Question of Israel??
...Intersubjectivity???
...actor-observor phenomenon?? You refer to it as seeing oneself from others perspectiv which by the way Said had no credentials to speak of. Let me know which behavioral science theory he based his theories on??

Attribution theory???
//www.unc.edu/~knobe/PsyBel.pdf

one more

I apologize for constantly harping on this but here is another video clip by Jackie Salloum:

//youtube.com/watch?v=Mi1ZNEjEarw&feature=related

Jackie watched 1000 films that have Arab & Muslim characters (from the year 1896 to 2000)

12 were postive depictions, 52 were even handed and the rest of the 90O and so were negative.

a video montage

For those who don't beleive that Middle-Easterners have a history of being demonized in literature/film/art/media please watch this video:

 //youtube.com/watch?v=Ko_N4BcaIPY

(for those of us who say, well we are Persians not Arabs:  When is the last time that you were identified as being Persian by someone at the airport/shopping mall?)  

For many (non-Middle Eastern) people Persian/Kurd/Azeri/Assyrian/Armenian/Baluchi/Pakistani/Indian and Arab are indistinguishable.

Hallelujah

Yes of course. If you only read the book! If only you could listen to the good news, cleanse your soul and be saved!

See what I mean dear Bijan, you'll only get more of this.

What Havoc!

Please check into your reasons why the topic provokes such anger in you.

Said's discussion of looking at ourselves from the other's perspective (not only West's) is fundamental to building strong consciousness, political or individual. Each opinion that we form, each action that we take automatically incorporates our sense of intersubjectivity. Why is it so anxiety provoking when it comes to the question of Israel in Palestine? If you have done your homework and your conscience is secure about your discoveries, then you should be able to articulate your values without hateful vulgarity and confused anger. 

adfsd

Thanks. Sadly you are right. The humanities , especially in fields like Middle Eastern studies, religious studies or feminism has been taken over and fatally distorted in Western academia, There is so much alliance with the most filthy doctrines, so much double standard, it is nauseating.

to Bijan A M

I tried to respond to your comment last night but my comment didn't seem to go through.  (anyways)...

Here is a link to a video of Edward Said being interviewed by Charlie Rose :  (he is challenged by Charlie Rose)

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=85osTw66XTI

Also if you want to listen to him speak about his book "Culture & Imperialism" here is a link :

//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3442235942259420708&hl=en

I sincerely suggest that you check out one of his books from your local library because any attempt by me to paraphrase him wouldn't do him justice.  In his books he uses countless examples of literature in which he quotes a passage by so-and-so and then proceeds to discuss the underlying meaning/tone/word-choice that was used.  He is a master of the English language.

Zion: Regrettably, The

Zion: Regrettably, The academia in the US has been hijacked by communist sympathizers and bastion of indoctrination of our youth by the left.

//www.campus-watch.org/about.php

"Their problem is not the atrocities of aggression of US or Israel or else they would be the first to be vocal about the worse atrocities by IRI, which they basically ignore, when the leftist intellectuals like Edward Said and Noam Chomsky endorse IRI, when they did not have any state positions to even call their action as diplomatic relation (even that should not be endorsing such a regime without raising the human rights conditions). Edward Said's travel to Iran was not visiting a scientific or professional organization, it was visiting IRI government and endorsing it. So the problem of the Leftists/Islamists with Israel and the US is not the aggression of these states. Their hate is for the democracy and modernism in Israel and the US. "

//www.amazon.com/Lust-Knowing-Robert-Irwin/dp...

Orientalism doesn't translate to anti west

I believe some of you have not read the book and drawing your conclusions. Read it first, think about it, investigate for yourselves, then start your arguments!

Please read the book then argue.

Highly recommended

I highly recommend this book. It's a great book that will educate you by making you ask the questions!

PS

Did you happen to see "Kingdom of Heaven" when it came out a few years ago? If so, what did you think of it?

As a history buff, I was grossly offended by the politically correct changes that were made to make the movie "fair" to muslims. Since when it is OK to re-write history just to try to make people feel all warm and fuzzy? And why not make the Europeans seem more noble than they really were? Why not skip the atrocities the crusaders committed? Why is it only the Muslims who deserve a pass? In this example, is it racism that Muslim Arabs were not confronted by the acts of savagery they committed, but European Christians were?

Hmmm...

...a set of principles, ideas and concepts upon which to draw, so they are better equipped to subjugate and control the indigenous population.

That's just ridiculous. Sorry, I know you were trying to be serious, but you seem to be woefully out of touch with the modern era. The days of military colonialism are long gone. It hasn't been necessary to physically occupy a country in order to exploit it for over 50 years. Globalization and the computer age have been the last nails in the coffin of colonization.

Now to get on to your more serious allegations of organized racism... how are Westerners/Christians/etc  portrayed in Iran? I honestly don't know, but I do know that Arab media routinely promote demeaning and outright false stereotypes aboutboth Christians and Westerners. Are we in Pot calling the kettle Black situation here?

I do agree that both movies and literature have been responsible for portraying a false stereotype of the middle east, going back many years. You know what, though? That "stereotype" is ovely flattering to middle eastern culture as often as it is demeaning. It's often an idealized or romanticized fantasy version of a foreign culture and it's history. So, don't be so quick to scream "racism". My 2 cents worth.

Laissez le bon temps roule!!!

Diluted?

Whatever... .

hahahahha

How diluted Zion. hahahhaha

Again, thanks for the laugh. I can go to bed laughing tonight too. :o)

Before you start with the non-sense too. You replied to a comment made by Bijan AM to Mr. Sadegh. So, I get to reply to you.

Good night  (Buenas Noches)

Solh va Doosti

Natalia

Disclaimer: The author of this comment does not at this time support any specific poltical group or ideology. She also believes that religion is a personal matter. :o)

Bijan

Don't waste your breath. They can't respond because they have nothing to say. You have to understand, they have adopted this guys ideology wholesale, they never looked at it with an iota of anything resembling a critical approach. They are like his faithful devout disciples, initiated in the rites of the secret wisdom of 'Orientalism'. What can they say? At best they parrot his stuff as they always do, like good faithful disciples. Sorry about my tone, but believe me he deserved no better. Read his stuff and then go over all the comments by these people these past few months and you will realize they have basically repeated the words out of his mouth, sometimes verbatim. This nonsense has almost destroyed Middle Eastern Studies in the Western academia, single handedly. This of course is more a sign of the degeneracy of our age than any particular merit of this gentleman's 'theories.

adfsd,

You are right on target. Really enjoyed your sharp humor.

Dear sadegh

As adfsd has stated in one of his/her previous comments. People on this thread are not to presume that he/she is speaking to them unless that particular person's name is on the comment title.

I think, it a marvelous idea. Don't you? Just take a look at this person's comments on the thread. One could totally pass many of this person's comments by as they don't appear to apply to no one.

 One might also not want to presume adfsd's gender. :o) 

Best,

Solh va Doosti

Natalia

Disclaimer: The author of this comment does not at this time support any specific poltical group or ideology. She also believes that religion is a personal matter. :o)

adfsd like I said........

 adfsd: It was meant for the moderators and sadegh who read my unpublished post.

Next time state so, in the comment title and e-mail the web site, so that JJ can get your complaint about the moderators. Your ranting and raving on the thread about it, will not do you any good.

 What makes you think that sadegh can read your unpublished posts? The man has to wait until they can fix the videos for viewing on his blogs. As it is obvious that you don't know the moderators then you must be psychic or an illogical person.

You must have a love affair with the alphabet. If you cannot address me by one of my given names then do me a favor and skip my comments. How presumptious of you to baptize me with a different name. I have 4 names, just pick one. Don't get creative!

Also, your logic is faulty once again.

adfsd: An incessant need to respond to every post is certainly comparable to a rat biting at cheese.

I don't respond to every post. Simply take a good look at this thread and you will see that I did not respond to every comment on this thread.

I do recall, you have more than once replied to a comment that did not have your name on the comment title line. I don't recall you complaining about it then. I guess you believe in the "Do as I say and not as I do." mentality.

We can take it even further in stating that your very presence on this thread is rather presumptious of you. Did you receive an invitation to participate on this thread by sadegh?

 As your other comment  states, I feel the same about you. Finally, we agree on something.

adfsd: I personally don't care for anything you have to say.

Now, practice what you preach and don't reply.

Natalia Nadia Alvarado-Álvarez

Disclaimer: The author of this comment does not at this time support any specific poltical group or ideology. She also believes that religion is a personal matter.

Mr. Sadegh

I hate to admit my illiteracy,   but I should confess that I never heard of Mr Said or read any of his books. Based on your post, he must have earned a lot of respect as an scholar by some circles of intellectuals around the world.

Without passing any judgments, my comments are based only on watching your posted interview clips. The interview appeared to be more of a forum for Mr. Said to freely express his views and beliefs about “Orientalism”.   It was not an interview by a critic to challenge his views and generalizations.

From the tone of your comments on this thread I assume that you support Mr. Said’s view points with regards to Israeli-Palestinian conflict (my apologies if my assumption is wrong). If that is the case, would you please strip the frustration tone out of the post by Zion and respond to it for the benefit an uneducated but impartial reader like myself?.

The posted interview didn’t give me a sense of impartiality or subjective assessment by Mr. Said.  

Regards,  

Bijan

NAA? Did I ask your opinion

NAA? Did I ask your opinion or requested your help???

"If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen" was not meant for you; how presumptuous of you??? It was meant for the moderators and sadegh who read my unpublished post.

You really ought to mind your business unless you're one the moderators. I personally don't care for anything you have to say.

BTW, An incessant need to respond to every post is certainly comparable to a rat biting at cheese.

adfsd.......if you want to complain

about one of your comments not being posted then you need to    e-mail the web site management. No one on this thread hindered, your freedom of speech.

By the way this sentence of yours doesn't make any sense:

"You can take the heat, stay out of the kitchen!!"

Solh va Doosti

Natalia

Preaching enmity, ill-will

Preaching enmity, ill-will toward humanity, and pitting one group against others seem to be the modus operandi of the Islamists and fake athiests on this site.

Said and his Orientalims has been debunked so many times that it does not worth rehashing.Edward Said endorsed Khatami and the Islamic Republic; enough said.

Edward Said's most courageous act of resistance to the Israelis was when he went to southern Lebanon, after the Israelis had withdrawal and threw a big bad stone across the border.

After that dangerous and defiant act he quickly flew back to New York to order his pastrami on rye, and consult with his Jewish psychotherapist. What a man?!

For Lust of Knowing: The orientalists and their enemies:
//www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obi...2295176- 2801411

monacantlogin: What is your

monacantlogin: What is your obsession with people registering??? Do you work for VEVAK or SAVAMA? What are you going to do with those people who register? You want to trace them through their IP so you can do what???

I wonder if you've read What

I wonder if you've read What Went Wrong By Bernard Lewis and what you thought of it. I'm still waiting for a book recommendation from you - non fiction of course.

Fantastic Post Sadegh!

It's good time to be thinking about him. For some reason video #2 was no longer available or such message. I will try it again later. Said was a remarkable intellectual, roohash shaad. Mehdi thank you for other interviews (culture & imperialism).

To the disrespectful posters, ZionFredadfs and such: Obviously you have not read much with open mind, do educate yourself,YOU ARE FULL OF HATE.
P.S. If you're proud owners of your opinions, why don't you get registered?!

Why did you not publish my

Why did you not publish my post. The content of my post was not offensive. Cowards, all of you. You can take the heat, stay out of the kitchen!!