For an Islamic Democracy

No I am dead serious David ET

You see you are the classic example of those who are love to see Islam through their our islamophobe-tined glasses. They cannot handle or even entertain the notion of a democratic Islam.

Well, I have news for you Mr ET! Islam is open to adjustment and reinterpretation. This makes all those preamble lines a subset of Islamic constitution.

BTW, you may call yourself an apostate but in reality you are not too different from some of the religious fanatics only at the other end of the spectrum.

cheers

 For an Islamic democracy

You must be kidding me Salman , right?

Islamic Sharia as well as so much in Quran are in direct contrast to the niversal Declaration of Human Rights , that one would not know where to start. How about line 1 of Preamble........and so on!

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world, 

//www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

e.g: I am kafir and a former Muslim (Apostate). How about non-Muslims that are not "the people of the book". How about gays?...

A little nonlinear thinking can help

A --> B and A --> C therefore B = C

= means is equivalent/same status

If I say that the earth is flat you inform me that my near sight is false. If say that the stars are the fireflies attracted to the moon, the candle of the sky, you inform me that my far sight is false. My dear logician, in your presence, I prefer to be blind.

Rabindranath Tagore

 For an Islamic democracy

A little logic...

A = Man,
B = Morality,
C = Religion/God,
"arrow" = creates/defines:

A --> B
A --> C

Now, where is the circular reasoning? There is no C --> A (even though religious people want to convince us this) and so on...

//xkcd.com/386/

To come back to the subject: I don't think bin laden was at war with islam, simple because of historical reasons. Centuries ago many muslim arabs invaded other countries, that is, started wars in order to spread islam, bin laden just shared the beliefs of this original group. The same applies to christians, the only difference is that the christians don't have any crusaders left...The war on terror is actually a war on a specific group of muslims, the last muslim "crusaders"...

Yawn ...

  you got yourself trapped in the old and boring corner of circular reasoning: "morality is defined by humans"! So are god and religions my friend, from a humanist point of view, which you are.

Try again.

 For an Islamic democracy

Rostam

 رستم هم رستمای قدیم نه رستمای باسمه‌ای امروزی

زین همرهان سست عناصر دلم گرفت

شیر خدا و رستم دستانم آرزوست

 For an Islamic democracy

Sigh...

Morality is defined by humans, not by god or religions... It's like saying if religion would not have existed then people would not have known that e.g. killing is wrong.... Even animals have some moral based on instincts...

"religion offers morality

"religion offers morality but science knows no morality."

Science is like the forces of nature, oblivious to both morality and immorality. Most religions on the other hand were the main source of "immorality" since they came into existance.

Furthermore, we have many kind of religions. I dont' opppose them all. I oppose your fanatic bakcwarded and bankrupt version.

bi savaad ham ke hasti...

You did not answer my question. If today an Iranian who is disgusted at the mollahs join a US "full invasion" of Iran and give logistic information to the US against Iran, is that person an Iranian, or someone who was just born in Iran?

You can turn as many stones as you want, it shall remain that Salman Farsi was a traitor and that you don't agree with this view. If I am wrong, then please correct me.

P.S. I much prefer to be lost than to be a bi hoviat homeless Iranian moslem. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Islam itself. My grand mother was a lovely moselm, so are they many other Iranian moslems. It is "your" type of garbage bankrupt political Islam that I oppose.

halaa to hey tooye zobaaleh daanie tarikh dasto paa bezan. hich chiz avaz nemisheh.

hirre

Ironically I agree with you, the end game is (and has been) a battle between religion and science, and guess what, rso far eligion has won! I can't see the day that the science can beat religion even if it is for one reason and one reason alone: religion offers morality but science knows no morality.

For an Islamic democracy

Rostam

Yous asked a question:

So does the corrupt Shi'a priests of Iran who ruled our country and their relentless persecutions of other faiths justify other Iranians to embrace Christianity and a US attack against Iran?

Can't you see that you are effectively proving my point? Have you seen that thousands of Iranian migrants who fled to the western countries converted to christianity? Look at yourself. Were you a born zoroasterian? Your disgust of the Islamc republic has drived you o change yoru name or choose the name of the mythical zoroasterian hero Rostam. How many more Iranian have turned to Zoroasterianism, Bahaism and indeed Christianism?  

And why the hypothetical US attach on Iran is connected to this debate? Do they want to covert Iranians to Chrsitians? Salman, who according to you turned agaisnt Iranians (which is wrong, he only turned against Zoroasterian Velayate Faghih) is not the same as a Jew who defends Hitler. The latter did not have any intention of saving the Jews from their faith. He simply wanted them killed.

You my friend are completely lost I am afraid.

 For an Islamic democracy

David ET

Just name a few articles from UDHR which contradict Islam's teachings

 For an Islamic democracy

Hehe...

It's useless to debate any further, because at the end it boils down to religion vs science/atheism...

In order to justify the

In order to justify the betrayal of Salman Farsi, you wrote:

"was it not for the corrput Zoroasterian preista who ruled the empire like the fanatic mullahs in today's Iran and their relentless persecutiion of other faiths particularly the Manichaens, Salman Farsi had probably not sought and embraced Islam."

So does the corrupt Shi'a priests of Iran who ruled our country and their relentless persecutions of other faiths justify other Iranians to embrace Christianity and a US attack against Iran?

Who is selective now? You are a Moslem, but not an Iranian; you were only born in Iran. Anyone who defends Salam Farsi is like a Jew who would defend Hitler, a piece of garbage with no country.

salman

Islam is what it is independent of what I or anyone including muslims say. My comment was about Islam based on its teaching and not about what to do with Muslims.

Muslims should have as much right as any other human being.

My reference was based on universal articles of human rights and not based on my own definition and Islam contradicts so many of such rights. 

Now that Osama Bin Laden has

Now that Osama Bin Laden has been killed and his compound ransacked, the terrorist rats such as Hezbillah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas all merceneries and agents of the Islamic Rapistist republic that are occupying Iran and killing the Iranian nation, will be fleeing for cover. They have now realized that justice will be served no matter how long it will take.Hope the Americans can pick a few more off before the dust settles.

Now who is a romantic hirre?

If that's what makes you happy, don't let anyone disturb you but the time moves and can't wait for you and those who like you think that Islam was forced upon them 1400 years ago, I know it is very disturbing for some to accept that zoroasteriansm class system was so applaingly discriminative that drove Iranians to embrace Islam which had no class system. But if you want to continue with your romantic version of history be my guest my friend.

You also seem to be obsessed with ayatollahs. Does the name Ali Shariati ring a bell?

 For an Islamic democracy

Wrong again.

Ultimately it is not I that will judge you, it's your fellow brothers at the top (ayatollahs and so on), and they have a different view... In this modern age, you can not change islam without becoming a grand ayatollah. Earlier in history it was possible for people to change what we now call islam because it wasn't a religion back then, just remember how the sunni and shite movements started, it was rather a diversity in leadership than a spiritual conflict between different interpretations...

Once again, see islam for what it is (old and not for this age) instead of trying to romanticizing it...The mafia is also very interesting and attractive when you try to romanticize it (just see the Godfather movies)...

Be smart, create your own faith, but don't romantisize others...However you want to look at it, islam was once forced upon us iranians a very long time ago in history...If you would have seen with your own eyes what the arabs did in order to enforce islam on the iranians centuries ago you would not have embraced it simply because of human rights reasons... Religion is/was a tool for controlling the masses. It was a much effecient tool centuries ago, now it is fighting desperately to reshape in order to stay in some sort of control...

Reply to some of the comments

Soosan Khanoom

Thanks for your comment and advice. I agree with you completely.

David ET

The language you used (i.e. Islam is at awar with freedom) is hardly the language of inclusion democracy. Is this the kind of selective democracy that you are dreaming up for Iran of the future? Last century a little fascist also suggested that the jews were encroaching upon rights of the freedom loving aryans. We all know what happened next! 

I m deeply disppointed in you.

Incorrect Rostam!

I am an Iranian-Mulism and as for your revised version of history let me say that was it not for the corrput Zoroasterian preista who ruled the empire like the fanatic mullahs in today's Iran and their relentless persecutiion of other faiths particularly the Manichaens, Salman Farsi had probably not sought and embraced Islam.

Hirre

You too are an interpreter of Islam (judging by your choice of verse from Qu'an) but don't worry without interpreting a faith that faith cannot progress. What you are saying is accept Islam at face value and do not interpret it. Your views has some following too, They are called Taliban and in its more organized shape, Al-Qaeda!

One more correction; Those men who shaped and changed a faith were initailly men of the "street". They were not born as ayatollahs and grand scholars. So please don't make up stories.

 For an Islamic democracy

False statements...

The problem with islam is that its leaders (e.g. real ayatollas, other scholars and so on (not random internet blog posters) ) are not mature enough to critisize the religion.

Christianity on the other hand has become so mature that the majority of its leaders have turned the page and confessed that some parts of the teachings are too old and not modern and that the leaders of the religion made horrible mistakes in the past (even the latest popes have said this)...

Now tell me, which serious greater moslem leader critisizes other islamic leaders during the history of islam? Who will critisize Mohammed the prophet? Who will point out the outdated parts of the quran?... All that is happening right now is that some ignorant people trying to romanticize outdates parts of the quran (or sharia laws), giving them other interpretations than what is actually being said...

Islam is defined by its leaders and scholars, not by random street people trying (although with good intentions) to reform the movement. If the street people would be allowed to define a religion then islam would be split in "1000" parts...

The majority of the leaders (grand ayatollahs, mullahs and scholars) must reform the religion, until that day comes, nothing will change...

Religious people who find out that their religion contains hate, outdated beliefs and other issues against humanity have basically three choices:

1) Rejecting their faith and finding new truths.

2) Continuing believing...

3) Romanticizing and creating other interpretations.

The sad thing is that most moderate religious people choose 3) instead of becoming something new...

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -" 

2:2 Quran

What a name as an ID

The greatest traitor of Iran's history: Salman Farsi. Your choice of ID speaks volumes about where your loyalties are. You are no Iranian. You are fist a Moslem and second a moslem and third a moslem too, and lastly and Iranian. These are your orders of priorities, correct?

salman

i am not at war but defending freedom and human rights.

Rea

agree one hundred percent.

Must say though

There is no such a thing as islamic democracy. And there is no such a thing as catholic democracy.

There is democracy, full stop. The rest is little garden people.

Sosan Khanoom

You could not be more wrong. I fear that your political correctness has clouded your judgement. The act of the Bin Laden replicated the actions of Prophet Mohammed. 

Please refer to the 624 Battle of Quraysh which was Mohammed killing a whole Jewish tribe, executing (decaptiating) the men of the tribe  and then selling the children into slavery. Reason: Because the Jews rejected Mohammed and told the Two Bit Thief to stop raiding their caravans. Mohammed's response? Pre-emptive strike against the Jews because the Angel Gabriel visited him in a dream and told him he would be betrayed.

BTW.Ayatoliet .Khomeini referred to Mohammed's delusional 'Angel Gabriel'  dream when he ordered the prison purges of 1988.

Mohammed's crazy slaughter and rampage against Jews did not stop there when Mohammed raided the Qurayzah tribe and evicted them (that's ethnic cleansing to you!). 

You see, Sosan jan - and I mean this in the politest way possible- you need to accept facts as they happened even though the truth offends the religion of a billion people worldwide.  

Hope sharks had a feast

For he deserved no better.

Bin Laden was at war with Islam

 indeed Muslims were not only victims of his terrorism, but were also subject of harassment by several governments around the world in Airports as well as employment and ordinary life acts. All thanks to him and fanatic radical people who call themsleves muslims .....

Now Salman nothing anyone can say to change the mind of neocon evangelists tea baggers Iranian at IC ...... don't even bother  !!

How about you David ET?

Who are you at war with?

Are you at war with Islam?

 For an Islamic democracy

Islam is at war

with freedom

من علمنی حرفا، قدصیرنی عبدا

Thanks for the correction.

You're right...It must have something to do with the site.