For an Islamic Democracy

Dear LC, thanks for your comment addressed to me

As you noted in your comment addressed to Mash Ghassem, it would be great if you can post blogs about Hafez on IC.

  مش قاسم

مش قاسم عزیزم

با نهایت تشکر از لطف بی‌ کران شما که از این کوچک دعوت فرمودید تا درباره حافظ مطالبی‌ بنویسم باید عرض کنم که ایکاش بضأعت فرهنگی‌ چنین امر مهمی‌ را می‌‌داشتم. این کوچک حافظ را به طور سنتی‌ و در مکتب معلمینی آموختم که هریک در فن خویش استاد بودند و اگر بخواهم به درستی‌ اجر آنان را به جا آورم می‌‌بایست که دست کم به پای ایشان می‌‌رسیدم که این توفیق را نداشته ام. امیدوارم بتوانم در فرصتی مناسب گوشه هایی از آموخته‌های خویش را به علاقمندان عرضه کنم.
با سپاس مجدد از شما دوست مهربانم

ناقد

Dear Anahid

Thank you for your response to my comment. I must agree with you that HFB generated renewed interest in Hafez and this was one of its most commendable impacts. However, there were occasions that certain friends, like Dr Azadeh Azad, who is a well educated lady, asked questions and were not satisfied by the answers they were given. I am not suggesting by any means that Ms Mirfenderesky was not qualified to answer such questions but perhaps due to the limits that she had defined for her HFB blogs (e.g. beginners' level and using Enlish as the medium of communication) such questions could not be aswered properly.

You also compared HFB with economics courses like economics 101. I must draw your attention to the fact that these courses are prerequisite for understanding the theories of such great thinkers as John Stuart Mill and Karl Marx. One needs to pass economics or politics 101 before one can seriously understand the works of such masters as Mill and Marx. Jumping directly into Das Capital  or reading from the popular series "Marx for Idiots" (if you excuse my example) may be good enough for an after dinner speech or a "show off" but cannot provide an accurate and indepth knowledge of the subject. To have a meaningful understading of Hafez one should pass such basic (101) courses as Persian literature, Persian grammar, Persian history (Hafez era), Persian Mysticism, Islamic philosophy, basic Qur'an and dare I say, basic Arabic. Hafez himself mastered all these topics before putting pen on paper and composing his Divan. I think we too need to do our homework before setting about to understand Hafez.

I hope you found my response useful.

With regards

LC

When thou seest men engaged

When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.  (The Noble Quran, 6:68)"

It's all relative...Quran teaches us to engage in many vain discourse, including killing infidels and subjugating your women or racist notions such as Dar-al-harb vas Dar-al-Islam, just to mention a few...

آقای سلمان فارسی

بلاگر داریم تا بلاگر.  خیلی از بلاگرها روی سایت ایرانیان دات کام در اصل چُسی بلاگر هستن.  این یعنی می خوان یه چیزی بنویسن اونهم به انگلیسی و یه خورده چُسی بیان که یه چیزی بلدن.  بعد هم یه سری دیگه باید کامنت بزارن که با حرفهای طرف مخالفند.  اصلاً این رو وب لاگ نویسی نمی گن.  اینجا یک چت روم برای یک عده پاورقی نویسه!

اگه می خوای روی این سایت دوتا مقاله درست و حسابی ببینی، برگرد به مقاله های 13 سال پیش.  از سال 2001 به این طرف هیچی به جز چُسی بلاگ نخواهی دید.  وقتی آگهی برای استخدام مترجم ارتش آمریکا می زارن معناش اینه که هر چیزی در این سایت ممکنه برای اینکه صورتحساب آخر ماه رو پرداخت کنن.  هرکی به یک تور مسافرتی رفته دوازده هزار قطعه عکس باید آپلود کنه که خواننده ها همه گلهای میدون اون شهری که رفته رو ببینن.  در مورد مقاله هایی هم که در ارتباط با ایران منتشر میشه تحقیقات درش پیدا نمی شه و اگر راننده تاکسی های ایران در اینجا قلم میزدن خیلی مطالب جالبتر بود.  یک نفر از نویسنده های 10 سال پیش رو دیگه روی این سایت نمی بینی.  دو سه نفری هم که اسم بردی به نظر من بهتره خودشون رو با این آب پرتقال فروشی معطل نکنن. 

همون بهتر که در ایران این سایت فیلتره که مردم علاف یک سری چُسی بلاگر نمی شن. هر قانونی هم برای این سایت بزارن دیگه مثل گذشته نمی شه و باید با همین جفنگییات خوش بود.  

Faramarz

Comment count is not indication of quality. I can rally friends to join IC, I could write average articles and get them to tarof with me. Some quality blogs do not get comments at all. And some confrontational gossipy blogs get many due to riling people. So comment count and quality do not go hand in hand.

She was no more obstinate than any other regular here. HFB remained civil to people who were giving her a very harsh "initiation" into IC and at other times. There are people here who are rude to people who criticise their blogs but the crowds let this pass because of relationships or because they are established bloggers who have been here a long time.

As for objectivity, I have to disagree. You will have to accept that there are many people (Iranians) out there who hold different values. Many women want to wear hijab and are nice people with it!

Brother Yaroo and sister Yolanda

Sorry I missed your comments.

Brother Yaroo

I advise you not to stay in such gardens I can smell their stench through my computer screen.

Sister Yolanda

Thanks for your comment.

 For an Islamic democracy

Response to some comments

Dear Brother Mola

You are absolutely right. Thank you for your suppostive words.

 Dear Sister Soosan Khanoom 

You are right too my dear sister. Thanks for your words.

Brother Framarz

Sister Afsaneh stood for her principles. Otherwise she understood everything very well brother.

Brother/Sister Shepesh

I am not sure what you are talking about

Sister Anahid

Thank you for your explanation.

Brother/Sister Literary Critic

Hafez CAN be understood by beginners that is how I learned it,

Brother Ghasem

You carry on with your familiar words which mean nothing in my vocabulary.

Brother Divaneh

You are the same as Ghasem but without humor :)

Sister vildemose,

Mark Twain may have said many things but our Noble Quran contains many references to good behavior:

"When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.  (The Noble Quran, 6:68)"

vassalaam.

 For an Islamic democracy

شیپیش

I went back and looked at all her posts and here is what I saw.

On average she drew around 4-5 comments per post and a chunk of them were her own and towards the end she had more and more of her own comments there which is generally a cry for attention. She also drew around 400-500 comments per post (with the exception of the ones that had to do with Hejab, Iranian of the Day and FIFA). So in that regard, you are correct. The number of hits on her Hafez blogs remained relatively stable and I do acknowledge that.

Now, as far as lack of objectivity goes, there is a difference between teaching and preaching. And my experience has been that the more people learn the more they realize how much they don't know which makes them humble. So in the course of a give and take, if one acknowledges some of the valid arguments that the other party is making, then there is a glimmer of objectivity and room for further discussions. But if one sticks to her talking points and keep repeating them like a preacher and then run away when she is not getting her way, there is no objectivity there.

I saw her lack of objectivity in her blogs about Burqa, Iranian of the Day and the FIFA ban.

.

Apparently

The worst thing to say to someone on this site is that you are an IRI supporter which is a politically correct way of saying fuck you .......

Now some people take it and some just prefer to leave

I am relatively new here but reading various blogs similar to this one has made it clear to me that there were many valuable contributors on IC who have left due to that reason alone ...

if IC members keep treating anyone who disagrees with them like this then this site should simpily change its name from

"Iranian.com"

to

"either-you-r-with-us-or-...com"

...

They are back,

the Lynch Mob,

the ones with big the mouths

and little brains.

The smoking one representing Israel's Likude party

And the other one dreaming of Stalin, lost in the cyber space.

Brothers Sal & Mol: Maybe if two of you denounced this evil

ideology of yours called Izlam, stopped wishing death and destruction upon the kind and peaceful people of Israel, and became truly civilized then people may stop by to read your non-sense blogs.

In the meantime, both of you are and will be subjected to ridicules made by great bloggers such as Shazdeh!

...

Mola you obtuse obfuscator. If you had the vaguest  idea on how to teach poetry, let alone Persian poetry, let alone Hafez you might have had a remote idea as to the substance of this exchange. But  all you're made up for is obfuscation, so carry on , in your ignorant ways.

Mola, I would not call it lynching

But since she is not here to respond to comments about her, it may be better to focus on general idea of blog rather than just on HFB. But I guess the problem will happen with any other blogger who is not here. If we just write negative about them, they may not be able to respond. Especially since they may not even know there is something written about them.

...

So as you can see brother Salman,

The 'Lynch Mob' on this website are at it again.

Acting like a pack of hungry wolves,

lynching HFB again at her abstentia. 

Vildemose

فال حافظ رو باز کردم جواب افسانه خانوم این اومد:

یوسف گمگشته بازآید به کنعان غم مخور

کلبه احزان شود روزی گلستان غم مخور

ای دل غمدیده حالت به شود دل بد مکن

وین سر شوریده بازآید به سامان غم مخور

.........

I agree with Truthseeker9 and Faramarz! I hope the lady is happy!

At the end, she had her

At the end, she had her swan song, like a spoiled six-year old who is not getting her way and decided to go to her room and lock the door!

What would Hafez do??

I couldn't say it better Faramarz

To my knowledge, no one was ever disrespectful to HFB but she just did not like her opinion to be chllenged.

Dear Literary Critic

Thanks for your comments . More or less I had the same feelings about our Hafez student. And it's not polite to speak on some one who's not here but, always felt her Hafez was a bit on the pedestrain side. They used Shamlo's Edition: not a good choice, or a good sign. But as they say Kachi Baz Hichi.

So, in the spirit of by gones are by gones and a continuation of Hafez I humbly suggest that you, if you may, start or initiate a Hafez blog. Have a feeling it'll be much better informed with the correct edition, cheers

Faramarz ,

When I look at history of HFB with IC, at least for me,  I remmeber that although I did not share her political opinions, I enjoyed her Hafez blogs. That is just my opinion.

Dear Literary critic, I have to disagree with you

I think by having a blog like Hafez For Beginners, one can generate more interest in reading Hafez poetry. Blogs were not all in English. There were translations provided for Hafez poetry. May be what was needed was to offer more lines of Hafez poetry. Words which are often used by Hafez in his poetry can be explained to beginners and their meanings as different experts see it, can be discussed, which was done in Afsaneh' s blogs .  May be if she had not left, she could have done more.

Not everyone has to get 100% of a poem. No one can get 100% of Hafez poems but Hafez. Rest of people can get parts of it. When a course such as an Economics 101 is taught, goal is not to make students a great economist after taking that one course but teaching them some basic concepts and more importantly create in them the interest to take more classes, do self study and whatever it takes to learn more about economics. Still, some people just take that one class. HFB blogs can be taught in the same way. At least , that is how I look at them. 

Don’t Cry for Me Argentina!

I wouldn’t call Hafez for Beginners a “quality blog” and I won’t shed any tears for her temper tantrums either.  Here are 3 examples, and as hard as it might be, try to put your prejudices aside and look at them objectively.

First there was a blog where she expressed her opinions about Hafez rather strongly and when others on this site challenged her interpretations, she basically said that she is a “teacher” of Hafez as if she is in a privileged position to tell everyone else what the right meaning of Hafez poetry is. And then when she was challenged on her “teaching” credentials, she became defensive and accusatory.

In my opinion, there are many talented and accomplished bloggers on this site who never claim that they have the inside track to Hafez or Rumi’s poetry and philosophy, but she thought that she did and I believe that she alienated many readers. And if you look at the history of her blogs going back to last August when she joined the site, there are no Farsi blogs (which is very unusual for a Hafez aficionado) and she generally drew a handful of comments which I believe was the core of her dissatisfaction (lack of attention!)

Then there was her blog about lingerer models being featured as the Iranians of the Day. Many of us tried to explain to her that the tradition of the Iranian of the day on this site has really nothing to do with one’s scientific/educational/social contributions to the society, but rather it is a light-hearted recognition of Iranians in the news, be it a model, a criminal or whatever else that you could imagine. She never understood that either.

Finally there was her 2 blogs about Iranian women soccer team that was banned by FIFA. Despite many comments and reasonable attempts to enlighten her with facts, she just held her ground and repeated her baseless accusations without any attempts to engage the opposing views. She even compared me to her emotional relatives! I've been called worse!

At the end, she had her swan song, like a spoiled six-year old who is not getting her way and decided to go to her room and lock the door!

Dear Mr. Salman Farsi:

Blogs are like a garden of flowers. Some of the them have beautiful scents and some don't! I just read the following beautiful blog yesterday.

//iranian.com/main/blog/shazde-asdola-mirza-8...

The oldest form of deceit

Very simple, you start with assuming a false assumption to be true. The outcome of the debate will be irrelevant.

By the way there was a debate about your favourite topic recently but I did not see any contribution from you. Here is the link in case you missed it.

//iranian.com/main/blog/diba/islam-compatible-any-form-democracy

Hafez is NOT for beginners

I was perhaps the last person who had a small contribution to the last blog of Ms Mirfendereski (that blog is now deleted) by answering to the poetry challenge she had asked in that blog. I believe my answer was the only correct answer but in less than an hour after I posted my answer, she removed the blog. I hope I had not been the cause of it.    

I too regret the fact that the blogger, Ms Mirfendereski, has left this site, if indeed that proves to be the case. But while I applauded her contributions, I knew that she was up against an impossible task. Hafez's poetry is not something that can be understood by, or taught to, the beginner. To suggest that Hfez can be taught, in a foreign language such as English, to a bunch of novice enthusiasts is akin to suggest that a group of toddlers can be trained to run for a marathon!

Hefez, same as Rumi, Sa'adi, Ferdowsi and many of the Persian literary greats, did not write their poetries for common people. True that their work is enjoyed by commoners and the literary elite alike but the message that each of these groups get is different. Frankly I think teaching Hafez to beginners is not doing justice to Hafez.

Thank you my brother Mola

I am pleased to have passed the tests :)

 For an Islamic democracy

...

Brother salman,

you've stated:

"As for myself, I have been the target of much abusive comments and even threats on this site."

With your above confession as our proof, We pronounce you a full member of iranian dotcom. 

Brother Salman, you've earned your full membership.

Congratulation and Welcome! 

Mart Twain's quote on use of profanity in writing

 sent down...and hired an artist by the week to sit up nights and curse that stranger, and give me a lift occasionally in the daytime when I came to a hard place.
- "A Mysterious Visit"

The idea that no gentleman ever swears is all wrong. He can swear and still be a gentleman if he does it in a nice and benevolent and affectionate way.
- Private and Public Morals speech, 1906

When angry count four; when very angry, swear.
- Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

There ought to be a room in every house to swear in. It's dangerous to have to repress an emotion like that.
- Mark Twain, a Biography

Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
- Mark Twain, a Biography

...he was empty. You could have drawn a seine through his system and not caught curses enough to disturb your mother.
- Life on the Mississippi

I was...blaspheming my luck in a way that made my breath smell of brimstone.
- Roughing It

...quadrilateral, astronomical, incandescent son-of-a-bitch.
- Letter to William Dean Howells, 13 February 1903

When you're mad, count four; when you're very mad, swear! But most of us don't wait to count four! at least I don't!
- quoted in A Lifetime with Mark Twain: The Memories of Katy Leary

Her eyes blazed up, and she jumped for him like a wild-cat, and when she was done with him she was rags and he wasn't anything but an allegory.
- "A Horse's Tale"

He didn't utter a word, but he exuded mute blasphemy from every pore.
- Autobiography of Mark Twain, (bowling alley story)

The spirit of wrath and not the words--is the sin; and the spirit of wrath is cursing. We begin to swear before we can talk.
- Following the Equator

When it comes down to pure ornamental cursing, the native American is gifted above the sons of men.
- Roughing It

Let us swear while we may, for in Heaven it will not be allowed.
- Notebook, 1898

If I cannot swear in heaven I shall not stay there.
- Notebook, 1898

//www.twainquotes.com/Profanity.html