Simorgh5555

Well Souri

I don't know if you are right or wrong. I am not here to judge for what SIDE is everybody. I just don't want blood shed from my hamvatan. I'd rather loose all the money of the country but not to sacrifice even one innocent life, just for what I, think is better for them.

You should have thought of it when you supported the overthrow of the Shah. Right now we are losing both. Nation is losing its money and lives of the people. This will keep going on til the IRI is gone. Probably by force. You don't like what you are hearing. You rather have Iranians be robots who stand behind this revolution.

Well sorry to pop the bubble. People do not want the Mollahs. Specially the ones living in Iran under the tyranny. It is easy for you to run off to Canada; live in safety and lecture us on how much people love Islamism and Mollah. The only problem is: the Iranian people do not agree.

VPK, I'm tired of your mozakhraf speech....

Told you, you are just saying chert o pert, without listening.

I'm out! Gave up!

Simorgh

I know what you say and believe me I am so much frustrated. But thinking about us as a doctor and the Iranian our patient, it's too offensive to them. I'm afraid this would make us more dictatorial than the IRI themselves! At least they, are living inside of the country..... and what if our diagnostic is wrong? The medication is not the right one? Did you think about that?

I don't know if you are right or wrong. I am not here to judge for what SIDE is everybody. I just don't want blood shed from my hamvatan. I'd rather loose all the money of the country but not to sacrifice even one innocent life, just for what I, think is better for them.

Souri

But I always said: let them decide for what they really want. Nobody outside of Iran can know better what is good for Iran. Only they, can know what they want and what they need and why and when! It is pointless to try pushing the people, when they are not still ready.

I *am* one of them and I have my vote. All nations including IRI recognize the fact that nationals may be in or out of the country. This business about "only the ones in Iran" is manufactured by those who do not want the voice of Iranians outside. Why: because outside we may speak without fear. Did you feel this about the "student" protest against the Shah in USA in the 70s? I have a right to my opinion and not being in Iran does not take that away. My opinion is that IRI must go.

By the way I had some visitors from Iran recently. They wer *begging* us to ask our representatives to have USA start BOMBING the IRI. I was shocked to hear it. They were a hundred times more "tired" of the Mollahs than I am. They have to live with them. At least I try to understand the poor people of Iran who go through this. Maybe you should listen to Iranians. My anecdotal evidence is that at least a few of them just as soon have the USA attack and remove the Mollahs by force.

You Souri are the one who does not listen. You have it in your head that people love the IRI. Anything other than that gets you all riled up. One minute we are all Iranians. Next minute you say only the ones in Iran have a right to an opinion.

Souri

Well, I do not want  to wait until all of the resources of the country are wasted and sold off to pay for Mr Rafsanjani and his family. I am not going to wait until more and more impriosned, stoned, executed, raped or beaten to a pulp. They are even selling the countries national treasure and building water reservoirs which threaten the Cyrus's tomb in Pasaargad. If the majority of Iranians have been terrified into submission then their opinions do not count, I am afraid. Think of us as a doctor. Iran is the patient.

I think people of Iran are intelligent

I think they are very smart and intelligent and also I think they are in the process of understanding the true democracy. This is what I think honestly. But I always said: let them decide for what they really want. Nobody outside of Iran can know better what is good for Iran. Only they, can know what they want and what they need and why and when! It is pointless to try pushing the people, when they are not still ready. You want to force things, because you are tired of this situation. They are the ones who are enduring the problems, but you want they go faster than this. You want to decide for them. You want RP goes there and make things happen for you! Your dream!  Only you! You are here and you want things for them, regardless of who they truly are and what they truly want.........Or do you really care about what the majority want in Iran?

That's all I have to say about that.

...And no, you still didn't learn to listen to the people. Because otherwise, you would have understood that, I don't have any siding opinion. I have my own logic and I walk on a very straight line, which sometimes seems to be closer to the pro-IRI supporter and sometimes to the other group of Iranians. After all, we are all Iranian, we all love our country, no matter from what angle we look at things.
But you, on the contrary, you don't believe this can be true. Only the ones who agree with your opinion, are the true Iranians and love their country. That's your problem, not mine. I am not afraid of being in tune with anybody who thinks about Iran, as long as it fits  my own logical views. There's no side for me!

Otherwise, I wouldn't say RP has the best approach. I would say he is a charlatan, like many pro-IRI would say about  him.

Souri

I am not trying to distort what you are saying. It just seems to me that you inevitably side with the pro-IRI and pro -Islamist point of view. That is all.

Regarding political maturity. Iranians are no less ready for democracy than anyone. For God's sake watch the American elections. People are gullible; simply impressed; go for flashy ads; are influenced by clergy; respond to money and are generally ignorant. If Americans are ready then ANYONE is ready.

Regarding RP: I like what he says alright? 

Regarding what you think of me: You are welcome to your opinion. First of all I am very calm. Just had a nice bath and am looking forward to a nice dinner. If I were any calmer I would be comatose. Second: I listen and I read. However I am not gullible. I base my opinion on facts which I have provided. You do not like them so you dismiss them.

I do not base my opinion anecdotal evidence: Just facts.

IRI Propaganda

No one in Iran believes the IRI propaganda any more. The only ones buying it are "Western" far left wing. Iranian people were never big on buying propaganda. Now even less than before.

If a leader wants IRI gone it is not "declaring war". That is just word play to associate them with "attack Iran" types. It won't work because it is BS. If RP were to raise to leadership he will have his own message or "propaganda" except his will be true.

Either you don't get what I say

Or you are intentionally distorting my statement, just to proclaim you hate of the "left" ideology. Cool down.

I'm the one who asked this question first: Who is to say what they need?

I said (and I've always said this since I'm posting in this site) the people of Iran should decide by themselves, what they need....

Simorgh said he thinks that the population is not politically mature and doesn't know what they want. So I said, it is for the same reason that I say, we have to wait until they exactly know what they want.

You know what I think about you VPK? It's a long while I gave  up on you, because you don't know how to listen! You just want to talk! Never learn to listen...............So it doesn't surprise me that you think the population of Iran wants exactly what you have decided that they should want for themselves.

Ciao

Souri

The reason that I am a ney sayer according to you, is for the same
reason that Simorgh mentioned here below. This population is not yet
politically mature to know what they want, or better yet : what they
need!

This statement to me is all you really need to say. You have no respect for the Iranian people. Who is to say what they need? A bucnh of Mollahs who have the worst in mind for Iran? It this the best in your point of view.

This way of thinking is the basis of some left wing totaletarian ideology not just in Iran but all over the world. It is the ideology of a society where people are told by "Big Brother" what to think. No thanks I opt out.

Souri

I will just repond to one thing in this post: Reglion.

• Many Iranians are religious; but that does not mean they support Mollahs. Nor do they support IRI brand of Islamism. The Iranians you are talking about tend to be the older generation. The majority is youth. Why is it that all reports show marjid attendence down. Are the reports all made up?
• Iranians who leave Iran don't go for hijab as their primary goal. Many go to get away from repression or for economic reasons. They simply show their lack of desire to follow sharia once they get the chance. Most Iranians specially youth will grab a chance to leave the IRI. This is a fact; just watch what people go through to get away from it.

PS,

I do not believe you regret the 1979 revolution or consider it a mistake. You supported it please be honest. You are opposed to an overthrow of IRI aren't you?

Simorgh

What you said here is correct:

"A secular government , however, does not mean being anti-Islamic in any
way and it is impossible to stop people believing what they want to" 

We all know it. But again, you are looking at the picture from the eye of a Western Citizen Intellectual.....

Think about the moment that a war is declared to the IRI, from a Western resident opponent. Think of what would be the propaganda against that leaders and his movement, by the IRI? Can you promise that it won't influence the majority of the Muslim population of Iran? Where people still believe that the God has elected their Valih Faghih and his president? Where people still believes that Mahdi will come to free the whole universe ? Where Mahdi is now living in a well ?

What you can say to the people who walk miles of distances with nude feet to sharaf-yabi to Hazrat Reza in Mash'had? That you, as an Iranian-American, think the best thing for them is a Secular government? Do they know what Secular means? The only thing they know is Islam. you should learn to talk their language.

Sorry, I think I'm still not clear enough.

Souri

Thank you very much Souri Khanoum.

I may be deeply opposed to Islam but I realise that a lot of Iranians may not be. By this I mean there is still deference towards Islam even if a lot of people are not practising it. A secular government , however, does not mean being anti-Islamic in any way and it is impossible to stop people believing what they want to. However, most young Iranians are enamoured with Western culture, satelite TV, fashion ,music, football, David Bekham and Steven Spielberg. They are polar opposites of Islamic beliefs. You can see this in the shopping malls in Tehran to their behaviour at home. I am not sure whether we are talking about the same Iranian youth or not. Any branwashing would wither away with democracy and the dissemination of free information. We saw this in the Soviet Union. 

You are right that the Greens referred to Islamic imagery and slogans to give validity to their cause. You are also right about a lot of them shouting, "Allah o akbar" but how much of this was genuine? People could hardly shout "Death to Khamenenei" and "Death to the Islamic Republic" and so they shouted "Death to the Dictator" instead.  No one is naive enough to pretend they did not understad why they omitted any reference to the name of the dictator for fear of death or imprisonment. Or both. The Green movement was really an entity which most people identified with so they can vent their frustration. Hell, if I was in Iran lats summer, I also would have shouted, "Mousavi" and "Allaho Akbar" if it was a means to an end.  

Yes. I am frustrated and angry. But I have a right to be. The trouble is Iranians will never agree on what the right thing is but any sane Iranian would agree this regime is wrong. I just want it removed. 

Khorasani, Baa ye gol bahaar nemishe!

"Let us not get ahead of ourselves Kharmagas jan"

Yes, prophet jaan, baa ye gol bahar nemishe, even if the Shahis make you the Shah, they have only one good-natured guy, ..., their Shah!

VPK

You said:

"If Iranians are so "Islamic" then why do Iranians take off the hijab as
soon as they step outside of IRR control? Why do half Iranian Americans
leave Islam? Who do a large number of remaining "Muslims" never practice
it? Why do I never hear of any Iranian I know pray 5 times a day or
fast? Why do Iranians not go to Masjid?"

Simply because you only see what you want to see. There is another half of the buttle, hidden in the profound heart of the country, which you don't see because you don't want to see it. Because what you see in the surface, please you suffitiently to make your point.

I, for one, know lots of people who were not reglious at all, leave alone practicing Islamic rituals, but now they have became the very true fanatic of Islam. What part of Iranian women take off their hijab as soon as they step outside? The ones who come out of the IRI just for this. Then you are surprised why they do this? What's your logic?

The Iranian inside of Iran (not the Iranian-Americans) now go to Masjid, do 5 times/day prayer, fast in Ramadan and sometimes in other time of the year,  lots of rituals like sofre of this and that Seyed and Seyedeh is now popular that I haven't even heard the name while I was in Iran....and believe me, I swear that I don't come from a very fanatic muslim family. My own mother has never did prayer or fasting until the age of 55 (1990) then now she is a real true supporter of Khomeini, voted AhmadiNejad and never delay her prayer, even when she is at the hospital! So are many people from my big family. People whom I can't even bleive they have changed so much. That family which was mostly a party and club going, has changed completely or mostly. Even the youngster, are now under the influence of the religious education and you can't do nothing about that. Sorry, ignoring a fact, never makes it removed....

And please stay calm. No matter what YOU do like or not, I'm always honest and don't care about who likes or not like what I say.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Nobody asked you to listen or talk to me!
The reason that I am a ney sayer according to you, is for the same reason that Simorgh mentioned here below. This population is not yet politically mature to know what they want, or better yet : what they need!
We did the same mistakes once, 30 years ago, not to repeat it again!!!

Simorgh

Thanks for your honest response. Some points are to be reviewd here:

1) "I am not sure whether I entirely agree that most Iranians are
pro-Islamic. The demonstrations last year seem to suggest otherwise"

I don't agree. The Green's demonstration last year, showed only that the young people were against the dictatorship....but supported another Islamic leader. Don't forget that the main subject for the demostration was the votes for Mousavi! The slogan were mostly: allah-o-akbar, Mousavi hemayatat mikonim, Nasr-o-menallah v fathan gharib...etc. So there was always a bold element of Islam in there. 

2) "You have to also remember that 70 % of the population of Iran are under 30 and therefore do not share the religious ferver"

This is this same population under 30 who is most Islamist than the rest of them. Don't underestimate the Islamic education and brainwashing the youngsters for 32 years.....and on another note, I believe we have to wait for those under 30s percentage, grow up to become more mature and responsible. Only a mature and responsible mass, can afford a true and essential movment.

3) "as incredibly arrogant as this sounds, I am beyonf caring what the Iranian people think anymore....They do not know who their frends are and they don't know who their enemies are. 
."

I wouldn't call you arrogant (I'm a nice person :))

But I'd say you are too frustrated, disappointed and mostly Utopian. Most of the time this is the two former states which cause the latter one.....and unfortunately you are not alone in this state of mind. Most of us, the forced immigrants are in the same basket. Mostly because we are hearing the amplified news from Iran, and also the  fact that, living under a democratic constitution, gives us an element of "comparison" which makes double frustration for us. Most of us, were living under a very restricted and backward constitution even at the time of Shah, but we didn't know it. We were used to it, like our parents were used to it. When the revolution happened, many of our values have been shaken. We have been forced to see things from another angle. With this, already having its toll on our moral, we also been forced to emigrate to a land with completely different values. Now, we are wondering why we didn't have all this, in our own country? We want it there and now!! That's what make us frustrated and somehow Utopian......

4) "Reza Pahlavi should do the "right thing". This is not a "popularity"contest....

And what is this RIGHT THING? Who says that what YOU WANT, is the RIGHT thing for the country? Who knows even, what is the RIGHT thing? All the question is here. As you mentioned here, this population is not yet politically mature. So as long as this population hasn't  politically grown up, everybody should just wait to see, what is the best thing for them. Only then, we(all the people) can deduct which shape of a democratic government is the best to be installed for Iran....

And yes, of course this is all about the "popularity"....

The whole politic concept is about the Popularity! Show me one successful leader (or theoretician) who came to the absolute power, without being popular among a majority of supporters?

VPK jan

I would just add that Reza Pahlavi has tried earnestly to be open and accepted by Iranians from all sectors of society. However, he has not shaken off the image of elitism amongst some of his followers.

He should get himself a PR man to try and sell the monarchy for the people and the image of a 'peole's King'. A sovereign truly at the service of his people. I believe this is where the MEK has leverage because it has gone from a band of looney Left wing marxists and appearing to become an eclectic organisation attracting support from artists, the borgeois and 'intellectuals'. However, behind the clever publicity stunt Maryam Rajavi and her Hijab says everyting. Nerverhteless, the MEK will grow and unfortunately it will continue to attract support because they are the only party who is promising to carry out any action. The Saddam years are over and many Iranians will throw their lot in with them because they are sick of talk. You have had thirty years of talk in the media, tvs and radios but what are you going to do about it? You don;t support sanctions and you don't support action. 

The worse the human rights situation in Iran becomes, the more desperate people will come and they will be prepared to side with anyone ANYONE who proposes serious practical solutions. 

Souri

I think you are projecting your *own* point of view. Just because YOU feel a particular way about Islam does not mean others do the same.

What is "pro-Islamic" anyway? Many people in Iran are Muslim. But most of them hate IRI.  Living under IRI has a way of getting people to hate Mollahs. If Iranians are so "Islamic" then why do Iranians take off the hijab as soon as they step outside of IRR control? Why do half Iranian Americans leave Islam? Who do a large number of remaining "Muslims" never practice it? Why do I never hear of any Iranian I know pray 5 times a day or fast? Why do Iranians not go to Masjid?

In addition Simorgh already explained why the generation change is actually good for secularism. It was the 60 generation which were the morons and thank god are now a minority. The hate for Shah is over rated mostly by leftist 60's left overs.

Sure RP should not declare war on Islam that is obvious. But he should take action  to become the leader of anti-IRI faction. Better him than the Ravajis. He is sane and decent which is more than I say about many others.

Honestly I wonder why do you alway "nay say" whenever someone opposes iRI. Would you please enlighten me? I like people to be honest with their agenda. Not pretend to take one side whilst always arguing the other way.

Let us

not get ahead of ourselves Kharmagas jan :-)As Simorgh said the throne must be earne; it should not be given.

Anyway, I am not sure if Iranian people really want Monarchy. Even if they did want it I am not sure they will pick RP. In practice RP while sane and reasonable has not done enough to earn his position. Plus he has his father's legacy to deal with. I like him but he better get off his rear end if he wants to matter.

My guess is that people want a nationalistic leader not so much a king. The Green leadership has failed to get do anything. Mousavi and Karrubi are just not up to the job. Therefore leadership of Iran is up for grabs.

PS, RP has publicly opposed an attack on Iran under *any* circumstance. It is in the videos on this blog:

//iranian.com/main/2010/nov/reza-pahlavi

RP has lots of good qualities. However he is too passive. You cannot sit back and expect the crown to come and find you! Got to act.

Souri Khanom

Hmmmm. I am not sure whether I entirely agree that most Iranians are pro-Islamic. The demonstrations last year seem to suggest otherwise. You have to also remember that 70 % of the population of Iran are under 30 and therefore do not share the religious ferver and, dare I say, sheer stupidity of their parents generation. I am not convinced half the under 30s poupulation prayer or even observe religious festivals. They may not have a favourable impression of Shah  Mohammed Reza Pahlavi but that doesn't mean they have a one iota of love for the current system. I think the Iranians are more of blank canvas.

I would admit, however, that the nuclear issue has been used to exploit nationalist sentimantality by the Islamist Terrorist occupiers but even this argument is becoming worn out. They have nothing to draw support among the public other than the donkeys who are paid and cattle drawn to the Friday prayer sermons chanting 'Death to America'.

For my self, Souri, as incredibly arrogant as this sounds, I am beyonf caring what the Iranian people think anymore. I love the warmth and hospitality of Iranians but politcally they are immature. They are easily manipulated and come into the streets in favour of Mossadegh, then against Mossadegh, then Khomeini and then Ahmadinejad  Mousavi and then whoever is the next charlatan who promises a cure for their hopeless desperation. They do not know who their frends are and they don't know who their enemies are. 

Reza Pahlavi should do the right thing. This is not a popularity contest. They will love you and then hate you the next day. Free Iran even if the people are too stupid to believe it is in their own interest. 

So far, he is the one with the best approach

The Islamic Republic of Iran, has still millions of Iranians supporters. The majority of the population is Muslim and even pro-Islamic.The worse thing RP might do is to declare war to the IRI and makes himself known an anti-Islam movement's leader.

In all analysis and declaration, you must always think and see the whole things from the eye of an Iranian, inside the country. Especially the almost younger generation. The average 30/40 who don't know RP but have heard horrible things about  his father, sufficiently to oppose themselves to all kind of Monarchism. Be more objective. Don't analyze the situation from a West Resident opponant side. You will fail.

Its interesting because I

Its interesting because I do not necessasrily accept hereditary right to the throne. As the Shahnameh demonstrates you must earn your right to become the Shah. The position of Shah must not become taken for granted. When the Qajars were on the verge of destroying Iran it was perfectly justified for Reza Khan to dethrone Ahmad Shah and replace him.

I respect Reza Phalavi as a symbol of the monarchy and his heart is in the right place. But passive resistance to the Mullahs is not enough and civil disobedience cannot change this rotten regime. It is not an easy call for Crown Prince Reza to make and to advocate military resistence to the Mullahs will seem like political suicide but there is no choice left. He himself knows it. He must make the difficult step and call for the establishment of an Iranian resistance army. This is the reason why the MKO have been making successful gains and it is the best organsied opposition movement. 

Cown Prince Reza must emulate their organisation and strtegic planning in order to succeed. The money is there. I am sure Shahzadeh has the funds but what is missing?  

The crown of the Iran is for the taking and maybe Shahzadeh does not want it. Nevertheless, as an opposition leader he must fight the beasts which have raped and destroyed Iran. 

How about VPK for Shah?

Simorgh, among you  monarchists VPK is a good-natured guy. Why don't you guys find him and make him a Shah?

It certainly is amusing!

Either we fight them or others such as the MEK will get there first. Words are not enough

LOL. Trust me, many Iranians would love to know if the clown prince would publically advocate the bombing and killing Iranians (like Simorgh does), but we know he doesn't even have that kind of orzeh.

Amusing

Amusing

Prince answers to His humble subject

Land is too far, throne too high

I know not you, but I'm in my fi*

You take half of your birds to fly

Leave the rest for my dinner, fry

* Fi rhymes with eye, which means fifty.