Stephen Kinzer

Do not delete

Aynak:My Response to you was also removed. Your behavior is typical of people   I call a "laAt", hence, you're not worthy of my time or attention.

 Calling my idea stoopid by a someone who had been endorsing the IRI up until last year before the 2009, does not really surprise me.

 At any rate, as I said in the previous post, my time is much more valuable to debate an ex-lackey of the regime.

How bizarre. Ex-reformer defending the CIA?

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2cMG33mWVY

 I'm sure this is not going to posted either.

Dirty: You made me think of

Dirty: You made me think of the Pubs Landlord

Ali Mostofi

//www.alimostofi.com

Alimostofi, wha' was tha'?

 Obviously, that sort of "democracy" requires a head.

Preserved, pickled kaleh pacheh.

"If they chew you up, they still have to spit you out "

To Aynak and others who put

To Aynak and others who put politics above Iran. How do you intend to preserve the culture of Iran in the name of democracy if an elected government decided to ban Shahnameh, or rename Damavand? Are you going to call me a Shaholahi? Try me.

Ali Mostofi

//www.alimostofi.com

And I got censored! I'll rephrase :)

I replied to the post:

How could we believe  the CIA account of the coup in 1953 on their own manufactured coup?? Do you think CIA tells you the truth?

All of sudden the CIA has become our gospel??? why?   

I don't trust the CIA?? Do you?  "

And my response was deleted.  Amazing!   Just so that whoever did that  knows the difference between, "editing" and "censorship".

If I call someone stupid in a post, and its removed, it is editing and acceptable.

If I call someone's idea stupid, and its removed, it is censorship.

Now, vildemose, what portion of CIA's documents do you find unbelievable?  (We will walk vildemose through this painful and embarassing exercise to see, if my removed post  was edited or censored).

May we all have good dreams.

...

if ed mc mahn was able and allowed to sell magazine subscription to the iranian back in the 70's we wouldn't be reading mr.kinzer's... in belad al kofr !!    

thanks mr.ferdows.           Maziar

How could we believe  the

How could we believe  the CIA account of the coup in 1953 on their own manufactured coup?? Do you think CIA tells you the truth?

All of sudden the CIA has become our gospel??? why?   

I don't trust the CIA?? Do you?                                 

The truth lies somewhere in the middle after gatheing information from variety of sources who don't have a vested interest in shaping their own narrative.

             The Truth is like a broken mirror and everyone holding a piece of that mirror believes he/she is holding the Truth.                   

A Question of Numbers

A Question of Numbers by Emad Baghi   ""Rumours, exaggerated claims by the leaders of the Islamic revolution and a disinformation campaign against the fallen monarchy, not to mention Western media reports that the imperial regime was guilty of "mass murders", has finally been challenged by a former researcher at the Martyrs Foundation (Bonyad Shahid). The findings by Emad al-Din Baghi, now a respected historian, has caused a stir in the Islamic republic for it boldly questions the true number of casualties suffered by the anti-Shah movement between 1963 and 1979.

In the aftermath of the fall of the Pahlavi dynasty in 1979, Ayatollah Khomeini, the leader of the Islamic revolution, ordered the creation of the Martyrs Foundation with the sole purpose of identifying the names of the so-called "martyrs" and provide financial support for their families as well as those who had sustained injuries in the fierce street battles with royalist troops. The necessary funds were immediately raised from the assets seized from the high officials in the Shah's regime, many of whom had been executed after summary trials. ...""

//www.emadbaghi.com/en/archives/000592.php

The Great Satan

//www.tnr.com/article/world/the-great-satan-myth

Abbas Milani on his new book "The Shah"

//www.amazon.com/Shah-Abbas-Milani/dp/1403971935

one more note

am on Shahzadeh Reza Pahlavi's payroll! and willing to share the loot with any of you!

Mr. Kinser: Have you ever

Mr. Kinser: Have you ever read the book by William Engdhal?
"A century of War"

.A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order [Paperback

//www.amazon.com/Century-War-Anglo-American-Politics-World/dp/074532309X

"In November 1978, President Carter named the Bilderberg group's George Ball, another member of the Trilateral Commission, to head a special White House Iran task force under the National Security Council's Brzezinski.  Ball recommended that Washington drop support for the Shah of Iran and support the fundamentalistic Islamic opposition of Ayatollah Khomeini.  Robert Bowie from the CIA was one of the lead 'case officers' in the new CIA-led coup against the man their covert actions had placed into power 25 years earlier.

The coup against the Shah, like that against Mossadegh in 1953, was run by British and American intelligence, with the bombastic American, Brzezinski, taking public 'credit' for getting rid of the 'corrupt' Shah, while the British characteristically remained safely in the background.  During 1978, negotiations were under way between the Shah's government and British Petroleum for renewal of the 25-year old extraction agreement.  By October 1978, the talks had collapsed over a British 'offer' which demanded exclusive rights to Iran's future oil output, while refusing to guarantee purchase of the oil.  With their dependence on British-controlled export apparently at an end, Iran appeared on the verge of independence in its oil sales policy for the first time since 1953, with eager prospective buyers in Germany, France, Japan and elsewhere.  In its lead editorial that September, Iran's Kayhan International stated: .... London was blackmailing and putting enormous economic pressure on the Shah's regime by refusing to buy Iranian oil production, taking only 3 million or so barrels daily of an agreed minimum of 5 million barrels per day.  This imposed dramatic revenue pressures on Iran, which provided the context in which religious discontent against the Shah could be fanned by trained agitators deployed by British and U.S. intelligence.  In addition, strikes among oil workers at this critical juncture crippled Iranian oil production. As Iran's domestic economic troubles grew, American 'security' advisers to the Shah's Savak secret police implemented a policy of ever more brutal repression, in a manner calculated to maximize popular antipathy to the Shah.  At the same time, the Carter administration cynically began protesting abuses of 'human rights' under the Shah. British Petroleum reportedly began to organize capital flight out of Iran, through its strong influence in Iran's financial and banking community.  The British Broadcasting Corporation's Persian-language broadcasts, with dozens of Persian-speaking BBC 'correspondents' sent into even the smallest village, drummed up hysteria against the Shah.  The BBC gave Ayatollah Khomeini a full propaganda platform inside Iran during this time.  The British government-owned broadcasting organization refused to give the Shah's government an equal chance to reply.  Repeated personal appeals from the Shah to the BBC yielded no result.  Anglo-American intelligence was committed to toppling the Shah.  The Shah fled in January, and by February 1979, Khomeini had been flown into Tehran to proclaim the establishment of his repressive theocratic state to replace the Shah's government.  Reflecting on his downfall months later, shortly before his death, the Shah noted from exile, 

I did not know it then - perhaps I did not want to know - but it is clear to me now that the Americans wanted me out.  Clearly this is what the human rights advocates in the State Department wanted ... What was I to make of the Administration's sudden decision to call former Under Secretary of State George Ball to the White House as an adviser on Iran? ... Ball was among those Americans who wanted to abandon me and ultimately my country.[1][1]...the rest below:

 //www.payvand.com/news/06/mar/1090.html The author is still alive and his website is below. Check him out. //www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/

A Tag team contest?

stupid is what stupid does, take responsibility for your own "friggin" actions, just for once, past or present, then you'r entitled to lecture others in what ever you are good at ...

Aynak, vaghean keh

 Don't you know that it was foreign agents who created a revolution in utopian Eldorado? There we were merrily dancing and celebrating in poppy fields, and some nasty foreign agents gate-crashed our party!

Thanks for your posts, Aynak. I don't have your patience with the psychos. All reminds me of a chapter in The Good Soldier Svejk, set  in a  lunatic asylum full of characters, and I shan't spoil it for those who haven't read the book, but there is even one who thinks he is an encyclopedia and goes around demanding to be opened. 

At this rate, the next regime worshippers will conscribe to a pink aftabeh with rays of lilac miniatures. Hail Aftab-e Aftabeh! Hail!

"If they chew you up, they still have to spit you out "

Re: Milani

Of course, Milani is the one who has recently said the Shah killed "only" 1500 during his tenure, Khomeyni 4000 in one go! It wouldn't be surprising if it came from one of our (stupid) 24 hr/day on-call Shahollahis, but from a historian...

Try Dr. Milani's points of view instead

I am sure we need more people like that of Mr. Milani

.

Great Response Mr. Kinzer and Aynak

Very good points you have both made. Monarchists, just like the Mullah clan, have their own sets of facts about Iranian history which differs from everything that is generally accepted by the rest of the world. I couldnt be any more in agreement with your statements.

Great RESPONSE Aynak!

The Shahollalis/ Hezbollahis crowd, is the most self-indulgent that one can IMAGINE!   They can easily sacrifice ALL, i.e. country, family and everything else, for self-grandeur, or AGRODOISEMENT, ignoring everyone else, stepping on everyone, so long as “they” can live in comfort and LUXURY….case and point is/was their steamed leader Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, THE GREAT TRAITOR!    

Their selfishness has no boundaries, and as you correctly mentioned, all they know is how to bend, even CRAWL, so long as they don’t have to do any heavy lifting, like WORK, while CHAPLOOSIE is their tool of the trade,  FREE LAODING is their GOAL.

When you have deep admiration or fantasies for sadistic psychopathic murders like Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Khomeini, Stalin, Hitler or Sadam Hussein, than there is something VERY wrong!

History can NOT be rewritten, especially that of the recent past!   Pages of history are written in stone and we are going to come across more Pahlavi TREASONS, I am sure, as more documents are declassified either by the CIA or MI6 or both!    

Let’s HOPE for a GREAT Iranian DEMOCROCY, Mossadegh like, and a GREATER FUTURE!

Sohrab_Ferdows

Sohrab_Ferdows writes:
----One may ask what makes you an expert to decide who among Iranians is/was a democrat and who is/was not? -----

Oh, we don't need Mr.Kinzer's expertise here, do we?
Who is a democrat?
He who does not torture and kill political opposition
He who does not censor newspapers
He who does not declare the country a single party system over night

He who does not murder/exile/torture the main forces behind nationalizing Iran's oil

He who does not sign consortium deal ..............

.........
Sohrab_Ferdows writes:
You wrote: ----The crimes of this current regime, however, have the opposite effect on some people; they detest the Shah more than ever because they blame him for creating the conditions in which such a regime could come to power." and my question would be: since when opinions of "some people" reflect what a society thinks as a whole?  and my question would be: since when opinions of "some people" reflect what a society thinks as a whole? -----

Baba Aberooyeh ma-ro keh bordy.   Do you even read what you write?   Kinzer already said "some people".   4 out of 5 responses on this thread already indicate that "some" are in full agreement with Kinzer.   Where did Kinzer say the whole socieity?    I encourage you to learn basic reasoning.   Take night classes, do some good for yourself.
The rest of your long write up, is as well "reasoned" and "rational" as the two above.  Put this into your head:  Iran is ready for democracy, accountable government, all citizens with same rights!   Time of privilaged Molla and Shah is over.   Get a job.   Bowing and bending to another despot will not get you a job.  Have  self respect.   A dignitied and  free human needs no Shah or Valeeh Safeeh.

Long Live, free democratic Iran, Iran for all Iranian.

May we all have good dreams.

Great comment by aynak

That sums it up pretty well.

But I wonder why are we still talking about Shah and his family.  This family is providing a dream for a very small group of folks and let them stay in their dream. 

Mehrdad

"Some words about Mr.

From: //iranian.com/main/2011/feb/low-point

by Sohrab_Ferdows on Wed Feb 09, 2011 05:50 PM PST

It is really amazing to see that someone who wishes to portray himself as an expert in the political affairs of another nation during 1950's can make such judgments based on a single fishy document from fishy sources. One may ask what makes you an expert to decide who among Iranians is/was a democrat and who is/was not? what is the basis of your information other than that fabricated and fraudulent document which has been sold as a real story by the paper that you work for? Is this what you have been told by some of your Iranian friends who admire you for publishing their favorable story? You don't seem to have much information neither about Shah nor Mosadegh and that makes one wonder why such person with such poor knowledge about a subject can come up with such assertive positions and statements? I understand that you work for a paper which its association with Democratic party of United States (in an internal battle over power) is more than obvious and anything that promotes your so called democratic agenda among Iranian community in USA is a legitimate thing to do from that view point but, please don't pretend that you are writing history or doing a favor to democratic movements of other people. As you mentioned, anyone is entitled to his or her view of each man's legacy but that is only one person's view and nothing more.

You wrote: "The crimes of this current regime, however, have the opposite effect on some people; they detest the Shah more than ever because they blame him for creating the conditions in which such a regime could come to power." and my question would be: since when opinions of "some people" reflect what a society thinks as a whole? Who were those "some people" and how many of them have you met? And then you admit that "Weighing the reputations of historical figures is a complex and subtle challenge." right after you pass your judgment based on "some people" as you claimed? How realistic are these views? Not much further down you come up with another amazing statement about late Prince Alireza Pahlavi that "His background made him a figure of public interest, .." and by claiming that "the prince was entirely blameless for any of his family's misdeeds" make it clear that you felt appropriate to target the death of Prince Alireza Pahlavi as a legitimate subject to fill your column with some opinionated materials about someone whom you did not even know just because, in your view, his family had some "misdeeds"! No wonder if American people are getting more disappointed in their mainstream media everyday and prefer alternative sources (even Aljazeera or some unknown web based publishing will do).

The statement that "The fact that the Pahlavi family was so deeply intertwined with the United States for so long makes it especially fascinating to Americans." is a clear indication of lack of information or intentional spreading of misinformation by the author. There is an ample amount of evidences in recently declassified documents of US government to indicate that the opposite of that statement is true. US government had a lot of concerns about relations between Iranian government with former Soviet Union during 1960's and 1970's which are reflected in their communication documents between American Embassy, State Department, CIA and White House. US government refused selling AWAX system to Iran during 1970's and with the excuse that the debate in US Senate on that matter had not been concluded yet. This matter was dragged until late Shah informed US Ambassador that he was no longer interested in buying AWAX systems from USA and would go to other sources. It was just then that US government agreed to sell those systems to Iran which of course, was never delivered. The examples of this sort in relations between Iranian government during late Shah and the US administrations are plenty. Refusal of buying oil directly from Iran in exchange for American goods is another one which would serve the big oil corporations rather than US tax payers. Iran did not receive a penny from US government since early 1960's and had no obligation to follow their agenda and advice on any issue. That in fact was the most important source of bitterness and disappointment of all American administrations (Dems and Reps alike) towards late Shah.

America's sins have nothing to do with Iran, Shah or any other Iranian. American sins come from those who try to put their nose in the business of others through trickery and deception under guise of promoting democracy while spreading false information. I do not trust you sir! You are an American and whatever agenda you might have is definitely far from being holy. I never trust and believe an American who put himself among revolutionaries of another nation as a "freelance journalist", at the age of 25-26, and give advice to those revolutionaries just for the sake promoting democracy. that is too much of fantasy for me.

Mr. Kinser, you should be forever so grateful to Pahlavi family for making you a famous pseduo-journalist.

LOL Aynak

Damet garm and thanks.

Great to see Stephen Kinzer reply!

That made me feel good!
I was getting ready to get in the debate and was only withholding... : )
And once again, I agree wholeheartedly with aynak. All hope is not lost!

Great response Mr. Kinzer!

Problem is that the Shahollahis, in general, like nothing more than to REWRITE the past history.  

In Mr. Atabai’s one sided article he claimed that “Shah was in sync with Mossadegh in nationalization of the oil industry”.   What he, conveniently, forgot is the fact that this TRAITOR than took side with the CIA and MI6 in a coup against his own people to make sure that nationalization would not have its original affect, by neutralizing it!  

He also forgot to disclose his source of income, which is the salary paid by Farah Diba, coming from the STOLEN EMBEZZELED Pahlavi loot.  

Prof. Kazemzadeh had organized his meticulous response by "EVEN" itemizing them for the Shahollah/Hezbollah crowd, but even  that had fallen on deaf ears, as USUAL.

These folks, to justify their beliefs, have become STRONG believers of RELATIVISM…and that is how they RATIONALIZE or justify the murderous ACTS of the BLOODY Pahlavi regime!   It is like saying that Genghis Khan was a great humanitarian in comparison to Hitler or Stalin, not realizing that the intent of these human monsters was the same!   And the same would be TRUE comparing the Pahlavi to Khomeini regime!      

Your article and your response were quite fair and balance, and Thank You!    

Re:Reply to Kambiz Atabai

"The tragedy that has enveloped Iran in recent years may have made it
possible to view the reign of Mohammad Reza Shah more positively. No
doubt his excesses pale before those of the mullahs' regime. The crimes
of this current regime, however, have the opposite effect on some
people; they detest the Shah more than ever because they blame him for
creating the conditions in which such a regime could come to power."

Very well framed.   Unfortunately, you are trying to reason with monarchists, who have in their illusion, created a parallel universe to the facts and the reality.   In this universe:

- 1953 Coup, was a national uprising!!

- Cooperation of Shah and Kashani (white and black) to bring down the national secular and democratic government of Mossadegh,  was the Right of the Shah

- 1979 Revolution, was a foreign instigated mayhem

- 1979 Revolution took place, because the  unappreciative  people of Iran did not know how good they had it

- It was ok for U.S to bring Shah to power, but it was not OK for U.S to ask Shah to make reforms or ask him to step down, when he was so unpopular.

Of course, by extension, these folks are ademant that we need another Monarchy system, to replace the current Monarchy ruling Iran, to bring back the good old days of Monarchy :)

It is very hard to reason with our monarchists Mr.Kinzer, as that's is not really their forte.

On a more serious note: there are still documents from 1953 that was supposed to be available that are not.  Do you have any information on when/if those will ever become available?

May we all have good dreams.

Thanks Stephen 4 a well balanced response

.